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jacoby with pbs frontline, director of many documentaries. his latest, crisis on campus taking a look at the last several months on college campuses. thanks for the joining us again. ■ guest: pleasure for having me. host: what a look at this? guest: we are working with partners at a nonprofit news right after october 7. we really started shooting this in the wake of the october 7 hamas attack and then as this dt movement has developed on campus, we had no idea that it would culminate as it has with the end of the school year and crashes withg: police and schoo,

presidents having to testify in front of congress. it's been quite a wild story. host: if you had to take a look at it in retrospect, what do you think the increase is coming from? what do you think of the main driver? guest: i think there's a number of factors here. one is generational. i think the sixth -- this generation of students is activated about this war for lotsf different reasons. i think social media plays a big role in that.but one of the maie focus on in the film is the convergence of outside forces that are looking to sort of project a narrative here. whether it be pro-israel or pro-palestinian or political forces or political activists with various different agendas, we've found that in our reporting, with everyone looking to set the narrative here, that

has created this kind of tempest that we've seen in thehost: rece students themselves? guest: we start the film right on the evening of october 7 and ■we set the film initially at harvard university where roughly 30 or so students sign a rst line of the statement held the israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violen hamas, and we talked to the stuso you immediately sea re jewish students and professors and other notable people on■'úp campus, and then immediately from the outside whether it was donor pressure and donors who are incensed about this and

wanted to see this react. you also saw politicians, of course on both sidesf . these are activists like christopher russo come out and say that this type of statement that these students made was on universities with diversity, equity and inclusion programs and what he sees to be the sort of moral rock that is happened on campuses. those forces converged almost within the first 24 hours and then of course intensified over the month. host: if you were a supporter of those protests that took place and you want to ask him about what he saw, (202) 748-8000. if you oppose them, (202) 748-8001. and if you're a college student or a college administrator or work at a college and want to give your perspective, (202) 748-8002.

mr. jacoby, he started the documentary taking a look at a point where students overtake a building. i want to show the folks at home a little bit of that and then talk to you about it. >>[ college protests reaching a boiling point after days of any chemical. >> april 30,protrsgaza have bars in a building at columbia university. they demanded the school severed ties with israel. >> protesters say if columbia tries to remove them by force the school will have blood on its hands. >> less than 24 hours later, columbia university called in the police. >> it looks like a military grade -- coming for them right now with protesters on both sides. >> we see an officer approaching

a window right now. the first officer has entered the window, people are screaming on the street in response. ■n>> the clashes at columbia tht night with the culmination of months of chaos sweeping across american college campuses. >> that is the high point, why start there? guest: as you can see, that body cam footage from the when

we watched this unfold, and various universities around the cotr get to this point? that is really the question that we are trying to answer in the documentary. obviously starting with the point of the most visual tension that we've seen in years, trying to understand in a very calm and sober way how did we get to this point where we are having clashes between the police and protesters, especially at our most elite universities? host: you talk about the clash, the different points. do you ever get a sense of talking to the student or the people that you interviewed any interest in understanding where each other was coming from? guest: that was the surprising thing about reporting the story. at least in the students that we spoke to, there's is a

tremendous amount of division. there's people who have dug in their heels when it comes to this conflict. they seems to be a great deal of pressure on students to pick a side and stick to it. andy a lot of nuance that is missing in that, or gray area. of course it's not just extremists, but i think in the■n media environment that we live in, especially due to social media, the extremeaccentuated. so of course there are pro-palestinian students that have nuanced views of the conflict in certainly jewish students and others that are more moderate. but i think that what happens is that the extremists kind of tend to take hold and get the mos attention. host: when you talk to students or the people that you interviewed, to what sense do you get that they understood the nuance of the history that was going on in the region, the lead

up to the region? to what sense did you get that? guest:s mixed, of course. there's plenty of students that are studying this conflict on their campuses and seeking out professors and literature to teach them. surprisingly, what i found surprising was■z that you talk to students and ask them where they are getting their information and how they are learning about this conflict, some of these universities have great scholars who have studied this history and the history of this conflict and get answers of well, we don't trust the media and we don't trust our professors, so we do our own research. that was surprising in a bit concerning. if you want host: to ask questions about the documentary,

