senator jon ossoff. [inaudible conversations] >> the subcommittee on human rights and the law will come to order. welcome all got in particular to our witnesses. and before we begin i want to take a moment to acknowledge your bravery and your courage in

testifying today. we appreciate what it takes for you to be here, addressing a very difficult and personal subject in a public forum like this. at a do want to advise those in attendance and those tuned in across the nation that this is difficult subject matter, and viewer and lesser discretion advised for that reason. in february of this year as chair of the human rights subcommittee, i launched an investigation into state prison and jail conditions for pregnant and postpartum women. the subcommittee conducted site visits and interviewed more than 100 formerly and currently incarcerated women cos civil rights and criminal defense attorney, medical providers, advocates, dual was caught and academics. our also reviewed federal lawsuits and relevant public reports from the last six years,

find what i i believe to be significant and pervasive abuse and mistreatment of pregnant and postpartum women behind bars. the subcommittee has identified more than 200 reported human rights abuses against pregnant and postpartum women at state prisons and jails nationwide. we've heard from mothers forced to give birth in prison showers, hallways or on dirty cell floors. mothers who gave birth into toilets after being told they were not in labor and that they should call quote call lie down and go back to their cells. mothers who gave birth in their underwear after prison staff refused to help them and told quote, don't have that baby.

and, quote, you're not even pregnant. in all cases we reviewed these women repeatedly requested and even begged for help, but help came too late, if at all, and in several cases their babies did not survive. we heard from others whose infants were immediately taken away from them. the subcommittee received numerous reports that generally infants born in the facility are taken from their mothers within one day of birth. and that their mothers often went months and sometimes even years without knowing what happened to their children. we heard from postpartum mothers who were placed in solitary confinement within days of giving birth without any medical care or mental health support. we heard from women who were shackled around their stomachs, wrists and feet during pregnancy and birth, reportedly causing

injuries and miscarriages. while 41 u.s. states reportedly have laws that prohibit or restrict such shackling, the subcommittee identified apparent violations in at least 16 of these states. the rights of women to humane prison conditions and adequate healthcare are recognized under the u.s. constitutions eighth amendment, the international covenant on civil and political rights, the united nations convention against torture, the nelson mandela rules of the bangkok rules, among other international standards. the testimony and evidence we will here today, however, presents a shocking and horrifying picture of pervasive abuse and mistreatment of pregnant women in american prisons and jails. the subcommittee will or testimony from a woman who endured appalling conditions while pregnant and postpartum,

including weeks of solitary confinement within days of giving birth. the subcommittee will also hear testimony from a mother of the woman who gave birth into a prison toilet, after her pleas for medical attention were ignored by prison staff. again i want to thank you both sincerely for your courage in sharing what you and your families have experienced. we will also hear from an ob/gyn physician who can speak to the inhumane conditions faced by pregnant incarcerated women across the country, and the tragic consequences for their health and safety. this is an active and ongoing inquiry by the subcommittee. we will continue to investigate human rights violations against pregnant and postpartum women in george's prisons and jails, and nationwide. i would like to thank my senate colleagues who have worked tirelessly to improve the conditions of our present engines, including chair durbin, senator booker, and senator

blumenthal. i'm grateful that we have all three distinguished senators with us here this afternoon, and i'd like to yield now to chair durbin for his opening remarks. >> i do want to postpone the actual testimony, but this is a continuing challenge. we all know that famous quote which said basically you can measure the degree of civilization in the country by the way they treat people in prison. my feeling is that every member of congress, house and senate,, should visit the prison at least once every two years. we end up passing laws that relegate people to live in these institutions. we should know what's actually going on. senator ossoff, you have been a real leader on this and want to thank you and senator booker and senator blumenthal and senator klobuchar, the whole democratic side of the committee has paid special attention to this issue. thank you for this hearing today. >> thank you, chair durbin. senator booker, chair of the

crime subcommittee for your opening remarks come up with. >> thanks much, chairman ossoff. i want to thank the chairman of the full committee whose u.s. welcome, who's been a part of silly of these issues. it's frustrating to me because our society is turning a blind eye to the treatment and experience of incarcerated individuals. it's stunning that things have been allowed to happen in our prisons and jails throughout our country that do not align with our values. an often put us as outliers in the developed world for how people are treated behind bars. we are especially culpable for overlooking complex challenges and barriers faced by pregnant and postpartum women while incarcerated. i came to this issue many years ago from honestly a place of ignorance. i-40 since i was a law student in prisons and have been visiting prisons regularly since then trying to reform our system and going to jails and prisons. but one day it was pointed out

to me by a woman formerly incarcerated woman that i've never ever in my 20 years of visiting prisons into facility specifically for women. so i visited. when i visited that the suddenly was shaken to my core. i sat down with women who begin to tell me stories that were unacceptable, things like making their own tampons so they could save money to be able to call their children when those calls were charged in user berates. in particular with the facility i visited shirt because i will never forget this tough warden looking at me when i asked her how many of the women here were survivors of sexual violence? and she said 95% of the women are survivors of sexual violence. the united states, this land of the free call is home to one out of every three incarcerated women worldwide. in the past four decades the number of incarcerated women in the united states has increased

by a staggering 585%, an issue that directly compounds of this is a fact that united states has already has for all women the highest maternal mortality rate amongst all income, high income nations. but this problem is obviously worse for pregnant women in our prisons. studies show they have a higher likelihood the non-incarcerated pregnant women of experiencing adverse maternal health outcomes like maternal mortality and morbidity. this and the reality is that exist in our system right now or unacceptable. every human being, especially those in the united unit, should have quality healthcare. that right does not disappear when we go behind prison walls. this is why when i first became a senator a decade ago i fought to improve the treatment of incarcerated women who are pregnant.

back in 2017 2017 i introde dignity for incarcerated women act with a group of extraordinary champions from elizabeth warren to then senator kamala harris'. we fought for and secured the addition of a criminal piece of legislation in the first act that prohibits the shackling of pregnant women in federal custody except in certain limited cases. and more recently i teamed up with representative pressley, lauren underwood and alma adams agreed that justice for incarcerated moms act. this bill will incentivize states to follow our lead in the first act and in the practice of shackling pregnant women once and for all. it provides funding for pregnant and postpartum women who are incarcerated to access do lose, mental health counseling, healthy food and nutrition education come maternal infant bonding opportunities and more to support a healthy pregnancy and birth. this bill is an integral piece of the mom the legislation

introduced with lord underwood and alma adams that would -- of death in the united states and make critical investments and addressing the social determinants of health and disparities in mental health care and outcomes. as today's hearing will illustrate in painful, wretched realities, pregnant women in prisons are subject to great injustices. what gives me hope is that more than 80% of pregnant related deaths are preventable. we have the resources to save the lives of pregnant women and and the maternal health crisis, and help for the birth of healthy children. you cannot say in america that you are pro-life and allowed the horrors that are going on right now in america prisons to continue. federal action is needed to ensure that we treat incarcerated women with the dignity they deserve.

