today. we will be back with another edition of washington journal starting at 7:00 a.m. eastern tomorrow. hope you will tune in then, and have a great day. ♪ >> c-span's washington journal, a live forum involving you to discuss the latest issues in government, politics, and public policy. from washington dc to across the country. sunday morning, we will discuss the incoming trump administration and other political news of the day with a republican strategist, adam goodman, and a democratic strategist, michael barroso. and a professor will join us to

talk about the history of mass deportations in america, including the eisenhower era campaign, operation wetback, and donald trump's plan to deport millions of undocumented immigrants. join live at 7:00 a.m. sunday morning at c-span, c-span live, or online at c-span.org. cgress returns on monday following the thanksgiving holiday brk r a busy month ahead. thhouse and senate are facing a goveme funding deadline and must pass additional federal spending legislation by february 22 avert a set down -- i shut down. both plan to vote on the request of emergency disasterelf or hurricane victims over the next few weeks. ngress will also take up the final version of an annual defense programs and policy bill. house speaker johnson and senate majority leader schumer both spoke about these must-pass bills that their chambers plan to vote on before adjourning for

the year. >> we have a disaster relief package that has been presented by the biden administration, a request. i want to point out, even before hurricanes milton and h elene hit sure, republicans provided funds to fema. now that we are back in session, we will continue to provide for the american people with resources that are desperately needed. i saw firsthand. i went to the sides of the devastation. i went to florida where helene made landfall. all the way inland even to the agricultural areas. i spent a lot of time in western north carolina, where it looks like a bomb went off and most of those areas. these communities can be rebuilt responsibly. congress has a role to play. we will be looking at all that. >> when the senate returns after thanksgiving, senators can expect a busy few weeks to

finish our work before the end of the year. both sides must continue working together to keep the government open beyond the december 20 deadline. letting the government shut down just before christmas would be asinine, plain and simple. nobody wants that to happen. well, there may you feeling the other chamber who do, but they are a distinct minority. we must pass the annual defense authorization bill to provide for our troops and hold the line against america's adversaries abroad. we passed the ndaa every year over the last six decades. with so much going on around the world in the middle east, the indo pacific, europe, and beyond, passing the ndaa is as critical ast's ever been and wed to get it done. >> watch live coverage of the house on c-span, the senate on c-span two, and all of our congressional coverage without free video app c-span now or online at c-span.org. >> c-span is your unfiltered

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chosen those with controversial opinions. we want to know your thoughts. should scientists take more or less active role in policy debate? for democrats, call in on (202) 748-8000. for republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002. and we have a special line for scientists. if you are a member of the scientific community, call us at (202) 748-8003. that is also where you can text us, if you would like to reach us that way. please be sure to include your name and where you are writing in from. if you would like to contact us on social media, we are at facebook.com/cspan or at x at @cspanwj. for an overview of the choices president electron has made -- president-elect trump has made,

there is an article on pbs news. he assembled -- to fulfill an agenda aimed at remaking how the federal government oversees medicine, health programs, and nutrition. tuesday night, trump nominated -- tapping an opponent of pandemic lockdowns and vaccine mandates. he is the latest in a string of trump nominees who are critics of covid-19 health measures. he and the other nominees are expected to implement robert f. kennedy, jr.'s sprawling make america healthy agenda, which includes rooting out conflict of interest at agencies and inventors -- incentivizing healthier foods at school lunches and other nutrition programs. trump nominated kennedy to head

the department of health and human services, which oversees nih and other federal health disease. the -- and i a well-known wellness and lifestyle influencer. the pick for the food and drug administration and the pick for surgeon general had been frequent fox news jupiters. at the new york times, they point out recent surveys from pew research that found americans have regained modest trust in scientists, according to that survey, yet a sharp partisan divide remains over how involved researchers should be in policy decisions. some details from that survey, shld take an active role in public policy debates about scientific issues. by contrasrly many,

48%, say they should focused on establishing sound scientific ctand stay out of public policyebes. americans also are not cvied scientists make that are policy decisions on science issues than othepele. just 43% think this is the case. more from the research related -- pew research relatedn the confidence scientists act in the public interest. 88% compared to 66%. republicans overael of confidence in scientists is up ercentageoints compared wiear ago, the first uptick in trust among republican since the start of the pandemic. that research from pew. let's go to your calls, starting with ed in georgia on our line

for republicans. good morning. caller: good morning. everything should be designed to be functional. a lot of problems with scientists is they disagree with each other. i think it is good to have a scientist run for election to be in the house or senate. that would help. but i think everything has to be proven before you go ahead. host: what do you think about scientists in key positions in federal agencies compared to the folks president-elect trump has chosen? caller: i have to ask you a question. are those people paid to be in there? host: usually, those positions are paid positions in the federal government, yes. caller: yeah, it's kind of iffy, it really is.

you know, i don't want to go too far. i just want to make sure that everybody kind of agrees that the solution is there at the time. if it's a good solution, i'm all for it. thank you. host: thank you for your call. ralph is on our line for democrats. caller: yes, i wanted to talk a little bit about robert f kennedy and his association with this group called tilden's health defense -- children's health defense. he actually runs it, i think, and fundraisers for the children's health defense organization. it is a nonprofit, i believe. i am looking up here, if you look it up on wikipedia, it says the children's health defense is an american nonprofit activist

group mainly known for anti-vaccine disinformation, which has been called one of the main sources of disinformation on vaccines. to me, kennedy's is going to have to be asked about his position on vaccines and his position on the covid vaccine. i don't know if you can get through. i don't know how he would answer those questions -- host: if you do not mind, for a moment, i will read an article from politico that has to do with his positions on vaccines. this is from november 22. kennedy's make america healthy cancer team includes anti-vaccine activists. at least three formal advisors connected to the anti-vaccine movement are assisting kennedy in filling out his staff as he prepares to lead hhs. at least three informal advisors

enacted to the anti-vaccine movement are assisting kennedy in filling out his staff as he leads the agency, according to five people familiar with the matter. documents obtained by politoco highlight kennedy's association with the movement and its potential influence within the nation's leading health agency, if years confirmed as secretary. i believe that group you mentioned -- yes, in an email obtained by politico, a kennedy ally reached out to a potential candidate, identifying herself as part of the make america healthy again transition team. she is the president of the hawaii chapter of children's health defense, a leading anti-vaccine group that committee chaired until he resigned in 2023 to run for president. she also let the present -- the

-- caller: yes, i am looking at the wikipedia article, and it says here that they are a leading source of this misinformation on vaccines. then the footnote is a majority -- this is one article -- the majority of anti-vaccine ads on facebook were funded by two groups -- that's the washington post -- and then they talk about fluoride in drinking water. i guess they want to remove fluoride from the drinking water. this has been a conspiracy theory since the 1950's, 1960's? host: and what do you think about the role scientists should be playing in policy debate? caller: well, i would have preferred a medical person rather than kennedy. i would have preferred someone who was either worked in the medical field, either a doctor

or hospital person or a public health expert. whereas i think robert f. kennedy is kind of like a -- what would you call it? an amateur at it. i do not know if you can get through the confirmation. what is he going to say, that we should not be vaccinating against polio, measles, whooping cough? all the childhood diseases? he would reject vaccines entirely? i think that would be disastrous. host: let's get to another caller. i will remind folks, the lines for democrats, (202) 748-8000. for republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents at (202) 748-8002. and our special line for scientists, (202) 748-8003. let's go to gregory in north carolina on our line for republicans. good morning. caller: yeah, i think scientists

should have a more active role in politics. -- this has come up with more of a little -- the government are holding them back, so to speak. host: gregory, i would like to ask you about some of this research from pew, in particular finding that confidence in scientists remains higher among democrats than republicans.

you're saying scientists should play a larger role, if i understand you correctly. what do you think about this disconnect between republicans and democrats on the role scientists should be playing in policy? caller: well, i think -- i think the federal government is holding back. i don't know which party's holding back. but i think they're holding back on some of these drugs that the scientists is creating. i think scientists should have moral in politics, so the drugs

can come more out to the public. host: ok. joe is in tampa on our line for independents. good morning. caller: good morning. the one thing i want to say is i think there is an abuse of scientific knowledge and technology, an example being surveillance technology and things like that. i think we have to invoke the second amendment to protect people when the government, when law enforcement abuses surveillance technology. i think there is a lack of transparency, to have access to have the public have access to the scientists, for that scientific knowledge, that ecological capability that can be abused by law enforcement. i think invoking this economic to protect people from the abuser surveillance technology -- surveillance technology is being used illegally in the united states. you have to be able to access

those scientists and be able to say there is law enforcement or somebody abusing this technology, it is probably a secret version of acer -- of a surveillance technology or technological capability. if you do not have those kind of checks and balances, you will have law enforcement and intelligence services make an excuse that they should use this, that they are allowed to use this. so you have abuse of this type of technology, and their abuse is we suspect this person is a threat, and this technology is too important. i think there is a lack of transparency and we should be able to invoke the second amendment to protect people from abuses of surveillance technology and other types of technology are likely used for good reasons. obviously, they should be secret, but you cannot use that excuse to abuse that technology and use it illegally, especially on u.s. soil on people who are not a threat. host: marty is in ohio, on our

line for republicans. good morning. caller: hi. host: what do you think the role scientists should play in policy debate? caller: well, if they are authentic scientists. the problem recently, from what i see, is people posing as scientists that are actually marketing vaccines that are dangerous. my sister just died last month from the vaccine. host: i am very sorry about the loss of your sister. marty, if i could just ask -- we've lost marty. let's go to john on our line for democrats. good morning. caller: good morning. my issue is -- i wonder if people should know what science is. science is a method. you know, anybody that uses the

scientific method is actually a scientist, so at least everyone that calls should understand those intervals -- principles. for instance, the first thing is what is a hypothesis? an idea. the second thing is that, if you prove your hypothesis, it should be able to be replicated. host: so if you believe that everybody, as long as they understand the scientific method, should be considered a scientist, what do you think should be deterred -- should be the determining role on whether or not someone should be scientifically qualified to be active in policy debate or maybe even a position in the administration? caller: once again, i go back to the basic principles of the scientific method. people should understand the history and the evolution of the

scientific method. it's a process. you have to understand what a hypothesis is, what your idea is. your ideas not necessarily the truth. it is a hypothesis. therefore, you develop ways of testing your idea. and if it comes up in that moment that your idea is true or valid, then anyone else should be able to use the same techniques that you used and come up with the same conclusion. host: ok. let's look at comments we received on social media. on facebook, phil king, who identifies as an independent from michigan, says it depends on what type of scientist and what policy you ardiscussing. on the whole, i'd say no. scientists are usually focused

their own corner of knowledge only. sh mays on facebook says the so-called scientists proved himself to be political in nature and not truth seekers they betrayed the trust of the people countless times, bu especially covid. the politically favored scientists are not to be trusted. lucy howard says scientists need e a primary role in policy debates. women are dying in states like texas because they cannot get the health care they need. climate change is real, ande need scientists to help us formulate policy that will help us design infrastructure for ecologically sustainable communities. let's get back to your calls on whether scientists should take a more or ctive role in policy debates. thomas is in south dakota on our or independents. good morning. caller: thank yy much. you do a fantastic job, and i

really appreciate c-span. host: thank you. caller: you're welcome. i first of all want to clarify i worked for mr. kennedy's presidential campaign from february all the way throughout the year. the answer to your question, should scientists take a major role or not, i think the debate is on now anyway, and i do think, as the gentleman called prior, get active, run for congress, some of them. overall, mr. kennedy's selection is a good one. he has an excellent record with the water alliance group he has worked with. i believe things will work out. america seems to work on a crisis mode, and we will be able to have the vaccines that we

