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just getting started, building 100,000 miles of new infrastructure to reach those who need it the most. >> charter communicaons supports c-span as a public seice along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. host: it is saturday, december 14. the biggest issue for voters the past election was the economy, especially inflation. donald trump promised once in office he would bring down prices quickly and make america more affordable. we are asking what is your confidence level in president-elect trump to tackle inflation? share your thoughts. republicans are on (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000.

independents, (202) 748-8002. you can send us a text at (202) 748-8003. include your first name and city and state. we are on social media at facebook.com/cspan and x at @cspanwj. welcome to washington journal. we start with a headline from the wall street journal. inflation is stuck. can trump unstick it? here's a portioofhe article. "inflation numbers suggested progress driving down rising costs haveed. prices fceries were up 1.6% from a year e. they were up 27% from february 2020. consumer prices were up 2.7% in a far cry from 1% notchedier.

in 2t a tad higher than nth before. new data showed a month over month change was more than economist had expected. in his interview on sunday on meet the press, trump spoke about his economic goals, including grocery prices. [video] >> i'm looking to bring prices down. i won on the border. they like to say immigration. i break it down more to the border. i won on groceries. very simple word, groceries. i started using the word groceries. when you buy apples or bacon, when you buy eggs, they were double and triple the price over a short period of time.

we will bring those prices way down. host: that was on sunday. william says, "got to be better than the current administration because they did not bother with itt all." "the president-elect said will place tariffs on all imported products and that alone will escalate information -- inflation." "i don't have faith in the president to lower the deficit or bring inflation down." melvin in virginia, democrat. caller: how are you today? thank you for taking my call. the columnist jennifer rubin stated recently america suffers an epidemic of ignorance -- from an epidemic of ignorance.

america has never educated its people in economics. no one understands what causes inflation and how tariffs work. my understanding is, if you print $8 trillion extra to pay for the pandemic, you are going to have inflation. that is natural. you cannot print extra money without causing the price of goods to go down -- or go up, i'm sorry. a tariff is a tax on items we will import, which means the government will get the money from the tax but that tax will be passed on to the consumer. he is going to raise money but he's going to raise it on the backs of the people who buy everyday products. sadly, as a country, because we

were never taught economics we have no idea what causes inflation. my understanding is, is the extra money that was pumped into the economy has to be drained out slowly. that is what the federal reserve was doing. that is why inflation was coming under control. host: what do you think will happen in the next administration with prices? caller: if he institutes these tariffs, we will have more inflation. prices are going to go up. they will be passing on those increases to the consumer. if he had stuck with the plan we have, we would eventually -- interest rates were because that was the process that was needed

to get inflation down. inflation was coming down. but because the american people don't have any patience, you know, they see the price of eggs or the price of gas and they think biden was not doing a good job. he was actually doing the proper thing. host: roy in california, republican. caller: good morning. i'm calling from chino, california. i was born and raised in nashville. my two sisters and their families live in riverside. my wife and i have been divorced and remarried three times. i was setting that up, the fact i am broke as a joke. i'm living on about $2000 a month in southern california. this inflation pain is real. to quote president trump, he won on the word groceries. for some reason a lot of people

don't understand this. if the price of diesel fuel is six dollars a gallon, who pays for that ultimately? you think walmart and target are going to pay for that? take is passed on to the consumer. he's not going to wave a magic one and get inflation -- she's not going to create deflation. the fact he will drill, baby, drill and get the price of oil down to record lows, that is how the price of groceries is going to go down. host: let's talk to anna in south windsor, connecticut. democrat. caller: i live from day-to-day and i try to budget and buy what i need, not what i want. i'm calling to ask the president's wife if she can take care of the president.

he's going to africa and he did not wear a mask. just ordinary protections here. i believe it is possible musk could have rigged the election. he may be behind those drums but he's quiet. my main thing today is on our president that secretary blinken. -- somebody blinken. he is the heart -- secretary blinken. he's the hardest working man. give him some kind of award. even if trump comes in and does it. he needs to be recognized. host: julio. auburn, washington. republican. caller: we have to give donald

trump a chance and let you guys that are experts on financing, give him a chance to bring down the cost of gas, natural gas, health care. we have a governor in washington that is a fool. he is stepping down. he's not even going to live in the state of washington. he is moving to idaho. you guys in the media, give him a chance. thank you. host: andrew. sterling, virginia. democrat. caller: happy holidays. i want to say i have never been more ashamed of this country for reelecting this traitorous sexual predator more on for a president -- moron for a president once again. to the american people like your previous caller who said drill, baby, drill is the solution to all these high prices, we have

basically sold out our country over the price of bacon and eggs and gas. how ridiculous is that? these generations who fought in all these wars. they have to be rolling over in their graves over what these so-called american patriots have done. giving president trump the office once again. trump will do nothing to lower the inflation. all he and his billionaire buddies are going to do is continue to suck the money out of this country and enrich themselves. they will do nothing to help the workingman. host: but, you know, people voted for trump to lower prices. don't you think that will be a major priority for him, andrew? caller: no. his priority will be simply to

enrich himself, his family and his billionaire buddies. i guarantee you the first thing they will do is go after social security, medicare, medicaid. that is where the money is at. all this talk about removing $2 trillion of worth from the budget is a joke. those entitlements is where the money is at and they will take that money to further give tax cuts to the corporations and the billionaires. that is their only concern. americans, mark my words. in four years they will be worse off. this stupid talk about drill, baby, drill is the solution to everything is so ridiculous and ignorant. host: earlier this week, president biden gave a speech about his economic policy achievements. he acknowledged prices are still too high for americans. [video] >> the economic growth is not without pain.

the entire world faces a spike in inflation due to disruptions from the pandemic and putin's war in ukraine. we acted quickly to get inflation down. inflation came down to pre-pandemic levels. wages have increased. too many working and middle-class families struggle with high prices for housing and groceries in the daily needs of life. inflation has continued to fall. we are entering a new phase. with the outcome of the election we are facing an inflection point. do we continue to grow the economy from the middle out and the bottom up? support unions and working families or do we move backwards? do we backslide to where the economy benefits those of the top while the lower classes struggle? host: your confidence in

president-elect trump to tackle inflation. inflation ticked up in november. will the fed cut rates next week? it says inflation is moving in the wrong direction. qs inflation picked up for a second straight month on a rise in food and gas prices, underscoring the final stretch of the federal reserve's battle against sharply rising prices has become more challenging. it says that -- it describes core inflation and interest rates. we will be watching that when they meet again. bill florida, republican line. what do you think about president-elect trump's ability to bring down inflation? caller: i think he will do a great job. the caller from virginia and a

lot of these democrats are hallucinating. how can they say the last four years have been good when everything is tripled in price? he will secure the border. we will get these prices down on food. it is ridiculous. i'm living on a social security check and barely getting by and i own my home. i can barely get by. trump did it before and he will do it again. host: i want to ask about tariffs. the reuters article here with the headline americans are sour on tariffs if they spark inflation, what do you think about the tariffs president-elect trump has promised to impose? do you think those will raise prices or help the economy? caller: i really don't think he's going to raise tariffs. i think that is just a ploy to get everybody to wake up and work with america instead of

fighting america. mexico is not our friend. they are letting these people through. why don't they drill some wells that in mexico and start new towns down there with the people come from all these other countries that are dictatorships? why can't we send troops in and take out those dictatorships that are killing those people? there are a lot of things that can be done. i don't think he will do the tariffs. that is just something to get everybody to go along with what he wants to do. host: nina in florida, democrat. caller: good morning. i am a proud democrat. i feel like the inflation will go down. we have a new regime coming. of -- regime coming of very smart people. if they were so good at economics, they would be running for president or trying to change their state. if you look at the state of washington and california and

oregon, there is no hope for those people over there. they think they are experts on it. host: you said the people coming in. are there cabinet nominees or people coming into the new administration you especially admire when it comes to the economy? caller: people coming in from the outside of the government. the government -- these are new people with new ideas and common sense. we have got to change the attitude of our government employees and the people up there. i don't want to lay everybody off but we have got to start looking at things in a different way than we have the last four years. the tariffs he did with china last time he was president, nobody was screaming prices were high. prices did not go up until the democrats took office for four years.

anyway, i hope everybody calms down and we need to look ahead to the future and i will be proud of our country. thank you. host: this is usa today. some nominees have drawn criticism. why his treasury pick has a smoother path. that is on usa today. it talks about treasury nominee scott bessent and his background. rob in new york, independent. caller: i would like to know who picks your stories that you guys talk about. yesterday it was do you support term limits of the supreme court for the fifth time. to today's question, donald trump has got to help. everything joe biden and the democrats have done for the last four years has been negative. our borders are open. people are dying from fentanyl.

we have a media we can't trust and lies to us every day. are they going to change? i really don't think america is going to put up with this crap any longer. host: who do you trust in the media? caller: who do i trust? i trust people you have probably never heard of. jimmy door, tucker carlson. anybody not mainstream. if i see cnn, msnbc, any networks or people on your channel, i assume every word out of their mouth is a lie. we have years of experience to prove that. as far as the media goes, you have to look out for it. if you're turning on the tv hoping to get news that matters, you are not getting anything at all. this thing with the drones that's going on now, is our government that inept that they

don't know where they are coming from? host: we are going to have an entire segment on drones and drone security at 8:00 a.m. i hope you stay with us on that. we will get a lot more details. host: kenny in kentucky, republican. caller: how is it going? host: it's going great. caller: i wanted to comment on the democrat talking about trump and all these taxes. he threatened to do that. it works from both sides. they are going to come in and have their little meetings. they are not going to be taxed to death all these over -- over all these other countries. that is the way i see it. he is going to make the country good again hopefully. if everyone gives him a chance instead of ringing him up on

charges again -- bringing him up on charges again. host: trump defended his approach to tariffs on meet the press on sunday. [video] >> ultimately consumers pay the price of tariffs. >> i don't believe it. >> do you guarantee american families will pay more? >> i can't guarantee tomorrow. i can say if you look at my -- pre-covid, we had the greatest economy in the history of our country and i had a lot of tariffs on different countries. in particular, china, which took in hundreds of billions of dollars and we had no inflation. in fact, when i handed it over they did not have inflation for a year and a half. they went almost two years based on what i had created. then they created inflation with energy and spending too much. i think we will -- i'm a big

believer in tariffs. i think they are beautiful. it will make us rich. host: steve senus this on x. "condering his "solution," which is tariffs and is inflationary, i have zero confidence." we are talking about the topic of inflation and your confidence level in president-elect trump to tackle that issue. we will hear from paul, a democrat in alabama. caller: about trump being able to do anything with the economy, i would like to remind some people when covid was here -- you showed a clip on biden talking about covid. when trump was in office and we had covid, you had people lined up in cars for miles waiting in