action is needed to save lives. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, senator booker. i'll now introduce eyewitnesses and then they will be sworn in. thank you again for joining us today ms. jessica umberger is a mother and care navigator at the policing alternatives and aversion initiative. she survived pregnancy, giving birth and postpartum recovery while incarcerated in her home state of georgia. ms. karine laboy is the mother of schiano laboy the gipper inside the york correctional facility in niantic connecticut. and dr. carolyn sufrin is an associate professor of obstetrics and gynecology at johns hopkins school of medicine and an associate professor of health, behavior and society at

the bloomberg school of public health and a fellow at the american college of obstetricians and gynecologists or if you would all please rise and raise your right hand. [witnesses were sworn in] >> let the record reflect all witnesses answered in the affirmative. you may take your seats. and when you're ready, ms. umberger, we will begin with your opening statement. just a friendly reminder to the witness to make sure your microphones are active when you're speaking, and don't feel pressed for time. we want to hear from you. ms. umberger, when you're ready, please. >> okay.

good afternoon, now. first i would like to thank you all for allowing me this time to speak in this space. my name is jessica drew umberger. i am a mother and proudly working at policing alternatives and diversion initiative, also known as pad, in atlanta, georgia. in 2017 and 18, i was pregnant while serving a five-year sentence at home facility and what they call the medical facility for the georgia department of corrections. those nine months pregnant in prison, and everything that followed, was the worst experience of my entire life. at helms, they treated us like animals. i was there for nine months and i saw several babies born in the hallway when i was there.

i remember women screaming for help and praying out loud for medical attention. all of us were scared, stressed, and vulnerable. i remember a woman in the room next me screamed, help, i'm having my baby. the nurse on duty shouted shut up, you will see a doctor in the morning. the woman ended up giving birth on the bathroom floor. sometimes people got lucky and the doctor would get there just in time to catch the baby. i remember praying god please don't let that be me. the officers played mean tricks by announcing at 4:00 am, wake up. you've got breakfast from

waffle house. we would rush down the same hallway only to find there wasn't any waffle house. they'd laugh at our confusion and disappointment. they also didn't properly feed us at all. our food consisted of watered down greens and soy patties which left us all very hungry. this food tasted awful, and the cheese bread was extra food we got because we were pregnant with so bad i still can't get the taste out of my mouth. i was most scared the morning i was to give birth. i was told by prison staff that because i had a c-section 18 years prior it was georgia department of corrections policy that i had to have another one. even though i told them i wanted to have a vaginal birth, they told me it was not allowed. it is my strong belief that the prison staff wanted me to have a c-section to fit my birth into

their hospital transport schedule. god had other plans. i ended up with pre-eclampsia and had to be rushed to a hospital. this is where my trauma turned for the worse. i was dropped off with officers i did not know at the hospital and was in a surgery room surrounded by strangers, doctors who never examined me and nurses i never met. when i explained to the doctor that i was told i had to have a c-section but that i wanted a natural birth, the doctor said it sounded like coercion to him. my beautiful jordyn was born august 15, 2018. i had only two short hours to hold and look at my baby. this would be the last time i would see her for a few years. three years, about three years.

we were then separated, she was taken to the neonatal unit and i was taken to a dark basement. where they kept the incarcerated people. in the basement, i was transferred from the rolling bed to a stationary bed. i had to be helped by a couple of nurses as i could not feel my legs. i remember the nurse asking the male sergeant to step out so she could clean me up, and he replied, i can't do that . she looked me in the eyes and quietly said -- she said i'm sorry, and proceeded to clean my private areas while the male sergeant watched.

the next few days i remember random men looking every hour into the small window of the locked door. i remember seeing feet of people walking by my cage window and thinking, if people only knew what was happening down here, what would they say? would they even care? i was being transported to lee arrendale state prison three days after giving birth. i asked if i could see my baby and tell her goodbye, but the transporting officers told me it would be in my best interest not to say goodbye. they wouldn't even provide an update on how she was doing. once i arrived at lee arrendale i was placed in the infirmary

and in a room with a woman who had mrsa. this made me very uneasy as i had a large open wound in my abdomen. i asked for cleaning products and was given a thumb nail sized amount of bleach in a pill cup. i was not given my property and therefore could not shower properly. i had been wearing the same underwear from the day i gave birth and did not have a change when i would ask for pads, i was given one, maybe two if i was lucky. i must have complained too much about the room being unsanitary because i was told to grab my bedding, and then i was taken to lockdown, where i was left for three weeks. i was put in solitary when my baby was only five days old. in solitary confinement, i had

no medical support, the staples in my stomach from the c-section had not dissolved, and there was no air conditioner. hot, laying there in august, trying to heal, my c-section wound became infected. i didn't know how i was going to make it. to tell the truth i didn't think i would make it out of there alive. no one ever checked on my mental health post pardon. my six week check up consisted of a doctor asking, how are you? when i said fine, he said, ok good. when i was finally sent back to the general population, i spent a couple weeks in a cell where i had to sleep on the floor because i physically could not climb into the top bunk. i came home in april of 2022 and

it was clear that my kids have been serving time, too. they had five homes during their three years in foster care and they were traumatized. i was desperate to sit my family back together but finding housing, finding housing something that was necessary if i is going to get my kids out of foster care was difficult with a criminal record. i must have applied for over 30 apartments, and have repeatedly, was repeatedly denied before i finally purchased my home. i had a mission, to get home and get my children back. i achieve my mission. today we are living together and we're all healing. write it was so clear my kids were punished along with me. they never had been roller skating, never learned how to ride a bike, or swim. they tell me they'd sit in a

room all day in foster care. no opportunities, no activities. nobody took them to the movies. i served my time, but my children and i will never fully be finished with my sentence. i am hopeful that my testimony will make a difference and that we might work together on alternatives that heal instead of harm families. >> thank you so much, ms. umberger. ms. laboy, when you're ready. >> good afternoon, everyone. and thank you for the opportunity to address you today. my name is karine laboy, and i reside in new britain, connecticut. my daughter has been

incarcerated at york correctional institute in connecticut, since august 2017. my daughter was around six weeks pregnant when she entered your correctional. i stand before you today as a mother and grandmother to tell you about our family's experience. from the moment my daughter entered york, her pregnancy added a layer of fear and uncertainty to our lives. communication with her was very restricted, and i was denied contact for several weeks. when i finally heard her voice, she expressed a lot of distress and fear of being alone. she told me about times where she was denied adequate nutrition and medical attention.

