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continues. host: joining us now to talk about campaign 2020 four and tax policy is david kass, the executive director of americans for tax fairness. guest: great to be here. host: why don't you start by telling our audience about your organization and your position when it comes to taxes. guest: absolutely. the are coalition of organizations of national state and local groups who are united by one simple belief. we need tax reform so we have an

economy that works for everybody, not just those at the top. we believe corporations need to pay their fair share in taxes so that we have revenue to be able to invest in working families and cut the deficit. host: one of the big issues this election season is going to be the economy and taxes. he heard a little bit from vice president kamala harris a week ago, and one of the things she was saying is that she's not going to raise taxes on people making under 400 thousand dollars, which is in theory an extension of what we have seen with president biden. what can you tell us about that proposal and how it has worked so far? guest: the democrats wrapped up their convention and passed a platform this past week which is basically just the biden-harris budget, and in that budget what they have is, they would raise the corporate tax rate.

they would make sure that a lot of loopholes are closed, and also that $400,000 pledge is a very important one. but they say is anyone making less than $400,000 a year, their taxes were not go up. not even a penny. for those who make more, they would be asked to pay their fair share. so, the idea is that the wealthy and big corporations should pay additional taxes. host: when we are looking at those families making under $400,000, what percentage or what estimated group is that compared to those making over that amount? guest: over $400,000 is about 2%, so the wealthiest 2%. so, it would not impact 98% of americans. host: one of the other tax proposals that vice president harris has made is a $6,000 tax credit for new parents.

a child tax credit. what do we know about this proposal and how does it compare to similar proposals that have been in place? guest: two years ago the democrats passed an expanded child tax credit. so, this is something if you have kids, you get a certain amount of money per month, and we know that actually for the year it was in place it cut child poverty by 40%. so, it had a huge impact. what the vice president has proposed is to expand it even further for newborns. so, that first year of life, when there are so many expenses and new parents know it is very expensive. so i think it would have a significant impact. host: 4500? guest: it is 2000 currently.

it would be a very large expansion. host: just going down and looking at some of the other proposals she has made, this headline from abc news, harris proposes raising the corporate tax rate to 28%, rolling back a trump law. remind us where corporate tax rate was before president trump came into office and where it is now. guest: absolutely. in 2017 the trump tax cut was passed by only republican votes and no democratic votes. they cut the corporate tax rate by 40%. so, a huge cut down to 21%. he was actually the most expensive item in the trump tax cut, and they made it permanent. so, what the harris administration says is, they have to go back up to 28%. we believe that you go up to 20 -- should go back up to 35%. right now corporations pay 21%.

if you are in a worker making $45,000 a year you pay a higher tax rate than multimillion dollar corporations, and we don't think that makes sense. host: you are saying your organization would like to see it go back to where it was, what would be the challenges involved in that? even if vice president harris were to get in office? guest: you know, they will be able to have enough votes to pass it. that is really the question. but i think there is no question that the corporate rate was actually lowered even further than corporations thought was going to happen. there was some consensus that it could be 28%, and they cut it even more in 2017. what is interesting, though, is the number of republicans even who are saying it needs to be raised a little bit. so i think there is some bipartisan interest in making the corporate rate go back up. host: and one of the tax issues people may be seeing, because both candidates, former

president trump and vice president harris, are talking about it, it is eliminating taxes on tips. what do we know about their proposal, and is it a viable option? guest: a great question. yes, both candidates have actually said they support it, although harris has said with some guardrails. we have some concerns about the proposal. first, 97% of low wage workers do not get tips. so it impacts very few low-wage workers. there are a few ways that would be much better. the first one is raising the minimum wage. that would have a big impact. also helping unions to be part of -- helping workers to be part of unions. and then these pro-worker tax credits, the tile -- child tax credit. those three things would have a bigger impact than this proposal. host: we are talking with david

kass, executive director of americans for tax fairness about campaign 2024 and tax policy. if you have a question or comment for him you can start calling in now. the lines, republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. and independents, (202) 748-8002 . some of former president trump's tax cut provisions that were put in place are set to expire next year. remind us about some of those key provisions. host: absolutely -- guest: absolutely. overall what did the republicans say was going to happen with that bill? they said it would pay for itself. they said that workers' wages would go up and is this investment would increase. i don't think any of those things have happened. it has been an expensive failure. it did not pay for itself. it actually increased the deficit by $1.9 trillion, and i

