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tv   Washington Journal Hannibal Johnson  CSPAN  February 22, 2024 12:25am-12:56am EST

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administration's handling of the aids epidemic. >> there are people who think that my father did not care about gay people or that he was homophobic, which was not true. i wanted to bring in other aspects in terms of people in his administration who were homophobic and did not want him to address the aids issue. and who kept things from him, because one of my father's flaws -- we all have flaws, was he delegated to other people and believed what they told him. so when rock hudson died, nobody could keep from him the severity of aids. his friend just died from it. and that was the turning point. >> patty davis with her book sunday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span's q and a. listen to our podcasts on our
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free c-span now app. throughout black history month, we spend time focusing on several aspects of effort written history. once again, we are joined by hannibal johnson, the author of "black wall street 100." hannibal johnson, what and where was black wall street for viewers who may not know? guest: black wall street is the historic african-american community in tulsa, oklahoma, created during any era of segregation around 1906. it is a neighborhood within the context of the city of tulsa. host: what happened in that neighborhood 103 years ago? guest: the neighbors refer to it as black wall street because of the incredible black entrepreneurship and commerce that existed within the community. a plethora of business
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establishments, a group of black professionals, doctors, lawyers, dentists, contests -- accountants occupied this blackberry in tulsa. it was separated from downtown tulsa by the tracks. many people may be aware of the calamity that occurred here in 1921 referred to as the 1921 tulsa race massacre when the black community was almost obliterated in this mob frenzy of racialized violence. host: how many people died and tart the violence? guest: some experts believe between 100 and 300 people were killed in the massacre. hundreds more were injured. scores of homes and businesses were destroyed. at least 1250 private homes were
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destroyed during the massacre. the causes of the massacre are many and varied. it is important to understand the context. racial violence was occurring throughout the u.s. during this period. two years prior, james johnson referred to pop the summer as red summer. fred was a metaphorical reference to the blood that flowed in america's streets because of racial violence. the other thing happening throughout the u.s. during this period is lynching, a form of the mystic terrorism aimed primarily at african-americans. we have this racial crucible that exists throughout the u.s. answer to the existence in tulsa. in tulsa, we have a prosperous black community, really sitting on land that was desired by
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white leadership in the community for railroad purposes and other commercial purposes. we have jealousy of the white community with respect to the black community. this was a period when the eddy elegy of white super missy reigned supreme. to have these black people owning homes, driving cars, wearing beautiful clothes was unacceptable in the minds of some folks. people are generally familiar with the ku klux klan which had an enormous presence in the 1920's. that was a factor. add to the mix the media and in particular one local media outlet, he did the afternoon newspaper called the tulsa tribune. we have this tinderbox or powder cake in tulsa needing only some catalyst to ignite the racial
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violence that occurred on may 31 and june 1 of 1921. host: the tulsa world earlier this month, especially for john black history month, notable oklahomans and state history. you mentioned -- you are mentioned of one of the notable oklahomans for your work on researching and writing about the tulsa race massacre. they write your work has played a role in bringing attention to a subject long ignored with over 100 people dead, 1000 buildings destroyed, this massacre that happened. how does something like that get to be ignored? guest: it is ignored as a deliberate decision on the part of people who are in power and occupy positions of privilege. tulsa, when the massacre
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occurred in 1921 was on an upward trajectory. it became known as the oil capital of the world. a lot of folks in tulsa, particularly in white also adership wanted to minimize the tragedy of the massacre and varnishing the reputation of the city of tulsa. for that reason, it was swept under the carpet. in the black community, we have to think about ptsd. that is part of the reason in the black community the massacre was not discussed and minimized if it was discussed. the people empowered to create curricula for our schools made the deliberate decision not to include that as part of what oklahomans learn about oklahoma history. for decades, this history was
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largely kept under wraps. host: when did we first get the term tulsa race massacre? when was that incident referred to with those words? caller: wendy is -- guest: when this incident occurred, these were referred to as race riots. in the last 10 years or so, there is a movement within the like community to take charge of nomenclature, to change the name to something many people believed to be a better descriptor of what happened. from riot to massacre. we can talk about what other terms might be used to describe this event. for me personally, i tell people that critical thinking around nomenclature is important to me. it is not what you settle on, it is that you understand different words have different
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connotations and naming something is an important element of claiming that event. host: a few of hannibal johnson's works, "black wall street 100." he is with us this morning until 10:00 a.m. eastern as part of this week's series focusing on black history month. you can join the conversation originally. if you're in the central or eastern time zone, it is 202-748-8000. if you are in the mountain or pacific time zone, it is 202-748-8001. perhaps we will get it also resident to call in during the segment. who is viola fletcher? guest: viola fletcher is one of the living individuals who was alive at the time of the
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massacre in 1921. host: ali today and has testified before congress about the tulsa race massacre. i want to play viewers a minute or so of her testimony back in may 2021 around the 100th anniversary of the tulsa race massacre. >> the city of tulsa and the chamber of commerce told us the massacre didn't happen, like we did not see it with our own eyes . you have me here right now, you see my brother. we lived this history and we cannot ignore it. it is our lives with us. we lost everything that day, our homes, our churches, our newspapers, our theaters.