need to keep. i really believe that. host: if i can ask you, how did robert f. kennedy junior's positions on health care your decisions to support him? caller: health care? health care, basically, i think it will be the woman's issues, the reproductive rights issue, that view there. but i see a more bigger picture, i guess. the reason i supported mr. kennedy was not in relation to the covid -- the autism questions people have. it was more of -- i am spearing off the debate a bit -- his

views on the military-industrial compact, which does relate to what we are talking about a bit. but overall, i believe he will do a good job, and when they come to a major problem, i think the rationale -- rationality will prevail. i do think scientists should take a moral, and even run for congress, some of them. that's all i'll say today. greatly appreciate the chance to visit. host: robert f. kennedy, jr. did an interview with nbc after the election, talking about his role in overseeing america's public health agencies. let's listen to a bit. [video clip] >> he is very specific about what he wants me to do. one, clean up corruption at the agencies, particularly the conflict of interest that have turned those agencies into captive agencies for the

pharmaceutical industry and the food industry, the other industries that they are supposed to be regulating. number two, to return those agencies to the gold standard science, empirically based, evidence-based medicine, that they were famous for when i was a kid. number three, to make america healthy again. to end the pandemic, and president trump has told me he wants to see measurable the measurement in child prognosis sees. host: kevin on our line for democrats. caller: hi. i think the issue is conflating science with debates. there is a science within debate, but that should not be part of what legislatures decide to do with facts presented by science. this concept that a politician is as smart as a scientist, who

has been working in his field for so long and follows standard scientific method practices to develop evidence, puts them far ahead of legislatures. once we agree what is the issue at hand, then i agree, legislatures should debate on the best way to address it. but to conflate the two and even assume that a layperson or even a learned politician, who probably is getting information from the wrong sources, is equal to a scientist who's practiced in his field is a waste of our time. we are at sea, and the main reason is our president feels that he knows everything. everyone says, if you knows that, then i know that. we're all bowing to the wrong totem there. we should respect people for the work they do. we should respect other industries for what they have been doing for us for on words of 100 years.

i think the dumbing down of the world is not serving anyone. host: ronald in louisiana on our line for republicans. good morning. caller: yes, good morning. host: what role do you think scientists should be playing in policy debate? caller: scientists should be invalid, but they should be part of what the decision is. one thing about scientists. if one finds one thing but another find another thing, that is where discussion comes. for example, global warming. you have so much different viewpoints about global warming and global change and all this and that. host: i'm listening to you, ronald. caller: ok, i saw your mouth moving on tv. anyway, going back to the global warming point, there is always

another viewpoint. ok? and i can say right here and tell you the way they see it and the way i see it, and the way another person sees it. that's another thing. that is what kennedy's about. kennedy is not against vaccination, ok? to give an example, there was some vaccination years ago that we would give children. and the children, in one day or today or three days, the ended up autistic. doctors started giving out those shots in two, like they would give you have one week and then give you another one. all of a sudden, they did not see that no more. ok? the vaccination was good, but it was not good for that particular child. and then it did not affect another child -- host: so i want to read you a

couple of things related to vaccines and policy. this is from a bbc article. it highlights that kennedy said in an npr interview that vaccines are not going to be taken away from anybody. he says he wants to improve the science on vaccine safety, which he believes has huge deficits, and he wants good information, so people can make informed choices. but his critique of the vaccine safety regime has been roundly dismissed by experts. while kennedy has denied on several occasions he is anti-vaccination and said he and his children are vaccinated, he has repeatedly stated widely debunked claims about vaccine harm pier 1 of his main false claims repeated in an interview with fox news was that autism comes from vaccines. this theory was popularized by eight discredited u.k. dr.,

andrew wakefield. his 1988 study was later retracted by the lancet medical journal. multiple studies since have concluded there is no link between vaccines and autism. you brought up there can be differing opinions within the scientific community on things. earlier, you mentioned jaime change as well. when you have situations like this, where there seems -- you mentioned climate change as well. when you have situations like this, where there seems to be one opinion versus another, how do you process that? caller: in other words, the majority supposed to say they are right but the minority have no voice? you understand? you just raised the perfect example, going back to my original thought on vaccination and autism. well, they had another one

that had nothing shows. answer me this. why did those children end up with that? the minority have no voice. you see what i'm saying? host: i do. let's hear from scott from virginia on our line for independents. caller: good morning. my father was a scientist. he had a phd. i was raised to understand a lot about science. science has a history with politics. sometimes, there is mistakes. like george washington, the doctor said let's bleed the bad blood out, because that was leading science of the time. what we are looking at now with trump is there is an undermining of science. i think that is dangerous. who are the people backing him? big oil, religion, people in the

particular right wing christian religion are backing him here what do they want to do? undermine science. we've had this issue going on for a long time, with modern science. and they're using the technology scientists created to get this message out that undermines science. i would say, if someone goes to a doctor, they want that doctor to have all the training, although scientific backing to save their life. they don't go to a witch doctor and say perform a voodoo ritual. to me, trump is right there with the witch doctor. he does not know what he is doing, and he is getting all these cabinet people who are television personality's. they do not know anything about science. there is something going on under the surface that is supporting trump, and they have an agenda for money, to make money. they're like, let the world go

into global warming, and they will profit in it in some way. host: ok. ray in pittsburgh on our line for democrats. caller: good morning, how are you doing? host: good, thank you. caller: i really believe the problem is not that there scientists, it is people who have opinions. and opinions is not science. i hear politicians say all the time it is my belief belief thas is this and that is that. they are not scientists. everyone has opinions. opinions is not science. to put it in other words, politicians get into what science is, and they are not really knowing what science is. i don't know about scientists taking leading action in policy, but you've got to have people making the policy who believe

that science is good and science has the right answers, and not people who think that their beliefs that science is no good telling other people science is no good. as far as kennedy is concerned, he is changing his opinions from the time he was anti-vax, now to say vax is ok sometimes. he is changing like a politician now. the one funny thing i want to tell you is, the fluoride in water, that was the cause for the end of the world in the movie "dr. strangelove." they should play that clip about the fluoride in the water. i thought that was humorous. i thought about that when he started talking about fluoride in the water and that movie. that's pre-much my point. -- pretty much my point.

host: on facebook in response to the question of whether scientists should play more or less active role in policy debates, no, let them do their job studying and discovering but providing the public with the findings. we are all capable of reading and deciding for ourselves. sabrina sa, i've always said there should be more scientists, historians and public serce including congress, instead of bunesspeople, lawyers, career politicians, and the superrich as they have eroded our political system to the point we are at currently. one of the policy priorities that has been laid out by robert f. kennedy, jr. in terms of what he might do is confirmed as -- if confirmed as the head of health and human services is tackle americans relationship with food. this is the front page of the wall street journal's review section in an article. we battle big food.

can rfk junior succeed where we failed? two former top health officials say that kennedy can make america healthy again if he is willing to take on soda companies, alter a food -- ultra processed foods, farm subsidies and processes that shape the way we eat. among what is written, kennedy is right that food is driving epidemics of chronic disease. unhealthy food now competes with smoking for the title of the leading underlying killer in america contributing to heart disease, stroke, diabetes, and cancer. today, nearly half of americans have high blood pressure, three quarters are obese or overweight, and 15% have type two diabetes. if kennedy wants americans to have healthier diets, he would be nsync with every doctor across america, including the two of us. we have worked in many roles and fought many tough battles over food. goes on to lay out some of the

challenges, including some of the issues with the broader food systems in the united states. that is in the wall street journal's review section. let's hear from donald in spokane, washington on our line for republicans. good morning, donald. [dialtone] host: we have lost you, donald. from bronx, new york on the line for independents. caller: good morning. this is divine from the bronx. i was critical of rfk, but i support the fact that he wants to drain out the information about vaccines. host: the department of health

and human services if confirmed by the senate. caller: right. he should be able to give us all the facts of all the doubts we were having about vaccines before, or he should be able to prove vaccines actually work the way they should. so, this is one thing i was saying that i used the guy gary noel, who rfk is acquainted with, and he is a vexing critic, not an admirer. he is a vaccine critic. very good reasons as to why some of the vaccines cut and didn't work. since rfk is head, he should be able to let out the information that this guy was criticizing and squash the debate. also, this guy was also talking

about all of the processed foods we are eating and why we shouldn't be eating them and stuff. if rfk will help us get healthier and cut out corporate junk foods, why not? i think the fact that trump is president, willing to give rfk a chance to see what he can do on our health policy. but i'm afraid that since he is with trump he is going to be racist and upset brown and black people in the worst ways. host: we had on our program the former nih director of health francis collins who was a director on our q and a program earlier this fall to talk about his book on wisdom on

truth, science, faith, and trust and talked a bit about vaccine skepticism. [video clip] >> dr. collins, do you see robert f. kennedy, jr. in his efforts with regards to vaccines as dangerous? >> yes, i do. he is capable of putting forward information thdemonstrably false, getting with the idea that vaccines have something to do with autism, which is one of the most clearly debunked claims that has ever been made about a connection between a medical procedure and an outcome. he continues to cast doubt on vaccines for childhood illnesses, which is more and more people believe those we will see children die of measles, looking cough, and conditions we had pretty much eliminated on the -- whooping cough, and conditions we had pretty much eliminated on falsified estimates of what the risks are of those vaccines. rfk junior, for whatever reason, has identified himself with a

set of ideas that are clearly not compatible with truth, and yet sound compelling because he can quote a lot of data. mostly from second or third rate journalists who have been pretty much disqualified and debunked. people tend to go along because we are right now a society that is distrustful of everything, and particularly distrustful of expertise if it happens to be something that looks like an elite. if you want information about your health, don't you want it from someone who studied that issue for 15 or 20 years who has an appropriate degree and understands the nuances of medicine? those days those are the suspicious people and someone who just posted something on the internet or rfk junior are seen us on helping the ones you can rely on. america, what happened to us? how did we forget the principles

of how we maintained a good repertory of established facts and depend on those? don't begin to throw those out the window when suddenly it is a fact that we don't like or it makes us uncomfortable. truth doesn't care how you feel about it. it is just truth. host: your calls onto weather scientists should play a more or less active role in policy debate, ted is in ocean view, hawaii on the line for democrats. good morning, ted. caller: good evening. it is still evening in hawaii. i have been listening to the different people on the subject. a lot of people don't understand that when doctors or scientists give an estimate of effectiveness, it is an estimate of effectiveness. there are always different

things that come up that break that effectiveness. they will say that this is 82% effective, and it is. if you happen to be in that group of 18% to 20% that isn't in there, you are feeling betrayed. people need to think about that. nothing is perfect. even -- for example, a metaphor, the educational department has a set of parameters to educate people. i will not delve too far into this but it is a good metaphor, that using this method of teaching is so effective may be somewhere between 71% and 75% effective, but a lot of people are not in that group. when you are teaching with a method, methodology, and i have several teachers in my family that i talk to about this, there are people left out because they

don't fit in that category. so, you are 88% effective. 12% is a huge number in our population. millions of people is left out, which is why they have alternative schools to make it fit better. it is similar with the scientists. they can only be so perfect. everybody needs to remember that. you go with the best number you can, and then you make allowances for those who don't fit in that category. if you understand my train of thought as far as believing a scientist, i started in the solar industry to help because they said it is getting bad in 1973. i started doing solar and i drove a car that got 40 miles to the gallon. someday, everyone will do that. now we are.