she was even threatened with solitary confinement for requesting to be sent to the infirmary. the prison staff forced her to choose between phone calls and recreation time, a cruel decision for any expecting mother. as my daughter's pregnancy progressed, i attended every court hearing, hoping to see her and reassure myself of her well-being. every time i saw her in court, she looked sick, sweating a lot while hunched over. it was heartbreaking to witness her in heavy metal shackles around her belly and ankles, a practice that continued throughout her pregnancy. the darkest moments began in early february 2018 when, for two agonizing weeks, i received no word from my

daughter. the days that followed were chaotic and deeply distressing. the connecticut department of children and families called me and informed me that she had given birth. dcf asked to meet me at my home to fill out paperwork so i could go meet my granddaughter. shortly after filling out the papers, i learned that my granddaughter was in the nicu for being born premature, underweight, and malnourished. when i went to the hospital, dcf met me there so i could meet my granddaughter. during the custody process, i learned that my daughter had been medically neglected and that my granddaughter was born in the prison, not in the hospital like i thought.

i was confused and scared. i knew my daughter was nearby because a nurse told me she had put a big red bow in my granddaughter's hair. i felt relieved to know my daughter saw my granddaughter but nobody would tell me anything about my daughter or granddaughter. i could not see or talk to my daughter. i later learned that she was shackled to her hospital bed for four days postdelivery, a practice that is not only inhumane but also illegal in connecticut. in march 2019, i learned for the first time the full extent of how my granddaughter was born, when my daughter initiated a lawsuit against the prison.

the lawsuit settled a year later, revealed the horrifying truth, my granddaughter was not born in a hospital as i had believed, but into a prison toilet after my daughter's desperate cries for help went unanswered. on february 9, my daughter started experiencing labor symptoms, abdominal pain, and discharge. medical and correctional staff dismissed her pleas, providing only a heating pad and instructing her to lie down for four more agonizing days. she told me she felt like a caged animal throughout her pregnancy at york, which pains me to this day. through the lawsuit i also learned that on february 13 my daughter began bleeding

while using the toilet and called for help, but nobody responded. security camera footage shows my daughter placing a t-shirt between her legs and grasping the prison walls for support as she tried to walk to breakfast. when she came back, she sat on the toilet. the t-shirt was completely bloody, and she began to scream for help when she realized her baby was coming. nobody came. my granddaughter was born into the toilet bowl. she was unresponsive and not breathing once she was outside my daughter. if not for my daughter's quick thinking and her cellmate's help to pat my granddaughter's back and get the water out of her, she would not be alive today.

when prison staff finally arrived, their response was cruel and insensitive. they joked that my granddaughter took her first swim and proceeded to cut her umbilical cord inside the dirty prison cell, disregarding the dignity and well-being of both mother and child. my daughter should have received proper medical care and support throughout her pregnancy, and my granddaughter should have been born in a safe and sanitary environment, not a prison cell. this experience has left us scarred and deeply distrustful of a system that failed to protect my daughter's basic human rights. no family should endure what mine has suffered. prisons must do better to ensure families are informed throughout a woman's pregnancy and to prioritize the health and well being of both mother and child. my daughter was deprived of the medical care she desperately needed. no human being should endure

such cruelty and neglect. no mother or grandmother should feel as helpless as i have felt. i urge this subcommittee to let my family's ordeal serve as a spark for change, and compassion in our criminal justice system. i want to thank you for allowing me to share my daughters and my granddaughters story today. thank you so much. >> thank you so much, ms. laboy. doctor suffern, your opening statement, please. >> good afternoon, senators, thank you so much for the opportunity to speak with you today. my name is carolyn suffern. on the board-certified obstetrician gynecologist and a phd researcher at johns hopkins school of medicine. most of the with the american college of obstetricians and gynecologists and i spent the last 17 years working to understand and improve care and conditions for pregnant and

postpartum incarcerated women. i provide clinical care inside r joke conducting extensive research, publishing over 80 peer-reviewed articles and writing national guidelines on best practices for care for this population, and the fuse on expressing today i have my own and do not necessarily reflect those of johns hopkins university or johns hopkins medicine. so i got into this work was called to a delivery when i was a first-year ob/gyn resident doctor in training in pennsylvania. everything about the ring was as usual. there were ivey poles, fetal heart rate monitors and a mother about to push the baby into the world. but one thing was different. the mom to be with shackled to the bed. nothing in my training had prepared me for this moment. and since that night 20 years ago i contacted dozens of research studies that have revealed systematic decision deficiencies in care for incarcerate, pregnant and postpartum women.

as i begin to provide ob/gyn care any county jail i tried to find out how many pregnant women aren't frustrated and how many give birth while they're in custody. what i found was shocking. there were no such statistics. this was in 2015, less than ten years ago. so my team at johns hopkins conducted the pregnancy and present statistics, or pits study, from 2016-2017, 22 state prison systems, the federal period of prisons and the five largest jails reported monthly pregnancy outcome data to our study. we found that in just that one year there were 3018 admissions of pregnant patients to these facilities, and over 1 million of these pregnancies ended in custody with 897 births. now when we extrapolate these data nationally we estimated there are nearly 58,000 admissions of pregnant women to u.s. jails and prisons each year.

and yet pips was a one-time study, could not include all 50 states or all 3000 plus jails. and so the remains today nofo national account of pregnancy and birth in prisons and jails. so if we don't know how many pregnant women are behind bars, and people think they don't exist. if people think they don't exist, then it makes it easy for prisons and jails to neglect their healthcare needs, as you heard so tragically today. and indeed this is what my and others' research has shown and what you've already heard from ms. laboy and ms. umberger. there are no mandatory standards for pregnancy care of prisons and jails must follow. some research has shown access to such care is variable, often substandard, or even absent. for instance, in a survey my team conducted of all u.s. jails, only 31% did routine pregnancy testing within two weeks of arrival.

