>> coming up, more from the white house. president biden and vice president harris will talk about gun violence in the u.s. we'll have their remarks live from the rose garden scheduled for 4:45 eastern here on c-span. also on the c-span now mobile app and online at c-span.org. c-span's "washington journal" our live forum involving you to discuss the latest issues in government and public policy. from washington, d.c. to across the country. coming up friday morning, we'll discuss the week's top news stories in campaign 2024 with "usa today" white house correspondent joey garrison and shelby alcott and congressman bill foster, a member of the financial services committee. we'll talk about the economy, artificial intelligence and

congressional news of the day. also city hall bureau chief, craig mccarthy on the federal indictment of new york city mayor. join in live, friday morning on c-span, c-span now or online at c-span.org. walcyk of george wasn university, the director for the institute of food safety and nutrition security. thank you for giving us your time. we invited you because of the outbreak for listeria. if you could remind the viewers about this outbreak, what happened and how was it cause? guest: this outbreak is associated with boar's head deli meats caused by listeria. this is a foodborne pathogen that can be very serious, particularly for pregnant and

postpartum women, people over the age of 65 and anyone with a compromised immune system. it grows naturally in the environment and it is a big problem in ready-to-eat products like hotdogs and soft cheeses and deli meat. the way this happened is that there is contamination in the establishment that was producing this product and it has caused so far nine deaths and 57 hospitalizations. and over 7 million pounds of product has been recalled. host: when the stories came out, one of the stories that you saw was he actually plant -- was the actual plant itself, just to show you the headline, bugs, mold and mildew being found. where does it get to a point where that is being found in a place that puts together food. guest: that is a great question and one that a lot of people in the food safety community have. in a ready-to-eat establishment

like the one producing that product it should be sanitized and cleaned every shift. multiple times. to see mold which takes a long time to grow, that suggests that it was not being cleaned on a regular basis and it should have been. i have read all of the noncompliance report cited by the virginia department of agriculture sciences. i was appalled. they talked about taking the cover off of one piece of equipment and the room smelled rancid. there was meat around the equipment caked, and that should not happen. these violations were going back a year. it raises the question of where was the management and the establishment at boar's head, where was the managing with the regulatory agencies and why didn't they do something sooner? host: how do the inspections come to play when looking at the

places that manufacture these products on the local, state, or federal level? caller: -- guest: boar's head is federally inspected because it crosses state lines so it falls under the jurisdiction of the u.s. department of agriculture food safety and inspection service. the safety inspection service does sometimes enter into cooperative agreements with states and virginia is one of them, where they have been deputized the inspectors in the state to conduct the inspections for them. under federal inspection regulations for meat and poultry, if you are producing these products you have to be inspected on a daily basis. but someone has to inspect regularly. if you are slaughtering animals, then it has to be continuation inspections, a usda or state inspector has to be there continuously. but in inspector would come into

-- an inspector would come into the establishment and they would look at equipment, the walls, the coolers, the floors, they are looking for potential problems and listeria we know is an environmental pathogen, it is out there and grows at room temperature and in cold temperatures and we know that it likes to live in drains and water. one of the things that an inspector would look for is is there, -- condensation dripping onto product, are there dripping pipes or a leaky roof or drains that are flooding. all of those are documented in the inspection reports from that establishment. host: one of the reports mentioned what you said, this is saying that "a public affairs specialist said that the usda said the remain closed until the estaent is able to demonstrate it can p a

safe product. this facilitys inspected by the virginia department of agriculture and consumer services as part of the talmadge -aiken production program. the state's progress -- program must be at least equal and approved by the usda." guest: one of the questions is why wasn't the ute -- the unity -- usda auditing the program and where was the breakdown. was it that they did not move the complaint up? because typically, 69 different instances. this is going back to august of 2023. these illnesses and deaths could have been prevented that they were not. so we -- so where in the regulatory process was the breakdown? all of the data collected were going into the usda inspection database. why wasn't anybody looking at the data? and i have a lot of questions

for the regulatory agency and we have been asking them. but i want to be clear, boar's head had the ultimate responsibility of making sure that they were producing safe food for consumers and they failed. and we need to hold them accountable. host: if you want to ask her questions you can call the lines. 202-748-8000 for democrats. 202-748-8001 for republicans. independents, 202-748-8002. if you want to text us, 202-748-8003. the questions that you would ask questioningly, what would be the chief of them? guest: one of the questions that many of us have is typically, establishments are supposed to test for listeria or a contest for an indicator organism of the species. so where are the test results? why wasn't the plant testing,