line to get boxes of food and boxes of water. that was part of what created the inflation. it was worldwide. biden did an excellent job. he created more jobs for americans that had been in the past. the other thing. prices went up because of the covid incident. trump put tariffs on the farmers. not the farmers, china. the farmers had to pay for it. what did trump do? he offered the farmers of bailout. he had to give them billions of dollars because their seeds were rotting in the ground and in silos. now what is trump planning on doing? he's got robert f kennedy, who

don't believe in vaccines -- if we didn't have a vaccine, what would've happened during covid? he's cutting back on vaccines. that's crazy. the other thing now, they are going to cut the health care. you are not going to have vaccines. you are not going to have the health care going into medicaid and medicare or social security. he will cut all of the medical benefits that one could have if a vaccine do come. he's creating a pandemic, another pandemic when you cut down on vaccines. host: let me move on to jim in highland, indiana. republican. caller: i would like to naked correction to the last

guy's comment. biden did create jobs but they were out of a percentage that were government jobs. these things in space, one of two things. b, it's the possibility of china testing to see what we are going to do. here is the problem in all reality. host: i hear your point. we will talk about drones starting at 8:00 a.m. i want to stick with the concept of inflation and the economy in general. what are your thoughts on what president-elect trump will be able to do once in office? caller: trump, his objective is to get jobs in and to do that he has to create more jobs. he has to get some of these companies like john deere and

whirlpool that are building new factories in mexico back here. how was he going to do it? he will put a high tariff on. it will affect china. china will have a backlog. how is china going to get us? they do the chemicals for farmers and other situations. there is one plus trump trump about. trump trump -- about trump. he wants to have his head on the mountain, rushmore. he has to make everybody happy. how can you make one person happy and another person sad? when i was overseas the person in taiwan told me one thing i never forgot. when we make a product, we make it so it sells in the u.s. we have one big card we can play with china. it could lead to world war iii

like we did with japan. we have to step down and either have everything come in cheap from china and we are buying it and everybody is happy. the factories will start moving there. like obama once said, we will be a service country. host: leon in laurel, maryland. independent line. caller: how are you doing this morning? i'm 79 years old. my family has been here on my mother's side since 1695. i got a history of this country from my grandparents, my parents, all the guys in my neighborhood that i grew up with.

you can talk to malcolm -- i talked to malcolm x when i was 18. donald trump is the personification of every white male that black people and they different people -- native people have encountered since 1513 with the spanish. he is a pathological liar. he is a serial sex offender. host: what do you think about the inflation specifically? caller: ok. here's what i will say about that. he inherited 75 months of growth, economic growth from obama. trump did absolutely nothing with the economy. all that -- obama cleaned of george bush's mess. what happened was, trump

inherited a very strong -- he should be charged with negligent homicide for 450,000 deaths in the pandemic because he did nothing with that. check out the people who were in his cabinet. these are not democrats. these are not independents. these are republicans. i had to give it to him. he is a superb con artist. he inflated the country $6 trillion in debt. he did nothing it is not going to do anything now. if you have a person -- i first encountered trump in the 1970's. i'm originally from philadelphia. i used to go to new york all the time. i thought he was a smart alec white male, a con artist. when he came to atlantic city

with the casinos, everybody in philadelphia and new jersey saw who he was. he stiffed contractors. he is just a con artist. host: we have to move on to julie in st. paul, minnesota. democrat. caller: sorry. can you hear me? host: yes, we can. caller: i'm probably going to say some of the same things i have heard from others on inflation. inflation came down with biden. i think he did a lot of things to make that happen. yeah, it did tick up in november but this is not all the president's responsibility either. a lot of it is what he calls reflation. these companies are taking advantage of that. that is what he was working with.

that is not easy to come back down again. i heard somebody talking about the tariffs with how you put tariffs on one thing and then it affects another sector, like with the steel with china. another thing, china quit taking a lot of our too, china is taking a lot of our garbage, our plastic waste because of that deal. there is all kinds of consequences for these tariffs that people don't realize. i don't think it is a threat like another caller said. he's going to do and is going to cause more hard relations. he's already done that with mexico and canada after he updated the last deal with them. now, he's going after them, calling canada the 51st state or suggesting -- very insulting. very insulting.

i don't understand all the people cowering down to him. people need to stand up to this. one more thing about this topic that i haven't heard yet this morning is on the great deportation. all these people who are working and have been here for years working and paying taxes, they are paying towards our social security and everything. i agree with another caller, these billionaires are going after our social security and medicare system. it is pure nonsense for him to even talk one little bit about cutting taxes for the rich, but that is who he is in there for. he is in there for the billionaires, and anyone who thinks different, i don't know what they are watching. fox and all these other people no one has heard of. all that i hear from the republicans, from the trumpers, they don't dig very deep. i read a lot of articles.

every time they come up with something i read and read. and they have the same old line and guess where it comes from? fox news. host: minneapolis on the republican line, richard muir next. -- richard, you are next. caller: wow, i can't believe all the lies. if you are white, you are racist and you're going to take away the social security. that is a bunch of hogwash. i wish people would get informed. you have to read one of trump's books, "the art of the deal." a lot of his tariff talks are bluffs to these other countries. you can't just come out and say, well, i'm bluffing. he has to follow through. one other thing -- a couple other things. two other things. the tariffs trump and on china were not revoked by biden.

so, and we saved our steel industry. if we had a war we would have to have a steel industry. he saved the steel industry, which many republicans and democrats were bought off and ga ve the industry to these other countries. so, it's just disgusting how uninformed people are. they get on there and they call him all kinds of names and racist, and we have been through all that, and people read through it, and took over the house and senate. it's terrible. i can't believe it. inflation was started by biden putting all those restrictions on oil drilling. he stopped the pipeline. then, he stopped all the oil drilling on government land.

that spiked the inflation all over the world. people don't understand it. there was a farmer on the channel and he said, i have to put on 200 pounds of nitrogen for every acre of land in order to get a crop. nitrogen is made out of oil. a big combine, big crop, big tractor, they have to buy gas for that. most farmers have to have a thousand acres or more to even get a 3% profit. i wish people would get informed. host: got it, richard. this was an interview with time magazine. you may know the time magazine chose president-elect donald as their person of the year for the second time this year. they asked him this question. if the prices of groceries don't come down, will your presidency

be a failure this is what he said. i don't in so. look, th got them up, i would ke to bring them down. its hard to bring things down cehey are up, you know? it's very hard, but i think they will. i think that energy is going to bring them down. i think a better supply chain is going to bring them down, you know. the supply chain is still broken, broken. you see it. you can read that it time magazine if you would like to read the full article. this is a democrat in ohio, greg, good morning. caller: congratulations, president-elect trump. you convinced your voters in america that the sky is falling. i have news for you, it's not. no president, no president, has the jurisdiction and authority over the free market. no one. but people correlate gas prices with the prices of goods. prices of gas have been

decreasing for the past two years. why hasn't cooperate or a big mac -- a whopper or a big mac, the price gone backwards? i don't trust a big felon and a person convicted of fraud. i don't trust anything that he says, but the voters spoke and they do. six months from now, 12 months from now, the prices of goods are still going to increase. he is bamboos -- is bamboozling you. african-americans, look at his cabinet. not one african-american on his cabinet, but he is a president for everyone. have a nicda host: on, have little nfence in trump to tackle inflation. trump to tackle inflation. um proposals beyond energy production and reducing governmentpeing aimed at addressing inflation through various economic levers.

these measures will instead contribute to higher inflation due to increased cost. duke in stonington, maine. independent. caller: good morning, c-span. i have zero confidence in donald trump doing anything about the economy. about inflation. i don't know who can. i think this inflation and economy thing has gotten so out of hand. i don't think any one person is going to be able to do anything. i hate to sound like doom and gloom, but i have said for a while that in my opinion all i can see is the only way to maybe get out of this mess is to, i hate to see it, is for this country to go belly up, wipe the slate clean, and start anew. host: what is it mean to go belly up? caller: like what happened in 1929. host: the depression?

caller: yes, and i hate to think it. if it happens this time, if you think 1929 was bad, it will look like a cakewalk compared to today. host: why do you think we would go into a depression? caller: well, i don't want to say that we are going to, but how else are you going to -- you have gone so far in the hole. it looks like there is no way that you will be able to, you know, bring your finances and stuff under control. people file bankruptcy. what else can you do? i'm just thinking there is so much that we are in the hole so far and stuff. it makes me laugh what donald trump says about buying groceries. he hasn't bought a dozen eggs or a gallon of milk in his life. someone else does it for him. it is put on his account. then they send the bill each

month, or whatever they do, to his businesses and they pay the bills. the only way that he knows is because he said people tell about it. his own experience doing it? no. that's it. host: morristown, pennsylvania, democrat, good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i am a first-year listener and first-time caller. regarding food prices and americans on the left and the right, are you aware that there is a bird flu epidemic that caused the death of millions of chickens and raised the price of eggs and chicken? out of the 130 nations that are part of the u.n., what country would you want to move to that has lower food, oil, and gas prices than the united states? name the country. are you packing up or staying home and continuing your

uninformed whining? with the large number of slaughterhouse workers said to be deported by trump's immigration policy, the names and addresses of your family members and friends who will be stepping into those jobs under the same working conditions and wages to keep food prices low as possible. the same question applies to the fieldworkers in the 90-degree heat and humidity who will now be deported. the same question applies to workers repairing, replacing, and building new roofs in 90-degree plus heat and humidity who will now be deported. the same question applies to the workers doing landscaping and snow removal, well everyone else is sleeping, who will now be deported. the same applies to workers making the beds and doing other hotel/motel work for tips will now be deported. and you think that food prices are not going to immediately and

dramatically go up? it is estimated they will cost nearly $1 trillion to deport these people who are planned for deportation. what else can be done with that nearly $1 trillion, if not add it to the national debt? i need the names and addresses of your -- host: norman, got your point. robert in greenville, texas. good morning. caller: good morning. i will try to make this as simple as i can. anytime you put a tariff on imported goods, it rises the cost of those goods substantially. anytime you rise the price, obviously the price that the consumer pays goes up. host: let me ask you a question. a caller brought this up. mr. trump did put tariffs on in his first term, and mr. biden

kept those tariffs. so, what you think of that? caller: that's history. what trump is talking about now is going to be putting additional tariffs in. it is only going to raise the prices. host: do you think that those tariffs were responsible for raising prices before? the previous tariffs? i'm just asking. caller: no. i think we came off of a catastrophe across the world with covid, and businesses were shut down and everything, and when everybody left their jobs and went home it had to have massive outlays from the government to support these people. trump ran up about an $8 trillion deficit. biden of course added another 4 trillion to 5 trillion to it.