think a number of nonpartisan analyses have shown it really expanded the ceo pay and corporations. so, the pieces in that, that big corporate tax cut, it cut the top rate on individuals to 37%, it doubled the exemptions for the estate tax, and so now you can give $27 million tax-free to your heirs. i wish i had $27 million to give to my heirs. host: you could adopt me. guest: it is really so much money to be able to give tax-free. have also weakened the alternative minimum tax, which is set up to make sure the rich cannot use deductions and things to pay little or no taxes. so it really primarily benefit the wealthy and big corporations. host: there is an article on yahoos finance, the article, trump-era tax cuts are set to

expire. here is how much you will pay. individual tax rates also were cut. what impact did that have on the national debt and deficit? guest: absolutely. as you say, the 2017 tax cuts, a number of those provisions are set to expire at the end of next year. we are saying that for anything, a provision that helps people making under $400,000, they should continue. but the rich and big corporations don't need more tax cuts and we should let those expire. i think it would really be helpful to continue those for people under $400,000. host: he will hear from our audience on the issue. we will hear from rick in new york on the independent line. morning. caller: morning. thanks for having me on. i've got a question. there is so much grass -- graft and corruption in congress, supreme court, even the

executive branch under trump. this is kind of silly. i would not ask it six years ago, but is there any way to have our top leaders take a polygraph as a requirement on their tax policies? on their economic policies before they get into a position of power? guest: thank you for your question. i don't know the answer to that. i can say a little bit about, we do believe that all presidential candidates should be releasing their tax returns. i think that is helpful, so that there is transparency about people's taxes. host: kevin in marshall, texas on the republican line. hi, kevin. caller: hi. yeah, my question or comment

concerns the corporate tax rate. when you are going through supply shortages and disruptions of the supply chain, giving a tax cut to corporations helps produce. any economist would recognize that. the corporation has more money to spend, to ramp up production, to hire more people, to pay higher wages or lower prices. corporations, a corporate tax makes no sense. all that is is a tax on production. if it goes to the ceos, you tax that. if it goes to stockholders, that is dividends. that gets taxed. the money that stays there is the money for more employees, research and development, all of that stuff. i'm sure your organization when trump did the tariffs, the first

thing they said, that tax is passed to the consumers. the consumers will pay that. yes, they do. just like an income tax does. you are trying to work both sides. you are not making any economic sense. if you are giving tariffs because of that, it is cost to the consumers and yet you are against a tax cut to corporations when it could also go to cut prices for consumers. guest: thank you so much for that question. as we look at corporate taxes, in the 1950's one third of the federal revenue came from corporate taxes. now it is about 90%. -- 9%. it has dropped dramatically. there are big corporations who pay zero in taxes. that does not make any sense either. as we think about how do we help the economy, it is really how do

we help small businesses. the average small business owner makes $55,000 per year. why are we getting tax cuts to huge corporations making record profits when we should really be thinking about ways to benefit small businesses. i don't think big corporations need more tax cuts. host: the caller said you were trying to cover both sides. remind our audience about your organization, the mission and your approach to the issues. guest: sure. the economy is really rigged for so many people. there are two texas dems. if you are a nurse or a firefighter, you pay taxes every week. if you are a billionaire, you can pay almost nothing in taxes because you are getting a lot of stock and if you never sell the stock, you can pay zero in

taxes. billionaires actually pay a tax rate of 8%. the average american pays a rate of 13.6%, almost double. we should not have these two texas dems, one for the super wealthy. that is why propose a global mental tax. host: what would that look like? guest: the biden-harris administer agenus talked about a 25% tax on those who have wealth of $100 million or more. your average person, your teacher is paying taxes every two weeks. why shouldn't billionaires pay taxes too? this would make sure they are paying at least 25% tax rate. host: i am always looking at the end goal so if a program like that were to be put in place, how would it impact the debt and deficit and are tax system. guest: it raise a significant

amount of money -- it would raise a significant amount of money. it could be used for deficit reduction and tax credits and other things for working families and cutting prices. host: let's hear from meryl in missouri on the democrat line. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. host: did i get that right? is it merrill? caller: that is fine. i have been called a lot of things. on the tax cuts for the corporations, i would like your guest to comment on the stock buybacks for the companies. i know there is the idea of tax cuts for wealthy corporations, when it was first sold, they said they would invest more in

research. and they are not. they are just buying back their own stock to increase the price of it. can you comment on the ira? i know we have republicans like ted cruz and local republicans in missouri saying you will have 87,000 wages -- agents coming out to investigate. according to the irs, the commissioner, they are giving a return on investment two to one. people making $1 million per year, in january they have already siphoned more than half $1 billion in back taxes.