so if jails don't test for pregnancy, then they can proceed as though there are no pregnant women in custody. this means many pregnant patients will have time sensitive medical needs that go unaddressed. my research is also documented alarming deficiencies in life-saving care for the estimated 8000 incarcerated pregnant women with opioid use disorder. although the long established standard of care in pregnancy is treatment with methadone or buprenorphine, international survey of jails, only 32% of them provided pregnant women with access to these medications. and even at the subtleties that did provide treatment in pregnancy, three-quarters of them forced patients to go off medications after the baby was born. this puts mothers and babies at risk for severe harm, including deadly overdose. and we know that opioid overdose is a leading cause of maternal mortality in the united states. now when it comes to the issue of shackling pregnant women, its

well established that this increases the risks of medical arms during labor and threat pregnancy. as we've heard, 41 states and the district of columbia now have laws prohibiting the practice. however, they are not always followed. in the pips study four department of corrections have policies or practices that violated state law and allowed shackling. i'm obstetrician colleagues in states with anti-shackling laws tell me of officers shackling pregnant patients all the time, over applying the exceptions that these laws have. the fact that in 2024, pregnant women are shackled while giving birth, putting them and her babies at risk, is a profound assault on their dignity, safety, and human rights. the time is long past due to change conditions for incarcerated pregnant and postpartum women. they deserve and have the right to access comprehensive quality medical care.

we must recognize the connections between the mortality, maternal mortality crisis and incarceration, and we can start by collecting national scale data that link maternal health outcomes with incarceration. he does without data we cannot know the full scope of the problems, and their solutions. our nation's conscience must see that what happens or does not happen to pregnant women behind bars is a human rights issue. the time to act is now. thank you. >> thank you, doctor sufrin. want to begin with a few questions and expression again of gratitude for sharing these incredibly dramatic and difficult personal stories with the public and the subcommittee. ms. umberger, did i hear you correctly that you endured solitary confinement for three weeks after giving birth without access to your infant? >> yes, sir.

that is what happened. in this room for solitary for three weeks, so many things were going through my mind. it was so hot in there, no air-conditioning. i would like at the bottom of the door for air. obviously i couldn't shower properly. i didn't even have my property. nobody would, could give me any, providing updates on how my daughter was doing. tucci passer hearing test? you know, did she, is she okay? yeah, i was scared. >> and you're still in the early days of feeling from surgery. >> absolutely. >> you testified that you are able to hold your newborn baby

for just two hours after giving birth and that you didn't see her again for almost three years. is that right? >> yes, sir. i had two hours to hold and look at her. i remember thinking just a pretty she was. like, i didn't deserve her. and i carried that memory. that's what i hold onto. >> ms. laboy, did i i understd correctly from your testimony that your granddaughter was born into a prison toilet after the prisoner medical staff ignored your daughters cries for help as she went into labor? >> yes, sir.

prison staff ignored her for hours, four days. that particular morning she gave birth into a bowl. she was ignored. my granddaughter was unresponsive. if it wasn't for my daughters quick thinking and the soma, i don't think my granddaughter would be here. >> and your daughter and her cellmate had to resuscitate -- >> yes, they did. my daughter did. the cellmate was behind the wall. she heard my daughter screaming for help, and she, , my daughter didn't know the baby wasn't crying. she was unresponsive, , so the summit was able to tell her through the wall to tap the baby and get the fluids out. >> and when the prison staff

finally arrived, they ridiculed. >> it was too late. when they arrived -- [inaudible] >> they made a joke. she took her first swim. >> after granddaughter have been born into prison told him that was response of the prison staff? >> yeah, they were very insensitive. they make jokes about it. >> when you learned as a parent and as a grandparent the circumstances of your granddaughters birth, how did you react, , how did that make u feel as a human being? >> it hurts. it was painful. she, actually my first grandchild, my daughter's first child. i felt helpless to know that my daughter was scared, alone. that they ignore her. they disregarded her.

they were very insensitive. so it really hurts me as her mother to know that they treated her like this. >> dr. sufrin, the subcommittee received dozens of reports. i want to emphasize that for my colleagues on the subcommittee. we are hearing some very powerful personal testimonies. the subcommittee has received dozens of reports from currently in formally incarcerated women that he went into labor and then they were told they needed to wait sometimes for days or a a week just to see a physician. you testified that access to health care may be variable substandard or even absent. i presume this means, doctor, some state prisons and just don't always have any qualified medical staff on-site? >> thank you, senator, for your question. and yes, that is true.

many jails especially small rural jails genetic medical staff on-site 24/7. and in those cases it's the custody officers who should always refer pregnant women with issues such as labor to a qualified medical provider or call 911. but that doesn't always happen. a 2019 report from from the prison policy initiative reviewed policies at 50 state department of corrections and the federal bureau of prisons. they found 24 states the not even codify that if they had pre-existing arrangement for where they would take pregnant women in labor. imagine that, no formal policy or protocol for where they would take a pregnant woman if she went into labor. they also found that 23 states policies didn't include screening and treatment for high risk pregnancies. but even at facilities that do have medical staff on-site, the correctional officer still the first point of contact. you can't just pick up the phone and call your obstetrician or

your midwife or get yourself to a hospital labor and delivery unit. so correctional officers are tasked with triaging and being the gatekeepers to medical care, and their sort of tasked with acting in the role of the nurse when you don't have any medical training to know when someone is having a pregnancy emergency or when they're in labor. what that looks like, you've heard what that looks like, is that someone could be neglected either intentionally or due to the lack of knowledge of the custody staff and she delivers in herself. >> thank you, dr. sufrin. chair durbin. >> after the drafting of the constitution, the decision was made to would be the bill of rights. ten provisions that are so basic and fundamental to the united states that there are set out in detail as part of our constitution. the eighth amendment to the

constitution provides excessive bail shall not be required nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishment inflicted. what have we heard today? is what we've heard is not cruel and unusual, god help me, can't imagine to endanger the lives of a new infant, to endanger the life of the mother. dr. sufrin, it seems to go beyond the physical, trying to measure the mental distress that ms. umberger, ms. laboy.org and others are going through at a time when they should be joyous, bringing new life in this world. can you speak to that issue? >> thank you, senator, for your question. and guess i can. 70% of incarcerated women have mental health conditions even before they go through, if there

pregnant, the trauma of birthing behind bars. so when you add to that the trauma, the degradation, the physical harm, that compounds and that can cause additional harm and psychiatric and mental health conditions as well. >> we think we are so enlightened, this generation of political leaders, myself included, because we speak and honest terms about mental illness, treating it, making sure that her health insurance covers it, being open about the aspect of trauma in what it does to a person's mind. we go through episodes of violence, crime, murder, and much of it is traced back to trauma that these young people experienced in early life. what i hear described today is trauma to these two witnesses, one, her daughter, and ms. umberger personally, have gone through in their lives. her daughter was facing a a s,