all of that deficit turns into the government's ability to keep these programs going. tariffs are not -- it is like i said, it is simple. if you take the product that consumers buy in this country and you add an additional, say, 25% like canada and mexico on, who is going to pay that 25%? trump makes the claim that somehow those countries are going to be sending us a check for each container ship that comes into port. well, there are some port duties, but that is not where the tariffs get paid. the tariffs get paid when those products are consumed. when they are bought at the store. so, is tariffs have any influence on inflation?

yeah, absolutely. it will raise the cost of those goods. it's really that simple. host: robert, republican senator rick scott of florida was on cnbc and talked about efforts of the trump administration and republican-controlled congress will work on together to reduce inflation. [video clip] >> the american public knows that inflation is tied to wasteful government spending. there are so many people engaged in this now around the country who say, $36 trillion of debt is too much. to trillion dollar deficits are too much -- to trillion dollar deficits are too much. i'm very excited that we will be able to figure a lot of things out. i've been having a lot of meetings with house members to come up with ways to reduce the waste in government spending. host: another 15 minutes to talk about inflation, your confidence

level in president-elect trump once he assumes office in bringing that down. this is james in coopersburg, finn sylvania. republican -- coopersburg, pennsylvania. republican. caller: have a comment and a question or the comment is i have complete confidence in president-elect trump and the cabinet he picked. i think he will take his time with this and not make the same mistakes that were possibly made in the first administration. my question is, the previous color about not trusting the media, last week i tuned into c-span for the hearing with the acting director, watching live, and you guys cut to the end of the hearing and censored out something. host: if it was live, how did we cut to the end? caller: that is what i am trying to find out. the texas rep pressed the acting

director ronald rowe and got heated. that was cut out. i went from the beginning to the end of the hearing. host: that is not possible when it is live. caller: i was watching it live at 11:30 a.m. on december 5. host: we will look into that for you. it is on our website, c-span.org . james, you can watch the full hearing on c-span.org in our archives, but thank you for bringing that to our attention. falls church, democrat, good morning. caller: the morning, mimi. can you hear me? host: i can. caller: all right, sweetheart. i want to thank c-span for all they tried to do by mentioning to the american people what is going on with this government. i have absolutely no confidence in a convicted felon for fraud,

like the other gentleman said a few moments ago. i am amazed that as many americans would call and give confidence to somebody who is charged with sexual assault. we heard his phone call where he stated he would like to grab women in their private parts. we heard him on the phone with the person in georgia asking them to cheat for him. no confidence at all in a man like that. he's got no morals. he has disgraced this country. the people in europe and around the world are saying, what is going on? my sister is in england. she said that the people in england are amazed that the american people would put that gentleman -- i call him a gentleman out of respect -- to put him back in the white house when he was a disaster.

and one million americans died while he was there and nobody said anything about it. it's crazy. mimi, i stopped listening to c-span because i couldn't take it anymore, but i'm glad that you guys are there and i'm glad that i'm back on listening to you again. i appreciate c-span. host: all right, oliver. crag in cleveland, ohio, republican. caller: how are you doing? i love listening to the liberal democrats crying about their little president got ousted by trump. make america great again. america first. start deporting. bye-bye. host: here is jean in virginia, independent line. caller: hello, america. how is my audio? am i good? good morning, america. i want everyone to pause. we really have to get past that.

the election is over, he got elected, all right. some things -- i voted democrat. i voted for kamala. i am an american. retired army, retired military, i did 20 years. i am an american, what is best for the american people, for america. i say, keep all those promises you said you were going to do, which is why he got elected. do not start backpedaling. oh, you know what, maybe daca -- no, no, no. everything you said you were going to do, do. those who voted in support of him are going to have to see for themselves. that's the only way. i want to thank c-span for allowing us an opportunity to talk. free speech, we still have that in america. everything that you said you are going to do, deportation, getting the military to deport

these people, hold up to everything you said. don't backpedal. do not backpedal. the only way the people are going to see -- i used to to watch the apprentice. you're fired. when you're talking about six times bankruptcy and you're talking what running this country, look at atlantic city. i always refer to atlantic city. the last thing that i have to say is our judicial system. if you can have 34 felonies and hold the highest office in the land and our free country, then i think that we really need to look at our judicial system now with how we prosecute people and punish people, particularly in the military. if you're going to be the commander-in-chief how can you discharge, court-martial, demote lee terry members charged with sexual harassment? host: got it. let's talk to roy in woodstock, georgia, republican. caller: you know, we are talking

about tariffs. i was telling people when i was in germany to buy an american-made car you had to pay three times the amount that we pay. an american-made car, chevrolet. i could buy three italian-made sports cars for the price of that one american car. we are talking about a price increase because of tariffs? rice increases are good. -- price increases are good. when biden went to work on the energy sector, truckers have to buy fuel. farm people have to buy fuel. the price went up. these tariffs would just equalize the playing field. now, we are at a disadvantage. the goods that are supposed to be made in the united states, people are buying them from china. go to walmart. everything is made in china. we need to start making goods back here in this country. tariff is one way to do that.

we need to level the playing field with the rest of the world. host: some callers were saying he is not going to do the tariffs. that is just a bargaining chip. you would welcome those tariffs? caller: because i trust him. i trust him to make the right decision. let's say for aluminum and steel. our industry was going under until he raised the tariff to give american aluminum and steel a chance to come back. pan is trying to buy our steel mill. we need to be able to produce certain goods for our survival. i think he would do that. host: here is scott in new york, democrat. caller: good morning, yes. host: good morning. go right ahead. scott? talk into the phone. don't look at the tv.

caller: thank you for taking my call. i have one quick comment. maga has put -- in the driver seat. everybody better buckle up. host: tony in alabama, independent line. caller: hello. i am toni from alabama. thank you for allowing me to speak on your show. i cannot vote, but i have friends and family affected by terrorists. in 1955 come the same thing. the playbook was played out and it was part of the great depression. what i don't understand is, no one is asking the real questions. what is he going to do about the people he is cutting off of social security in nursing homes who will lose their place to live? i really want to know. host: this is tommy in arkansas, republican.

hi, tommy. caller: yes. you are talking about inflation here. i've listened to 15 or 20 of the people who called. they've added nothing to inflation to help. the thing is, they are causing more problems with the country getting along with each other than anything i've ever heard. those people don't even need to be allowed to talk. inflation, i don't know what we are going to do exactly to help it, but i do know that it needs help. i'm for trump making a good try at it if that's possible. thank you. host: robert in lynchburg, virginia. caller: good morning, mimi. how are you doing? i am an 81-year-old african-american. i looked at what is happening to

our country right now. i think we got the best government that money can buy with the billionaires that trump is putting in his cabinet. i've never seen anything like this in my life. if you believe what trump is saying, i have an ocean to sell you in alaska. host: stephen in concorde, california, democrat. caller: yes, thank you for taking my call. i believe trump is a danger to the whole country, because he is putting billionaires in the office of cabinet. the people he chose for the fbi and defense department and national security are not qualified. if the republicans don't do their job of kicking him out and not confirming them, they will have ruined the country. it is a matter of national

security. trump is trying to make our country not work, and it is absolutely terrible. there are so many problems in this country, resolving the burning of fossil fuels, all of the different -- i can't hear you. are you talking to me? host: no, i'm not. keep going. caller: i'd ended all of the good things he could -- bide n did all the good things he could. we have to defend ukrainians. i have -- i am an uncle to a man who married a ukrainian woman. we have to defend ukraine because they are fighting for their freedom. like everything in the middle east is happening, syria is finally falling because russia could not help the syrians. these things are happening simultaneously because people are still fighting for their rights around the world. i believe -- i'm looking at the

tv and it is not on, so i'm listening to what i am saying, and i hope they realize that we had a pandemic that just happened and the lines of communication have all shut down, and that affected the transportation costs of food. eventually, that will be solved. we have big problems in this country. people come here because we have so much freedom, but the freedom is responsibility. you have to believe in this country and vote. 10 million people who voted last time didn't vote because we had a democratic candidate, and woman chosen, and people don't believe a woman should be president. that's the sad truth. i don't know what to say except people have to believe in our country, strong leaders in the democratic party, and we have to believe in the process of republicans coming to their senses and revealing that donald trump as a man cannot be trusted, cannot be trusted at all to put us in the right place. host: i wanted to update you on the caller asked about the

secret service hearing, and things on december 5. it is here in its entirety on our website. the final meeting of task force on trump assassination attempt. you can see there. the part that the caller was talking about where things got heated between two sides is labeled as a point of interest. it's here. if you look on the side it says heated exchange between representative fallon and uss acting director rowe. you can go straight to that point if you would like to see that. i hope that the caller is still with us so that he can take a look at that. walter, penrose, colorado. caller: you had a caller earlier from minneapolis. a lot of the dems definitely need education on that. i am not rich, but i go to the ballot box vote to keep the rich

in power. i hope she understands that. i guess she thinks that it is ok for americans not to be able to sell things abroad because of tariffs, but everything that we try to sell over there is a 20% to 30% markup. that's ok'd to a lot of people in this country. once the gas prices go and stay low, slowly but surely the profit that the companies derive from this, the prices will go down. host: david, independent line, good morning. caller: how are you? host: good. caller: let's go back to inflation specifically. the only way to tackle inflation in my opinion is to reduce government spending which created it, and actually give more money back to the taxpayers. in addition, also, reducing the

cost promotion of the cities -- the cost of most of the cities from the illegal aliens taking up hundreds of millions of dollars in tax breaks. those are the only things that would be effective in my opinion . host: next on washington journal, the rand corporation senior policy researcher daniel gerstein discusses the mysterious drone sightings in new jersey and new york and the security threats posed by unmanned aerial systems. later, robin mayor -- robin m aher discussing calls for president biden to commute federal death sentences before president-elect donald trump assumes office. we will be right back. ♪ >> american history tv, exploring the people and events

