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host: welcome back to washington journal where we are joined by dennis shea, the executive director at the center for housing policy at the bipartisan housing center. welcome. housing affordability is a big issue for a lot of americans. what are the key factors driving up the cost of housing? guest: we see the housing affordability challenge through three lenses. the first lens is supplied. there is a mismatch between the demand for housing and available supply. that is the first lens. we need to increase the supply of affordable homes on the rental side and for sale side, particularly starter homes. the second is preservation. we need to preserve the existing stock of affordable homes. we lose a lot of home to obsolescence or they move up to market rate, so we need to

really pay attention to the need to preserve the existing stock of affordable housing. the third lens is on the demand side. there are going to be people on the country and families in the country whose incomes will not match their housing cost. so at bpc we do support a number of important demand-side initiatives, particularly for example the housing choice voucher program with tell -- which helps to .4 billion low income families afford in the private rental market. with that program it is important and needs to be approved to encourage greater landlord participation. just to summarize, see the housing affordability through those three lenses. host: let us drill down a little bit and start with the supply side. how undersupplied is the u.s.

housing market? guest: that is a great question. there are various estimates. moody's put out 1.5 million. the national realtors says that we have under built life 5.5 million a few years ago. we can safely say that as a country we have under built housing by millions of homes both rental and for sale over the past 15 years, since the great recession. host: so why is it and why did that recession sparked under building? guest: when the recession hit, it crushed to the homebuilding industry and we lost a lot of jobs in the homebuilding industry. the residential construction industry and those jobs that remained unfilled in many respects. that has been a big part of it. we have had a major, throughout the country we have a history of

restrictive zoning and land-use regulations which limits the types of housing that can be built in certain communities. and these restrictions have definitely kept down supply. when covid hit, it led to a lot of shortages of he homebuilding materials like lumber, steel, and copper wire and the prices got shot up which was reflected in the housing. and when the fed started tightening and the mortgage rates went up, lock in effect. people who have mortgages at 3% or got in when the mortgage rates were low are sitting there saying i am not going to move. host: they cannot afford to. guest: they cannot afford to pay 6% or 7% to go to another house which has locked-in a lot of inventory. host: you talk about the zoning

rules and all of those regulations that are can -- that are restricting supply. why is that? why are there strict zoning laws that make it so hard to build new houses? guest: i think one of the reasons that people have -- that they went into effect was to preserve the character of the neighborhood. so issues like single families home. every lot has to be used for single-family home. issues like parking minimums. we need to have a lot of parking spaces but in some communities people have realized do not need to have all of these parking minimum requirements that are as stringent. and when you look to put a parking space for a multifamily or apartment it can be extremely expensive especially if it is underground. some people say there is a racial component to this to keep

the racial compensation -- composition of their communities the way it is. so, there are a lot of different factors. host: so once you move into a neighborhood you start voting for zoning regulations to keep some people out. guest: for a lot of people the home is their most important asset. and if they fear that the character of their neighborhood is going to change, that might impact the value of their home. so, i am not one of those people who say these are bad people who restrict or support these restrictive zoning and land use requirements. as a society, a lot of communities are waking up. and this is a bipartisan issue. governors like the republican

governor of montana and got -- and utah like democrat -- and democratic states like oregon and california are realizing that we need to loosen up on these regulations on the land use and zoning requirements to allow a greater diversity of housing in communities. host: we are talking to dennis shea on housing affordability. if you would like to join our conversation the numbers are democrats,1. -- 202-748-8000. republicans, 202-748-8001. and independents, 202-748-8002. sticking on the supply side vice president harris called for the construction of 3 million new housing units. how would that get done? what that make a difference? guest: let me say that i believe the bipartisan sweet spot on housing affordability is the need to increase supply of

homes. i think there is broad agreement among both parties that we really need to increase the supply of homes. so a couple of elements. vice president harris called for 3 million new homes over the next four years. and a couple of the ideas that she has put forward are already pending in congress and enjoy bipartisan support. she calls for the enactment of a tax credit to support the production and rehabilitation of affordable rental housing. that is a reference to the low income housing tax credit which has been around for 36 years and george mitchell, john danforth, i know your viewers are political people so they know those two names. the republican and democrat that created the program which has led to 3.7 million affordable rental homes over the past 30 some odd years. vice president harris -- there is legislation in congress that