if you could comment on those. guest: i would be happy to. thank you for those questions. the first one on stock buybacks. the caller is right. corporations got this huge tax cut 40%. what happened was stock bac was -- stock buybacks want to record levels. a corporation buys its own stock back. why do they do that? it raises the price of the stock and makes the people who own it, the ceos and other rich investors become wealthier. that is where a lot of the money has actually gone from these corporate tax cuts is to stock buybacks. the democrats passed in 2022 a 1% minimum stock buyback tax. there is a tax when they do that. the biden-harris administration has proposed a 4% buyback tax and we fully support that. on the irs the caller makes it really important point.

for more than a decade, republicans cut funding for the irs. that meant there was less staff to answer the phones, provide customer service and to audit the very wealthy. the very wealthy have complicated tax returns. they have partnerships and all of these things. we need more staff at the irs to look and make sure folks are not cheating. the democrats in 2022 passed $80 billion for the irs to higher more staff. the result in a couple of years has been amazing. when you call the irs and you need help, it used to take 30 minutes that you would have to be on hold. now it is three minutes. so customer service has improved dramatically. the irs has gone after these wealthy people who have not paid their taxes. four billionaires who owed money, the irs has already

collected $1 billion. that is what happens when you give the irs the tools to do its job. for every dollar invested in the irs, it returns $12. host: mary in maryland on the independent line. good morning. caller: hello. i am calling to say that trump is in this race basically for one reason. to keep the tax cuts for the rich going. if musk is willing to put in $46 million per month to make sure that trump wins so that the tax cuts will stay intact, how can that be good for the entire country? how can anybody --good morning. host: go ahead. i think you are hearing your echo in the background from the

television. caller: how can that man, trump, be good for the middle class and the working class? project 2025 is written by trump 's main people. they are talking about defunding social security and medicare. how can any senior vote for trump? if you have your thinking caps, think. the ones voting for trump are under his spell. host: let's get a response. guest: thank you for that question. first about billionaires and money and elections. we did a report in 2022 looking at the election and found that

billionaires had contributed a record amount of campaign funds. one out of nine contributions came from billionaires. we did another report showing that 50 billionaire families had contributed $600 million to the election. democracy is about one person, one vote. it should not be i am a billionaire, i get to buy elections. that is really one of the huge impacts of billionaires having so much money. they end up buying elections. in terms of project 2025, i am glad you brought that up. this has gotten some price. this is something that the heritage foundation organized with lots of conservative activists and there are many different pieces.

the biggest thing it does is it would raise taxes on the middle class and cut taxes on the wealthy. it proposes two tax rates. a 15% rate for those making less than $168,000 and 30% for those who make more than $168,000. it sounds simple. what is the problem? you pay a higher tax rate and it would cost you an additional $2300 per year in taxes that you pay. if you are making $5 million per year, you get a tax cut of $325,000. again, the idea that cutting taxes on the wealthy and increasing taxes on the middle class is a long approach. it would also cut the corporate rate even more from 21% to 18%.

it would cut the capital gains tax which is wealthy investors are paying a rate that is half of what average americans pay on their income. it would lock in some of these bad provisions by making congress can only pass changes with the super majority. this is a dangerous and concerning approach to make sure the wealthy get more tax cuts and the burden increases on middle-class families. we think that is the wrong approach. host: another one of the provisions in project 2025 is considering the introduction of a u.s. consumption tax. guest: yes. it would also propose a 30% consumption tax. what does that mean? if you buy a car, food, any purchase, they would add a 30% tax on that. that kind of burden on working families, we think that is the wrong approach. host: henrietta in florida on

the republican line. hi. caller: good morning. just four short things. one thing is that the trump tax cuts allow companies to write off 100% of any capital equipment they invested in. that makes them more competitive. that is why the steel industry went out of business. secondly, the tax rate, if you know anything, we compete across the world for businesses to come to the united states. thirdly, a lower tax rate generates more revenue. this gentleman here, i would like for him to tell me what kind of an education he has. quite frankly, if he does not have an mba, everything he says is kind of ridiculous.