ms. umberger as well. that sentence did not include trauma and mental distress and cruel punishment. in fact, there is a constitutional guarantee that would not happen. ms. umberger, it's painful to even ask this question. but is your daughter put in foster care during the time that you didn't see her? >> yes, sir. >> and what is her status today? >> she's home. she's with her father. she lives with him full-time. they gave him full custody while i was still incarcerated. >> is it customary for the children to be put in foster care in these circumstances? >> i'm happy to add to the question, durbin. it depends. if there is a family member who is able to care for that infant, then that is what happens. but many people do not have a

trusted individual who has the resources and ability to care for a newborn. and in that case, yes, , the default is to come into the foster care system. >> can you give me any rationale for the removal of an infant from a new mother so that she cannot nurse her or care for her personally? >> no, i cannot. >> i can't either. i suppose there's some extraordinary cases involving public safety where you might be able to make that argument, but they which would be extraordinary. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, chair durbin. senator kennedy. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and thank you for calling this hearing. ms. umber, you were in a georgia state prison? >> yes, that is correct. >> okay. and ms. laboy come out by saying her name right? >> yes, sir. >> your daughter was in a state prison?

>> yes, york correctional. >> in georgia. >> york correctional in connecticut. >> well, i want to thank both of you for coming. i mean, your testimony was instructed but that sounds kind of sterile when you put it that way. it was also moving. i know these four colleagues well. hope we will have another hearing on the subject. i would like to sit down with them and others and try to figure how to address this problem. >> yeah. >> i've had this discussion with senator booker before. i think it, we need to address

the issue of solitary confinement in our prisons. we need to involve law enforcement. i'm hoping that another hearing we will offer the georgia state officials the chance to come in and tell us what happened here, and offer constructive suggestions. i i guess what i'm saying is, i pledge to try to sit down and see if we can address this problem. i'm going to have to leave and a second. i don't want you to be offended by that. we've got a boat going on. -- a vote. dr. sufrin, tell me your credentials again. >> i'm a a board-certified obstetrician gynecologist, i also have a doctoral degree. >> and you're a professor?

>> i'm a a professor at johns hopkins university. >> and the medical school or -- >> in the school of medicine and at the school of public health. >> okay. are you a shared professor or? >> i am not. >> all right. but you, you represent, or you are a part of a johns hopkins system? >> i am but i'm not represent johns hopkins. >> i understand, understand. well, if are going to solve this problem we've got to be candid with each other. do you have a twitter account? >> thank you, senator, for your question, but are here today to talk about my expertise on reproductive health care for incarcerated women. >> is your twitter account jail care? >> that is -- thank you, senator. that is a twitter account that is associated with the book that he published in 2017.

but i'm really here today to talk about my expertise on reproductive health care in pregnancy care incarcerated women. >> on, on, on september 29, 2010, on 2018, at 3:33, i want to read you one of your tweets. these are your words, not mine. quote, piper reminding us that gathering to discuss in the incarceration of women, girls. piper reminding us that gathering to discuss in the incarceration of women and girls is anecdote to white supremacists kavanaugh shit show. professor, did i read that

correctly? >> thank you for reciting that. i really here today to talk about research and in prison conditions for incarcerated pregnant women. >> where you speaking for johns hopkins when you sent this out? >> i was not speaking for johns hopkins. >> well, i'd like to solve this problem, professor, but we're not going to salt lake with that kind of attitude. thank you, ladies, for being here. i appreciate the courage that, that it took to come forward today. >> yes, sir. >> thank you. >> as tempted as i am, dr. sufrin, to take the bait, my suggestion is that we return to the substantive matter at hand, which is the widespread abuse and mistreatment of pregnant and

postpartum women in america's prisons and jails. and i'll yield to senator booker. >> thank you, mr. chairman. there's a wide room here for bipartisan work, and i'm grateful for my experiences with the first step act when we came forward on these issues and found from the white house, then the trunk white house, to the republican colleagues at and others. i want to take lycée senator durbin who really has been the champion of so many of these issues, and under his leadership and having the chance to partner with them on the first step act, we were able to make some progress. but clearly we still live in a nation when what goes on in our prisons is horrible, and what compounds that horror is the abject lack of knowledge that

these things are going on. i mean, i'm still shocked that our government, which is responsible, excuse me, article one branch of the constitution, article one branch being congress has a responsibility to provide oversight. we spend billions of dollars to incarcerate human beings, but there's an utter lack of knowledge about what our regular routine practice is in our american prisons, not to mention our american prisons and jails. and the testimony here today,, which is gutwrenching and painful, and i think the witnesses for being here and retelling what has to be trauma in your lives, and now as your family, it is urgent that this truth telling happen because it shocks the moral conscience of a country that allows these practices to go on.

and here's the painful truth, that we throw people into environments that we traumatize folks who often been traumatized. and most of the people that go to our prisons and jails come out again now more harmed and more hurt than when they went in. and so if this is really about public safety, we do things that undermine and insult the idea that our prisons and jails should be places, yes, a punishment, but also should be places that empower people, that when they come out they should never return. that empower people on pathways of redemption and rehabilitation. and it is grievously painful to

know these details, only some of which are being talked about here, about what happens to the most vulnerable people in our society who are survivors of sexual trauma, who struggle with mental health issues, who have often been victimized and who often struggle with addiction that we would put them into an environment that would so compound these problems. i cannot tell you the horrors of being put into solitary confinement. most countries call what we do to vulnerable people torture. ms. umberger, to you being in the immediate hours of postpartum and being put in solitary confinement after being traumatized, not for days but

for weeks, is unconscionable that it happens in this country. unconscionable what you were put through. as senator durbin says, it is cruel, it is fundamentally cruel. and i know, dr. sufrin knows this, that all the data shows that we empower women, we facilitate their connections to their children. we give them not just medical treatment but sociopsychological support that they actually have recidivism rates that crashed to the floor, and the bonds of the families, not only are they supported that the data shows clearly that even their children's run-ins with the law go far down.