i just had to wait 50 years for it to come about because people are a little slow sometimes, groups. i wanted to show people that yes, you can believe scientists, but there are exceptions to the obvious. host: ted was talking about whether or not people believe in science and scientists. a doctor from the bipartisan policy center was a guest on this program earlier this week and spoke about the results that we mentioned at the top of the show from pew research showing that democrats trust science more than republicans. [video clip] >> it is concerning. i will say the silver lining in pew's latest poll, for the first time since the pandemic those numbers have come up, particularly for republicans, which is important so we don't have the diversions by party. it is important that there be trust in science, and public

health. it goes both ways. how can scientists and public health officials and medical officials better connect with the public and make sure they are communicating in the right way to demonstrate and -- demonstrate empathy and when the science changes they are able to communicate that. host: rob is in kansas on the line for republicans, good morning, rob. caller: good morning. how are you guys today? host: good, thank you. caller: like dr. collins was saying, the statements on truth, are we sitting here complaining and not researching it ourselv es. lodging fox, msnbc, cnn, washington journal for your update? the more research you do,

probably the better off you are. secondly, science. i think more democrats or liberals believe -- how many genders are there. you guys are always talking about science. how many genders are there? i get a little upset just watching this show. we get called racist all the time as far as being republicans. you know, i don't think we called the other side that much names. yeah, basically every time i have to watch this show -- i only want it once or twice a month. keep up the work, god bless america, hope you had a happy thanksgiving. host: the hill has an article, why is rfk junior under attack for questioning a broken system? and points to some of the issues that the caller was raising.

if you are a heavy consumer of legacy media you probably believe that president-elect trump's nomination of rfk junior to serve the secretary of health and human services was as shocking as it was dangerous. the legacy media, big pharma, and some in the medical establishment have moved quickly to stop rfk junior's nomination through a coordinated smear campaign. let's hear from david in los angeles, california on our line for independents. good morning, david. caller: how is it going? host: good, thank you. caller: i want to share truth with your viewers. rfk junior played a part in one of the worst measles outbreak in recent history. you can look it up. in 2018 nurses accidentally prepared a combined measles vaccine with an expired muscle relaxant rather than water. kennedy's defense group walked

into this mistrust, met with the somali prime minister, and flooded the area with misinformation. the next year there was a huge measles outbreak on the island and the disease tore through the population, sickening close to 6000 people, killing 83. most of them young children. host: if you don't mind, i'm going to read a bit from the guardian about this story that you are mentioning. the headline on this story, which is from november 25 of this year, we learned the hard way. samoa remembers the deadly measles outbreak and a visit from rfk junior four months before the outbreak in 2019. kennedy traveled to samoa and met with anti-vaccine figures, contributing to what health experts claim was a significant disinformation campaign. the week before her three children died, she and her husband took them for a swim in a river flowing behind their

house in the samoan village. the next day, they went to the hospital. i will scroll down. in that small island country of samoa, lives have been altered by an outbreak of the disease in 2019 that caused at least 83 deaths and 1867 hospitalizations, mostly of babies and young children. thousands more fell sick. the preventable illness was able to spread through the closely net population due to a record low vaccination rate stemming from a medical vaccination error here this moment government's public-health mismanagement, and fueled by anti-vaccine sentiment, including by donald trump's pick to lead the u.s. health department, robert f. kennedy, jr.. this is the story that i guess you are referencing, david? caller: can i make one last closing statement? trump's endorsement of this quackery, this snake oil

treatment, anti-vaccine partisans like robert f. kennedy, jr. makes him a threat to the public. i want to tell your trump supporters who voted for trump, you got what you asked for. host: mary is in lincoln, nebraska on our line for democrats. good morning, mary. caller: good morning. i want to mention that i have a degree in health care science. what i learned 40 years ago when i got my degree has changed vastly. vastly. the reason is, science is ever-changing. we have scientists who are diligent, working people every day always looking for a way to enter -- for a way to better our everything. to dispute that, like rfk is doing, i feel it is on his behalf a theory. it is not based on education and fact and trials and errors, and one thing and another.

in health care, we rely on the cdc a lot. good things. so, i have no problem with going along with someone who makes sense. to me, donald trump saying that he wants rfk to head this department and go wild makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. i cringe. for the sake of all people. host: mary, you mentioned something that several other folks have alluded to. what you learned earlier in your scientific career has changed and there is new information in science that has changed. sometimes when people hear that scientists used to say one thing and now say something different, that undermines their faith in what scientists are saying. how do you think that people should balance that information? caller: my approach is, i say, yes, you know, take your lawnmower. you used to use spark plugs and

now you use something else to make that thing run. everything is always changing. in our minds we always hope for the better. maybe you plan for the worst, but you always hope for the better. so, sometimes things were not developed or discovered 40 years ago. now, they are. maybe they were known but not refined. it takes the fda years to just pass one drug. people may not know that. something doesn't walk in and say this is medication for this or that and put it on the shelf tomorrow. these things are tested, tried, and finally marketed over a long span of time. the thing people need to think of is nothing in time stays the

same. things change and they progress. are we still driving model to use? no, we're not -- still driving model t's? no, we are not. hopefully now some things that they thought were good have been eliminated and some things they think are better have been brought out. to have people spreading theories, listen, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. host: ok, mary. you mentioned the fda. we had the fda administrator nominee dr. marty mcgarry as a guest on washington journal this fall to talk about his book blind spots, when medicine gets it wrong and what it means for our help. let's listen to a portion. [video clip] >> we have to deal with the root causes. we've got to deal with good scientific standards for our

recommendations, and we've got to promote clinical excellence. so, increasingly you are seeing doctors go directly to the public and explain things in ways they can understand it. presenting the latest scientific research is what i'm trying to do in the book blind spots. we need a civil discourse. in the past there was a feeling that we should only have one position as a medical field. that is what the small group of people at the top of the medical establishment believed. an open civil discourse among medical expert is not only important, it is how we learn and grow as a field and we should evolve our position as information comes in. i believe in civil discourse and in civil discourse not only medical science, the society at large. there is a lot of agreement in america. if we can turn off the

polarization of all of these voices and the echo chambers, we can see we all want the same things. we want to address chronic diseases. we want to address childhood obesity. we want to address our food supply to live healthier. we want to lower the cost of health care. it is now 48% of all federal spending going to health care through official direct forms and through indirect, hidden ways. we can increase spending or cut the waste and focus on promoting health and stop just dealing with a sickness business and instead actively promote health based on good, clinical research. host: back to your calls. stephanie and south carolina on the line for republicans. good morning, stephanie. caller: hi, there. i am actually so happy that these conversations are happening now. i think it's a really good. it brings up a lot of controversy, especially with the

vaccine topic and rfk. sidelining and talking about big food and what he is going to do, i think most people can get behind him on that. cleaning up america's food. if we look at what is happening in europe and how they have regulations, the artificial ingredients and different chemicals that are not allowed in the food compared to what the u.s. does right now in our food system, it's ridiculous. i am a mom of four, and i'm excited this is something we will hopefully get change on. in europe and you see how you can eat food there, you feel better, it is cleaner, they are more connected to the farms. here, and public schools, all of the kids are fed processed foods and it is toxic. that is why there is so much chronic disease. host: i want to stay with you, but i want to read more of the

wall street journal article that i referenced earlier about this topic. it says, americans are not your responsible gluttons and it is not that we hate the taste of healthy food. in one study people locked in a food lab for months were just as happy with healthy food that made them lose weight as helping -- as well as unhealthy foods that make them gain weight. americans unhealthy diets reflect how foods are designed, produced, sold, and marketed. most food in american grocery stores don't grow in the ground they are ultra-processed foods produced in factories. that process involves adding salt, sugar, and fact that humans are biologically programmed to like so all of us find it difficult to resist these foods. some would say that they are addictive. in addition, unhealthy products like sodas, chips, cookies are cheap and placed in highly visible, easily reachable spots and groceries and many retail

stores to stimulate impulse purchases. and, they are heavily advertised. all of these marketing techniques work. that seems to align with what you're talking about, your experience, stephanie? caller: absolutely. the way that these companies are marketing to kids is completely wrong. these bright colors that they are using in the usa versus real food, things like spear -- spirilina and beets to color their food in europe, when rfk exposes this -- there is a kellogg's been going on because mom -- ban going on because mom's are sick of it. we shouldn't be giving our children poison. america should not have to worry. we should be able to go to the grocery store and get safer food. that is where we need government and science to protect us and protect our children. i think this is great. i think the vaccine conversation is good.

rfk has said again and again he is not against vaccines.everyone who is worried about that, he needs to be more of a topic. there are mothers out there who have vaccine-injured kids, and they don't get a voice. vaccine safety needs to be talked about. it is not about people -- the first thing people say is you are a conspirator. it's not true. people just need to be able to have these conversations so that mothers feel safer. pediatricians don't tell you risks even though the insert on the back of the vaccines have risks. mothers are not even informed to make an informed choice. host: patrick is in brookings, oregon on the line for independents. good morning, patrick. caller: i was curious about homosexuality and how people become homosexual.

i decided to look that up -- host: what role do you think that scientists should be playing in public policy debate, patrick? caller: these are scientific -- in the united states. look up homosexuality and the scientific reasons for it. then about transgenders and everything. a lot of thinking about -- host: your line is pretty rough. we will let you go and hopefully get a clearer one. angel, on the line for democrats. caller: good morning. so, yeah. it is a lot to unpack. so many people are giving their opinions. my opinions are about the turbo cancers. people are dying even young. this is from the actual mrna

vaccine for covid, which everyone was told was going to stop covid. it didn't turn out to stop covid. it wouldn't spread covid. it did spread covid. yadda yadda. we are in a weird matrix where we are being told lies still. we are still told keep taking the covid vaccine -- host: what role do you think that scientists should be playing when they are making policy decisions about whether or not to recommend something like the covid vaccine? what role do you think scientists should play? caller: well, this is the problem. they have actually been given a indemnity from being sued from damages from people dying and stuff. i think science is constantly fluid. i have learned science. i'm going on almost 60 now. i don't sound like it, i hope.

i am 58. but i feel -- and this is so important -- and dr. john campbell on youtube -- look him up because he has been doing this amazing research on vaccines and all this stuff -- and people want to go -- no, the vaccines don't do this -- but, you know what maybe there is a little correlation, corollary, but the science, the thing about science is that it is beautiful. i love it. i love science. i have been a science nerd since i was a little kid and i love it, but it changes all the time. it's fluid. oops, maybe i got this wrong and that wrong. science is not a stable thing. once you get off that pony and go, hey maybe this pony i'm ri e ing will not always be stable, it might change, and i might

find out i was wrong about something, it takes some humility with science to be able to say, guess what, i got that wrong and i want to make that clear to everyone so that -- you know what i mean? it takes him ill at you with science. you have to be a humble scientist. you can't be someone who is all you testicle or based on people who are giving you you know your benefits your bennis to keep your science project going. if you actually have humility you will go, hey, guess what, i might need to tweak something here and there. host: we're just about out of time for this segment, so thank you for everyone who called in on our topic of scientists and policy debates. coming up next, we will hear from shaundell newsome with the small business for america's future who will be with us to discuss the state of small businesses in the u.s. on small business saturday.

later, robert enlow, the president and ceo of edchoice will discuss how education policy could change under the incoming trump administration. we will be right back. ♪ >> are you a nonfiction book lover looking for a new podcast? this holiday season, try listening to one of the many podcasts that c-span has to offer. on q&a you will listen to interesting interviews with people and authors writing books on history and subjects that matter. learn something new on book notes plus through conversations with nonfiction authors and historians. afterwords brings together best-selling nonfiction authors with interviewers for wide-ranging hour-long conversations. on about books, we talk about the business of books with news and interviews about the publishing industry and nonfiction authors. find all of our podcasts by downloading the free c-span now