in addition to that, does he know that billionaires, do you know who they contribute to? both democrats and republicans. lastly, trump has disavowed this crazy project 2025. more importantly what i want to know is do you have an mba? host: let's give david a chance to respond. guest: it would not be the first time someone said my opinions are ridiculous. i appreciate the caller saying that. one of the things the caller talked about was lowering taxes. what we have seen this that the lowest taxes are not necessarily the best. as a society we have to pay for national defense. we have to pay for education. we need a certain amount of government services. the question really is, who will pay them?

is it the wealthy or is it going to be the middle class? our point is that the wealthy should pay their fair share. the second point is we need enough revenue to be able to invest so that we have a well-educated workforce, so that we have roads and bridges that work, a court system that works, all of these things so that businesses can prosper because they need those public services to be able to have a strong economy. host: we are talking about vice president harris's tax proposals. again, something that her and former president trump have brought up is getting rid of the tax on tips. this headline from the guardian newspaper, no tax on tips fires of nevada hospitality workers. former president trump just started airing ads in the battleground states that issue. we will play them for you now

and talk about them. [video clip] >> attention. president trump will end all taxes on social security benefits and end all taxes on tips collected by service workers. >> i am donald trump i approve this message. >> harris and biden have unleashed the irs to rest workers and they may be coming to your house next. only president trump has a plan that ends all taxes on service workers tips. >> i am donald j. trump and i approve this message. host: we talked about the tax on tips, something he has proposed at rallies, eliminating the tax on social security. what do we know about that? guest: just add one more thing about the tax on tips, one of the other concerns we have abounded is that -- we have about it is that if there are no income limits, if wealthy law firms and other folks would reclassify their income as tips,

that does not make sense. that is another problem with their proposal. on social security one of the questions we must ask is that would drain social security even further. where is the money going to come from? it would make social security right now even sooner and that is another concern. host: charles in fort collins, colorado on the independently. caller: just three quick things. i want to know who you are funded by. my next question would be is do you think if we pass the people's act hr1, eliminating lobbyists, gerrymandered districts and things like that, it would make a change in our tax policies? where can i find this information you are talking about? i would really like to be able

to digest it and look it up. guest: our funding comes from foundations and thousands who believe in our mission. you can look at are website to find a lot of the information. host: liz in new jersey on the democrats line. good morning. caller: good morning. i like the title of your group. it is the first time i'm hearing of it. i think one thing we need to educate the american people on is that americans contribute to the cost of our government in different ways and donor states where i live and here in new jersey send more money to washington and give very little back. they dig deep in state and local tax agents to be able to run our state.

i think about fairness and we should be equalizing the amount that americans pay regardless of what state they happen to be living in. new jersey is a donor state. most of the northeast are donor states and we are paying for the military. we are paying for the government. a lot of the recipients of our money are in the south and southwest. those folks seem to think that they are actually paying the bill because they called and complained and think that trump is somehow going to save the money. trump costs new jersey money. the taxpayers supporting --

[indiscernible] unless they are the top 1%, thank you. guest: thank you, caller. again, the question is as we look at the tax system, how do we make sure that the big corporations pay their fair share? it is not complicated. there are lots of things we can do to raise a different. they are raising the corporate tax rate. that would raise $1.3 trillion over the next decade. if we had a millionaire tax of 10% come on people making $2 million or more, that would raise a huge amount of money. there are things we could do. the alternative minimum tax, getting that back. we could raise trillions of dollars to make sure we invest in working families. we can do this. from a policy level, this is easy to do. the other point that is important to make is if you look at the polling, raising taxes on

the rich and corporations is overwhelmingly popular. democrats, independents, even republicans support raising taxes on the rich. that is why you seen so many politicians talking about. it is popular with what people want. host: come january, we will have a new administration in the white house. what are some changes that your organization would like to see the new administration put into place? guest: thank you for asking. first off is making sure that the trump tax cuts expire for people making over $400,000 per year. that's important. getting this corporate tax rate back up to 20% would be very important. the alternative minimum tax, strengthening that. billionaire surcharge. the other really important piece is the billionaire minimum income tax, to make sure billionaires are paying their fair share and we get rid of