we know from evidence and research that trauma is a generational, and we are creating not only assaults on individual dignity of the women, but we are hurting and harming families in ways that will haunt our society and those individuals directly affected. and so, mr. chairman, i am grateful for this hearing, but i ache. every prison and jail i have gone to shows me how much we waste taxpayer dollars causing more and more harm to our society and individuals we incarcerate, and how there are obvious, obvious ways that we could be investing in the well-being of people behind bars that would empower them to be successful in lives, in their lives, and empower their families here this is one of the more shameful elements of

american society. .. >> that shining lights on this can do anything, but move us and inspire us to find bipartisan solutions so that these horrors that belong in a long forgotten byzantine age should not exist in our society today. again, i'm sorry that you had to come here. this should not be necessary and what's even more painful is to know that the stories you told are not rare and not

unusual, but exist all crass this country at a rate that should shock the conscience of us all. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, senator booker. as you all may have noted, senator ossoff had to depart. he is assuredly to return, but he needed to go vote before they closed the vote. and i must say, i am honored to be surrounded by my democratic colleagues who all are trying to go and perform all of the duties that are expected of us most of the time simultaneously, but how honored i am to be surrounded by these men who are taking the care to highlight the issues that the rest of society, women, go through each and every day. thank you all for being here,

for being willing to share your painful and i would assume unbearable stories and leadership with the committee. i share senator booker's notion about having gone inside, but many jails and prisons up and down the state of california, men, women, juvenile and everything in between. and to know that we utilize taxpayer dollars to perpetuate this kind of hell is a shameful stain on our government and, you know, you have my commitment to continue to be a supportive advocate to end this. i have a 9-year-old daughter at that i come to this capital

every single day to work on behalf of and you know, were she to make a mistake in her life, and i know it is possible and for her to do that, and for any of us, as my grandmother would say, but for the grace of god there might i be. it is everything that i am, we can do. it's not just for our children, but for america's children to be able to make the kinds of change that your stories call us to make and so, again, thank you for being here, for your leadership, scholarship, advocacy and commitment for being willing to tell the story of so many, who may not ever have the opportunity to be in these halls, but whose stories are as valid, whether they're here or not.

i had a couple of questions that i wanted to give you all the opportunity to help to educate the american people who might be watching today's hearing about and one is related to the line of questioning that mr. did your ban, senator did your ban asked relative to mental health. i have a line of questioning relative to restraints. i'll start with miss laboy, am i pronouncing that correctly? >> yes, ma'am. >> i have a name with p's and z's and i know it's hard to get your name correctly. you talked about your daughter and how she was restricted with belly chains while appearing in court. can you talk to the american people who don't understand this experience, help them to

understand how this consignment impacts your daughter's physical and emotional well-being. >> thank you for that question. it's been a struggle for her. i remember every time i went through the court hearing there was a door that she comes in and i'd look at her feet, they were swollen, with the shackles on them, around her belly, but i feel like her mental health has been gotten worse since she had my granddaughter. she even went to postpartum by herself. there's no -- they didn't really give her medical attention for that, those kind

of things. like if she was home, you know, so i guess she tried to manage herself on her own. her phone calls, my letters, really she got through it by herself and she's still struggling with a lot of mental health six years later. >> thank you. it is a fortunate reality of so many, trying to figure out ways to manage trauma on your own without the tools or support that you would otherwise have access to or just a hug, sometimes. >> exactly. right? and thank you for what you are to go to tell your family's experience to make this system better for folks who might encounter it again. doctor sufrin, you have been an advocate in this--

in the space -- a leader in this space. the question i had, again, and in an effort to educate the american people who might be watching, who may find this hearing on youtube a year or so later. help us to think about what kinds of policy changes are needed at the bureau of prisons and the state and local level. as i said, i've been in all kinds and types of facilities. what kind of policy changes to needed to help protect women who are incarcerated from these kinds of physical, as well as mental wounds, that they might encounter during childbirth and prison? >> thank you, senator. for your question. there are many opportunities for policy and practice change that could improve conditions and the well-being of a pregnant and postpartum women in prisons and jails, as well as for their newborns. one is to find a pathway to

require medical standards of care. we heard earlier from senator durbin about the eighth amendment prohibiting cruel and unusual punishment and in fact, there's a precedent for requiring prisons and jails to provide access to medical care, not to do so would be considered a violation of the eighth amendment and that's in the supreme court case 1976, estelle versus gamble. however, that requirement for institutions of incarceration for medical care did not come with any system of oversight. any mandatory set of standards that prisons and jails have to follow. so we need a pathway in order to have a set of standards. these guidelines recommended standards do exist. it's just, they're operational. one potential pathway to get to requiring standards and oversight is to consider changes to medicaid, which currently exclude incarcerated

individuals, the so-called inmate exclusion clause. if we can modify that and open up funding for incarcerated people's health care, that can potentially come with some improvement and standards of care, and that includes for mental health care. so that's one set of policy changes that could potentially improve the quality of care. >> thank you so much, dr. sufrin. i'm prepared to turn to my colleague, senator bumenthal. >> thank you, senator butler and to all of our witnesses. i'll try to avoid repeating what you may have already told us, but i think that this topic is so important and the problem is so prevalent that some of the answers may actually merit

repeating. we're talking here about interviews that this subcommittee has conducted with 100 formerly or currently incarcerated survivors of pregnancy in state prisons or jails where they have been denied proper care. when a prisoner, say it's a male prisoner, breaks a leg or suffers a concussion or a cut, they are provided medical care. often inadequate medical care, but there's at least a recognition that the broken leg has to be put in a cast or the cut has to be given stitches. some medical care is provided. what we're seeing with is the women who have been through

pregnancy or postpartum experiences, 200 documented human rights abuses are simply beyond the pale in a civilized society. at least in the united states of america. and there's no way that it serves the purposes of incarceration. one of those purposes is punishment, but what we're talking about here is simply lack of humanity. that in no way is an acceptable form of punishment. and it is focused on women. our investigation spans 32 states. >> it's not isolated or unique to one state. some states do better than others. one of our witnesses is from

connecticut, my state. i want to thank careen laboy for sharing your experience which i know has been deeply painful. i want to thank you for talking to me earlier. >> thank you, sir. >> before this hearing and giving me some of your insights into your daughter's experience. the simple fact is that the state of condition con -- connecticut in denying proper care not only violated basic deseny decentsy, and that resulted in a settlement. they don't elicit

responsibility, but may be a sign of it. more importantly, it caused connecticut to adopt a statute after your horrifying ordeal, connecticut has attempted to reform the way it treats pregnant and postpartum incarcerated women at the york correctional institution both through legislation and a shift in who provides health services at the facility. pregnant inmates now that you're given counseling and information about their pregnancy, medical care including periodic monitoring and pre-natal vitamins, a diet to support a healthy pregnancy, sanitary materials and access to qualified medical health care professionals for postpartum treatment. at least that's what they are supposed to receive. that's what they're entitled to