(202) 748-8000. if you support the protests, (202) 748-8001. for college studtsrs, (202) 748. as always, you can send us a text. tell us about the team involved. tell us a little bit more about the involvement. .uest: i work with two producers they did the bulk of finding emblematic people to -- both from the pro-palestinian the chancellor uc berkeley, in

some ways anchoring the film. as somebody who is a female president of a majorwho weighs e storyline about her vieeducatorr so long, and séb;nhe makes the t in the film that you ask about which is in her year and her ti- in÷p her tenureoing to retire and having run other schools past that she is concerned about the levelchambet exist on campuses where universities were meant to be places where people with divergent viewpoints could hash it out and learn from one another. host: let's hear from james who

is supportive. caller: they are able to go to historical scholars. the u.n. condemned us for being colonialists and theyave seen the movie red dawn and can imagine what it would be like. we need to change the textbooks so that not everyone knows the truth, not just the kids. come from. where the where do they come fromproblemsh -- misteach. msour entire economic and educational capitalist systems are based on a falsehood. host: what would like to get answered specifically? caller: if he understands the textbooks both in biology.

host: i will leave it there. is there a sense that the textbooks of the building box has led to the events of what you are seeing? guest: i think that is an important factor, which is i think that postcolonial studies and the idea of intersectionality, w is something the right makes a big deal out of it in terms of what is being taught on campuses, how big a deal it is is difficult to assess in■o reality, but it does exist where there are the frameworks and binaries to some extent of people looking at the world and having a worldview of the press -- oppressor and oppressed. if you apply that to the israel-palestine or race relations in the united states or any sort of and applying that

world view is a part of what is happening here in that seeing -- it can sometimes flatten how you view conflicts. i again would caution about generalizing that is a pervasive worldview on campuses but it is certainly there and something to be looked at critically to think about if we can apply this idea to complex conflicts. host: this is scott in seattle we have at the university of washington. i was surprised at how many people, i don't know where they got the idea they should be supporting hamas as much as they were.

i am old enough to remember how yasser■f arafat had a hard time controlling them and their are probably reasons they don't want them in egypt and causing in neighboring arabic countries. i would think that whatever happens, they can't really be trusted. i wouldn't trust them with a tablespoon of cement. the business of going out and dressing in women's clothing and fading into the crowd and they can't put a uniform on and fight . if they would just do something like that or negotiate in good faith, i think things would be better. guest: i think what scott just said there is obviously a

controversial statement about portraying these protesters as pro-hamas. it is a portrayal that is in some cases may be correct but not necessarily a generalization i would make about the protest movement. there is whether the students are condeg, and whether they think that thomas is a legitimate resistance -- that hamas is a legitimate resistance to israelis. this is a big question we grapple with in the film that again i think what we challenged making a film like that is that on all sideshere is a lot of broad brushing and painting of different groups with broad brushes and that is what we tried not to do in this film. host: of the players, so to

speak, in the last few weeks are members of congress themselves. talk about theirole. guest: we saw those in congress immediately weighing in on this and this is ross the political spectrum. hearings and comments have taken place, the first hearing being december 5 2023 when the house education committee, run by virginia fox, called before the committee the presidents of harvard university, pennsylvania and m.i.t. to testify. at that was the exchange what can be called a famous exchange between a harvard graduate and the harvard president in which she posed a■ hypoth presidents, the inches of

-- answers of which went viral because of their inability to answer in a clear fashion and they were trying to navigate to key legal aspects and didn't really answer it very clearly. host: one of the follow-up we saw because of that right after it was claudine gay of harvard. guest: that is correct. within weeks of that hearing, the president of the university of pennsylvania resigned and then we saw christopher rufo, who is an activist who is leading this campaign against diversity, equity and inclusion college emphasis and elsewhere and he published a series of articles about allegations of plagiarism that claune gay had first

plagiarized parts of her dissertation and other instances surfaced and under this cloud of controversy, she resigned. host: pamela is necks from miami, opposed. caller: good morning. just a reminder to everybody that october 7, the murders were -- the israelis were murdered by terrorists. and after that harvard and others support the massacre of jews. this was before any idf responses. the university presidents could t condemn the speed -- students screaming "death to jews," and using violence to prevent jewish students from going c i think that this is about

