when it comes time for questions, please introduce yourselves by name, by institutional affiliation if you choose and think it's relevant. and then state your question. there will be no time for speeches as that would be deeply unfair to the many questions but we are going to get more than i fear we have time to accommodate. so let me begin with a question for robbie that we in fact received online which is such a perfect question that i've decided to throw it this way. here is how the question reads. please clarify the difference between two groups. the first group, christians who believe that religion has a legitimate role in public life. the second group, the people you

called christian nationalists that you have really pioneered the study of. so what are those differences? >> it's a really important question. i'm guinness a one quick thing to joy's comments about the encampments. we have now heard trump calling for an alien enemies act which would be the thing you would do to marshall those kinds and just as a reminder that act is how we got japanese internment camps in this country. this is not something we have not done before. it's not even theoretical. i just want to put that point out there. it's really important point. we have a long tradition in this country of religious groups having all kinds of appropriate influence in public life. separation of church and state but that doesn't have a separation of religious input in public life.

and our measures of christian nationalism were specifically designed to respect that difference. we designed the questions to measure christian nationalism we make sure that those were not just things about christians having influence in public life but they were about christians having dominance in public life. so when you say u.s. law should be based on the bible, that's not just influence that's dominance of one religious tradition determining law in the country or if we move from art christian traditions we won't have the country anymore. the only way we are truly american is to be christian. it's all about a kind of hierarchical view of where christians sit vis-a-vis other citizens. and we did a study in 2023 with brookings where we have a whole study looking at questions we asked, a set of five questions that we used and we also were

careful to make sure all five of those questions statistically held together so you can measure how tightly correlated they are, a very high correlation and other sophisticated factors to make sure that they hang together. one's not going this way and the other. so they're all pushing in the same direction. the content of them is all about dominance in the theocratic views. we find that it's about three in 10 americans who are in that category of holy agreeing or mostly agreeing with those statements. two thirds of the country leaning the other way. again a majority of republicans, 54% who affirm that christian nationalist view and evangelicals to affirm that. >> thank you. i am now going to move on to a series of cultural questions for

the panel as a whole. based on the survey. and the first of these cultural questions concerns the issue of crime. which i think may be a sleeper issue to some extent in this election. here's one of the findings of the survey on crime. 52% of hispanics and 50% of african-americans see crime as a critical issue. compared to only 40% of white americans. how should we understand these numbers? >> i will jump in and say because a disproportionate share of black and latino americans live in cities, live in big cities and disproportionately live in cities where crime is higher because they are under policed when it comes to

protection and over police when it comes to arrests, crime is sort of an ever present issue more so in black and brown communities. if you are a white american living in an affluent suburb, you really only think about crime is what you see on fox news in which you envision a world in which black and brown people are marauding through the streets raping and killing. that's what you view as crime. your officers are friendly, you know them by first name. they might come to sunday lunch. you don't encounter them in a friend -- unfriendly way even if your kids are smoking weed or doing harder drugs they are unlikely to be arrested for it. if they are it's more there likely to give a break or get away with non-adjudication. there are different experiences with it. we saw this with the mayor's race in new york city where black voters were heavily invested in the idea of crime-fighting because again

crime isn't really fought very much in their community and they cannot count on the police. and they are experiencing that issue in a different way. i would not read that into more support for donald trump or republicans. i think it's people reflecting their own reality. william: other reactions. >> in 2020 there was any erosion from the democratic coalition for biden among latino and black voters on this issue. you saw biden in his term repeatedly fund law enforcement in greater amounts and then say several times in the state of the union other addresses that he wanted to fund the police to try and put this defund the police slogan republicans used very effectively against democrats in 2020 two bed once and for all. because there were voters who formally voted democrat who

needed more police protection in their neighborhoods. so that was a pivot that was made several years ago by biden that was very explicit. in reaction to the data they saw out of 2020 election and i think what's also fascinating about the survey is the fact that i think social media tends to make voters enjoy -- and joy is a perfect example if you're protected from these issues but you see them on social media. when these videos are seen a people looting or crazy behavior and walgreens and crazy behavior on the subway. things are checked -- terrible elsewhere but the first to see this in the data things are moving pretty ok in my community but out there the whole nation is going to hell in a handbag. that i think is the result of people being on social media and it was so much that it was years