receive under law. and i'm proud that the state legislature has moved forward with these reforms. as a result of your experience and, frankly, your advocacy. so i'm here to say thank you to you and to tiana, and navaeh, your granddaughter. >> thank you. >> who is about to enter first grade. >> yes. >> in new briton. >> congratulations to her. >> thank you so much. >> and your daughter will be released this fall, perhaps as early as october, and congratulations to her on completing her incarceration, but my question to you is, do you think these reforms are having a positive effect on the treatment of pregnant and postpartum women who are incarcerated, as far as you

know, in the connecticut system? >> i believe so. i haven't recently been up there, but they've been on lockdown and you know, other situations she was dealing with, but i believe she made some changes. sadly, we had to come to this to make some changes happen, but they are getting -- she's making some changes in the prison as far as pre-natal care and others and i hope that it would just be worldwide, not just connecticut. >> and your granddaughter has been in your home, correct? >> yes. since she was five weeks, she came evaluate from the hospital to my home. >> and from what i can tell she's been the light of your life. >> yes, definitely, yes.

she's a blessing. >> probably tiana will live at least for a while with you when she's released along with your granddaughter? >> she'll be close, yes. she wants to have her own place and stuff, so-- >> naturally. >>, but she's going to be close and spending a lot of time with the family. it's been years. >> you've been through a lot. >> yes, sir. >> we're here not just to decry and denounce that inhumanity, but also to celebrate enormous courage and strength of women like you and your daughter, tiana, and navaeh, even though she's only now six years old. >> yes. >> who are working your way through a real ordeal and the after effects of it, but showing great, grace and

dignity and grit, which can be an example for us all. and your advocacy has special meaning today and in connecticut, thank you so much. >> thank you, sir, it means a lot. >> thank you, senator blumenthal. senator welch. >> thank you all for being here. what a wonderful mom you are. >> thank you. >> and grandmother, too. it's amazing how you find it deep in you to be able to be so supportive of your daughter and your grandchild. so, thank you so much. >> thank you, sir. took a lot of strength and courage to be here. >> it did. you've got a not of strength and a lot of courage. so thank you. and i just can only imagine what it means to your daughter to know the care you're taking for her and her child, so good for you. doctor, i'm wondering if you--

you were probably asked this already and don't repeat necessarily, but what are the specific things that should be done to care for women giving birth while incarcerated, that should be part of the routine and then address some of the resistance that is -- that's put in the way of treating folks who are going to be delivering the right way? >> thank you, senator. thank you, senator, for your question. the services and care that should be provided to incarcerated pregnant women should be equivalent to the community standards of care. there are well established guidelines, evidence-based practices that i've been practicing for decades when it comes to caring for pregnant women, whether they're in the community or incarcerated and incarcerated pregnant women should be cared for by those

same exact medical standards. >> on top of that, which includes pre-natal visits, ultrasounds, laboratory tests according to established guidelines. on top of that, women who are incarcerated and pregnant need additional support, additional mental health support for the trauma they're enduring, whether or not they have existing mental health conditions. as we've heard today and as this represents so many more women, the conditions even under the best of circumstances, which are few and far between are inherently traumatic and so additional supports are needed. some examples of those include and we've heard from senator booker earlier a little about this. providing doula support for incarcerated pregnant women. during their pregnancy. during wild birth in the hospital and afterwards. while they're in the hospital undergoing childbirth, incarcerated women should be

treated with the same dignity and respect of any woman who is giving birth. she should not under any circumstances have to give birth in chains. this is the marker of a barbaric society, a bar bake practice that should not happen. it is medically unsafe for the mother and for the baby and it is an affront to their dignity as well. >> thank you. by the way, you know, we're talking about giving birth, pregnancy, but the medical standard, shouldn't that apply across the board to the medical needs of folks who are incarcerated? >> absolutely. medical standards of care that would apply to nonincarcerated women absolutely apply to incarcerated women as well. >> yeah, i'm sorry, miss umberger, i missed your testimony, but you've gone through this and maybe for my benefit, describe a little bit more what you went through and

what you'd recommend. >> well, giving birth, the process of giving birth in the hospital was traumatic, and seeing her for two hours before she was taken was tough. and i was worried about getting mrsa with is woman and i was asking for cleaning supplies and next thing i was in solitary. no access for medical care and the last person to get food for the compound. as soon as it gets to you, it's hard as a brick or it's really, really cold. it's not well, it's not good.

and then, you know, having my children in foster care and me getting out and having the mission to find a home and that search was difficult as well. i had to buy a house nine months post incarceration. so, but, yeah, i'm still healing. it's been -- my daughter will be six and i'm still healing, you know. >> thank you. well, thank you very much for that. i yield back. >> thank you, senator welch. and ms. umberger, you testified that it feels like your kids were being sentenced, too, and punished along with that. can you elaborate on that? >> yes, so as we have started the reunification process, we've been in it for about a year now, got to know them

pretty well and they're sitting around the dinner table and a memory-- something will trigger a memory, do you remember that time when miss so-and-so did this to me or so-and-so did that to me and do you remember this? that's tough. mom, did you know that eli wasn't allowed to eat fresh food, he could only eat leftovers and he had to stay in his room. it's as if my children will doing time. some of the things that they were saying is what experienced as well. it's look he was punished for being in foster care like as if he had been bad. >> when in fact, this subcommittee has found through our work investigating the conditions faced by children in foster care in georgia, those conditions do mirror detention

conditions, in group homes, for example. in fact, we've even seen suggestions by some senior officials in the state of georgia to place foster children in juvenile facilities. and you're incarcerated, forced to endure this horrific experience as a delivering mother, all the while your children were also being punished. i appreciate you helping the public understand you're not the only one harmed by the way these situations are handled and managed. i want to focus on the fact that you testified prison staff told you you were required to undergo a c-section, even though you expressed your desire for vaginal delivery, correct? >> yes, yes, i wanted a natural

birth. i knew i could have a natural birth considering i'd had a v-back, which is vaginal birth after cesarean. i knew what was possible, that it was medically possible for me to do this. but i was scheduled for a cesarean and then, it was placed on my credit. i was also billed for it as well. so, yeah, that was-- i can i don't even have control over my own body? like the judge said about that when he sentenced me to prison. there was none of that mentioned. >> you were required to undergo surgery you didn't want and then you were required to pay for it. >> yes, sir.