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what represented all of what was best for black people in america and for all of the people. no one cared about us for almost 100 years. we and our history have been forgotten, washed away. this congress must recognize us and our history. for black america, for the white americans, and all americans. host: that happened in may 2021. what does that testimony represent and what was ms. fletcher asking of congress that they? guest: it is important to hear the voices of people who lived three events like the tulsa race massacre. we now have the black wall street history center which includes voices of many of the
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individuals who were alive during the period of the massacre. they gave testimony to a state convened commission that meant from 1997 to 2001 and their audio was recorded. we use some of their testimony in presenting information about the massacre in the context of the museum. those voices are important to help us understand what transpired and how it affected real people in real time during those events. host: ms. fletcher announced last year she was going to release in memoir that's going to release a memoir on her expenses with this topic. has she done that? guest: she has. host: have you read that? guest: i have not gotten a chance to read it. i talked to a number of
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survivors back when there were more than 100 survivors living. talking to them, what i discovered what they wanted more than anything else is to have their storyd, to make sure pele uerstand what happens to them in part so that such an event never happens again. host: who was event ellis? guest: he was one of the three individuals who had a legal suit against the city and others on appeal right now. he died within the last two or three months. host: we are talking about because of race massacre. its memory, its impact not just in tulsa but in this country today. phone lines are split regionally if you want to join the conversation.
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hannibal johnson, the author of several subjects on this topic. up first active though and, maryland. the shout of the first step -- the first up out of boone, maryland. caller: client disturb listing today to the callers before -- i am disturbed to today listening to the college before. a lot of people don't understand the impact of the violence and bloodshed by black people in this country. to me, they don't want to understand. it is the antithesis of what has happened to black people. i was talking to my mother yesterday about my great-grandmother. i was six or seven years old when she said to me -- i am 53
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years old now. she said to me that she remembers when white men dragged a black man to the streets behind horse carts. i was six years old. i didn't understand horse carts. i need to get people to understand that these older people who went through and saw all these tragic things, she also talked about black people being tarred and feathered and hung and burned. people don't get it, they don't understand it. these people went through such tragic things. i believe my great-grandmother was getting me ready for this reality that black people live even today. that is all i have to say. people don't understand it and
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they don't understand that we need compensation. these people lost property, lives, lab hoods -- livelihoods, generational wealth. it angers me to the point of what is america doing? host: that is erica in buoy, maryland. guest: she makes a number of important points. one point is that teaching our real history, a people's history of the united states is imperative. we cannot possibly understand why we have the racial dynamics we have today if we do not understand our history. another point is about the legacy of these horrific periods in our history, like the period during which the massacre
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occurred in pool-side in 1921. sociologists refer to that as their lowest point of racial relations in america because of lynchings and these race riots and the jim crow era. the historical racial trauma and embedded in the history of our country has to be acknowledged and has to be addressed if we are never to realize our full potential -- ever to realize our full potential. powerful potential can only be realized if we validate and leverage the shared humanity that exists in each and every one of us. host: you mentioned a people's history, reminiscent of the book . it came out in 2009.
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what is a people's history? guest: a people's history is a recognition that there are multiple narratives and multiple dimensions of our history. history is not simply the dominant culture's version of events. history involves a multiplicity of voices, a mosaic of different experiences. if we can understand that and we can make sure that approach is the way we construct our curricula, we will be better off having known the stories, the various strands of our history that contributes to the whole. host: in texas, this is jim. caller: visit two days in a row we have had great guests.
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one of the things that mr. woodson remarked on was the black on black homicide taking anyone here as many lives as a civil rights. i'm curious as two things. do you think the condition of black communities, the highlight of black on black homicide, do think that is linked to events in tulsa? the story of pulse is a tragedy. nobody would say differently would the story should be told so these things don't repeat. i don't know how often in recent history that kind of event has repeated. my question is if you were to
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write the history -- black on black homicide,, little bit about what he would highlight? -- tell me a little bit about what you would highlight? guest: i do a lot of work with the police here and it also and i have over a decade, building a better relationship between the police and the various constituent communities the police serve. i don't think in terms of black on black crime. specifically mentioning homicides, homicide usually is a crime that involves people in close proximity to one another, people who know one another. we can talk about hispanic crime
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. it is an approximate kind of occurrence. one of the things you raise is this idea that ecologists -- sociologists call internalized oppression. sometimes oppressed people pick up on the negative self-evaluation that comes in a racialized society. if you are a person who devalues himself or herself, it is in some ways easier to engage in violence against people who are like you. that is a psychological dynamic that happens in society in which
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ritualization is a huge factor. host: coming back to viola fletcher's testimony before congress and a forgotten tragedy, where there other forgotten massacres on the level of tulsa that happened in the u.s.? guest: there are a number of historical racial tragedies that occurred throughout the u.s. in 1919, in elaine, arkansas, a so-called right. longview, texas. any outbreak in baltimore, washington, d.c., memphis, more than 24 major so-called race riots in america in 1919. most of our listeners -- i guess most of our listeners are unaware of those occurrences.