ago in terms of the state of the country versus the community. joy: it's ironic because fox news is right across the street from 30 rock. william: would it be fair to conclude from these numbers and your elucidation of these numbers that in minority communities nonwhite communities the call is for both more policing and better policing. >> i think there's been a very clear the charlamagne interview that came up and that was one of the issues is black communities do want to leave. who -- want police. the police are generally called from immigrant communities. largely italian american. when they were coming in, it's a working class job. irish-americans become police,

there are a lot of caribbean americans, a lot of black immigrants come in because it is a good pension job. so you have a lot of people who are police or people of color. the idea of defunding their -- the police and their own economic lives. committees of color want them in the community they just don't want them killing people over a traffic stop. so there is sort of a both ends. i also think people tend not to know the relationship of the president is to the police. they are seeing everything as the president is the quarterback of everything and they're not really understanding a different president doesn't change the police but you can do police reform which of course are republicans blocked when they tried to go to congress. >> if i may be permitted a personal note for we shift to the next topic, the president i worked for bill clinton proposed that the federal government

sponsor an additional 100,000 cops on the beat as we said at that point. you are absolutely right that it is predominantly a local function but the federal government can play a role if it chooses to. moving on now to immigration. which i believe is the issue that elected and did most to elect donald trump in 2016 and if he wins this year will be the issue that puts him over the top again. i noticed in the survey that the american people are somewhat nuanced in their response to this issue. let me tell you what i mean. we've talked about finding about poisoning the blood of our country, about one third of americans go along with that. immigrants increase crime slightly more. but immigrants in local

communities almost six in 10. so what does this tell us about where we are as a country on immigration when you strip away all of the rhetoric. is there a real issue there? joy: i am the child of two immigrants. it is -- the thing about this, the real world experience of white springfield residents is that haitian immigrants come to town and save their town because they take jobs that were badly needed to be filled. they open businesses, their upstanding members of the community. but how quickly they are easy to demonize on a couple neo-nazis at the city council say that is a source of whatever problems you have pointed those folks. and essentially suggested the death threats. when they had done nothing else other than -- and so

unfortunately immigrants, whoever they are throughout history are easy to demonize. florida tried this game and they have to root out all of these immigrants and undocumented and illegals have to go and then they tried it. and when all of the latinos who were working in farms and agriculture and doing all the construction said ok goodbye, adios. they were like weight don't go. we need you. and they were going into places like hialeah and miami and begging people to stay. because it turns out know there's not an issue. without new migration we are europe which is an aging population that got rid of money -- many of its immigrants when brexit happened. brags it screwed them over because he got rid of the people who are your nurses and doctors, if you go to paris right now,

take the africans out, paris won't function. they are doing all of the jobs. but make paris function. so it's easy to demonize people but go ahead and get rid of them. the country will not grow. we won't have a large enough workforce. we do not have a height of birthrate to sustain the replacement of workers without immigrants. so without immigrants good luck to the united states. >> one quick thing on this. i think the ideological shifts i've seen, immigration used to be approached in a more pragmatic way for the country. we had a whole effort. it did not work. and under a republican president it was going to come up with comprehensive immigration reform. that was something that was plausible and are not too distant past. and it move from pragmatism to ideology. and the other move we've seen even in 2020 and 2024 is the

move from the wall to the enemy within. that's been a different move. immigrants are out there but now that immigrants are in there. i think it's more the emphasis on that kind of fear tactics and vermin, they are not human, their animals. that kind of language as well. >> but what's encouraging and the data backs this up in your report that americans don't believe there's more crime, they are not as reactive to trumps rhetoric about vermin as republicans are. that's the general population. you guys don't have this but abc news on sunday showed 53% support up 20 points in eight years. 20 point since donald trump

became president. mass deportations in the country from internment camps. it's knocking to be our local cops because local law enforcement's mass deportation internment plan that far out sees the capacity of our local law enforcement. this is madness and americans i believe the shift, i believe it is an issue. i don't think it should be but this turning to the right is directly connected to the fact we are becoming more isolationist and when harris was on with charlamagne last night one of the questioners said why are we sending money overseas and we are broke and we have all of these needs here. that is a completely fair perspective. i think that immigration and all the crazy things they're saying on fox news and facebook feeds into that. but we are hurting in this town and maybe it's a town that has the benefit of springfield from