yes, sir. >> required by the state. >> yes, sir. the department of corrections, georgia department of corrections. >> dr. sufrin, the subcommittee received seven other reports and i want people to know that we've been looking at this for a few months, so a relatively small team here and the fact that we've received seven reports from incarcerated women they were also told by prison staff that they were required to undergo a c-section, suggests to me the problem that this phenomenon is much, much more widespread. is it medically sound to require incarcerated pregnant women to undergo a c-section? >> no, sir. thank you for your question. to elaborate, having a routine policy, whether it's a medical policy or a custody policy to require women to have a

c-section as their mode of delivery is medically unsound. best medical practice is this should be a decision that is between the patient and their obstetrician or their midwife, their caregiver. based on their circumstances and if someone has no medical indication for a c-section, a vaginal birth, and in the case of ms. umberger who has already had -- and it's not a safe policy to routinely schedule c-sections. >> a lot of jails are using contract arrangements for medical services, correct. >> yes. >> what's more lucrative from a billing standpoin vaginal delivery or c-section? >> and major surgery does cost

more money than a vaginal birth. >> it may be worth looking into if there are correct, that control the course of treatment for patients in their care for potentially more complicated surgeries. we have identified more than 100 reports nationwide that pregnant and postpartum women in prisons and jails were medically neglected. ms. laboy, when your daughter started experiencing abdominal pain and discharge the medical staff dismissed her concerns. giving her a heating pad and telling her just to lie down. >> as a mother, how does it make you feel that's how your daughter was treated entering labor. >> thank you for that question.

it was hard being that i kind of talked to her on the phone, like mostly all the time before all this took place. i think that there's no word to explain how i felt as a mother. this was my first grand baby. i became a grandmother while my daughter was in prison and it should have been something that -- it it would have -- we should have been born in a hospital. she should have been born in a safe environment, not an unsanitary place, not into a toilet bowl. i don't think any mother would want to hear that her

granddaughter or grandson was born into a toilet bowl. it was very painful to know that they disregarded my daughter's dignity and her well-being, it hurts a lot to this day. >> dr. sufrin, i presume that giving someone a heating pad and sending them back to their prison cell to lie down is not the standard of care for a pregnant woman entering labor. >> no, sir, it is not. and ms. laboy's daughter sounds like she could be pre-term, light bleeding, change in vaginal discharge and they require urgent answers from a qualified provider and not a

heating pad. >> ms. umberger, after you gave birth, a male sergeant refused to leave the room and watched while a nurse took care of you? >> yes. >> how did that experience impact you at the time and now? >> i still remember -- i just, i was in shock when he refused to leave the room, you know. i was paralyzed from the waste down. i had been in surgery, you know, nothing about me even showed any past violent behaviors or anything like that, you know? my dignity was taken down to the knees of vulnerability. like i was--

it was like i was not a real person, like, you know, and the fact that he was just looking, i still remember to this day like it was yesterday. nobody should ever have it go through that ever. >> i want to thank from the bottom of my heart our panel today and dr. sufrin, of course, we're grateful for your expertise and for the precision and the research and evidence-based information that you've shared with the senate today and i hope you don't mind if i extend my deepest gratitude to ms. umberger and miss laboy for speaking today in public, in front of the

nation on something so deeply painful and personal for you. and before i wrap up and summarize what i think we've learned and where we go from here, just like to offer each of you the opportunity if you desire to say anything you want to share with the senate, with the public, with the nation about what you've been through and what you think this country needs to do to change for the better. ms. umberger, we'll begin with you, please. >> first, as i had received earlier, in that basement and looking out the caged window wondering if anybody cared. i think what you've done here today and how you've brought the other members of the senate here to listen and actually show that they -- that they care is a great start. i never thought i would be here speaking with you.

and just when a woman is giving birth, even the paper says she is an incarcerated woman. morally know that she is a mother, she is a sister, she is a daughter, she is more than a number and should be treated as such. i did this today for the women who are behind those walls who are still actively going through things that we described here today and our country, it needs to be better. it should be better. i was promised better.

so thank you. >> thank you, ms. umberger. ms. laboy. >> thank you. just want to say before i give my last statement. >> it's harder to know that -- to know that my daughter went through this sitting next to someone that basically experienced this makes me emotional. no family, no mother should go through this. they did not receive medical care, my daughter didn't receive medical care, they were

ignored, treated like animals and i wouldn't even say an animal because i have a -- i have a cat and not even cats give birth by themselves like the way my daughter did, like an animal, like someone disregarded her. no family should endure this. no mother should endure this kind of pain. they were ignored. their human rights were just not protected. their dignity was taken. no children should have been born in a toilet bowl. and i want to thank you, i want to thank everyone that's here today because it means they show that there is hope for change. that, you know, the prison could be better, that no family

have to deal with this ordeal, this kind of pain. we've just got to do better. i hope that this makes things better as part of change. and i just want to say that i thank everyone that's here, that's listening, that's watching. that's going to watch it down the line. that no matter if you're behind bars, they should have the same medical treatment after they were home. they should have the same rights and they should protect their basic human rights. they should not be treated like this. we need to do better in the prison system. >> thank you, ms. laboy, and ms. umberger, i haven't been able to get out of my mind the

part of the story you shared with us just after you'd delivered, just after your surgery, and you're taken down into the basement, into a caged room subjected to indignity and you told us how you were sitting there, laying there, just wondering if anybody knew that this is how human beings are treated in america. and whether anyone would care. and how alone you must have felt and as you said a moment ago, you were betrayed. you were promised better than this. and i-- right now as we sit here in this wood paneled chamber, there are women on prison wards

laboring, bleeding, calling for help, right as we speak, facing the same kind of inhumanity and neglect that ms. umberger did. happening in jails across this country, with taxpayer dollars, it makes you think about how the united states goes around the world lecturing other nations on human rights, but how can we hear what we've heard today and accept that even basic human rights are being protected in our society. and i will say. dr. sufrin, that despite the strange moment earlier with my colleague, i think that there is the potential for

bipartisanship, but it takes the courage of this kind of testimony for politicians who may not naturally be sympathetic to hear directly from people who have been through this kind of thing, what it means to get it beyond numbers and that's why it's so powerful what you've done today. and there will be hundreds of thousands, or millions of people across the country who will see tonight your testimony and understand better what's being done with their money in their name, supposedly consistent with our constitution when clearly, it's not. and this won't be the end of this subcommittee's engagement as we continue this inquiry. thank you all so, so much for being here. the hearing record will remain open for one week for questions submitted to the record. and questions submitted by

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