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today. together, we can ensure that c-span remains a trusted resource for you and future generations. >> washington journal continues. host: welcome back to washington journal. we are joined by daniel gerstein, the senior policy researcher at the rand corporation. he was the former acting dhs undersecretary and deputy undersecretary of science and technology between 2011-2014. dan, welcome to the program. in talking about these drones, i wanted to do a quick update and ask you about it. first, if you could tell us about your background and national security and your experience with drones specifically? guest: great. i started out my professional career in the army after graduating from the united states military academy. i spent 30 years in uniform deployed around the world, large

units, including a brigade. i've done a number of high-level jobs, a speechwriter for the head strategist to the chairman of joint chiefs. i also had an opportunity to work as a senior civilian, where i did counter weapons of mass destruction. i thought a lot about drones in counter weapons of mass destruction based on the potential for biological and chemical attacks and such. i've been asked to go to homeland security, where i was the acting undersecretary and deputy undersecretary. since being at rand, i've had a number of opportunities to look at drone technologies.my most recent report , which i think is interesting to those who read it, i was asked to look at what would happen if we had swarm technologies associated with homeland security.

that would be bad actors trying to attack the homeland and not using a single drone but using multiple drones coordinated using artificial intelligence capabilities. host: sorry, explain the swarm technology. it would be multiple drones. how many drones? how large are the drones we are talking about? why is that specifically more challenging than one drone? guest: it's interesting. you are asking the right question. darpa, which i know everyone has heard of, the navy and the army are looking at swarm technologies. some of them are as large as 600,000 members of the drone swarm. those would obviously be much smaller. think of them almost as expendable.

what makes them intelligent swarms is they are given a command and execute that command. they follow -- they have artificial intelligence within them, so they are able to change their flight path midflight to avoid being shot down. they communicate with each other. they plan their flight paths as they are flying to targets. so, it is a whole new dynamic. it isn't just a single drone by a single operator. those have proven pretty easy to shoot down, quite frankly. we just had an attack in ukraine by the russian forces, in which they used about 100 missiles and about 200 unmanned aerial systems, uas's, or drones. most of the drones that were shot down effectively -- most of the drones were shot down effectively. we are seeing the nature of the use of drones in warfare is

changing as well. host: i want to go back to the situation happening over the skies of new jersey and new york. this is the usa today. the white house says new jersey drones not from foreign countries as lawmakers demand answers. dan, i will read you the joint statement between homeland security and the fbi about that specifically and then have you comment on it. they said, we have no evidence at this time that the reported drone sightin pose a safety threat or have a fou annexes. the fbi, dhs, federaltner and close coronation with new jersey state police continue to deploy personnel technology confirm whether the reported and drone sightings arel drone, manned aircraft, o otherwise inaccurate sightings. uponw of available

imagery, it appears many ported sightings are manned aircraft operatinglly. there are no reported or confirmed drone sightings in any restricted airspace. a few things there. they said they are deploying personnel and technology. first, can you talk about what technology is there to understand what these drones are, if they are drones in fact, and where they are coming from and who is operating them? guest: another great question. the drone technology is emerging rapidly. we have been worried about this threat -- i was in government a decade ago when we were starting to really think about the drone threat, because it was becoming more real. the drones were becoming more effective. we talk about these countermeasures, there are a number of different approaches that one has to take with drones. first, you have to be able to detect them. if you are flying a drone in the

united states, you are supposed to have it with a transponder so it is squawking a frequency and you are able to get the identification of the drone. that would help to do the second thing, which is to identify. ththd is to mitigate the threat. that requires good equipment, as wells rules of engagement that allow you to do so in a safe and effective manner. there is a lot that goes into it. you can imagine how much training you would need to have. the department of defense, they hold an annual conference. at the last one in october, the ausa conference, association of the united states army, when i went to that conference i couldn't believe every single platform, tank, artillery piece, armored fighting vehicle, everyone had a counter drone system. that is how much it has become a

fixture in the thinking of the military forces. we have a real problem when we think about here in homeland, because there are so many lucrative targets. all of this critical infrastructure we have, pipelines, electrical grids, transportation networks, hospitals, chemical facilities. all of those, we have to figure out, what is the priority and how are we going to protect them? you can imagine how expensive that is going to be. host: sorry to interrupt, but i want to ask about counter drone and how to take one down. thehill.com has this headline, trump calls for mistreat drones to be shot down. the question that many members of the public are saying is why can't the dod shoot them down? guest: interesting. in the homeland, we are not at war. we have civilian people walking

the streets. they have an expectation of safety and privacy, so there are different rules that govern this. how do we take down a drone? if you have the electronic countermeasures, you can actually take control of the drone when it is in flight and cause it to land harmlessly. that way it is not going to fall out of the sky. there are opportunities or times when -- let's say we thought that there was a drone over a stadium and we were concerned. we could see that it was loaded with a large payload and we thought it was explosives. you might say, we have to bring it down another way. we are looking at things like lasers. we are looking at shooting it out of the sky. i would say that that is your

approach of last resort because of the damage it could do if it hits people. you would almost certainly have casualties and likely deaths if it was a larger-type of drone. there are ways and approaches, but we have to be measured in doing this so as to not cause more casualties. host: if you have a question for daniel gerstein of the rand corporation about drones and the security threats that they may pose, you can start calling now. the lines original. in the eastern or central time zones, (202) 748-8000. in the mountain or pacific time zones, you can call on (202) 748-8001. you can also send a text at (202) 748-8003. dan, the drones are obviously remote-controlled by drone pilots. what are the licensing or

certification requirements for somebody to operate a drone? guest: in our country, the faa, the federal aviation administration has the responsibility for putting out the regulations. what is complex about this is depending on what type of user you are you have different requirements. you might have small drones. some are less than half a pound. they are very much hobbyists. they don't have great distance and such. all of them are supposed to have some degree of licensing associated with them. there are also those that may not have been licensed when they were bought early on because the faa rules have changed. you get all the way up into, if you are flying this in a commercial approach, using it for delivering packages or

whatever it is, there would be different requirements for those types of drone operators. we talk about the military use of drones, those drone operators often are flying much larger systems, and they have very stringent requirements because of the nature of the work they are doing. it's not a one-size fits all approach to requiring licenses. someone as young as 16 according to faa regulations can get a drone license to be able to fly. those are not commercial, at that point. that would be the hobbyist type. they would be able to do that. they would also have to pass a test. they would have to ensure they follow the safety rules. again, no free lunch here.

there are requirements they would have to meet. host: back to the threat to military installations, the compromised version of the fiscal 2025 ndaa, national defense authorization act, includes a provision that says, the department of defense has to create a counter drone strategy. dan, is there no counter drone strategy currently for the defense department? that one needs to be created? guest: i have not seen a counter drone strategy. host: we have been dealing with drones for a long time, dan. how is this not already strategy? guest: i think that we have policies, but they are not as copperheads of as a strategy. for example, the department of defense over the last 2-3 years has been working on something called the replicator program. at its core, the replicator

program is trying to bring smaller but also medium-sized drones that can be used very effectively on the battlefield. think of them as one-way trips. they are not intended to come back. they are intended to be used as munitions, to attack, things like that. it is trying to get more drones into the force, recognizing that even though they seem like tactical weapons they have strategic effects when you look at what happened in ukraine. host: tell us a little more about what is happening in ukraine and what we have learned about how drones are deployed in war as a result of that were in ukraine. guest: a couple of things. i would start by saying that we may hve -- may have seen the death of large drones. i say that because it turns out that large drones that fly at relatively slow speeds, certainly under 100 miles an

hour, are very vulnerable to air defenses. what you are seeing is more using smaller drones with very capable missnackages going after targets effectively. we have also seen how, for example, ukraine, which doesn't even have a real navy, was able to essentially destroy about 50% of the russian black sea fleet and cause the other 50% to have to leave that region because otherwise they would have been destroyed as well. here you have a country with no navy that has destroyed obviously a country with a very large navy. that i think is very interesting. the idea of not just aerial drones, but in ukraine they used naval drones very effectively. i think that is something else we are seeing. there is a reason why these

kinds of autonomous systems, unmanned systems, can be very useful. host: a lot of people want to talk to you. let me start with bill in brooklyn, new york. phil you are on with dan gerstein. caller: good morning. i understand what you are saying about shooting those drones down, and debris falling down and hurting pedestrians, but these drones could be spreading some type of chemical or germ warfare into the air and water. maybe a few casualties from falling debris, but within two to three weeks people getting sick from chemicals sprayed from these drones. thank you. guest: i agree. this is based on a risk assessment. you have to think about, what are the options and come up with the least risky option. if you have reason to believe

that, for example, a stadium was about to be attacked with a chemical weapon deployed from a drone, then i think we would have to look at whether or not it was worth taking that risk. i don't want to speak for operational commanders and law enforcement, but i could see them saying we have to get that out of the sky. that would cause that sort of engagement. host: jeremy in madison, wisconsin. caller: thank you for c-span. thank you very much. thank you for your clarity and clear use of language. a couple of things. i am never going to forget when i was talking to my logix professor more than two decades ago, about him counting cars in vegas, area 51.

how to identify an unidentified flying object. unidentified flying object has been identified. in madison, i am so appreciative of how you're talking about you can use technology to land such a thing very harmlessly and safely. sometimes in madison above the capital we see the weirdest things about that airspace, just right above it. simple things like that. i wouldn't take that necessarily as a form of a threat. i see countless planes or small drones right above our capital. maybe if i see it, i am looking at pedestrians or people at the capital and i'm looking right above me, and at some point if technology can just land such a thing harmlessly, why would we

create hyperbole here? i appreciate your clarity. host: ok, jeremy. guest: i don't think there is a one-size-fits-all. i will say, the amount of time i've gotten government, range of military operations, from combat to counter to peace operations to homeland security, i think about all the risks. when i see things flying about places where i have a question about, should there be a no-fly zone, i get very concerned. for the average person, it may not seem this way, but there is a whole group of organizations and people that respond when for something like the super bowl there are specialized rules put in place, and specialized ways in which we protect those kinds of events.