this system where we have two different systems. one for billionaires and one for everybody else. host: darlene in florida on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i have two questions. one goes back to the $400,000. is the $400,000 gross or net income? my other question is what the youth about flat tax and what percentage across the board to everyone in corporations etc. without any tax loopholes? thank you. guest: starting with the flat tax. i think the way it would work is you have one tax rate for everybody. what that would mean is instead of having a progressive tax system which means that if you make less money or you are a working-class person, you pay a lower tax rate than the wealthy.

what it would mean is a flat tax in order to generate the money, you would have to raise taxes on the middle class. by having a lower rate, a lower rate for the wealthy, they would get a huge tax cut. we were talking about that earlier. a tax cut is a way to shift the tax burden from the wealthy to the middle class. we think that is a terrible approach. simplifying the tax code is a good idea but this approach is a bad one. host: we have just a few minutes left. we will hear from mark in st. paul, minnesota on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. ms. harris says that former president trump is going to raise tariffs and criticizes the plan because she says that will increase prices to the consumers because corporations will just pass through those cuts. at the same time ms. harris

wants to increase the corporate tax rate. will that not have the same effect of increasing prices for the consumers because the same corporations will pass on the increased tax consequences? guest: great question. about the tariffs proposal. former president trump has said that he wants to increase tariffs for all goods by 10%. maybe a 20% tariff. a tariff is a tax on u.s. importers. if you are bringing goods into the country to sell, you pay 10% or 20%. it is true that would be passed on in higher costs and the average consumer would pay $1500 more at a 10% tariff rate. i think that the corporate rate,

the views in the economic literature are pretty clear that a lot of that is not passed on to the consumers and it is a different situation. host: bob in connecticut on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. i have a couple of comments on some of the statements you made. one with regard to the 8% rate on billionaires. you compared it to the teachers and firefighters and president biden did that during his speech. you know that is a false calculation because the 8% they calculated was based on a study that the white house office of budget conducted over a period of time from 2010 to 2018. . not based on real numbers. it included a real-life capital gains stock from businesses and etc. having some knowledge of mathematics, the bigger the denominator, the lower the rate.

the billionaire tax rate actually gets included with the top 1%. that top 1% of taxpayers pays annually about a 43% rate and this year it will probably go to 45%. 45% of the taxes in the entire united states, income taxes, are paid by 1% of the people including the billionaires. that is a fact. the bottom 50% pay nearly zero taxes. maybe it is 2%. when you take into account credits for earned income and childcare, which is ok because we are a generous nation. if people in lower income levels cannot afford taxes but they can get the benefits of the country, that is fine. guest: thank you, caller. yes, it is true that the 8% calculation includes the wealth gains that billionaires have.

that makes sense because that should be considered income. you have a paycheck, you are a teacher, it is income. we think it makes sense. it is true the wealthy pay a fair amount of tax. their income over recent years have gone up tremendously, dramatically more. the rich are getting richer. they should pay more taxes. host: lori in illinois on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. i want to thank you both for your service. i do a lot of research and i am concerned to the point that our future generations will never recover from the debt being strapped to their backs. i support your work wholeheartedly. but the next president has to get to the bottom of that as well as all of the other mitigating factors that are starting to surface.

it is the question of how much we are in debt. we both know, i grew up in the middle class, if the money is not in the bank, i will not pay my bills. where do we stand with that right now? guest: thanks for the question. the biden-harris budget would cut by $3 trillion. it would raise taxes on the wealthy and big corporations, invest in working families and put a significant amount toward deficit reduction. we can do both. there is money to be able to invest in families and cut the deficit, which is important. host: a lot of tax policy will depend on who was in the white house on january. what are you watching for between now and the election? what policies or details do you want to hear from them? guest: it is very important that we hear from all politicians of

what they would do on tax policy. would they continue the trump tax cuts which were so overwhelming be beneficial for the wealthy and big corporations? do they believe in tax fairness? today believe that the wealthy should pay more in taxes in order to cut the deficit and invest in working families? that is the message we will be talking about over again. host: david kass, americans for tax fairness executive director. you could find them online and on x.