would dramatically expand the low income housing tax credit and the federal support for it. and that is broad -- that has broad bipartisan support and over 200 cosponsors in the house, both republicans and democrats. the other thing she is calling for is the neighborhood homes investment act which is modeled after another tax incentive to encourage private developers to build affordable starter homes for sale in distressed communities. that has broad bipartisan support in congress and those are two ideas. host: that would be a tax incentive? guest: tax incentives to developers to invest their money in affordable rental housing and affordable starter homes for sale. and vice president harris has called for another tax incentive for starter homes on top of that neighborhood homes investment act. host: let us talk to callers.

william. houston, texas. democrat. caller: good morning c-span and sir,, hostess and guest. i have a question. i happen to live in an apartment complex that is managed and owned by a bank. and i have to have 3 -- three times the income of my rent. but when i go apply for a loan from the same bank purchase a home which would be 400 or $500 less than the rent i will be paying for i get denied. but they will give me a new lease. why is it that it works for others? my neighbor is moving next week into one of the same properties i looked at.

needless to say we do not look alike when you see us. there are a lot of reasons why that meet the needs to rent at five -- at high ends places but go and try and buy a house. guest: thank you for sharing your situation. that is an issue that for example the regulator for fannie mae and freddie mac has looked at. how to do credit scoring. and i personally believe that if someone has been paying their rent on time for a significant period of years, that should definitely be counted toward as a positive in your credit score. if you are paying utility bills and the rent on time and doing other things on time, that definitely should be a factor in demonstrating your credit worthiness. that is my personal opinion. host: alex in mountain view,

california. independent. good morning. caller: i have a quick comment and then question. the comment is simply in all of the discussions of the housing problems i have never heard of anyone talking about the impact of illegal immigration on the price of housing. over the past decades the cumulative number of people here illegally is approximately 60 million. here's my question. what is the impact of their presence on the price of housing and vacancies? if they simply did not exist or return to their homelands, what would be the decline in pricing and increase in vacancies? if i may, one quick additional question. are you aware of anyone who is actually looking at this problem

-- what the impact of illegal immigration is on housing? thank you, that's what i wanted to ask. guest: i am not familiar with any particular study on going now to look at that issue but many people say that it is an issue of supply and demand. if you increase the demand for housing and the supply remains the same, you are going to lead to higher housing costs for folks. i know senator vance on the campaign trail, or at least in the past, has cited the issue of illegal immigration impacting housing affordability. host: and that one of the policy solutions is the mass deportation of immigrants. do you think that would impact housing? guest: i have not looked at that issue. we are not -- we haven't looked at the issue of housing and immigration.

or the issue of mass deportation. i think alex raises an issue, but senator vance on the campaign trail has cited that as a problem. host: republican mine, kyle, truth or consequences new mexico. guest: uh-oh, truth or consequences. [laughter] caller: i know, right? thanks. airbnb, that's my -- i call you guys sometimes, but airbnb's. can you give a grunt or something to acknowledged the effective airbnb's and short-term rentals on the housing market? i moved to truth or consequences from colorado. i bought a house on my own. i worked my butt off. when i was 28, i bought a house

in colorado and i sold it when i was 35. around there. and i moved down here. um, managed to springs, colorado , 2012 or so, past limits on short-term rentals. they are about the same ties -- same sized town. they said only 271, grandfathered, for short-term rentals. bam. host: so, when you say limits, kyle, limits on the number of properties that can be short-term airbnb's? guest: exactly. and there's got to be a percentage. like, it's not the same everywhere. but short-term rentals truly destroyed towns. they do. they do.