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guide or watchnle anytime at c-span.org/history. >> the house will be in order. >> this year, c-span celebrates 45 years of covering congress like no other. since 1979, we have been your primary source for capitol hill, providing balanced, unfiltered coverage of government, taking you to where the policy is debated and decided with the support of america's cable companies. c-span, 45 years and counting, powered by cable. >> washington journal continues. host: welcome back. we are joined by shaundell newsome, the co-chair of small business for america's future. welcome to washington journal. guest: thank you so much, kimberly. it is a pleasure to be here for small business saturday. host: can you tell us about

small business for america's future? what your membership is like and what your membership is? guest: small business for america's future is a national coalition of small business owners and leaders. our mission is to provide small business with a voice at every level of government. we spend a lot of time on capitol hill and also spend a lot of time in our local communities.we spread across the united states. it's really exciting and really something that is needed on capital hill -- capitol hill. to speak on behalf of job creators and small business owners. host: how do you define a small business in terms of employees or revenue? guest: the fda defines it as up to 500 employees. generally because a lot of small businesses are less than 100 employees, we hone in on those mainstreet employers and small

businesses that are in our neighborhoods and our communities. revenues range from as much as $1 million, half $1 million or l ess to whatever they will make. the definition of a small business is really those people in the community like the local grocery store, the local dry cleaner, the daycare center. all of those small businesses range in so many different ways and help a community to build on many different levels. host: you are a small business owner yourself. what business do you own and how did you can involved with this group? guest: i got involved with this group in 2009. i was coming out of america's great recession, and i was not happy with the conditions we were in. so, i was invited to washington,

d.c. by senator harry reid back in the days, and he was asking, what are the problems with small business owners? i sat at a roundtable and that is when i got involved. later on, i met a group of concerned business owners who wanted to help other small businesses.that was small businesses for america's future , and we formed a group that was really all about what are the issues and concerns about small businesses? we didn't have much representation on capitol hill back in the days. it was tough to get a voice and have some say into the policies that impact us. as far as my business, i love what i do. i have a small business, a marketing firm, a family-owned business with my wife and daughter in las vegas, nevada. we do a lot of public engagement and public involvement, which to

me is my ministry. going out into the community and informing people about some of the projects and issues that concern them. it kind of aligns with small business for america's future. host: what are some of the most significant challenges facing america small businesses these days? guest: it ranges from health-care -- affordable health care is always an issue with our nation small businesses. why? we typically have employees who live, work, and play right with us. we have a different view of opinions on how it works with affordable health care. we know the affordable care act is something that really helped out a lot of our employees. we got single mothers that work for us. we have grandmothers who work for us. we know that everyone is impacted every which way when it comes to health care and affordable prescriptions for our

employees. for us, we always want to make sure that we are -- that we have the ability to grow, expand, and excell. we also look at access to capital. we like to have access to capital to do creative and innovative things with our business. one of the big things is always taxes. you look at it from the more that we can keep the more that goes back into our neighborhoods. kimberly, when it comes to small businesses, we invest in all of our boy scouts and some of the soccer clubs and different organizations in our community for our kids. we invest in our churches. a tax code with a great advantage to small businesses, we put it right back into our neighborhoods and local economies. host: you mentioned at the beginning that it is small business saturday. can you talk about the

significance of this day for some of those small businesses in your organization? guest: small businesses, we do our work out of passion. we love to celebrate. we love to celebrate our wins, our communities, everything that we get to do. i think that the nation should go out today and make sure that you patronize a small business. that you go out and take your family to all small businesses right now. we are the creators of net new jobs. it is important to understand, a lot of people say mom and pop, they don't have any impact, but we have the greatest impact since the great recession, the greatest impact on net new jobs since the global pandemic. i think it's very important not only that you support because it

is small business saturday, but you should support throughout the year because that is how we grow our economy. host: we will be taking your calls with questions about small businesses in the united states and we will have regional lines for this conversation in the eastern and central time zones. you can call in at (202) 748-8000. mountain and pacific, (202) 748-8001. if you happen to be a small business owner and want to share your experience, (202) 748-8002. switching gears a little, i would like to talk about the incoming trump administration. what do you think, based on what you have seen thus far, the incoming trump administration will do or mean for small businesses? guest: any type of transition brings uncertainty to small businesses. no matter who is coming in charge, who will be the new administration. we hope that the rhetoric or

campaign things that are promised are not consistent with what is implemented in policy. we know that politicians have to jockey for position and they have to say certain things so they can get elected. what small businesses love is stability. host: what do you mean? where their specific things in president electron's, -- where there specific things that president trump said on the campaign trail that you hope he doesn't put into practice? guest: a lot of them talk about tariffs and they don't want to see tariffs because it changes the price of goods. it adjusts, what are you going to do with that additional cost? that additional cost you will have to pass on to the consumer. that goes full-circle back to our employees. we don't have the luxury, as

small business owners, to dodge our employees. if their lives are not well, and they have an increase in cost, we hear about it. we walk in that front door. a lot of small business owners i've talked to, they don't want to see any type of adjustment to their cost of doing business. host: one of the big issues facing president electron and the incoming congress will be what to do about expiring provisions of the 2016 tax cuts and jobs act. you did research in your organization about the impact of those tax cuts finding that in your svey 68% of respondents felt large corporations benefited the most from the tax cuts, 80% sd didn't help them in hiring new eloyees, 76% said it didn't help with increasing salaries, and another

70% said it didn't help them purchase new equipment. many of these things aligned with promises that were made around the time that those tax cuts were announced and there has been a lot of support among president-elect trump and his team and congressional republicans to extend many of those provisions. what is your take on that policy and what you hope to see from the outcome of the tax subsidy? guest: thank you for that question. did fail the bulk of mainstreet according to our survey. a lot of members said that they wished that they were able to come with a resolution for small businesses. it's fine that our corporate brothers and sisters want to have their 40% tax rate cut, but we are not feeling that same boost or opportunity.

when it comes to stakeholders, corporations, wall street operations, then we'll do the same thing that small businesses do. i'm just stating the facts. small businesses, we walk to our grocery stores, we go to the pet groomer, and we support other small businesses, so it makes for greater economy and it makes sense that tax cuts, if you're going to give huge tax cuts, they should go to small businesses because we come back into the community, spend back in the community. we don't go out and build other stuff or go to a remote island. we are in our community impacting every american. host: in the eastern and central time zones, (202) 748-8000. in the mountain and pacific time zones, (202) 748-8001. if you are a small business owner, you can call in at (202) 748-8002. that is the line that thomas in

rockville, maryland called in on. what type of business do you have and what is your comment? caller: what we do is we help both individuals and businesses to keep their wealth by creating trusts and will products for them. we are an online platform. you don't have to go into our office, you can get your will or trust done by visiting our website, www.abelegal.com. host: what is your question? caller: two questions. do you think that the best instruments that can be used by the incoming trump to grow small businesses are similar to what they're doing and for -- doing in virginia? they provide direct gramps and competitive investment to grow

the ecosystem in virginia. as opposed to focusing on, as you said, tax breaks, which really only benefit the very top of the food chain. second of all, a policy that makes more sense for government contracts to go to small businesses. one of the things that they used to do in the district of columbia is make sure that every large contract that was issued, they had to have a small business partner. like a 50%, 51% partnership. do you think that those types of mechanisms would be super beneficial at increasing the opportunity and growth of small businesses across this country? guest: thomas, thank you for being a small business owner, happy small business saturday, and your business is extremely important to generational wealth . i benefited from that from my father. when he passed in 2009 he had a

will and trust. you are very important. you are the type of small businesses that we love to talk about. going into your questions, one thing's access to capital. we saw with ppp starting out as a loan and then a forgivable loan -- host: the paycheck protection program that was rolled out during the pandemic. guest: thank you. i am an air force veteran and we talk and a lot of acronyms. one thing that i think is important is access to capital always infused into small businesses. small businesses utilized the same capital and turn around and give it back to the employees and their community. grants are great. any type of technical assistance is great. anytime that you can infuse and invest in the small business it comes back tenfold. to me, it's really important. i think that what you talked

about was an excellent idea. host: you mentioned the paycheck protection program. i want to point out some data from the department of treasury that found that there was a surge in small business formation following the pandemic . the post-pandemic economy with its higher levels of household wealth and renewed support for small business kick started entrepreneurship. there has been a well-recognized surge in applications to start new businesses since the pandemic with over 19 million new applications since the end of 2020. the pace of new business applications has eased from the hype last year, but the pace remains above the steady pre-covid rate. business formation data from the pandemic period is not fully available, but application rates are predictive of actual business formations. actual business formations from the subsequent eight quarters

from likely employers. that likely follows what you said. at government contracts, did you have thoughts on that? guest: i do. we work on a lot of government contracts. we have been working on government contracts since 2007. one of the things that i think is important is small businesses having access and opportunity to work on government contracts. the national infrastructure law, the bipartisan infrastructure law, actually did a lot to infuse work with small electrical companies, small construction firms, small engineering firms. i think when it comes down to government contract and opportunities that is always a wonderful way for small businesses to grow and expand. host: let's hear from bill in arkansas who is a small business owner. what kind of business do you have and what is your question?

caller: sales, marketing, and product development. it can overlap your last discussion. i have a small business that i just celebrated the 20th anniversary of that i still have my first customer. host: congratulations. caller: thank you. it is a pleasure. i did see a hit. having been a chef before producing flavor profiles that can be turned into shelf items, or seasoning blends, or sauces. i represented west coast wineries for about 20 years. small business west coast wineries. have you ever thought of selling that in arkansas? no, never. how about i do that with you? i worked with five or six other states to help small wineries have an opportunity to be in the

world out there, the 20% that make it. it has been a wonderful experience. i am retired from marketing sausages and cheeses and all sorts of things in the food business, to food service distributors as well as big-box stores -- host: before we get to your question about small businesses, given the last segment talking about rfk junior's positions on america's food system and what he plans to do about it, it seems like you have an interesting interaction of the small business opinion and food opinion. what are your thoughts? caller: i was a very lucky guy. in the 1970's, 80's, and 90's everyone was trying to improve the product going into the finished food that people would eat. there was a wave of that. if you read the book, i think it is called sugar, salt, and fat. it tells you things that they

have psychological doctorates in finding the bliss point of sugar, salt, and fat so people will want to eat more. i can't help but think that if they really are 200, or 2000, or whatever the number of big business food processing individuals, they can't sell that in other parts of the world like canada or europe, maybe we ought to look at it real close. everybody ought to take a deep breath and not freak out. i don't think that our country is going to allow any one department head to run willy-nilly on everything, but they may discover a lot of stuff with big business people who have gotten in there to control things to go their way. host: did you have a question for mr. newsom? caller: yes. i wanted to ask him what he thinks liberty is for the small businessman. guest: that is a great question. liberty. thank you for your businesses.

my wife is a food and beverage person. thank you for all of that, everything that you do. liberty for us, it comes to giving us the ability to continue to help our employees, our community. and to build and grow our businesses. our return on investment is a little different than tradition in wall street. yes, we want to make money because we want to take care of our families, but at the same time it is more about the community, our neighborhoods, and the people around us. you have a lot of family-owned businesses that are small businesses. you have a lot of individual mom and pop small businesses. i think the consistent factor is how we are able to impact our local community. host: that gets to a question

that we received on x from someone thhe handle aztec. s e definition of small business changed with the ability for any individual to start a website, podcast blog, vlog? are they all considered a small business or does a small business need to have hired someone to be considered a small business? guest: all small businesses are great. i know various chambers who do those kinds of things to do a website, and they are all important, but one thing that happens with employers is it helps to grow the community. it goes back to government contracts. you're talking about earlier, kimberly, you can't do a government contract as a solo shot. we have learned especially in small businesses and minority communities that you need employers to expand and grow

your business -- employees, sorry. employees to make sure that we have the capacity to provide value on contracts. the contract impacts everything all around. let's say if you're building a new road, everybody on that contract, including the small businesses, have to provide business in order for that road to impact safety or what happens in your community. i think every small business is important, but when you talk about employer-based small businesses, they are extremely important. especially in minority communities who struggle with capacity in taking care of some of their businesses. host: thomas in delray beach, florida, good morning. caller: good morning. my question is about trump's tax cuts and corporate tax cuts.