why wasn't the testing done by the regulatory agencies? and if they did test positive and i cannot imagine given the conditions of the plant that you would not test positive, why didn't they take action sooner? it raises questions about there is another system in place that in my opinion failed, so most plants are audited by third-party auditors. and these are certification schemes and there are a lot of different ones. and they want to make sure and many buyers who buy boar's head products or other products will hire suppliers to have the certification audits completed staying devastating that they are making food safety standards. this plant got an excellent rating and may of this year on one of those scans. the question is why didn't the scheme find the

problem? you have a breakdown at the plant, management, the virginia regulatory agency, the usda, and you have it within the buying community and within the certification schemes. and they should not have happened. we know listeria is a big problem in ready-to-eat products. back in 1998 we had a huge outbreak from sarah lee. 2008, another one from maple leaf foods. the question is when we are going to learn our lesson. host: if and expectorant shows up on any -- on any level does a complement -- does a company automatically have to grant them access? guest: yes. the company cannot say you cannot come into the establish. if they are not operating they could ask the inspector to wait

until operations begin. they cannot deny an inspector coming into the establishment, not if they want to have the usda mark of inspection. host: our guest will answer the questions. this is steve starting off in pennsylvania. republican line. you are on. go ahead. caller: thank you for taking my call. i work in the food safety industry. i work for the various food industries and i have several different meat plants, big industrial scale like the one in virginia. your description of what the usda inspectors are supposed to do is spot on with my experience and what they should be doing. the fact that a plant can have that much -- that many violations when it comes to mold and listeria hits and drains is totally unacceptable and also

sounds criminal to me. but, thank you for your spot on analysis of what should be going on. guest: yes. and i thank you for your comment. and honestly i agree with you. i think this does go into the realm of being more than just a breakdown in failure. if you are in the business of producing food, you need to realize you have a moral obligation to produce the food as safely as you can. this is a product that people will take and put into their bodies and it will directly impact their overall health. and the producers here need to be held accountable. host: let us hear from barbara in the bronx. democrat line. caller: good morning. the first thing that occurred to me is that if this plant was producing caviar, i wonder if the inspection would be so lax.

and the second thing i thought about was that i am died in the wool democrat. i listen to trump saying that he wants to get rid of a whole bunch of government bureaucrats. and i am beginning to believe that maybe he is right. people will not do their jobs they will never get fired and never get punished. why do we keep paying them? nothing ever changes. i remember a couple of years ago it was peanut butter. and the same thing, a disgusting sanitary situation in the factory and nobody does anything and you never hear about them getting fired. what is the use of having these inspectors? thank you. guest: a lot to unpack. but, first of all i want to say that i know a lot of people who work in the food safety regulatory agencies and they are good people. and they are very dedicated to

protecting public health. a couple of points. our food safety oversight system in the united states is very fragmented and that is part of the problem and why you see failures. usda regulates meat, poultry processing and catfish. the fda regulates everything else. and often they delegate things to the states. most retail food inspections and the inspection of restaurants and so forth are usually conducted by the states and local level. unfortunately and if i had graphs with me i can show you that the funding for these agencies have been pretty flat over time. and that is one of the challenges is that they do not have the resources needed to hire inspectors. and inspecting jobs are really tough. you travel a lot and you often

live in rural areas with a lot of -- and you need a lot of education. the pay is not that great. and so they have trouble recruiting people to work as inspectors. i am going to go back. personally i would not advocate for getting rid of the public health agencies that oversee the safety of food. they catch a lot of problems that you do not hear about. there is a lot a prevention that does go on. ultimately the company is the one responsible for this overall failure. they did not have a culture of safety. so, as the earlier caller said who worked in sanitation and hygiene, the fact that there were sony problems happening suggested that they were not prioritizing the health and well-being of their customers. in my opinion it seems like they were not -- they were prioritizing profit over that. host: you talked a little bit about money. july 15 usda says we will have

1% less in the budget. the budget will be about $1.24 billion up by 33 million dollars that year. as a figure that is big but not big enough? guest: not big enough. so again, a lot of our surveillance systems and the public health agencies got a huge influx during the pandemic of funding which was very helpful and that funding is starting to go away. they have been under resourced for a very long time. these incremental budget increases that we are seeing are really playing catch up. host: did covid impact the inspection system itself? guest: in several ways. any of the state and local health departments and agricultural departments that were charged with overseeing covid response are also the ones charged with overseeing restaurant inspections.