immigration coming in but i don't want any resources going to anyone but the residents here. what's also heartening about springfield is ohio this month said they don't believe the lies about the haitian residents. i think americans are largely still tolerant, but they are drifting to not really a fear of the other, it's not replacement theory or that their criminals it's that we don't have enough resources and we cannot defend ukraine's sovereignty and it doesn't affect us anyway. we really need to spend money at home and the same with immigrants and taking care of them. >> the reality of immigrants is not that it's harmful. that it's not a real harm to the country.

you make a really great point because there was recently an issue where a rapper went on a grant on the social media about the city of new york, this program where they were providing ebt cards to venezuelan migrants who were in shelters being shipped from florida, ron desantis went into texas, grab these venezuelan immigrants and started sending them all over the country. they have no green card that cannot work they are stuck in the shelters and because they are in the shelters they weren't eating the food it was getting thrown away and wasted because it was generic food they do not need. so the city of new york comes up with this program and it was a -- it saved the city money to give people these ebt cards where they can go to local bodegas and stores and buy the food they wanted. people are actually eating it.

and he goes on his social media and does what you're talking about and says you see that, the hood cannot get any money. lack communities are struggling and they are taking this money and a set of spending it on us theorist set bending it on these illegals. this is the way the right-wing media is turning black and brown people against each other and even some latinos, those immigrants are criminals. my family or not but they are criminals and all the money is going to them. it turns out the ebt cards were created by a black company that innovated the specific kind of card that is easy for people to get and use if there on bank. this is a black business that was benefiting from a program that saved the city money and actually cut the expenses of taxpayers. so when you tease it out it turns out it was the opposite of what he was saying. this was helping the community

and it then turns out the money was being used is completely separate from any money that is going to african-american communities. it is disinformation. >> i have so many more questions and i'm very reluctant to interrupt the spirited exchange on the hottest issue in american politics. but you've been patient for 75 minutes and now it is your turn. we will start with the gentleman right here on the aisle and the roving mike will reach you now. >> this may be off topic a little bit but these findings about gender and the country getting softer does that have any implication in business where we want more women ceos especially in the tech sector? >> i would just say if you look at young people, women are more likely to go to college and actually would recommend to your listeners the battery of questions about america's

attitude that was interesting that we did not get a chance to talk about. i suspect that part of the gender divide when it comes to college is really making college less appealing. there's a history of studies and sociology that finds once application for more feminized men don't want have anything to do with them and also the salaries go down. but i do think in terms of trying to get more women to embark on those kinds of stem careers i think what often happens in american society, women are often waiting to have kids if they are having them at all so it's really hard to know sociologically that women are still doing the double shift at home. and so i do think we still have to reckon with women's full participation in the economy in certain fields. and i think that's feeding into the narrative about all the

troubles we have in america becoming less strong and we let women take control. women's gains of, of the expense of men. one thing we hear all the time and see it showing up. it's pretty troubling because it's again a lot of women have made and is been hard-fought. a lot of the self-esteem and confidence and young girls to achieve the sorts of things. i do think there are many indicators showing young men are falling behind, i think we can address those problems. but certainly we are still mired in these important conversations by gender. >> way in the back. >> hello. i am a journalism student, my question is for joy. i am a big fan. i was just wondering what can someone you guys talk about so many important issues, big

issues. as a college student i can speak about of people my age that we want to do something about this. i'm 20 years old what can i do about this. what would your advice be to young people who are engaged and involved to help make sure our country ends up ok. >> thank you for the question and congratulations on making it here today. being interested in these kinds of conversations shows that you are ready a leader. i always say even if you're not old enough to vote you have a voice and your generation are the most connected and the most amplified generation in history. you all have access to that phone in which you can speak to multitudes whether it's a few hundred of your own followers which can be amplified to thousands to people your age to potentially millions of people. you have the equivalent of a