it is all based on risk. you cannot defend everything, we know that. what we are trying to do is identify those things that are most at risk. if there is a warning, if we have some intelligence that says a particular facility is at risk, we will certainly turn towards it. as an aside on the drones, we used to say in the military, first reports are always wrong. now, we have heard a lot about drones, and all the sudden we are finding that a lot of these may actually be small, manned aircraft. i don't grieve done a very good job in talking to the american people, to the state and local representatives about what we know about this, what is known about this. i think clarity for that group is also very important. host: aside from lack of communication, how do you think

the federal, state, and local officials have been handling the situation over new york and new jersey? guest: i think there is a lot of room for improvement. what i would say is, i attended a hearing that occurred. it was a house hearing on drones. the state representatives were grilling the federal authorities. one from the department of justice, one from the fbi, one from customs and border protection. there was clear recognition that the state and local really need help. they need help with equipment. they need help with intelligence and knowledge about these threats. and they understand that they need training. there is a lot of work to be done in the space. i don't think -- to take this back to how did we do in new jersey and around the country

where we have had these potential drone sightings, i don't think we have had the clarity in our discussions we needed to have. that created more ambiguity and fear among the people. host: that hearing that you referenced in the house is on our website in its entirety at c-span.org if anyone would like to take a look at that. johnny in dearborn, michigan. you are on with dan gerstein. caller: hello. i seen online that people say maybe it is government agency or something, and looking for like a sensitive item that might be loose out there. like a rogue chemical weapon or something of that nature. what do you think? guest: you're asking me to speculate. having served ohio in the government, i would say at this point, i don't think the government would be very

interested in perpetrating such a ruse. this has become a very emotional subject for many who are watching what they think are drones nightly. i don't necessarily see that. host: let's talk to dale in ohio. caller: how are you this morning? host: good. guest: fine, thank you. caller: as far as the drones being able to fly all over, i know in ohio, i'm not sure about the whole country, but to fly a remote control plane, helicopter, you actually have to be licensed and be a member of the group to fly that aircraft out of an area. you can't just fly it in your backyard. they need to apply something like that to the drones would be simple in my opinion.

the other part about the drones being spotted on the east coast, they say it's not the government, they say it's not the police officers, so in my opinion you either got local people doing it and they are kind of doing it as a joke now because they are getting so much publicity about it or it is a bad actor. as far as aircraft, they are saying that the aircraft can go around the local airports. it makes you wonder why they can't come up with a conclusion on what it is. that's all i have to say, thank you. guest: i addressed this partially in my opening remarks, but i would say that these operators are required to be licensed. faa requires that, even for the smaller ones. you're supposed to register, you are supposed to take courses. i think they would agree with you.

i'm not saying that everyone always does that. i forgot, what was the second one? host: if they were manned aircraft, wouldn't a the faa or airports have a record of that? guest: they would. all of those aircraft must have transponders. the size of that aircraft would require them. that is knowable. you are starting to see that as they are unpacking this they are realizing that there are flying in these air spaces and are being confused for large drones. when i say large, with the reports are saying is that the drones are the equivalent of a small car. i think about six feet, or something like that. it could easily be a drone. it would not weigh as much as a small car. it could be a small plane being misidentified. host: judy in phoenix, arizona. caller: i know, the thought

occurred to me when these drones first started, were first put out on the market and stuff, private citizens could all, this will be kinda fun, let's play with this. the first thought occurred to me is, i don't think that's a good idea for private citizens to have this as a toy to play with. so, i wish the government would put a ban on any private citizens being able to get their hands on those objects, so that at some point maybe down the road once they are pretty much weeded out of private hands, that if this situation comes up again, and it's got to be some kind of government or something nefarious or something. i don't think private citizens

should be able to operate these drones. host: all right, judy. what you think about drones being banned for personal use? guest: i think the nature of technology is that all technology is dual use and at some point have been used for purposes other than what they have in intended and in some cases in dangerous manners. if i were to say, judy, what you think about commercial applications? such as the use of drone technology to do relief operations after a disaster? here you would have state and local governments, you might have private citizens, you know, what if we were to say scientific research? we are looking at putting drones into hurricanes so that as they are coming we would be able to get a real-time sensing. not just flying the hurricane hunters in for a period of time

and then they leave, but being able to trackwhat about when tha occurred in west africa? they were using drone technology run by civilians to take samples that were taken from people who they suspected of having ebola and flying it 15 minutes to a local hospital. if they had driven it would have taken 10 hours. think about the good that comes out of the use of these technologies, the drone technologies, but also the other technologies where we have seen misuses. there are real reasons why having these technologies can benefit society. it is how they are used, not the technology itself that is inherently good or bad. we have to be cognizant of that and be cautious about that. host: i want to show you the

proposed legislation and get your comments. this is the counter security safety and reauthorizing act out of the house. it would have these pons. protect airports, chemical facilities and higher risk pr transports. low state and local law enforcement to use federally approved counter drone technology. permit critical tructure operators to deploy vetted drone detection capabilities to safeguard their facilities. what do you think of those? guest: i think that legislation is not necessarily all new. it's about a reauthorization. it is already in place. they want to both reauthorize it, allow it to continue to operate, and they want to expand it some. they want to help out the state and local authorities. this isn't this brand-new

revelation, but rather continuing to try to push down understandings and polyphony it -- proliferate it to others. if you listen to the representatives at the testimony, that is what they were calling for. they asked for help and they are looking for the federal government to assist and not take over anything. really help them with this training, identification and every thing else in between. while at rand we are not supposed to comment on legislation, from what i've heard and looking at how they reacted, it seems appropriate. host: darlene in florida, good morning. caller: my -- i have a question and comment. it appears these drones are fairly large.

why d't these companies, if they are owned by companies, why don't they just notify the government whether it be the mayor of the town or the governor or even washington? let them know it is us and we are flying around. i don't understand why they don't just notify. that's all. host: who? the owner of the drone? the operator of the drone, the pilot? caller: yes. it seems like the drones are really large. i wouldn't say i'm sure but probably that might be by a company that has it. maybe they are doing experiments. just notify and that would take away a lot of the fear and questions. host: dan?

guest: if they are that large, they have to have transponders. that would be required by law. it appears that what we are hearing is a lot of these are actually manned aircraft that are legitimately flying around and being misidentified as drones. there may be drones that are out there. they have not really talked. the reports i have seen have not really talked about whether or not they are getting hit off of transponders. that would be the electronic signature. this is where first reports are always wrong. it is not clear what is happening. we don't have enough information being put out on it that says these are the numbers of legitimate manned aircraft. these are the ones that are drones and unmanned systems. host: eddie in illinois.

good morning. caller: good morning. my question is, technology is amazing and these unmanned p s anes and drones, are they the same or different? my real question is to mr. dan iel, if this is within his expertise, how did those balloons come over to the united states on the west coast and get so far into the interior of the united states? that is my question. host: the chinese spy balloons. guest: again, with the chinese balloons, they had their story and said it was a weather

balloon and such. we had our feeling about what we were seeing. these balloons are difficult to track as they fly across international spaces. this occurs more frequently than one would think. it doesn't always look like it did when that was occurring. that looked like it was almost going along a planned route. it hit a number of what i would say -- interesting areas if he had an intelligent question. -- you had an intelligent question. you don't want to shoot things down. we were -- the united states was interested in understanding what the balloon was doing. we did not want to shoot it down and unpredictably have it landed

and perhaps our people or destroy property. that was the calculus that was made. there was a lot of heat about some of the decisions associated with that. host: claude in portland, oregon. you are next. caller: i was wondering -- i'm not too familiar with the new jersey drones but when they have the ufos over phoenix. i'm wondering why local tv stations don't send their helicopters to try to track it down, do some investigating. guest: well, knowing a little about some of these issues associated with these unidentified flying objects -- they have now changed the name. what has happened is a lot of the claims that have been made

-- a lot have been military pilots too. they have seen anomalous behaviors by aircraft. they are unable to identify the aircraft. some are moving so rapidly they literally look like they are moving from one side of the cockpit to the other side in a snap of a finger. what you are really seeing is a lot of those have turned out to be explained anomalies. they have been able to say that had to do with some sort of, you know, i will call it a visual aura that may have occurred and cockpits in such. i know the pilot believe something happened. we are still sorting through some of that. of the 200 or so they were

working on, there were still some that remained anomalous and could not explain. others they thought they had explained away. host: jerry in broadway, virginia. good morning. caller: good morning. look, these drums have been flying over military bases -- drones have been flying over military bases. if an aircraft invades their space and does not have a transponder or does not respond to radio communications. , they not only have the authority but a responsibility to send the airplanes up or helicopters up and find out what that is and take it down if necessary. as far as the government saying -- i know what these are. we have satellites of there they can read my name on my mailbox. they tell us they do not know what these are?

that's baloney. what do you say about that? guest: to your first point about being able to go up and shoot them down, let me say some of this seems counter but in the hearing the other day they talked about 20,000 encounters across the southern border of unmanned aerial systems. the congressman asked a question if they were 20,000, why were only 68 brought down? the answer was because most of the rest of them were on mexican territory. according to international law, you are not allowed to shoot into another nation's territory or even use frequencies, radio frequencies to bring it down or to engage it without approval from the host nation you would

be working with her having to work with. it sounds like -- what you're saying sounds reasonable but there are 70 jurisdictional issues. -- so many jurisdictional issues. even for federal posts in the united states. those federal posts live within communities, local authorities have some degree of control. states have states rights. you have to work through all those questions. i think what you are seeing -- there's a lot of uncertainty and not a lot of what i would like to see is clear speaking on the issue. we are coming to terms with there are some unmanned aerial systems out there. there are also a lot of these smaller manned aircraft. we need to do a better job communicating this. it has caused a lot of emotion and concern and angst within the

communities, within the states where this has occurred. i'm definitely concerned about it. one footnote. there have been unexplained drone activities in the united kingdom flying over three or four of our bases out there. lincoln heath, mendenhall, fareford. there's concerned about that. those happened in november 23 through 26th of this year. there are concerns about people using drones and using them for surveillance and intelligence purposes. host: jerry in sewall, new jersey. caller: good morning. the one concern i have and i still don't get why we can't ban all drones until we know exactly what is going on here. i will tell you something.

i'm a registered democrat. my concern is i think the government is going to be exposed in the next four years. the government, the fbi. i think they know they will be exposed for a lot of what they have been doing. i think i'm worried about them. they are flying these things over trump's bedminster home. my concern is they are -- whatever they are doing to take our president out. there's been an attempted assassination twice. i don't trust these things. i don't trust the government. because they are not telling us anything i trust him even less. why are we not banning these things until we get to the bottom of everything? i'm talking about what is exposed with the fbi and all. you can see it coming. something is going on.

yeah. we need to ban them. i don't think there is any question about that and get this straightened out and then they will be allowed to go back up. of course, with restrictions. thank you. host: drones flying over or near president-elect trump's properties, wouldn't that be a secret service concern? guest: it would indeed. secret service -- when i was in government the ashley had a counter drone program -- they actually had a counter-drone program. they think about a lot. they have to protect every president and all high-value potential targets. i expect they will continue to do that. they are a very professional organization. host: this is tye in south carolina. caller: good morning.