you don't have voters. host: let's get a response. go ahead, dennis. guest: full disclosure, i'm on the affordable housing advisory council for airbnb. they put together a people -- a group of people in the housing community to inform them on housing policy. let me just full disclosure, i'm a member of that committee. the argument, airbnb rentals have helped improve affordability for many people who rent their home out during times when they are not there and it has helped people to meet their mortgage or meet their rental payment. so, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that that dynamic has helped people with housing affordability. i'm about to start reading some materials about new york city. they limited airbnb rentals to see what the, what the impact on housing supply and housing

affordability might be. host: and what do you think about limiting corporations, large corporations, from buying up a lot of rental property? what are your thoughts on that? guest: you know, i think we need more private investment. a lot of those homes being purchased may not have been on the market, but for the investment being made, may have needed rehabilitation. i don't see them as being a dominant force in the rental market at all. host: ida, new britain, connecticut. democrat, good morning. caller: hello. my name is ida. hi. i don't quite understand the difference or -- let's put it this way, if people are going to be allowed to rent apartments and the government is going to control certain parts of that by saying how long or whatever, the

short-term business is, whatever the problems are, if the government is going to get into it and the landlord has to rent to somebody, there is -- there is always a problem when, say, the tenant doesn't live up to his deal or the landlord doesn't live up to their deal and they just leave the place and it's a horror. you do have awful landlords, right? and you do have horrible tenants at times. the problem, for me, is if you are going to take a chance and rent your house out or part of your house out to somebody, you ought to be able to put them out pretty fast if they don't -- not only don't just pay the rent, the worst part, but if they, if they, if they don't, they don't live properly, doing drugs in the house or anything.

you have a problem getting people out of your house. end the government has, they don't have section eight to get people in, but they don't make it easy for landlords to get them out if something is wrong. housing is very, very difficult problem. i don't blame any government agencies. i don't blame landlords. i don't blame tenants. but there is that constant battle between the landlord and the tenant and when you are talking about renting housing, this has nothing to do with buying housing. that's another problem that we will leave for another day. host: all right. guest: it's a very interesting discussion and commentary on the tension between landlord and

tenant rights and responsibilities. it is an ongoing debate during pandemic. many states, there was a federal eviction moratorium. many states had similar measures . there were also emergency rental assistance for tenants. you know, that was during a time of emergency and crisis. i will say, just since we are in the political season, president biden proposed federal rent control statutes, put forward federal rent control ideas that would apply to sort of larger landlords capping rents at 5% over the next couple of years. if the landlord refused to cap the rent, he would not or she would not benefit from certain tax depreciation benefits.

that has created a lot of controversy between those who think rent control is a good thing and those who think it is a disincentive for creating more supply of rental housing. host: what do you think? guest: i personally don't think it is a good thing. at the center we haven't taken a position on it, but on our website we have a lot of the arguments on both sides of it. as a general matter, i don't think rent control is a good thing. host: let's talk to dane in tennessee, good morning. caller: our hedge fund managers buying large quantities of property in big cities, certain areas, and once they reach a certain point, they control the rent price, the price of rent? we heard that in nashville when the rent a year ago went up to $2600 for a small two bedroom apartment. host: hedge funds.

guest: i don't know the particular situation in nashville. there are other types of private investment in both homes for sale and single-family rentals and apartment buildings. apartment buildings. i will say that since this is a political, we are in political season, vice president harris has put forward a proposal that would it would allow the use of algorithms by landlords to set rents. we have not taken a position that -- on that at the terwilliger center, but this issue is on the minds of many. host: another harris policy initiative is 25 thousand

dollars for first-time homebuyers. what do you think of that? will that boost demand? guest: well, this is an area where there is not a lot of bipartisanship. republicans will say that if you write a check for 25 thousand dollars, if you provide that assistance, it's just going to increase demand and to be priced into the costs of a home. it's not going to, without a increase in housing supply, you are just going to cause home prices to increase. host: illinois, independent mine , stephen, you are next. caller: yeah, i moved into a house on the west side of chicago. all the rent, there were about 35 vacant lots within two or three blocks where i purchased this home.

alderman bennett basically blocked the building of the new construction, houses, which would have increased the price ofousing, my house. would have created new homes. he blocked it because there was a black-owned contractor to build these houses or apartments. i see it going on again, where i saw him on tv last week, about this gambling, casino, with construction workers from the cabrini green projects.

there will never be another house built or produced ever again, or built with such magnitude. host: dennis shea, any comment there? guest: i don't. it's a very local issue. host: virginia, independent, good morning. caller: i first of all want to correct your host about what he said previously, that [indiscernible] are helping. it's not true. people with primary residences, they don't do airbnb on primary residences. they purchase other properties and use it for airbnb. that's one thing. and it's not about supply and demand. in fact, we have millions and millions of vacant properties.