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one of the callers referred to a horrific lynching she was told about. these lynchings that occurred, this violence on african-americans, these were often hangings, sometimes burnings, mutilations, castration's. these were public spectacles and children often witnessed this violence. let me tell you one of the lynchings that occurred, it occurred here in oklahoma in 1911. it was imaging of a woman named laura nelson and her son. they were lynched from a bridge, postcards were made of the lynching, children witnessed the
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lynching, including a young woody guthrie. host: what did they do with postcards? guest: this serves the surface -- the purpose postcards serve, they were sent to friends and relatives around the country celebrating the fact that the offender had done these events. host: perry in atlanta, georgia. caller: mr. johnson, thank you for being with us. i have a question to ask, but first i need to say that i'm disappointed about the gentleman from texas talking about black homicide. you usually tell people to stick to the topic and that is not the topic. the topic is about tulsa.
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there's also the rosewood incident for people who don't know about that. imagine postcards, there were postcards at the tolson incident also. i want to know if there was an investigation done by the bureau of investigation before it became the fbi. i ask that because i watched the movie "killers of the flower mood -- flower moon." that happens around the same time as the total race rights. the bureau came out to investigate the killings of native americans. i wonder if there is an investigation done by the federal government and if there was a cause for reparations, this is a cause. thank you very much.
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you can actually see the few ditch -- the footage of the riots and you can see there were plans -- planes flying over dropping cans of gasoline. it was awful. the footage is on youtube, several documentaries you can see. i urge everybody to go out there and look at these so you can see this is documented about what happened and it was atrocious. host: mr. johnson? guest: i don't know of any investigation by the fbi. the most thorough investigation came years later with the convening of the oklahoma commission to study the tulsa race riot of 1921. a statewide body was convened.
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it is available online at the website. that was a thorough evaluation of all of the situation leading up to the massacre and the massacre itself. the charge was to make recommendations with regard to reparations. the commission recommended five different types of reparations, payments to survivors and there were 100 or more living survivors. payments to areas of survivors who could document property loss , the establishment of a scholarship fund benefiting descendants of those who suffered during the massacre. economic development incentives for redevelopment in the black community and some substantial monument or memorial.
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those are the types that were recommended by the statewide commission. host: what came of those five recommendations? guest: there were never any tax payments made. there was these devilish bit of a scholarship fund. -- the establishment of a scholarship fund. it was brought into in memory to and attributed to the massacre but not limited to the descendants of the massacre. there was a body said to look at -- set up to look at economic development within the black wall street community but that was not funded so nothing ever came of that. the state did in fact invest a small about of money come around 1.5 to two in dollars in decree patient -- the creation of a park that memorializes the massacre and survivors and the history surrounding the
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massacre. host: north carolina, this is howard. caller: good morning. i appreciate the truth of what is happening in america back then and now. there is a scripture in the bible, i am not going to deviate from the topic but the scripture in the bible. you can go to oppose it chapter four, verse six. there is a gentleman who said black on black crime -- i'm not going to divert from it. my black brothers and sisters are getting guns like candy. i know there's no black mini factor of -- it can only lead to one person. this is my question. i know donald went to tulsa a few years back.
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it brought more recognition to the topic of what is happening. you know january 6, that same act was upon our country. they call it a right, but it was an insurrection. even in tulsa it was an insurrection, a coup to take over that government to establish their own government. one gentleman said is there any correlation of the history. maybe that might answer his question. it was done the same way. host: host: i will let you jump in. guest: one of the interesting things about the massacre is that we know law enforcement deputized some of the white men in the mob that invaded and destroyed lee greenwood
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community. that official sanction of the violence really resonates given what you said about insurrection on january 6. >> t spans washington journal, our live forum involving you to discuss the latest issues in government, politics and public policy. thursday morning, the founder of the center-right group principles first discusses campaign 2024 and the group's summit this weekend aimed at rivaling the conservative political action conference. and featuring prominent critics of former president trump. then a professor talks about the debate over the teaching of black history and the issue of reparations. join in the conversation live at 7:00 eastern thursday morning on
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c-span. c-span now, our free mobile video app. more online at c-span.org. >> be up-to-date in the latest in publishing with book tv's podcasts about books. with current nonfiction book releases, plus, bestseller lists as well as industry news and insider interviews. find on c-span now, or wherever you get your podcasts. >> coming up, bonnie jenkins, u.s. under secretary of state for arms control and international security. she participated in a conversation about african-american leadership in foreign policy. she offers advice for aspiring foreign policy professionals. this event was hosted by the atlantic council. ♪ u.s.

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