this is the military-industrial complex. i wanted to explain it this way. if you look at all this stuff america ends up creating, you get other countries to create something to combat it. for example, we started this missile-defense. trillions of dollars into building it. then it caused other countries to go with hypersonic missiles to outwit it. we wasted all that money. with drones, we started with the drones. look at ukraine now. afghanistan. now they are everywhere. now they are a threat to america itself. you have all these people from other countries met at the u.s. anybody can put some chemical weapons on a drone and let it come down.

we created this problem. the military-industrial complex. they are all these weapons that always end up back on us. we suffer for it. it's all because of money. host: let's get an answer. guest: i will go back to something i said before. there are a lot of legitimate purposes and a lot of good outcomes from having drone technology. we need to think about those and how we can put in place limitations and guard reels ticket -- guard rails to ensure this scenario does not occur. that is where the focus needs to be. those limits need to be figured out. the federal aviation administration, the faa needs to have a serious role in this as too federal, state, local law enforcement need to weigh in and make sure we are doing things

that are appropriate. at the end of the day, all technologies are dual use. every technology has at some point been misused. it is really about the use case. host: daniel gerstein, rand corporation senior policy researcher. you can find his work at rand.org. thank you for joining us. still ahead, robin maher, executive director of the death penalty information center discusses calls for president biden to commute federal death sentences before president-elect donald trump assumes office. first, open forum. you can start calling now. here are the lines. republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. we will be right back. ♪ >> book tv every sunday on c-span2 features leading authors

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tradition, individual relationships, lofty debates and long-winded speeches. you can see all those "long-winded speeches" at c-span.org, along with all of our other archives, hearings and debates. james, you are on open forum in rome, georgia. independent line. caller: what i would like to talk about is the history of the united states. we can bring this back to what is going on. people don't want socialism and all that. those people coming from cuba, germany, russia, you know they bring? tom is him and fascism. -- communism and fascism. like people, we suffered. they talk about deportation. they voted for it. the hispanic men voted for this. leave robert f. kennedy alone.

we need to find out what's going on with the scientists and black people in the experiment's they have been making on them. he should have gotten rid of -- i call and asked them to do that so they can find out what was actually going on. now he runs like a coward. look, immigrants. stop talking about socialism. black people, we have been in slavery. jim crow, racism, discrimination. we could not even go on certain streets or businesses. cuba, rubio, you keep your racism and socialism in cuba. host: kathleen in satellite beach, florida. democrat. caller: i was calling about the senate and the process of choosing the secretaries. host: the confirmation hearings. caller: i heard elon musk was

going to pay $1 million out for every person that tried to confirm. if any of the senators voted against the confirmation he will use that $1 million to primary them in the next election. what i was hoping the senate does is as a group, all 100 of them pledge together to confirm or not confirm these people. a lot of them are just unfit for office. that way musk cannot go after an individual senator when it is time for reelection. i just hope the senate really gets strong, works together. they are our last hope to stop some of these horrible people that trump is trying to confirm. host: kathleen, here's an article about what you were talking about from fortune magazine. elon musk warns republicans

standing in trump's way that he will find primary challenges to them -- fund primary challenges to them. musk said his political action committee would play a significant role in primaries. it says the billionaire responded to reports he might find challengers -- fund challengers who do not support trump's nominees. "there is no other way," musk wrote on x. this is kathy. waynesboro, georgia. republican line. caller: i want to respond to that first caller -- the caller and the first hour on the hollywood access tape about president trump, what he said. he said they would "let you." he did not say the woman -- he did not say he would do it.

he said they would quote -- "let you." on him being a "34 felling criminal and sexual assault person," those trials were scams. he is not a 34 counts criminal and sexual assault person. he denied all of that. he denied that. i watched that blinken hearing on c-span. i saw the same thing the other guy saw. his was a different hearing. the republicans would get cut out. the tape would pause. host: i just want to say that

might be an issue with your cable, with your tv. you can always go back online at c-span.org and look at the hearing. it is the full hearing online for you and the point of interest that you can find certain points very easily so you do not have to go to the whole thing if you don't want to. mike in illinois, independent line. caller: tomorrow being the anniversary of ratifying the bill of rights, maybe we can not do the intelligent agents talking point each segment of washington journal for the next 10 days, but a segment that would spice it up. as in, being deceived with these drones for new legislation to

police [indiscernible] all the different stuff now. when hunter was given a pass a couple of days ago, we see the assassination of a bigwig. now everybody wants to police the bigwigs. could this be ostate? if we spice up these segments to christmas, could we do a segment about our government buildings being sold? the post office is being sold? who owns it? who bought them? host: i don't know what you mean by spice up the segments. i think they are already spicy. i'm glad you brought of the bill of rights. that is tomorrow, the anniversary. we are having a segment on that for bill of rights day tomorrow. make sure you watch that. lori in hamburg, pennsylvania.

democrat. caller: i would like to let democrats know not to back down. stand up and try to broaden our coalition. we are stuck in this 50-50. that is why we have such a populist movement and why trump has taken great advantage of that. host: let me ask you. what do you think -- who else would you include in the coalition? how would you expand the coalition? caller: by talking to each other. with the drones, with immigration, we need representatives working on these issues that affect us. people are panicking over these drones. a lot of -- even democrats i heard yelling about it because they have to act like that now or they will be accused of not caring about these things in the air. we need our representatives to work on our challenges.

both parties have broken down. i think this is the longest period we have had a 50-50 split in our country. it is not good for us. people not believing in their government, they are panicking. i am not worried about the drones. if there was something dangerous going on, my government would let me know. they would let me know. we have had -- been safe since 9/11. apparently the fbi institutions are doing their jobs. it is for a long time now there has been primarying primary. there are score -- primarying. they have these scorecards. they can primary people in.

it is a populist -- i'm worried about getting a fair tax policy. having representatives that are paying attention to what i need and what my concerns are. housing. there are so many homeless people in america right now. it is not because they are lazy or on drugs. they work full-time jobs. it is because the rent has skyrocketed. host: you mentioned the drones. i wouldn't to update people from the associated press. what do we know about the mysterious drones flying over new jersey? a large number of mysterious drones have been reported flying over parts of new jersey in recent weeks, sparking speculation and concern over who sent them and why. governor phil murphy, law enforcement officials stressed that drones don't appear to be a threat to public safety. many state and municipal lawmakers have nonetheless call

for stricter rules about who can fly the unmanned aircraft. it says dozens of witnesses reported seeing drones in new jersey starting in november. at first the drones were spotted flying along the scenic waterway. it says soon sightings were reported statewide, including near the arsenal, a manufacturing facility in over donald trump's golf course in bedminster. the aircraft have also recently been spotted in coastal areas. representative chris smith says a coast guard commanding officer told him a dozen drones closely followed a coast guard lifeboat in ocean city over the weekend. you can read the rest of the article at apnews.com.

gordon, kansas city, kansas. republican. caller: thank you for taking my call. i wanted to talk to the guy from the rand corporation. in 2008, when i was working as a carpenter, they hired me and five other carpenters. we went -- it was a secret thai place you had to -- type place where you had to be walked around with a guard. they took us to a room. we straightened that room -- sat in that room for a week and did nothing. then they laid us off that weekend. they told us to hunker down. they were going to find us something to do. the rand company -- the guy called about the military-industrial complex. that is the military-industrial

complex. they are the one that charged seven dollars for a toilet seat or whatever. the rand corporation has probably billions of dollars worth of contracts with our government. as far as the drones, i would not doubt the fbi and dhs don't know what it is. they are stupid and they don't have anybody coming to work. thank you. host: james in california, independent line. caller: i would like to address the first caller from georgia. i'm a black man so it is understood. i get tired of these black people that are calling up about slavery and jim crow. it is not a problem of today. i don't understand. what is the purpose of slavery, jim crowism? black people, the problems of today are not the problems of

yesterday and 200 years ago. that is why in many ways we are so far behind. we are focused on the wrong issues. look at this ai. look at musk and his friend. the job changes, the education. it just gets to me that they are so hung up. so many black people are hung up on this slavery issue. thank you. host: to update you on some news from axios. former speaker of the house nancy pelosi has been hospitalized. she sustained an injury to her hip and was hospitalized during a visit to luxembourg. that was as a result of a fall. john in brooklyn, new york. democrat. caller: how are you? i want to make three points.

i want to let everybody know -- how could it be such a close election? no recall. there is no harm in recalling an election where he won by 1.5 points. that is one of my points. the next one is don't worry about trump and that crazy stuff he is talking with people that don't know what they are doing. we have an answer. we can cut him off in the mid-election. focus on what he's doing. work for the mid-election. then we can cut him off. don't worry. let them put these people and they don't know what they are talking about. we will get them in the mid-election. number three. with these -- the guy that said about slavery and still worried

about it, slavery is still in effect in america but it's in a different way. it is in a more hidden state. we still have lots of slavery in africa. the caller that talked about slavery, we still have slavery going on with blacks. we don't get -- the bank's redline us. they judge us by color before they know who we are. host: all right, john. erin in maryland, independent line. caller: thanks for taking my call. i would like to snap the lady out of her suspension of disbelief when she talked about donald trump saying they let me. it is a comedic device that allows the listener to suspend logic and common sense.

she was telling the story of the incorrect order. donald trump actually said, i see a beautiful woman. i grabbed her by the hair. i drag her into my cave. i have my way with her and she loves it. that is not a real thing. as far as the drones go, drones -- i think america has been hyper sensitized to drones because they have been around 175 years. mostly in war. we have drones blowing up weddings and buildings with one person in them. cars just driving around. now when the drones are in the white neighborhood they see death and destruction. drones have been around black neighborhoods forever. call george clinton. he will take care of it. mimi, one going to pick with

you. it is not fair that you look great and everything. bye-bye -- in everything. bye-bye. host: tom from florida on the democrat line. caller: i was calling about two things. one is elon musk threatening our legislators with his money. i think it is time the legislators and senate and house wake up and get the money out of politics. we cannot have one man threatening our government like this. the other one is the ceo was murdered for the health care. it is also time to get the money out of health care. let's go to medicare for all. all-inclusive medicare for all. thank you. host: charles in fort lee, new

jersey. independent line. caller: the problem with the drones is indicative of the people's response that the government -- the democratic government does not seem to respond to things the people feel is important. you can go into what happened with the train derailment. look at the hurricanes. the democrat authorities in this country don't seem to be responsive. republicans do seem to be responsive. trump shows it. when you have thousands of people concerned with drones and the democrats in charge of the government seem to be unresponsive, it is indicative of why the democrats lost. democrats have not learned the lesson. you have to listen to the people. republicans seem to listen to the people. that is my concern. that is my statement.