you said that small businesses didn't feel the effects, but my question is, how is that possible if the percent of tax cut was the same for small business? the 40% would have been the same 40%. how is it possible that they paid less taxes yet didn't see any benefit? the second question that related to that is, how would you feel about trump's corporate tax cuts to small businesses being either expanded or left to expire? surely if you allow the cuts to expire, if trump's tax cuts expire, small businesses will be paying more taxes, right? would you want to see the tax cuts extended, expired, or mended? guest: large corporations got a permanent 40% tax cut rate cut. permanent. ok? the difference between permanent and ours about to expire is

huge. think about this from this perspective as well. just as kimberly alluded to, more small businesses are growing right now at this current point in time. not due to the trump tax cuts or tcja, but really about some of the resiliency, some of the policy that have allowed us to do more government contracting, to give us more access to capital. small businesses in my opinion need more access to capital and access to contracts than we need any type of tax cut in ways that benefit the wealthy. we are not wealthy. a lot of us are sort of middle-class, sort of hard-working middle-class working people who have created businesses.

we don't necessarily benefit from any type of tax cut that we cannot take advantage of. that one -- we weren't really able to take advantage of a lot of those cuts. host: jess is in fort mccoy, florida. what is your question? good morning. caller: good morning. i want to give you an idea. we have a lot of government regulations. of course, small what if we make government more friendly and create a government regulation website for each type of business? for example, the regulations for a delicatessen specifically, they would all be on there.

what is the state and local regulations could be integrated into that? if you did that, he was seen where there is overlap, where there is gaps. host: your line is a little difficult to hear. i wonder if you could move closer to your phone if you are using headphones. caller: yeah. is this better? host: it sounds a little bit better. go ahead. caller: as i said, a small business website specific for a business. host: i think we have your idea. just because your line is hard to hear, i'm going to ask our

guest to respond to this idea, concentrating on regulations pertaining to various industries on a single website. maybe you could also respond to the department of government efficiency the incoming trump administration has proposed as a way to roll back regulations or even shrink the size of government. guest: i go back to my original thing. we are uncertain about what that means. i get what the concept sounds like, but uncertainty creates confusion and stagnation with small businesses. since we do not know what the new office is chartered to do, we have to just wait and see which puts us in the opposite of where we are going right now where we are growing tremendously. we are very optimistic. we are having record numbers of openings and record numbers of

employment. with anything not explained to us well, we start pulling back a little bit. we put our life savings into this. we put everything we have, so we cannot really take risks on uncertainty. host: go ahead. guest: the idea the guy had, thomas a believe it was, i think the idea works when it comes to specifically looking at things that impact specific industries. a lot of trade organizations do that as well. i think it is good when you can specify what impacts help small businesses. host: a previous caller mentioned the tax cuts and how it could be possible small businesses did not benefit given the outcome of that legislation. i want to read an analysis from the center on budget and policy priorities, a d.c.-based think tank, that analyzed the impact

of the 2017 tax cuts and jobs act and found the corporate tax cuts are even more concentrated at the very top with the top 1% receiving 36.2% of the corporate provisions compared to 16.8% of the expiring individual provisions. to comply with the congressional budget rules, republicans could not make all of the 2017 tax cuts permanent so they prioritized making the less popular orbit tax changes permanent to avoid having to debate those cuts when the other provisions expired. it shows here the share of benefits by income group. in 2018, after the law was implement it, the benefit to the top 1% and top 5% were skewed very much. in the bottom sixth percentile,

they only received 13.5% of the benefits -- 60 percentile, they only received 13.5% of the benefits from the individual provisions. let's get back to your calls. herschel is in cincinnati, ohio. good morning. caller: good morning. if you can hear me, president trump said in 2019 the historically black colleges and universities, the first and highest duty of government is to take care of its own citizens. african americans built this nation through generations of blood, sweat, and tears. and you, like all of your citizens, of our citizens, are entitled to a government that puts your needs, interests, and families first. so, my question is, based on the over $26 billion we were able to put together with pnc bank and the community benefit agreement

that expires next year, is your guest aware of the $88 billion agreement with pnc bank? host: are you familiar with this? guest: not in particular, but i have heard about it from the -- what is that organization? i have heard of it, but not in detail. caller: i am one of those members. we have created over $400 billion worth of bank-based community benefit agreements. under the trump administration, he is saying, on january 20, that he is for americans first and small business. have you developed a business plan to be submitted to the america first policy or the transition committee for small business? have you put together a policy position like we have done for

the administration to access changes in tax policy through the omb? guest: no. i have not put together a business plan personally. are you asking me personally? caller: i am asking you as your organization. he is going to manage the first 100 days through executive orders. in those executive orders, in terms of small business, have you put together an executive order like 13985? host: are you asking if his organization has come up with proposals they plan to submit as advice for the first 100 days? caller: yes, submit now to the transition as they land at the sba, as they land at various departments, have you submitted or put together a task force to

develop such a proposal to the administration for small business? guest: let me answer it this way. we are constantly, no matter which administration, we are constantly speaking to them about policy changes and adjustments based on policies we know are coming to fruition definitely. right now, everything is talk for us. we are prepared. we have been talking about the tax policy for almost a decade as far as my organization. small business for america's future was built on talking about all of these policies that impact small businesses, so we have been doing this for quite a while. we are not reactive. we are pretty proactive on different things whether it is minority businesses or other mainstream small businesses. we have been doing this since our existence. we don't really look at one particular opportunity.

we do this consistently every day, every month, and all year long. host: president-elect trump has nominated scott bessent to be the treasury secretary. the headline in the "wall street journal" as he sees a coming global economic reordering. he is a defender of president-elect trump's activist approach to trade. what is your take on trump's pick for treasury secretary and other positions that affect small businesses? guest: we do not really know and it is uncertain. these folks coming in and transitioning have to tell us what the plan is, what they are actually doing versus what was said on the campaign trail. we just want to know what is happening.

that builds the trust factor for us. it rolls us back a little bit. we have to see what will happen. i don't really have opinions when it comes to some of the cabinet members until they show me what they are doing. when they can show us whatever they are proposing and it comes in, then we can look at how it impacts small businesses. until we see something, it is really difficult to form an opinion. host: james's in silver spring, maryland. good morning. caller: my question is pertaining to the christmas season great i plan to spin a lot of money on gifts. i'm trying to look for goods manufactured in the united states. i would like to buy from small businesses that manufacture in the united states. how can i get a list? if i go to amazon, every gift i

have tried to buy is made in china, indonesia, or some other state. none of them are manufactured in the united states. please advise me how we can do that. what is small business' plan to get manufacturing back in the united states? guest: i would check with your local small business administration or local small business development centers. especially the small business development centers typically housed at your colleges or universities. they research manufacturers in your state. they do a great job gathering information like that. host: the alliance for american manufacturing puts out a 2024 made in america holiday gift guide made it is not necessarily small businesses specifically but they are products this

advocacy group says are manufactured in the united states. that is from the alliance for american manufacturing, james. let's hear from bruce in lawson, oklahoma. good morning. caller: good morning, kimberly. good morning, mr. newsome. i'm calling because i want to find out what is going to be the relationship between the small businesses and the federal government regarding the increase in the federal minimum wage. it has not been increased since july of 2009, as you are aware. it is seven dollars 25 cents. hardly enough for anyone to make a living on. could you explain what small businesses feel toward increasing the federal minimum wage? guest: again, as small businesses, we are very employee centered. most small business owners that i know and most of the small

businesses i network do not pay minimum wage. they are very good at paying livable wages. i think increasing the minimum wage, if it helps the employee, the economy, and the traditional family, we do not really dive that much, but we would support anything that helps employees and our mainstream families. host: that is all the time we have for this segment. thank you very much, shaundell newsome, co-chair of small business for america's future. we appreciate your time this morning. guest: thank you, kimberly, and thank you to all the small business owners pre-habbing small business saturday pretty thinking to my team at small business and thank you to my

team at small business for america's future. host: next, we will be joined by robert and lloyd, president and ceo of edchoice joining us to discuss how education policy to change for the incoming trump administration. we will be right back. >> sunday on "q&a," the author of "my two lives" talks about survivg nazi germany as a half-jewish member of the hitler youth and the day his jewish mother was arrested by the gestapo. >> it was right around the corner from where my mother lived, where we lived. i saw all kind of gestapo and ss t-rex in front of the building. this was a large building. there were many families in

there. my brother decided rather than going in there, we waited on the corner and watched from there. we decided to ask our mother why the trucks were there and what the gestapo was doing there. when they would leave, we would go home and ask our mother. after a while, to our surprise, it was my mother they were bringing out of the building and they took her away. >> that is sunday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span's "q&a." you can listen to all of our podcasts on our free c-span now app. >> according to brown university

professor, cory ref schneider, the following presidents have threatened democracy. here are his words from the introduction of his book. john adams prosecuting as many as 126 who dared criticize him. james buchanan colluded with the supreme court to deny constitutional personhood to african americans. andrew johnson urged violence against political opponents. another segregated the federal government and richard nixon committed criminal acts ordering the watergate break-in. he teaches at brown university. >> the brown university professor with his book, "the presidents and the people," on this episode of booknotes+ to wi host brian lamb.

it is available on the c-span now app or wherever you get your podcasts. >> american history tv saturdays on c-span2, this weekend at 2:00 eastern, conversations with veterans and historians on world war ii. hear from merchant marines, the last rosie the riveter, buffalo soldiers of the korean war, holocaust survivors, and more. at 9:30 eastern, actor dennis quaid portrays ronald reagan in the film "reagan" in headlines a cast discussion about the movie. the story is told through the eyes of a kgb agent and is based on the soviet union's real-life survey jump -- surveillance of ronald reagan. watch american history tv saturdays on c-span2 and find a

ll schedule on your program guide or watch onlinanime at c-span.org/history. >> the house will be in order. this year, c-span celebrates 45 years of covering congress like no other. since 1979, we have been your primary source for capitol hill for balanced, unfiltered coverage of government, taking a tour policy is debated and decided, all with the support of america's cable companies. c-span, 45 years and counting. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. we are joined by robert enlow who is the president and ceo of edchoice. good morning, mr. enlow. guest: thank you for having me. host: thank you for getting up for us this morning.

remind viewers of what edchoice is and what your mission is. guest: edchoice is a legacy foundation. our job is to make sure every child can get every option with all the dollars set aside to educate your children. we do not care where children get educated breathe we care that they get educated -- we do not care where children get educated. we care that they do get educated. our goal is to make sure american children have access to the best quality education ever and the dollars followed them. we do research, training, apathy, and litigation around that issue. our goal is to make sure all kids have the freedom to choose the best schools for their children. host: how are you funded? guest: we are funded by every single person interested in funding us, mostly individuals. we have around 2500 donors. we are excited so many people support our issue. host: president-elect trump has nominated linda mcmahon, former

administrator of the small business administration to lead the department of education. what do you think she brings to the position? guest: great question. i think she brings some experience in understanding how education works at the state level. her time on the connecticut board of education will be a good experience for her to understand what happens when washington comes threatening. she understands the impact of how child federal programs work on the state education system. i think her expanse in the small business administration with the delivery of so many loans gives her experience in understanding how to deal with the huge bureaucracy like the department of education. i think she will be very supportive of the president's agenda for school choice and parents' rights. overall, we are excited about the potential incoming secretary mcmahon and we think there will be a lot of positives moving in

the right direction. host: they recently for on newsnation and expressed some concerns. i want to listen to a portion of her response. [video clip] >> the trump agenda calls for national vouchers. that will divert public tax payer dollars into private schools. voters across this country and just this november voted against that in wide numbers. in kentucky, colorado, nebraska, it is a hugely unpopular initiative. our question to the nominee is whether or not they will continue with this agenda. host: what is your take on her statement? guest: there is a lot there, and

i appreciate you sharing that clip. the idea of school choice takes money away or diverts money from traditional schools has been proven wrong again and again. there are over 75 studies looking at the fiscal impact of school choice programs in america. almost all of those fine schools and taxpayers -- find schools and taxpayers save money. the average scholarship for a child is $6,000. the average amount the same trouble get to go to public school is $17,000. the reality is they cannot divert money. we hear that all the time. there is a conversation about whether the federal level is the right place to do it. there is currently a program working through congress right now, for a tax credit program which makes a lot of sense. it is a tax credit which would give individuals and corporations the ability to support school choice opportunities for families in all those states.