it's when government starts lowering interest rates, a lot of people start buying up these properties low interest rate, they don't want to sell it, they are doing it, renting it out as airbnb's. we should come up with different taxation codes. we can control that. today i can't move to an area, i can't afford anything. the only option i have is rent and rent has gone up pretty much a lot. we also have foreign companies buying up a lot of properties. i know you tried to dodge that to say that you don't have any knowledge about that, saying it's not true, but foreign companies are buying land and properties and squeezing citizens from being able to buy anything. host: we'll get a response but i wanted to make sure you saw this, realtor.com, it's about

housing supply. this is the data that they are giving from 2012. up to 2000 23. you and see the number of homes here going down and this is the gap between the home and supply. you can take a look at that at realtor.com. go ahead, dennis shea guest:. guest:with chris --dennis shea. guest: with respect to the under building issue, freddie mac, the realtors, 25 million under built. moody's, 1.5 million under built . there have been multiple economic studies that say we have simply under built housing on both the rental and homeownership side by millions of homes. insufficient to meet the demand as households are forming. so, i will just leave it at that. with respect to airbnb, you are

right. there are people who have bought multiple homes to rent out as airbnb rentals, but there are also people who have used their own home that they live in and have rented it out as an airbnb. host: here's christian, new haven, connecticut, democrat. caller: thanks for taking my call. i want to point out that people have no idea how expensive it is to own a home. i think if you look at the mortgages as a big expense, but actually the biggest expense that has been going up, at least in this part of the country over the last 10 years, some of my biggest expenses, and i'm a landlord, are the property taxes have gone up at least roughly between 50% and 100% over the last 10 years. insurance, homeowners insurance has gone up 50% to 100% over the

last 10 years. water, sewer, 50% to 100% over the last 10 years. electric, up 50% to 100% over the last 10 years. you are talking about a 3000 square-foot house, you have got to put a roof on that thing. going to class to $25,000. painting that thing will cause to $25,000. permitting for the most simple things is complex and expensive. the mortgage is actually the least of my expenses. fortunately, i don't have mortgages anymore. but if you want to talk about the price of owning a home, the biggest reason people cancel their deals is when they get into the closing and they start adding up all these costs, it just folds. they don't have the money for the insurance.

they didn't calculate the property taxes right. the property taxes, by far, are going to be your most, your biggest expense when owning a home. guest: all right. great point, christian. owning a home can be very expensive, i think you made some great points. with rising home prices, you have rising property taxes as the home values get reassessed and taxes are then levied against the upwardly revised home price. that really negatively impacts particularly older americans who are on fixed incomes and may have paid off their mortgage and are sitting at home and property taxes have gone significantly up. another issue that christian raised that is a good point is the rising home owners insurance over the past couple of years.

we have seen the costs of homeowners insurance in many states, particularly those impacted by weather events, really skyrocket. it's becoming a major piece of the puzzle of the housing affordability problems, dealing with, dealing with that, finding solutions. alabama, for example, they fortified groups in their homes. that seems to be a possible solution. i know that we are at the center looking at possible bipartisan federal responses to how to mitigate rising property insurance costs and its impact on housing affordability. host: this one comes from x, "i'm not clear how the $25,000 will be allocated. is it a credit at closing? a tax credit to reduce the property taxes? what are the

details of this benefit? guest: i understand it to be limited to first-time homebuyers with a $25,000 grant. that is how i understand it. host: here's wanda from chattanooga, tennessee, democrat, good morning. caller: good morning. my first question is -- is there a correlation between osha and mold in the home? my second question is -- what are some of the -- what are some of the processes with renting to own with section eight? host: what was a question on section eight? caller: sorry, i was wondering, what are the policies around renting to own for section eight?

guest: rent to own. osha, i believe, those regulations apply to work areas where there is >> section eight is run by local housing authorities. some housing authorities have

rent to own programs but i do not know which ones those are. i do not think it is a highly prevalent program. >> since you study housing, you must know about senator kamala harris' 2018 and 2019 renter relief act. how would that bill have worked? >> i'm not familiar with senator harris' 2018 renter relief act. i'm sorry about that. >> you have to turn down your tv. >> what happens when a woman ends up alone when she is in retirement and you do not have a home anymore so you rent a place and the rent stays the same forever and then somebody comes

in and buys all these places and then they raise your rent? in four years, my rent has been raised three times. this has been the fourth year and they have raised it three times. when you are on a fixed income, you cannot afford that. they buy up all these places and raise your rent. >> we have some information for you on the rental relief act. harris' rental relief act which then-senator harris introduced into the senate in 2018 would create a refundable rental tax credit for households whose housing costs exceed 30% of their income including rent and utilities. the goal is to help low income people across the country afford rent. supporters of the bill include the national low income housing coalition, fair housing of california and the national housing law project.