so they did in some cases stop doing restaurant inspections and the fda did stop doing some inspections. just to be clear, the usda meat, come -- poultry, eggs and catfish plants have to be inspected on a daily basis by and large. the fda is a completely different regulatory paradigm. before the food safety modernization act which was passed in 2010 and is still being implemented today, sad to say, they before that were on average once every 10 years. it is now hitting once every five to seven years. and if you look at the number of food businesses in this country, there are not enough inspectors to be able to go to each one. and that was part of the problem with peanut corporation of america is that that fell under

the jurisdiction of the fda and they before the food safety modernization act was implemented did not even have to register as a food facility and now they do. so peanut corporation of america has food can -- facilities that the regulars did not know about that. host: barbara kowalcyk from george -- george washington university. independent line. hello. caller: i worked in construction for quite a while and we have to do regular tests on concrete and wells and other structures and if we fail to do the tests and they fail, and someone is killed as happened several times through building collapses we could be held liable for gross negligent homicide. do the same rules apply to the food companies who fail to test and and people get sick and die from outbreaks? guest: a great question. i wish it happened more often than it does.

so, in peanut corporation of america, the leadership of that company was tried and did receive criminal charges and they are in jail. and that was one of the first instances of that. typically there are lawsuits filed by those people impacted and their families against the company itself. so a $10 million lawsuit was filed yesterday on behalf of a woman in georgia who was impacted by this outbreak. the problem is is that that often -- you hear about that but there are many cases that do not ever make it to litigation. unfortunately it is a good stick, but not an effective one. sometimes it is really impactful and i do not know if you are old

enough to remember, there used to be a chain called chichi's and sizzler and they no longer exist because they had outbreaks and the lawsuits that ensued put them out of business. that also brings into questions about insurance requirements and the insurance industry trying to make sure that their clients are meeting the best safety standards. host: i know you said it is fragmented depending on if it is a plant or restaurant, who sets the sanitation standards? guest: the sanitation standard is set by usda under the regulatory framework. if it is a restaurant it is set by the state. so the fda has a model food code and that is developed and implemented by the conference for food protection. and then each state can adopt or have a modified version of that food code and that is what the

state inspectors regulate to in the restaurant business. again on the fda side when you have a peanut corporation of america, those inspections are set by fda. host: rick from pennsylvania. republican line. you are on. caller: hello. where i go boar's head is popular. are they pulling just some of the meats from boar's head or are they pulling all of them? thank you? guest: that is a great question and i would occurred you -- encourage you to ask the retailer if they have pulled the appropriate products. 7 million pounds have been recalled with certain production dates. but sometimes retailers miss them. there have been cases where they have recalled products that are still being sold. it should not be. if you are concerned at the

other thing i would encouraged -- the other thing i would encourage you to do is check your refrigerator because the sell by date is into october. if it is in your refrigerator thrown away or take it back to the retailer and be sure to clean and sanitize your refrigerator. listeria loves to grow at cold temperatures. so most pathogens if you put stuff in the refrigerator it will kill the pathogen but the pathogen will not grow anymore. listeria is not like that and it can create biofilms, and that is one of the challenges they will have in cleaning the plan. my concern is that the listeria is so well-established that there are biofilms in place and they are hard to break down once they have gotten started. host: the whole refrigerator and not just the deli been? guest: take out the entire --

clean out the entire refrigerator. clean it with warm, soapy water and have it -- and sanitize it with a bleach that she -- solution. and then wipe it down again. do not want any condensation sitting in your refrigerator. if it is there it will help it grow. host: richard blumenthal talked about this and what he wants congress to do. i want to play what he had to say and get your response. [video clip] >> 69 sector violations -- separate violations and no enforcement act. none. that is outrageous. and i want to know why. that is why i have written to the inspected general of the department of aji -- of agriculture asking for an investigation by an independent investigator. the inspector general who has the responsibility for exactly this kind of failure at the

department of agriculture. this listeria outbreak could have been prevented and should have been. the deaths and sicknesses were avoidable and i am asking the inspector general of the united states department of agriculture to tell me why there was no wood -- no effective enforcement action to close this facility and cause it to improve the facility to avoid the mildew and mold that eventually caused listeria to have this tremendous opportunity to infect the meat products that were sent around the country and eventually forced a recall of 7 million pounds of product. [end video clip] host: what do you think about the route? guest: there needs to be an investigation to understand where the breakdowns were. as i mentioned i think they are multilevel.

and i think we need to make change to ensure it does not happen again. host: cindy in kentucky. democrats line. go ahead. caller: yes and thank you for c-span and for this food safety program that you have. i moved from florida to kentucky and there is a lot of farmland around. and the only really grocery store, there is the walmart and miser and aldi and i do not like those. i have been going to kroger and there are several times that i have walked into that kroger and it smells like farms. and then i went to go in get springwater, a case of springwater and i ended up not buying >> we are leaving here to hear president biden and vice president harris talk about ending gun violence.