it is a program that makes a lot of sense. it is a program that does not have a lot of top-down federal bureaucracy with it. when you look at what school choice has done, it has saved taxpayer money. when you look at what the federal government's idea is to advance school choice, it is going to be a program that is beneficial and not cost the taxpayers more money. i think we are headed the right direction. it is interesting when we have this conversation. i hear "blind allegiance." i think we have had blind allegiance to a system for a long time. since covid, parents are saying we can no longer have blind allegiance to a system that is not serving families well enough. i think the incoming administration is serious about cleaning that up. host: you mentioned some of the criticisms often lobbied against school choice programs in various states. there is a lot of criticism recently of the program in

arizona, including in the politico magazine article which calls the system no limit vouchers and conservative parents have found a taxpayer supported way to opt out of public schools. other states want to imitate it. among other points in the article which is talking about empowerment scholarship accounts, the school voucher program that in 2022 opened to every family in arizona, recently created for students with disabilities who needed services they cannot get at their neighborhood public schools. they have morphed over the last two years into a budget-busting free-for-all used by more than 50,000 students. nearly one in 20 school aged children in the state, many of whom were already rolled in private and religious schools or homeschools. families mostly from high income zip codes have applied to taxpayer funds for everything

from ski lift passes to visits to trampling parks, a $4000 grand piano, more than $1 million in legos, online belly allet lessons, and cookie baking kits. is this program done well or is it opening itself up for some of the criticisms laid out here? guest: i know it has done well because it has gone to 70,000 families coming to the program in droves. they want more control to direct the education of their children. one thing i would be interested to share with your viewers is that lego has a division iv selling legos to public schools for $7,000 a classroom. this concept that we spend money on things for children's education and somehow if parents does it it is bad but if a school district does it, it is fine, i think there are balances

we need to put on the programs. here is what i know about arizona. if it is causing the state to go broke, why is the program run out of the department of education actually flush with cash? the department said they have a surplus in their budget. if the program is managed by the department of education and the money comes out of the department of education, and they have a surplus, it is shocking to me to find out how the state is having its budget broke. host: i want you to finish your point. i will read the line related to that in the article. it says costs have ballooned from the original estimated price tag of $100 million over two years to more than $400 million a year, a figure critics have noted would explain more than half of arizona's projected budget deficit in 2024 and 2025. guest: i do appreciate they are making that point. the secretary of education in arizona has refuted that point

and said it is not correct. here is an interesting point to make about that as well. if you give a child an esa, it is typically $6,000. public schools get around $17,000. how is it it is going to cost the state a lot of money if children are moving? the best studies we have seen show 57% of families taking choice are switchers, going from a public school toy private school setting. most of the families are switchers. in arizona, the vast majority of families were coming from traditional public schools. as a moral question, we want kids to get in where they fit in. we want families to do the best for their kids. if we can do that in a way that is logical and can save the state money and making sure kids are progressing, and based on all the data we have seen, school choice is a positive for kids, arizona's budget is not being broken by school choice. here is the other thing i will point out. the latest data on how many

funds have been misused, according to what we found, only 1% of the funds are being misused in the state of arizona. the overpayment rate for snap in arizona is $188 million. over 9%. we are not talking whether that is bad to provide snap benefits. we are trying to say government run programs have a lot of overpayment. esa's are not near the top of them. it is interesting when hear the budget busting is coming from a program that has less than 1% overpayment and no conversations about programs that have millions and millions of dollars in overpayment, particularly when you are talking about families doing better for their kids where children with special needs are getting the kind of services they need. families in areas with a do not feel the schools are serving their needs are also getting served. in america, we are also ok with

giving rich people $17,000 to attend a segregated community school but we balk at giving them a $6,000 esa. there is a practical point that proves it is not costing the state's money. this is something we should continue to delve into. these are new programs and we need to continually learn from them paid the early data suggests there are a lot of positives. host: psint-elect trump said on truth social on linda mcmahon secretary -- as secretary of education, she will fight to expand choice to every staten america and power -- and empower parents to make the best education decisions for their families. we have special lines for this segment. parents and students come you can call in at 202-748-8000. educators can call in at

202-748-8001. everyone else can call in at 202-748-8002. before we get to the callers, i would like to ask you about the balance you see between the calls to expand school choice state by state and create more federal support for that, that federal legislation you were mentioning earlier that would address some of these things, with some calls from within the incoming trump administration to eliminate the department of education. guest: allowing families to reclaim their money or individuals who want to give their money through the tax credit is not expanding the scope of federal government. it is trying to make sure individuals can direct money the way they wish. i do believe the incoming administration is serious about doing something with the department of education. obviously, it will take some time and congressional oversight

but they are serious about it. they can change the debacle that was the fafsa introduction under the current administration. they can streamline title i. they can take thethere are thino quickly to streamline the department of education. they will likely resend the administration's title ix order. they will have conversations about the loan -- the federal loan program the biden administration tried to do. the things the department can work on now are streamlining title i, streamlining faster -- fafsa. that will not take away getting a tax credit to help families across america access education that works for the kids. host: give again operating in 1980. it has 4400 employees.

it is the smallest of the cabinet agencies. it had a 2024 budget that was 1.8% of the federal budget. do you think the department should be eliminated? guest: it should definitely be streamlined. 1980's when it was elevated to a department position. it was established under johnson in the 1860's when it became an office of education. it was not elevated until the 1980's. every government institution and agency can be streamlined. i love the 1% number. that's exactly what it says about school choice. in arizona, the school choice program is less than 2% of all in the state. less than 1% of all students in the state. using those numbers it is not a huge impact on the federal government.

all government programs can be streamlined. there's a lot of opportunity to do so. host: joanna in germantown, maryland. a parent. what is your question. -- question? caller: my kids are in parochial school and it cost an arm and a leg. i'm against vouchers. under the first trump administration, one figure that was bandied about was $12,500 per student. private and parochial schools, it does not go very far. out here the tuition is $50,000 a year. $50,000 year for private school. parochial schools are just a tad less than that and that is just the tuition. that does not cover books, fees, uniforms, everything else that goes with it. the problem -- what happens is when you have a voucher, it benefits higher income people.

they get a $12,500 break. i'm just throwing that is a figure -- out as a figure. that is great for them. it doesn't help people of modest and low income. they will be stuck still in the poorer schools. charter schools don't show any better outcomes than regular public schools. poor people are really not going to benefit by this. upper income people will benefit by vouchers. that is something people don't realize. if you have a kid in parochial schools and you are paying $35,000 a year for their education, based tuition, that $12,500 deduction still leaves you with $20,000 to pay intuition. --tuition. guest: thank you for posing the

question. it depends on how you design programs. the programs were designed in america almost exclusively for low income kids. low income families were benefiting the most from these programs. that is based on historical evidence. the programs being established that allow all families to choose, you can design them like what arkansas has done. we will prioritize those who have greater need first to make sure they get the most opportunity upfront. there are ways to design the programs to alleviate concerns. the next thing is the numbers you floated in maryland maybe that case, but the average parochial tuition and america is around $14,000. not anywhere around $50,000. there are a lot of exclusives out there. we also have created a system where since your housing price determines the quality of education, which are medically advantaged higher income

families by the fact they can buy a house. one of the goals milton friedman had for choice is it is fair, effective and equitable to separate the government financing education from the government running schools. we know on the whole most private schools, parochial schools, they cost less. delete schools do cost more. they are the -- elite schools do cost more. the people who choose to are often the ones who need it the most. they are most dissatisfied with their current education. a family is not going to leave a school if they are doing well. if they are getting bullied or not academically progressing -- it is clear. they want their children to move to different schools because they are tired of the kids getting bullied, tired of the kids not being in a safe environment and tired of them not learning. families are making sacrifices to do that.

it is something we should continue to keep a watch on. the vast majority of programs have been helping low-income families and will continue to do so. host: there are several groups that challenge that point, including the national coalition for public education which argues and highlights data finding most voucher recipients are wealthy families who never attended public schools. they say that these wealthy families can afford to pay for private school tuition without help from taxpayers in the form of a voucher. they give examples. this is another advocacy group. it seems to be there is competing data on these things. you mentioned students do better. there is here from brookings that says tax funded private tuition programs actually reduce student achievement in several states. there does seem to be some mixed research on this. guest: the only mixed research

you can come close to saying is the participant affects. how are kids doing? are they doing better on test scores than their peers in public schools? the vast majority of the programs we have studied -- there are 17 studies out there now on how kids are doing. the highest quality studies. 11 have found positive effects. four found no effects and two found negative effects. those two were in indiana and louisiana. do you indiana study, the newest cohort shows positive effects. you are seeing a vast majority of resources in the studies. we published all the studies, not just the positive ones. if you look at the 188 studies done that are high quality studies on the school choice, 163 are positive. 19 show neutral benefits. 97% of all studies. they are showing gains for kids.

either through test scores or attainment. do they graduate and go to college at higher rates? they do. do they help public schools? i would be interested in josh's response to this from brookings. public schools with choice do better than their peers around them. choice is leading to the things. civic values. interesting to find children in choice programs are more tolerant of other people's opinions and more tolerant about people's attitudes. there are positive civic values. children participate in society more. families who choose get more involved in their kid's education, get involved in voting. the most recent studies, louisiana and indiana. indiana will see a more positive

one on participant affects. they are showing we have some lessons to learn and things to go and that is great. the vast majority, 97% in fact are showing positive or neutral gains. host: since you mentioned indiana, i would like to go to one of our callers. john is in indianapolis and is a parent. he can speak to that program as well. caller: i can't speak to that program. i was doing research on it -- i will be doing research as soon as i get off the phone. private academies. segregated academies. are they entitled to government-subsidized funds? guest: in our opinion -- the rules are written this way, no school should violate u.s. six before civil rights act. -- 1964

civil rights act. they are required to be accredited by the state and reviewed by the state. this is there already, the oversight. i appreciate you calling from indianapolis. it's a great place and there's lots of opportunities for choice in indianapolis. host: let's go to robert in salt lake city, utah. good morning, robert. caller: hello. how are you? host: what is your question? caller: i was wondering how much of the actual tax dollars a person making about $50,000 goes to education on the federal level versus the state taxes you pay. isn't this just a diversion of funds from the rich elites trying to take money out of the good public system and final it into the private -- funnel it into the private system?

guest: great question. about half of every dollar spent in every state is spent on k-12 education. mostly -- half your state taxes or dollars are for k-12 education. in indiana, it is more than that. you look at your local private tax. is between 30% and 50% of every dollar of local tax dollars is spent on k-12 education. the vast majority are spent on k-12 education. less so on the federal level. the federal government spends between 9% 11% of total cost on the k-12 education. the vast majority is coming from state and local sources, of which take a lot of your resources from u.s. a taxpayer. -- you as a taxpayer. we believe in the educated public. i think that's a different thing from a government run school system.

there are great traditional public schools but not a one-size-fits-all. parents don't need a one-size-fits-all system. they want the funding for the government, which is great, but is different from saying we want funding from the government and the government to run our schools. we know it has been happening for years and years. parents are saying to themselves we have had enough. this is why you see the dramatic increase in choice across the country. 13 states have a universal school choice in america. that is since the pandemic. one of the states is utah where families are saying we want more access to control of the dollars are kids get for education. we have seen a dramatic increase. the ballot initiatives mentioned earlier, very unique situations. the irony is that colorado almost got 50% for a school voucher program and that's a fairly blue state. host: i will add detail to what you are mentioning about the places where the ballot initiatives did not make it through.