this legislation would apply to anyone making $100,000 or less. >> it is a renter tax credit. it is an idea that has been put forward by various advocacy groups over the past 10 years and washington, d.c. it has not gotten traction. with rents going up, so many americans struggling with high housing costs, the idea of a renter tax credit could have some political -- >> robert in miami, florida. independent. >> good morning. one correlation not being discussed is the biden-harris immigration policy and how it will affect housing affordability. assuming there were 80 million undocumented people let into our country illegally, how will that exacerbate the housing

affordability and where will these people end up? i think it is a terrible policy. the biden-harris administration have let americans down. what are your thoughts? >> we talked about this. anything you want to add? >> supply and demand laws still apply. if there is more demand for housing and the supply has not gone up, housing costs will go up. senator vance has mentioned this issue in the past and i believe recently on the campaign trail. >> linda in missouri, democrat, good morning. thank you for taking my call. i do not know why everything goes back to immigration. i am calling because i do not understand how a homeowner does not have any recourse when investors come into your neighborhood, buy up a few homes, fix them up and sell them more than what your home is worth and then you feel stuck with the same tax increase and

we have no recourse. for some of these houses they come in and do that, i would not qualify even for that loan. how can they put that on my home? i do not have other construction on my property. my house is still the same that it was ever sense i have been here. i think that is totally unfair. you just drive by and increase my taxes on my home because someone bought a house for a lower amount, fix it up and then sold it for two or three times more. >> any comments? >> again, i do not know the caller's personal situation. sometimes homes need to be rehabbed and improved. it sounds like it might be impacting her property taxes, which i can understand if you

are on fixed income would be a problem. >> cindy in syracuse, new york, independent. >> good morning, c-span. second time calling. you have not talked about senior homes, rentals. i just wanted to talk about landlords increasing your rent. i moved in in august of 2020. it is august, '24. it started at $1175 and has gone up to $1835 in almost four years. i think this says we need to increase the supply of rental housing, affordable rental housing. it is particularly important for seniors. there is not enough rental housing that is connected to

supportive services. we have done a lot of work on the connection between housing and aging. we had a task force called the senior health and housing task force. other luminaries in the housing world we came up with the report six or seven years ago on a series of recommendations. it is a real issue. you look at the demographics in the u.s. we are becoming a much older country. perhaps the largest growing segment of the population is 65 and older. many people in that is group want to age in place. they want to stay in their own homes and their own communities and age in place. unfortunately, many of our homes and communities are ill equipped. the home does not have the characteristics that would allow for safe living. my mother aged in place in the

home we grew up in. she passed away there. probably not the best place. she wanted to stay there. people want to stay in their own communities. they know the grocery store, post office, they do not want to move. we need to get more senior housing connected to support services, as well. >> is there any legislation right now in congress that is bipartisan that could pass that would actually impact housing supply and the cost of housing? >> if you pass the affordable housing credit improvement act which is the expansion of the low income housing tax credit, that has strong bipartisan support. people estimate that would lead to 2 million new affordable rental homes over the. next 10 years. we should pass the neighborhood homes investment act, which would create -- the production

of starter homes for sale. that has been estimated to create about 500,000 homes. those two steps would be really important. both have bipartisan support. next year, the tax cuts and jobs act will expire. that is the 2017 tax bill. there will be a lot of consideration of tax policy next year. i know people who support housing -- affordable housing advocates, we are hoping those two provisions and maybe other things get put into the tax bill in 2025. >> dennis shea, center for housing policy executive director. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> c-span will be live at georgetown university as the

free-speech project will hold a discussion on free speech and campus protests in light of nationwide campus unrest. participants are expected to discuss future on campus protests at american universities as students return to school. and whether there is or should be any hope of more civil dialogue and less violence. we expect this to begin shortly. >> many israelis are pushing their governments prioritize the release of hostages. prime minister benjamin