i think people should understand republicans seem to be more responsive to the problems americans seem to be expressing. groceries and oil and so on. in this case it is the drones. no response from the government after a month and a half other than everything is ok when they have no idea what is going on. thank you very much. host: here is eva in columbia, mississippi. republican. caller: the person that called about elon musk and money for the parties in the legislature, i just want to say i did not hear one democrat complain when george soros -- he's from some other country -- buying da's and judges against republicans. not one time did they voice. they are hypocrites.

they are two-faced. you can't tell which way they are going. happy christmas to everybody. host: this is news from the new york times. south korea's president has been impeached over the martial law crisis. celebrations broke out after lawmakers voted to impeach president yoon. he vowed to fight removal in the country's constitutional court. joe, tampa, florida. democrat. caller: i wanted to talk about the back government workers to the office . people have been comfortable working from home. i think that is probably going to lead to a lot of people resigning. you will not have enough people to do the work. the same move is happening in corporate america. i don't think it is a good move. after covid, people realize they could actually work better from

home with less distractions. be on the lookout for less people working and possibly resigning from office. thank you. host: tim in minnesota, republican. caller: hello. how are you? host: doing great. caller:caller: i think it is great somebody like me can call and speak out on some of these national issues. there are so many of them. on elon musk and his money, you know, he's bringing something that is happening in the background to the foreground. if you think he's one of the first guys to support politicians with money and influence, you are sadly mistaken. it is happening all the time.

on the elections, i'm from minnesota. it is such a blue state. i voted for democrats before. the democratic party shot himself in the head. biden committed to be a one term president. he did his job. he beat trump. he was supposed to step aside. dean phillips from minnesota was the only guy in public that said, you know, he ran against him and he lost. host: what did you think of dean phillips since you are from minnesota? what you have voted for him? caller: i probably would have. there was not a good alternative to trump in my opinion. partly because, you know, kamala harris was not elected. there was no debate on kamala.

she was not the best option. if biden would have resigned, not run, they would have, with a better candidate. -- come up with a better candidate who could have beaten trump. host: james in south carolina, democrat. caller: thank you for taking my call. the caller that called in about trump touching people, she said they say it is ok. how does he know it is ok? host: that is all the time we've got. we are having our next segment with robin maher, executive director of the death penalty information center.

she will discuss calls for president biden to commute federal death sentences before president-elect donald trump assumes office. we will be right back. ♪ >> next week on the c-span networks, the house and senate are in session for their last scheduled week of work. both chambers are facing a deadline to pass government funding to avert a shutdown. the senate plans to vote on the 2025 defense programs and policy bill. on tuesday, charlie baker of the national collegiate athletic association testifies before the senate judiciary committee investigating growth in legalized sports gambling since the supreme court ruling in murphy versus the ncaa.

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45 years and counting, powered by cable. >> washington journal continues. host: joining us to talk about the death penalty in the u.s. is robin maher. executive director of the death penalty information center. welcome. guest: great to be back. host: tell us about the death penalty information center. guest: thank you. we are a national nonprofit organization that provides information, data and analysis to the media, lawmakers and the public about how the death penalty is used in the united states. we are not an advocacy organization. host: does that mean you did not take a position on the death penalty? guest: we don't have policy. we are not seeking evolution. -- abolitoin. it's important -- abolition. it's important to understand the

death penalty. host: there have been calls for president biden to commute the federal death sentences before he leaves office. how many individuals are there on federal death row? guest: 40 meant currently have an active death sentence on the federal row. host: is there a state death penalty and what is the difference? guest: that's one of the challenges. every state makes a choice about whether it will use the death penalty. right now there are 27 states that have the option of using the death penalty. the federal government has a separate system, as does the military. there are three different kinds of systems. among the states are many differences about how they choose to use the death penalty or not. host: let me ask you about what happens when a death sentence is commuted. does that immediately become life without parole?

what actually happens? guest: this is a point of confusion. when we talked about the power president biden has, his clemency power that is constitutionally granted is an umbrella term for a lot of things he could do. for his son hunter, that was a pardon. that was a different kind of clemency grant. we are only talking about for these 40 men on the federal row is a change of their sentence from the death sentence to life without the possibility of parole. that is the only option. that is what would happen if president biden decided to go that route. host: can these decisions be reversed? can the person be put to death later under another president? guest: that has never happened. there is no precedent for that happening at the lot does not permit that from happening -- does not permit that to happen. i cannot say president trump be the kind of person he is, i don't know what he might do.

we can say with some certainty even president trump respects the power of commutation and clemency. i think he would probably leave it alone. host: what of the factors going into that kind of decision? why would president biden commute the sentences? guest: there are lots of good reasons. this is an enormous coalition of people who are attempting to persuade president biden. organizations, racial justice organizations and civil rights organizations. many individuals. religious organizations and faith leaders like pope francis who is been vocally persuading president biden. we also have some unusual voices like a number of corrections officials. people who presided over executions. we have elected members of congress. we have elected prosecutors, state officials and probably most important family members. people who lost loved ones to

violence. some to the people who are on the federal death row now. all these people are calling on president biden to commute the sentences, because they see long-standing systemic problems with the federal death penalty. the way it has been used. host: talk about some of those problems. guest: the most important is that has been used in an arbitrary and racially discriminatory way. this is an issue that has been studied repeatedly. it is well documented. even doj officials acknowledged these serious concerns over the years. we see that predominantly the federal death penalty has been used against people of color, and against people of color who have killed white people. we know there is a very pronounced race-victim bias. we can see that all the statistics and data we have seen throughout the history of the death penalty.

three out of four people who have been charged with a federal death sentence are people of color. that has been true since 1989. these are powerful statistics. the federal death penalty has many of the same problems that state death penalty systems have, which is to say we have prosecutorial misconduct. we've had unreliable junk science and terrible lawyering, all leads to unjust results. people are sometimes innocent and are wrongly convicted. people that did not deserve death sentences ended up on death row. host: if you would like to join the conversation with robin maher of the death penalty information center, if you have a question about the death penalty or a comment, here is how they are split up. if you support the death penalty , (202) 748-8000. if you are opposed to the death penalty, it is (202) 748-8001.

if you are unsure, (202) 748-8002. i want to show a gallup statistic on the question are you in favor of the death penalty for a person convicted of murder. here is what it looks like. it is at 53% in favor. 44% opposed. 2% with no opinion. the trend is interesting. the not in favor or opposed seems to be -- actually is trending up since the late 1990's. what do you attribute that to? guest: the long-term trend has been significant. back from the time when i was 80% of the population supported the death penalty, we are down to barely a majority of people. 53%. when you dig down into the numbers further, you find there are some incredible generational

differences. young adults now between the ages of 18 and 43, a majority of those young adults oppose the death penalty. we can see as we go forward we will see growing this approval of the death penalty -- disapproval of the death penalty. our real influencer on opinion has been the specter of innocent people on death row. this year has been a particularly illustrative year. we have seen several high-profile cases of people who had very credible evidence of innocent who have been nonetheless unable to secure any kind of relief from the courts. one of those men, marsalis williams, was executed in missouri in september. his case drew about 1.5 million signatures from the public trying to support a bid for clemency, which failed. there has been a number of very high profile cases which shook

the confidence of the megan public about how -- american public about how accurately the -- host: it says the drop in death penalty support led by younger generations, less than half of millennials and gen z are in favor of this for convicted murderers. president biden ran for president opposing the death penalty. he has yet during his term thus far, and it is coming to a close, commuted a federal death sentence. how often have president used this power for the death penalty? guest: we have seen examples of presidents using this in the past. they are usually a number of individuals. it is rare. there are not any people on the federal death row. we saw two cases that are

president biden who received relief. one was on the military row and one was on federal death row. the precedents for mass grants of clemency is pretty strong. we've had a number of state governors who have made decisions to clear all the people on their death rows. eight different times in the modern era. host: cleared in what way? guest: commute everybody sentence on the row to life without the possibility of parole. this addresses public safety concerns. no one is saying that people will be released. they will die in prison. it is a harsh and very severe sentence but an alternative to the execution. host: let's talk to callers. nathaniel in irvington, new jersey. caller: how are you guys doing? i want to thank ms. robin for

the good work she's doing. i am a minority in this country. we feel the death penalty targets us as a community unjustly. i've had one issue with conservatives and pro-life advocates. they are so much on the front lines for life in the womb. so many push for the death penalty. i feel like that is a walking contradiction. how could you be so harsh and a proponent of the death penalty? thank you for the great work you are doing and i will listen off-line. thank you. guest: i appreciate the comments. this is a really important subject. americans have been used to the death penalty, dealing with the definitely in their lives for many decades. we've had it since colonial days. what we are seeing in the past

few decades is that most americans are turning away from the death penalty. they lost confidence in its accuracy and are concernedthey e racist effect they have seen in the tremendous cost. death penalty cases are the most expensive of criminal cases in the federal system. there was a study done in 2010 that documented that seeking a federal death sentence cost eight times more than seeking another kind of sentence including life without the possibility of parole. for lots of reasons taxpayers are looking at this issue in deciding this is not something that they want their taxpayer dollars invested in. there are all -- there are alternatives that will keep them just as safe. host: bruce in laurel, maryland, you oppose the death penalty. caller: she mentioned that all

of the people on death row are men, a bias against men compared to blacks is much higher. in court they say should a black woman be convicted in the manson family trial, they use that even though it was one of the rare cases where women got convicted. you can see other times should we give the death penalty to a woman. i think it is much higher than that against blacks. thank you very much. guest: right now there are 50 women on state death rows throughout the country. you might remember that during the trump administration, one woman on federal death row was executed, lisa montgomery. host: if you could talk about the method of execution being employed and how that has evolved over time. guest: that has been interesting to watch. the most common method is still lethal injection. that is a method that most of

the state still use and the federal government used during the trump administration execution. in recent years some of the drugs typically used have become more difficult to secure. it also got more expensive. in utah, utah officials spent $200,000 to secure three doses of pentobarbital. some of the states have looked at other methods. alabama is the most notable example. they decided to do -- to use nitrogen gas and they have used that three times this year. other states have looked at old methods. south carolina is looking at the firing squad and electric chair again. host: why was the electric chair phased out? guest: chiefly because people objected to what they were seeing. there were some really horrible examples of people who were

executed in an electric chair. some of them were set on fire. these were graphic and awful displays. witnesses reported smelling flesh burning during the execution. this did not sit well with the american public. people did not think that was something we should be doing as a modern, evolved society. lethal injection was turned to as a way of using a peaceful and clinically appropriate way of executing people. of course we saw that fall apart a few years ago when states began experimenting with different drugs and we saw a number of botched executions. very painful executions where it looked like the prisoner was suffering quite a lot. we still see problems with every method of execution. some of that has to do with the training of the staff or the drugs that are chosen. and one additional complicating detail is a fact that most states shroud their protocols in

secrecy. so the public and the media are not allowed to see what kind of information has gone into creating the protocols, what kind of experts were consulted, what kind of drugs and where the drugs were obtained from. there are a lot of of questions and that leads to an increased risk that there will be another botched execution. host: have you ever witnessed an execution? guest: i have not. host: ashton in st. petersburg, florida, on the line for unsure. hello. caller: how are you? host: good. caller: i had a question about the death penalty. there is the issue of when a new president comes into office, does that president take responsibility for the previous president's death penalty statement? host: meaning the -- if he commutes any sentences?