three states blunt school choice momentum. voters in colorado, kentucky and nebraska put the brakes on the school choice movement. this was earlier in the month. rejecting ballot measures that would've instituted or expanded state support for parents to send their kids to private school or protected other school choice options. there are 75 private school choice programs available across 33 states. the district of columbia -- 33 states, the district of columbia and puerto rico. the movement has been gaining momentum. let's get back to the calls. christine in florida and an educator. caller: i taught for 25 years in public school. in florida, and private schools you can have teachers not certified to teach. also, transportation. you do not get free transportation to these private

schools. that means a lot of people that don't have money, and poverty, they cannot drive these children to these private schools and they miss out. guest: i appreciate you bringing that. the transportation one is one we are concerned with. florida gives a $750 stipend. it may not be enough but it's a start and i agree we need to make sure that is taken care of effectively and equitably. as for certified teachers, there are lots of ways we can have children get educated. technology is changing it dramatically. one certified teacher can teach millions of kids. the data on certified teachers versus non-certified teachers shows there's not a huge difference as long as they have experience. they key is to make sure kids are getting educated by

experienced educators. educators are amazing people. there's a lot of them. educators are leading the white and starting the micro school revolution. -- the way by starting these micro school revolutions. educators have the right way of looking at the world. we don't want them to be curtailed by the system that does not work for them. we went many options for educators as much for families. host: becky in wisconsin. what is your question? caller: i have two things. one of which is in wisconsin private schools do not have the take special needs students. it seems like that would put an undue burden on the public schools. my second one is, how my represented as a retiree with no children in the school system? how my represented in the

schools where i can't run for office that i know of or have any vote in what they do? it strikes me as taxation without representation, which is why we threw tea in the harbor if my memory serves me. guest: i appreciate that question. as a parent of a special needs kid i know how important it is to make sure they get the right kind of education. in the mid to thousands, the fastest -- 2000 private schoolg up to the table. they certainly did when the programs were created, these scholarship programs. they did with the esa programs. they were originated for private schools are stepping up to the table. they certainly did when the programs were private schools ag up to the table. they certainly did when the programs were created, these scholarship programs.

they did with the esa programs. they were originated for families with special needs. families who had ms and needed therapy. that was amazingly successful for certain special-needs families. private schools are deafly doing it. as for your voice being heard, your voice is heard and whether you take a vote for state representative for state senator who supports or does not support this. on the ballot initiative conversation, while those three states with different reasons did not see the ballot initiative to successful for school choice, at the same time you saw state after state passing and enacting school choice programs for families. you saw ohio increase its program. indiana, arkansas, louisiana. all the states. new hampshire. they voted for school choice. you can have a voice. get all the school board at the

private school or public school level and vote for your representative. that is where the democratic process can work in this instance. host: duane in westbrook, maine. caller: i think you are the best c-span has to offer. i have been watching c-span since 1980. everything you do, you are great with your objectivity. i love what you are doing so i'm happy to have you personally on c-span. i want to say this is the privatization scheme what your gas is pushing. it is a privatization scheme to consolidate wealth, defund public education, undermine school unions and destroy the public education system in this country to increase the wealth of private investors. he needs to be repudiated on every caller. what he is doing is pushing a

scheme to defund public education and rich, wealthy investors -- undermines and dumbs down our public education system. he has to be repudiated. it's essentially fascism. host: let him respond to these criticisms. guest: i agree on the fact that i think the way you approach this is amazing so thank you very much. i know what our traditional system has done right. only 40% of kids can read on grade level. that doesn't matter if you are black, white or any other color. we don't do a good enough job. if it were me pushing a privatization scheme, why are millions of families, mostly low income families desperate for this change? they are picking charter schools at home schools and choice programs. they are doing something regardless of their policies out there. the reality of school choice has been that families who were wanting to get in in a different way are getting in and need to

get in. a one-size-fits-all system never has worked in america and it should not work in america. we believe in freedom. we believe in liberty. we understand we can support a family's right to get an education, regardless if it is a government run school system. we are one of the few countries that links the idea with where you live with where you get educated. even places like england allow public dollars to flow to private institutions and don't even think about it. we are very different. we are not seeing the benefits we need to see from the current system. it is a moral problem in america. if we are ok with keeping the system as it is and say we will change it in five years or five more years, families don't have five more years for their kids. we don't have time to wait around to try and improve it through a governmental system. i am all for doing anything we can to ensure kids get the

ability to get the best possible education. i don't care if it is in public schools, charter schools, online, at home or any other way we can. host: research you have on your site. a survey you have done looking at public favorability of k-12 choice policies, 2013 to 2024. according to your group's research, increasing supports for the esa's, scholarships, vouchers, as well as charter schools -- some are on the decline compared to the esa's. guest: right. we find public education through taxpayer dollars. you can either fund it and give it to a government run education, a charter institution or family to customize. esa's are giving it to families to customize, allowing them to pick and choose the education

that works best for them. families want this concept of letting me pick and choose. over half the families tell us now they are ok with their child being educated out of a building maybe one day a week. 30% or so r.o.k. two days of the week. the -- are ok with two days of the week. host: tim in north carolina who is a parent. caller: i would like to ask what he things about in north carolina they started a lottery. it is called the north caroline education lottery. it was supposed to go to the schools. the profit off of it. the legislature recently voted to take half a billion dollars

and turn it over to private schools instead of using it in the public schools. we have a 100-year-old high school here that needs renovations. it needs $98 million to renovate a school. they are giving it to private schools. it is unbelievable. i would like to know what you think about it. guest: i appreciate that. there was a choice program in the state of north carolina for all families. they had a cap on the number of kids who could join and they created a waiting list. that list became bursting at the seams with families, particularly low-income families. the legislature said it is coolly immoral for us to let these families languish -- clearly immoral for us to let these families languish. they said we will fund the kids on the waitlist who were having to go through a lottery. i can't imagine how unjust it is to say let's hope your child

wins the lottery to see if they can get a good education. that strikes me as immoral. host: he may have been referencing the lottery fund. guest: there is a group of families in north carolina on a waitlist. the program was created. if it is the lottery system funding, the state legislature has to determine how it spends its money. they decided to spend it on families for choice. providing more and more dollars for public education. we can share this. there is no state that has seen a reduction in its dollars for a k-12 education in states with choice. they have seen increases every single year. it is hard to say school choice is taking money away when you see state budgets increase every year for traditional public schools. there are now more than half of the staff in traditional public schools that are not teachers. for the first time ever based on

a study they are showing schools and school districts don't have teachers as much as they have administrators. maybe it's a question of how we are using the funds, not whether we are giving enough. host: mildred in new york. what is your question? caller: good morning. my concern is about the schools in new york city. the children are suffering. people can sit behind a desk. once they get out of office and research what is really going on in the schools, they can really talk about statistics. a lot of things were taken away from them. that is why they are moving away from schools. they need to put things back in schools were able catch the children's interest. it will be easier for them and the teachers. thank you. guest: thank you very much for

that. in my former life i dealt with -- i was a social worker dealing with men and women. i was on the school board in brixton, england. one of the poorest areas of london. i have seen the challenges told interfacing. i see what happens. it is terrible and tragic. we need to do everything we can. that includes fixing new york's public schools, allowing families to get private school choice, increasing the number of charter schools. killing everything we can to help those kids get the -- doing everything we can to help those kids get an education. let's let them go somewhere else. i could not agree more. this is why school choice has become so popular with families. they recognize it is not working for them where they are and they want something different. host: anthony also in new york and as a parent. caller: good morning. host: what is your question?

caller: i want to point out that a lot of people seem to get upset if federal funds are used for private schools. we have been doing that for decades. if you look at the g.i. bill, it's been used for college students. they can take that to private colleges. what is the difference with elementary and secondary schools? i would argue it is more important that kids get a good foundational education. there are other federal programs, tuition assistance programs that use federal funds to go to college. the argument that federal money should not go to private institutions, you know, i think it should be attached to what

the kids needs are. guest: i appreciate that point. the g.i. bill, one of the largest tuition programs in america, allows returning servicemen to go to private schools using public dollars. including religious schools. we have a huge history of allowing dollars to go to pre-k institutions that are private and religious. somehow when we get to the doors of k-12 we say has to only be run and funded through the government, otherwise you have to pay for it yourself. we have a long history of providing funds to families in america for private education. traditional public schools do not really get off the ground until the 1830's. we have a lot to do to improve our k-12 education. host: anne in lake city, tennessee. what is your question? caller: i want to say good money to my good friend carol. i would like to say there are schools around here, religious

schools. $35,000 for private school. it's around $600 to $800 a month. i had a grandson that they would -- that wanted to go to that program that the federal government was running. he couldn't go until later on in the school when all these parents they don't make a living got their kids to school and the school was about to lose the funding because they did not have any students. they contacted my granddaughter and her son to go. we need to get the states back in education, away from that big bureaucracy in d.c. controlled by democrats and randy weingarten and put the kids first. not government first. kids first. he should be allowed to go. how much money should the -- with the government save if they just let the states handle education rather than the federal government? guest: thank you so much for

that. we know from the choice programs how much money state and local taxpayers would save. $19.4 billion at the minimum. we know it could save quite a bit. we believe education is from merely a state function and should remain that way. host: lancaster, pennsylvania. an educator. good morning. caller: yes. yes, first of all, i listen to everything that was said so far. i didn't hear too much from teachers. it seems like everyone is telling teachers what is wrong with education, and the teachers are the ones who come into contact with the children daily. i go back, i am retired now, 86, but i go back to the 1960's when

we'd still have prayer in school. some states want to have prayer back. at that time i thought, i don't know how you can get prayer back in school. anyhow, schools are microcosm of society. all the ills of society are reflected in schools. the reason the public schools don't do as well is because more kids from lower incomes attend schools, and my observation is the teacher is only as good as --. how good a teacher you are most of the time determines how good your students, we used to call

them pupils back then, they are. do they pay attention? do they observe what you are saying? they don't learn bios most like plants to do. they have to pay attention. it's hard work, and some of the kids -- host: i want to allow our guest to respond to the point you are making that is often raised. the difference in the educational outcomes is more attributable to who attends public versus private school than the actual systems themselves. guest: thank you for your time as teacher. we think teachers are important and we will never blame teachers for the problem in education then or now. the reality is teachers are the most unsatisfied. poll after poll they are unsatisfied with how schools are working for a lot of different reasons. we don't believe it's because kids are worse now or that

education is not as good as it could be or that it was. we believe the system is grinding itself to a halt. it is not capable of keeping up with the ever-changing needs of families. you can't keep up a system that is run in the 1800s with a 21st century mindset. we have to change that. it is the very machinery of education. this is where the opponents of school choice i think fall down. they think people like me blame educators and we think educators are the future. we blame a system and a structure that is oppressive to families, particularly low income families, and we think that will be thing families want to change and why they are driving to choice more and more across america. host: mr. enlow, thank you for your time. robert enlow is the president and ceo of edchoice. thanks to everyone who called in this segment. we are taking more of your calls

coming up next during open forum. democrats can call in at! full -- can call in at (202) 748-8000 . republicans at (202) 748-8001. independents at (202) 748-8002. we will be right back. >> attention, middle and high school students across america, it is time to make your voice heard. the eastman student documentary cam contest between 25 is here, your chance to create a documentary that can inspire change, raise awareness, and make an impact. your documentary should answer this years question. your message to the president. what issue is most important to you or your community. whether you are passionate about politics, the environment, or community stories, studentcam is your platform to share your