netanyahu has refused to change course. here is the israeli prime minister on monday making an apology to families of the six hostages. >> i am begging for your forgiveness that we did not succeed bringing them home alive. we were very close. nearly there. i would like to repeat once again this evening, israel will not move on to our normal agenda. after that massacre, hamas will pay a heavy price for it. the war against this axis of people and this pacific war against hamas. the first crack and of course that does not -- the first crack was when we went to rossah and we took -- raffah and took over

the transit point because that was the way they could breathe, the oxygen, they would hope iran and hezbollah would save them. extricate them from the situation. the only effective change that would be enabled would be if we hold on to the corridor and not evacuate it. once we leave it, we will never be able to go back. >> just so you know, he referenced the corridor, the guardian explaining what that is. it says control of the strip between gaza and egypt. cease-fire negotiations. this is a map. this is where it is in israel.

here is the gaza strip. the border with egypt. this is what is called the corridor that israel wants to maintain control of. we will go to calls now. st. paul, minnesota, independent. >> good morning. you do a wonderful job. >> thank you. >> unquestionably, war is vanity at its lowest. but, remember, in december of 1941, 3000 americans lost their souls when we were attacked by pearl harbor -- attacked at pearl harbor by the japanese. subsequently, eliminated the threat. military and collateral damage. tokyo bombings cost the lives of 100,000.

69 other japanese cities, 500,000. people today are keeping score, thinking that is the way you eliminate the threat. that is the wrong way to do it. war is not pretty. but when you are attacked, you have to protect the nation. that is the first role of government. >> do you say israel should keep fighting hamas? >> i think that hamas is a threat to israel. they do not recognize israel with other ngos and other nations and call for the demise and elimination of israel. you cannot negotiate with people who sit across the table and do not recognize you. i think israel has the right to defend itself. hamas pulled the trigger to start this. sadly, hamas needs to be

eliminated. thank you for your time. i will let other people get on. >> president biden was asked if prime minister netanyahu was doing enough to secure a hostage release deal and the white house press secretary was asked about that at the press briefing. >> what more does prime minister netanyahu need to be doing to get a deal done? >> we do not have anything to add or anything more specific to add to what the president said yesterday. he was asked a direct question, he answered that. we do not have anything else. we will continue to have conversations about the next steps with our co-mediators, qatar and egypt, to figure out how to move forward. this president is committed to make sure we get a cease-fire deal. this means that it would end the war. the president wants to see the

war ended and the palestinian people continue to get relief. we want to up the assistants into gaza for the palestinian people and we want to get hostages home to. their families the story that came out over the weekend of the six hostages, one of them being an american citizen, is devastating. it is devastating. it was devastating news and a heinous act that we saw by hamas. >> does the president regard any of the israeli demands that have been put on the table during these negotiations unreasonable? >> i will not negotiate from here as my colleague said, we will not negotiate from here. we will not go point by point here. we are looking at all options, as we have said before, and will continue to have consultations with co-mediators, qatar and

egypt. i do not want to get ahead of that. >> prime minister netanyahu, is he a good-faith actor in these negotiations? >> the presidencies the prime minister as someone he has known for decades. they have tended to had honest, direct conversations. i will not get into a yes or no. i will get into what i know their relationship to be. that is what is important. the president wants to get this done. i would just leave it there. >> here is susan on facebook who sends us this. two-state solution should be the goal. the genocide of palestinians is creating more for hamas. netanyahu will not agree to a cease-fire. . 's goal is to kill all palestinians and take all the land they own. he is a war criminal. while he is in power that will be no justice or peace. someone else said they should agree to a cease-fire.

let's find a way to negotiate with the palestinian people -- the real people, not the terrorists, hamas. find a real solution that treats all people effectively. dough from burke, virginia, republican. >> my question would be, did anyone ask america to stop bombing iraq and kuwait during the first gulf war or the second gulf war after we were attacked on 9/11? is anyone ask us to stop doing that? why is the west all of the sudden the moral high ground? i am american, i am part of the west. we are on moral high ground compared to israel, our only allies, all of the middle east. that does not even make sense to me. since when are we