show on msnbc for a lot of these people. i think the most important thing is to keep talking, keep communicating. especially young women. this is an age. back when i was in college there was an album of public enemy and now i think there is a fear of a planet in which women are truly equal. i think in particularly women of color who are already on need to have these conversations. white women as well. white women are still the one group of women who are tending to side with the side that wants to suppress them. so i think having those conversations and being vocal and staying informed and doing what you are doing. >> also vote please. >> sorry. >> i think one of the things that would be fantastic for

democracy and i want -- bill clinton talked about it. universal voter registration would be game changing in this country. if we didn't have to have these fights over who gets to register its automatically people became registered and were able to vote i think it would change so much. >> i would quickly add the most because you are more dust you are globally connected and community minded in your generation more than anyone us before us, you have a real opportunity to really lean on political reform. so joy makes a very important point. talking about these issues and ways whether it's how we can vote more easily to also how we can mitigate the effects of gerrymandering, final four voting. all these things that open up the system it depends on your generation and that's a way for young women who are politically

engaged to talk to young men who are politically engaged not about leaders of the parties but about ideas and policies and reforms as a way not to fight and a way to converse. and build more trust. >> also consider running for office pray there more than 500,000 elected positions and it's always been a challenge getting women to run more generally and a lot of collecting shows a lot of people are out there running for office. can't make policy changes until you have an elected position. think about running for local office. it makes a huge difference and we need more women to do it. >> we need a microphone upfront here. >> thank you bill for doing such an awesome job here. i could not resist asking you a question. i have to say. i want to sort of directed to maybe in particular on the data because we've been saying we a lot and we americans about immigration but in some ways i found most depressing about

these numbers is the collapse of the possibility of bipartisanship on behalf of a pragmatic solution. the warning of our traditional question here really closely matches i think it's fair to say george h. w. bush is immigration plan. it was a plan supported by john mccain. it was for a while by marco rubio. more republicans in congress who supported that kind of position and when you look at our numbers on that to kill a question 36% of republicans. the collapse is farm -- from republicans from 53 to 36. still a majority. i would suspect that it is republican leaning independents and the democrats of gone up. the question is about political leadership because while i agree what i wanted to disentangle was how much is this increasing concern about immigration

working about immigration across the board versus republican. i want to ask a lot of this is the influence of donald trump's rhetoric and campaign and i think it's influenced the view of people who have chosen to stay in the republican party. what would you see going forward about these numbers. how much do you think these reflect the trump influence on the republican party and what opening is there for pro-immigration republicans and conservatives, there used to be quite a lot of those. thank you all very much. >> i want to be hopeful that if donald trump is done with at some point in his party, because it is such a cult attraction that there will be an opening not -- a pragmatic pro-immigration reform champion with the passing citizenship at more reasonable perspectives on immigration and solution seeking

to try and find a voice because right now they just want the base of the republican party wants trump and they are not going to stand at a rally site for four days in advance wearing t-shirts for jd vance. it is not the same thing. i hope there is an opening for different perspectives we cannot see right now if that day is going to come. but generally yes, i remember republicans saying yes or republicans came to the table and wanted to work with democrats but it was still a promise with their base. it's -- this move to the missile -- middle has become an issue if trump wins the election democrats will be very upset about what could've been done what should have been done. that is a problem. i think it's stirred up the base

rate he has not changed a lot of minds. the republicans -- i'm eating marbles today. the republican electoral pretending they agree with trump who definitely would like to go right back on some kind of reform but for now they are completely quiet. >> two different things from the data. from that number. >> it's a majority. i think it's 53. low 50's and gone up. >> we've seen this in our data would you ask separately you get much higher numbers. with three options which is immigrants living illegally in the country, should we allow them to be permanent legal residents or should we deport them. you ask that way deportation is 25%. when they have other options on the table. that goes to the pragmatism, i think the biggest thing is there

is this sense for republicans in particular there is a sense of the kind of chaos versus order dynamic we saw in focus groups and in our data recently you may remember we had several versions of the question. and the more requirements we put in the question, the higher republicans -- you had to learn english, pay back taxes. every time we added a requirement republican support went up and when we took any mention of requirement out and the current question providing certain requirements but we took that out altogether. so there is that pragmatism thing. the bigger question is when you've been painted a picture that immigration is an invasion, chaos at the border, that undermines any sense of pragmatism and problem solving. and you've undermined t