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couple of other stories we have been following. one in the washington post that trump is set to collide with a court he molded. the agenda will test the limits of presidential power. donald trump's greatest legacy is arguably the conservative super majority he created on the supreme court. the second term could put him on a collision course with the institution he reshaped with republican allies controlling the house and senate. the court could emerge as the most likely check on the president-elect's promise to elect sweeping powers in ways that could test the boundaries of the lawn the constitution. if pursued, trump's controversial agenda to deport undocumented immigrants en masse and and birthright citizenship, extensive tariffs, fire or relocate thousands of federal workers, and abolish the education department would surely unleash a flood of legal challenges. trump has lost at the supreme court more than any other modern

president, according to one study, and several recent high court rulings that curbed the power regulatory agencies could him in his agenda -- hem in his agenda. re-nominees have moved the court further to the right, establishing a super majority that greatly expanded the definition of presidential immunity. another story from the washington post, also about president-elect trump, specifically about the move related to tariffs that he is imposing, candidate met at mar-a-lago after the threat. the prime minister of the united states largest trading partner dined in florida. the canadian prime minister justin trudeau had dinner on friday evening with donald trump at the president-elect's mar-a-lago club in florida. the visit came days after trump threatened to impose a 25% tariff on canadian and mexican

goods, along with an additional 10% on chinese merchandise. the president-elect said tariffs would be aimed at halting "an invasion of drugs and migrants into the united states. they were joined at dinner with some cabinet picks and their spouses peerless get your calls and open forum. steven in pennsylvania on the line for independents. caller: good morning. every private school has 100 places and 1000 students apply. who gets in? host: our previous guest has already left. was there a larger point that you wanted to make with that? caller: i think that parents have a choice in where they decide to buy a house or rent a home. that is where the choice is in choosing the stronger school districts, the ones that are

maybe not so good. host: manchester, connecticut on our line for republicans. good morning. caller: good morning. i taught in the schools in hartford, connecticut for 38 years. i think that they call them inner-city schools because the students were overwhelmingly minority. there were no white kids. two points that i want to make. one, i agree 100% with president trump that the department of education should be abolished. it was created not for educational reasons. it was created for political reasons to give my union, the teachers union, a reward for supporting jimmy carter. ever since the scores have not,

of especially minority kids, have not gone anywhere but down or at best remain stable. so, the thing that comes out of there is the same drivel that comes out of the schools of education. it's all woke. the money that the department dishes out, it could be done through other agencies. the second thing is, the inner-city schools, if a kid is not doing well it's not because of a lack of resources. the school that i was in for 38 years, they have the exact same resources, technology, special ed, the whole nine yards. if i may say so, excellent teachers. i'm all for vouchers. with one caveat, that get those

kids out of those schools earlier. like elementary school. that's for sure. when they get to the high school where i taught, they are two or three years behind the gray that they just left. if your -- behind the great that they just left. if you are going to send that school to private school what are they going to do about that? nothing. they're going to put them in a regular class which means that the standards will come down because the teacher will be held responsible. in the jargon, the special needs. how does the teacher meet the special needs of the student? the way they made the needs of the student is to lower the standard, everyone is held to the lowest denominator. yes, i am 100% behind president trump in his plans for the department of education. thank you. host: shirley in franklin, west

virginia on the line for democrats. caller: thank you for taking my call. i would like to address the education topic this morning. i've taught in private schools. in indian schools, the bureau of indian affairs. i've also taught in public schools. i went to private schools, parochial schools, from the time i was in kindergarten through high school. so, i have a lot of background in that. i also went back and i taught in some of those schools that i was in when i was a child in private schools. i -- i would say, honestly, given my experience, that there is no comparison between private

schools and public schools. the quality in public schools is amazing. private schools, you don't have to accommodate the way you have to in public schools. if you have a student that's not doing well, they are probably going to drop out. if you have a behavior problem, believe me, they will be gone in three weeks. i've seen it with my eyes. in the public schools, they have so many more materials, manipulative, and math, really quality schedules, time for the teachers to prepare. the private school, i had one half-hour week to prepare

something apart from what i stayed after school and came in early to do. host: thank you for sharing that experience. let's go to lisa in alexandria, virginia on the line for independents. good morning, lisa. caller: good morning morning. i wanted to comment on tariffs and education. tariffs cannot be any worse than nafta was because nafta promised to bring down prices and prices have steadily gone up and jobs have gone out of the country. on education, education can't be any worse at the state level with the funding than it is right now at the federal level, because we have no educational system that is consistent in the public education who is educating our children, because it is based on your zip code.if you don't live in a good zip code zone, your kids will be in a public school zone that's overcrowded and the teachers aren't going to be focused on educating them. host: next, carolyn and ohio on

our line for democrats. good morning. caller: hi, i just wanted, since it is the last day of military month, i wanted to thank c-span and all of the veterans who spok e on veterans day on your channel. it did my heart good. i am a senior citizen and my dad has been deceased for 15 years. to hear them talk just brought my dad back to life. it was so good to hear that some of them have a hard time talking about their war experience. i really enjoyed hearing what all they had to say, and i hope they keep calling in so i can hear what it was like. my dad was like a lot of

veterans and he didn't want to talk about his experience in world war ii. it was not real pretty. so, it helped me to hear your veterans. i want to say, even though it is the last day, happy military month to all the veterans, and thank them once again, and c-span, for having that special day for veterans day where they all got to talk. i appreciated that very much. host: thank you for pointing that out. i will remind our audience that you can find those conversations that we had on veterans day, including with a u.s. marine corps veteran, on our website c-span.org. richard in kingsford, michigan on our line for independents. good morning, richard. caller: one of the things that i wanted to say was regarding

public schools. public schools have to take everyone. they have to take everyone from broken homes. they have to take learning-disabled. they have to take children who have drug problems, born addicted. it's a mess, especially in the poverty areas that i happen to view. teachers, for example, i get a monthly report. there are asterisks behind their name meaning that they froze their retirement. they can't handle the system anymore. they get burned out in no time. it is overwhelming for many of the teachers, especially in the poor areas. i think a lot of it comes

from broken families, drugs and alcohol, and i don't know how we are going to fix that. that's all it got to say at this point. host: bonnie and delta, colorado on the line for republicans. caller: good morning. really cold here in western colorado. i tried to get on a few days ago when the subject was infrastructure. i kind of consider this a wake-up to america. we have got to simply start making our own things in america. three had a horrible almost catastrophe between two of the small towns. they discovered that all of the boats holding the big long

structure of bridge between this span of the blue mesa reservoir, all of the bolts had been purchased in china. all of the bolts are falling apart. we are having to replace the bridges in colorado. it's a serious matter. i don't know where else this has happened, but it caused a horrible mess. the people who live in venison to get down to the hospital, for many, many, many months because they were afraid for people to cross the bridge. i hope the other states are looking into this possibility that the bolts, or anything they purchased in china, which so many things are finding out where bad for us or produced

poorly, and it really worries me. and the coronavirus happened. president trump found out that all of our equipment, our health equipment, our medical equipment was made in china. host: i'm trying to find some information about this story that you are referencing. you're talking about the u.s. 50 bridge west of gunnison? caller: it just opened. host: yes, this is a story in august from the colorado sun about this bridge. four months after its closure more traffic then. but in this article it says that these repairs require 410 tons of steel in 1400 individual steel plates and 55 individual

bolts. it says that the majority of the bolts, the new bolts, are coming from a manufacturing company in portland, oregon before being tested in ohio. it's been a pretty big deal. it says that attention was drawn to bolt bridges after federal highway officials ordered mandatory inspections. cdot identified five potentially problematic bridges across the state that used this problematic t-1 steel being replaced by domestically made bolts. further inspection revealed three that fit the federal criteria for further action. it looks like the new bolts for the bridge will be coming from a mill in north carolina that had been tested in ohio, as well as those manufacturing companies in portland, oregon. caller: that is good news to me.

very good news. the bolts that were originally put there when the big bridge, it was a big span across the reservoir, those bolts, they showed pictures, but they showed the pictures of the steel starting to break away because the bolts were very shabby bolts. anyway, i'm really glad to hear that they've got an answer to the problem. we -- i know that i ordered some things from china, from amazon, and when it got here it was made in china and it was for oxygen for my -- i have to have oxygen.

the material was just shabby. i had to just throw it away and buy some locally made. host: we want to get to a couple more people before we have to end the show. vince in idaho falls, idaho on the line for independents. caller: thank you for taking my call. you had a great show today. i'm going to go back to your first topic, which threw me off guard. my answer to that is definitely you want more science. host: to remind the folks who may have missed it, our first question was if scientists should play more or less of a role in public policy. go ahead. caller: it seemed like the public calls and everybody got wrapped into rfk, and that is just a small piece of science with the viruses. science is more of a philosophy

than anything. it's about ways to systematically figure out your structure and behavior of your physical/natural world through data collection, experimentation, and developing theories. i still hear a lot of stuff. it is not an ideology. it is a way that has been very successful for humans, going back to the greeks but especially after the enlightenment.we get wrapped around science and the other aspect of technology. technology is a tough one, but you never want to do with less science. to look at the backend of your situation on education, we need to go back to real basics on what strictly words mean. science is, like i said, it is not an ideology.

it is a very successful way of seeking and trying to live as a human in our universe. i hear things like just a theory. that statement can really rub about any scientist the wrong way. when a thing is a theory it is there. there is nothing that is just a theory. host: roger is in florida on the line for independents. good morning, roger. caller: thank you for taking my call. you are so patient looking at the different subjects. thank you for c-span. i want to say i'm supportive of president trump. he selected a great person for cdc. we are really hoping that the senate does not confirm rfk junior. host: who is we, roger? caller: well, a lot of the medical community doesn't support rfk junior. and we supported trump, but we

are not supporting rfk junior as hhs. and we hope that the senate is going to ferret out all of the negatives that rfk brings as hhs secretary, and hopefully dr. ben carson will be his replacement. host: eva in daily city, california. on the line for democrats. caller: good morning. i would like to explain my feelings about scientists and policy. of course, it is logic and common sense that scientists should enforce policy. unfortunately, there is -- pharmaceutical, that is why we lost faith in scientists. i got a lot of experience and i'm disappointed.

that is why a want to express my thoughts out. thank you. host: john is in cleveland, ohio on the line for independents. good morning, john. caller: it's not a question of science. it is a question of science and if so called scientists are tainted with gargantuan conflicts of interest. i have a couple of articles that i would like to mention. ama instructs doctors to use deception to push vaccines. i think that element of the big pharma's massive corrupt control over the cdc, fda, nih and all the other so-called regulatory agencies that have been captured by the money they are getting from the big pharma drug companies. there is another article that i would like to mention about

gladio crimes of the american empire. host: where these articles from? i would like to look them up along with you. caller: global research -- globalresearch.ca. host: go ahead with your point. go ahead, please. caller: i think there are a lot of doctors that have been persecuted, has been censored by big pharma's control over the media. i would suggest, i put together a search, and the cia military-industrial complex controls media to defame, to demonize countries for war by the united states against them. i think until we begin to

question everything that we hear on the media that if you check the codename cia operation mockingbird, there was a senate congressional committee that proved, under oath, that the directors of the cia admitted that they had hundreds, literally many hundreds of agents throughout the media to this inform -- to dis-inform us, to slander countries like russia, china, cuba, venezuela, iran, north korea to soften of the american public to manufacture -- host: i will have to stop you because we are out of time for the show, but thank you for everyone who called in for open forum and all of our topics today. we will be back with another edition of washington journal starting at 7:00 a.m. eastern tomorrow. hope you will tune in then, and have a great day. ♪

>> katrina burgess will join us. president elect trump pledged to

deport millions of undocumented immigrants. join the conversation live on sunday morning. >> president biden and the israeli prime minister talk about the cease-fire, then a discussion about the peace corps. later hakeem jeffries on his new book, the abcs of democracy. >> american history tv saturday on c-span2, exploring the people and events that tell the american story. this weekend, conversations with veterans and historians on world war ii. hear from merchant marines, the last rosie the riveter, survivors of the korean war and more.

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