students, the justice for palestine and american muslims for palestine organizations supported by soros and many other anti-israel forces that organize this with money and expanded the protests. successful.ge c within months, biden turned against israel and to this day you can see in administration an effort to stop israel from defeating or damaging hamas. host: mr. jacoby, in a sense of the funding of the a lot of rept to be done on the funding sources for some of these groups on bh side that is not really what we get into very deeply in this reporting. we were touch upon what was

brought up about the student statements and what they actually said and what their motivations were, again using the pro-hamas label can be problematic in some instances but we delve into that in this film. we just say that i think in en's foreign policy whether or not this movement has really affected the u.s. stance in any substantive way is difficult to draw that link. it was a moment in the lead up to the israel rafah invasion and not holding back certain types of u.s. missiles or bombs and armaments was related in some way, i think people have been drawing that sort of link. i am not sure there is evidence

to support that but i do think that pamela raises an interesting point about the politics. we are in an election year and a lot of people aels between now 8 in terms of what this might mean for domestic politics that there is this constituency of young and the pro-palestinian movement that will be a factor, certainly for democrats. host: james jacoby, the director of the documentary "crisis on campus," which unveils today. where can it will air tonight n cbs so check local listings. it will stream on■ apps. and youtube. host: let's hear from john in illinois, supporter of the protests. caller: i just wanted to say, we

should understand why the protesters are protesting and against genocide and apartheid. so inapartheid and the oppressif palestinian people and they would be against the protesters. there are two sides to a genocide. ='this is theaever if you are f, support israel and if you are against genocide in need to support the protesters. host: you about claudine gay but part of the acceleration says how president and administrative people reacted initially and how

that kept accelerating the process. can you elaborate on that as well? guest: to your question, i think that these university presidents were in an almost impossible position but answering to so many different constituencies. here comes this very complex and intractable problem, -- probably the moster complicated in histoy in some ways, the conflict in the middle east coming onto their campuses with all this passion and trauma attached areo navigate that on top of constituencies on campus and off campus. ast was put, this is like quicksand. an administrator it make one move and then move it further and it is very difficult to navigate for them. in to the caller's

most black and white question about seeing every day in terms of the assault there and that is motivating a lot of the protest movement and i think what struck me about this is -- and you also asked what are thea lot of the e demanding the end of funding the university campuses and the di cutting ties with israel. and questioning u.s. support for israel. i think that is where things get trickier in terms of what are the larger pragmatic solutions

to the problem at large. back and happy to see what is happening in gaza right now but it is a question as to what are the demands and how realistic are they. host: let's hear from nick in florida on our opposed line. caller: good morning. i am opposed to israel occupying palestine the way it is. every chance they have to basically protest they get shot down. people in our country have family over there and in other parts of the world and they are calling you and crying and

complaining about family members dying. you go to your legislators and you plead and you do something on the issue but the issue is, israel bought our country. every member in congress has an israeli handle. they have to answer to israel. this is america. host: if i understand it correctly, you started this project on the tail end ofprojen netanyahu4 and one of the last interviews you did help to prepare for this. can you te it caller. frontline has been reporting on benjamin netanyahu for many years. i picked up on the reporting of some colleagues and we released a film last year

netanyahu, america and the road to war in gaza. it was a look back going back all the way to the oslo understanding how both netanyahu rose to power and where his views were coming from, in some ways coming to its own as an opponent of the peace process in the 1990's and bill clinton's efforts to bring people to the table. on the other side you had hamas coming into the floor at that point with suicide bombings and terrorist attacks. in the course of reporting that, we spoke to the chief envoy and lead negotiators and was there at the oslo accords at trying to get these two sides together. he said something to me that stuck with me and i have been

thinking about as we have been making this film and basically said that the advance of getting two sworn enemies to shake hands in that moment, what happened was they turned what had been an existential crisis into a political problem. the point was, an existential crisis has no solution whereas political problems have solutions. when i was talking to him and number of months ago and before we -- i became involved in reporting on the campus crisis,4 he said that he looked at the protests and what was going on and looked at israel and the to it and everything that has happened since october 7 and he worries we have gone back to a pre-oslo world, where we are all the sudden hearing os