caller: yes. if the previous president wants him to go ahead and pass that and then the next president changes his mind and says that he wants the man to live, is that something done and is possible? guest: i am not sure i understand the question? host: in other words, i guess if the original if the president says he is going to be executed, but then before he is executed the next president comes in and commutes the sentence, is that ok? guest: that is fine. the power of the president is absolute. thinking back on my answer regarding the commutations. there is no precedent in history for any president to come in and undo the commutation decisions that a previous president has made. that is highly unlikely. each president has incredible

power which is why this is such an opportunity for president biden. he is thinking about his legacy and catholic faith, which has something to do with the decision he will make. he is being urged by religious organizations to think about the decision carefully. this is an incredible opportunity to exercise a very unique power before he leaves office and make an incredible difference. host: alex in miami beach, florida. good morning. caller: how are you? host: good. guest: i support the death penalty that i think we should be selective about how we apply this. in south florida, marjory stoneman douglas, the guy killed 17 innocent people and he gets a life sentence. but 70 gets a death penalty for one or two murders. guest: that is a little bit about how arbitrarily the death

penalty is used. it is one of the reasons that people have concerns about how we use the death penalty. each of these cases is unique and juries make different decisions that there are so many variables on who gets charged and who is selected. you know, the supreme court back in 1976 said that we can either use the death penalty fairly and consistently, or not at all. so the arbitrariness that the caller talked about is one of the reasons that people are concerned that the death penalty is not that -- not something we should be doing. host: this is helen in new jersey. good morning. caller: good morning. i oppose death penalty and abortion because human life is so precious and fragile. and we have become very cavalier about destroying human life at the beginning and at the end. and that is why i do not support

either the death penalty or abortion. guest: thank you. and -- host: and this is john, mississippi. on the line for support. caller: yes ma'am, i do support the death penalty. we need it desperately. host: any other comment? nope. guest: one thing i would like to add is that people feel strongly sometimes about being in favor of the death penalty or not, but they and -- that can be a different question on whether this is the right thing to do the men on federal death row. the kind of long-standing problems that we have fairly administering the death penalty can be separate considerations. what i think most of the people in this coalition are talking about our problems that occurred in the past. we have 40 men many of whom were convicted and sentenced to death

decades ago under overzealous prosecutorial laws that runs -- that unfairly targeted black men chief lee. this is a remedy and a way of writing a terrible wrong that has occurred over the past several years. host: i want to show the map of the united states from your website and that is states with and without the death penalty as of this year. if you look the red is where the death penalty is instated. the yellow is not. and the blue are states with the death penalty, but a pause on executions is in effect by executive action. what are you seeing as far as trends in those statistics? guest: what we are seeing in trends is a continued decline in the number of executions and new death sentences.

i cannot overemphasize how important the number of new death sentences is, that is the current day and most reliable indicator of how society feels about the death penalty right now. previously, 25 or 30 years ago we had more than 300 new death sentences every year. this year, we will be in the low 20's. it is a dramatic difference. host: why is that? guest: it shows that people are not interested in using it anymore for all of the reasons i identified earlier. they have lost confidence in the accuracy, and lost confidence that it can be used effectively as a deterrent. there is no evidence to support the idea that the use of the death penalty deters future crime and they are concerned about racism and unfairness. the other thing that we are seeing is that where the death penalty is still being used it is being used in a handful of states. we had just nine states

executing people this year. 10 states sentencing people to death. that is a very small number of the larger group that has the death penalty available. in those other states they are not using the death penalty by choice. host: sue in new jersey, opposed to the death penalty. caller: hello. host: go right ahead. caller: i -- ms. maher. for lethal injection protocol, i am opposed to the death penalty, but i have always wondered, instead of using these strange mixes of barbaric drugs, have they ever considered using something like a powerful overdose of morphine?

guest: yes. i think that a number of states that are examining their execution protocol have considered a variety of things including overdoses of various drugs. and part of the question is how much should we be experimenting with human lives? there is no perfect form of execution that we can guarantee will not result in pain and suffering because things go wrong when human beings are involved. and again because of inadequate training or a protocol that does not have specific detail, when unexpected things happen things can go wrong. we are also seeing as prisoners get older and spend more time on death row they have underlying physical conditions that can complicate the execution itself. fundamentally, to answer your question, it is not a great idea

for states to experiment with using different kinds of drugs to kill people because that can result in very painful and unfortunate deaths. host: andy in phoenix, arizona on the line for support. caller: good morning. i look at it different. i really think the family of the victim should have kind of a say so with the prosecutor. you might know about this or might not, but the little 12-year-old girl in texas who was brutally motored -- murdered by two illegals. her mother thinks it is the appropriate sentencing for that situation. so i think a lot of people who do not have skin in the game really can say what they want, but it should be left up to the family. i know if someone did something tragically to one of my loved ones, i would support the death

penalty. thank you. host: ok. guest: well, that is why one of the mower unique aspects of the voices that we here in support of commutation are the voices of victim family members. these are people who have lost loved ones to violence, and one of the more vocal voices in this effort is the reverend sharon reassure who lost her mother to the charleston shooting that dylan roof was sentenced to death for. she has been extremely vocal with the fact that she does not believe that executing him will bring back her mother or ease her pain. and so she is among the prominent voices that are trying to persuade president biden to take this action. host: on the other hand there is a family that says i really want the death penalty and i want it done quickly, does that make a difference? guest: both our voices that

prosecutors listen to. the important thing to hear that is that all victims voices are not the same and it is very different and an individual decision. what we are seeing by way of trend is that more victim family members who are speaking out to say this does not bring me any more peace and it does not solve the hurt and pain that i feel, and it is not something i am in support of. host: john in florida, the line for unsure. are you there? john is not -- caller: i am here. host: ok. go ahead. caller: the reason i am asking and everyone is bouncing around whether they should live or die. i am wondering who is paying for keeping somebody alive? because only about half the people in this country pay taxes. the people who pay the taxes are the ones keeping these folk alive. so, is it up to the state or the

federal to pay the bill for those people staying alive or the taxpayer? guest: great question. it is the taxpayer. it is another good reason why people think twice about using the death penalty. the death penalty is expensive. every single study in the states have conducting it -- that have conducted it mistreated that using the death penalty is many times more expensive than sentencing someone to an alternate sentence of even life without parole in a maximum-security setting. host: what are the costs associated? guest: at every step of the process in a capital case there are additional expenses. at the moment that the prosecution decides to seek death that automatically makes the criminal case the most expensive criminal case. the jury needs to be carefully selected. juries are only seated if they agree that they can provide a death sentence.

so, that takes a lot of time to ask all the right questions. there is additional security that is needed at a capital case. they are two parts, a guilt and sentencing phase. it takes a lot more time and resources and a lot more effort on both the part of the prosecution and on the part of the defense. that is just the trial. and then we have appeals and additional security at a separate death row for people to be kept all the way leading to the execution. by any measure the death penalty is far more expensive, which is why many people have said i have other things i would like my taxpayer dollars to be invested in. host: explained death row. is it a separate area of a prison or what is it? guest: it is different in every state. in the federal system, it is at terre haute, indiana. this is a separate facility for those under sentence of death are kept.

these are difficult and isolating conditions. most people are in their cells for the majority of every day. may be allowed to exercise for a few hours each week. they do not smell the fresh air, they do not get good food. there is very poor medical and mental health treatment available. and they are kept in extreme isolation, so much so that under international law standards we are in violation on restrictions of the use of solitary confinement. we also know that this takes a toll on prisoners. we know that people who are in that kind of severe isolation and solitary confinement for years at a time will become insensate mentally. these are serious conditions. this is not a light sentence by any means and this is a very severe in syria sentence. what is -- a very severe sentence. what is nice to know is that

many prisoners come to grips with the crimes they have committed and have worked on rehabilitating themselves, and also expressed remorse to the families that they have hurt. that has been a unique aspect of the long term confinement. host: lorraine in naples, florida on the line for oppose. caller: hello, i am opposed because i read up on other countries and how they treat their prisoners for their wrongdoing. and i think we need to be educated and lift up the country. and educate -- i mean, the people on death row can give back so much to those in jail for life. they have the experience now. thank you. host: comments? guest: nothing to add. host: ronnie in south carolina

on the line for support. caller: yes. the problem is that we do not have any staffing in these prisons. we are supposed to have 25 to 30 people working and you have five or six. it is dangerous and you feel sorry for the people, the inmates, but you do not feel sorry for the staffing. they are in danger all the time. and you want to keep more people. host: it is an interesting comment -- guest: it is an interesting comment and not my area of expertise. some of the voices a part of a broad coalition urging president biden include the voices of corrections staff and officials. host: why? guest: we have become more aware of the trauma that these corrections officials and staff experience when they are participating in executions. we have heard from a great number of them, the example in supporting commutations in state

systems but also at the federal level where we have a corrections official who presided over a number of executions in ohio saying this is -- the death penalty one not result in ever -- in any kind of deterrent and it does not help anyone but all it does is traumatize the staff working with these prisoners for so many years. these are unique perspectives which makes this entire effort a really interesting one to look at. host: margo in arkansas. good morning. caller: good morning and thank you for having me on. i just want to share, my brother was murdered in phoenix, arizona. and they did catch the guys who did it and it was horrific. and i will make the story short. when it came time for sentencing , the judge gave the family, they gave us the opportunity to

say what we wanted. did we want the death penalty or life without parole. and after giving it much thought and prayer, mine was to give him life without parole and that is what he got. and the other guy that got participated in stabbing him multiple times. they were sentenced to life without parole. and they ended up, the one tried to kill himself. and the one did die, but before they died, they said that they were sorry. and -- to the family for what they did. and, i personally myself, i could not say kill them. it was something inside of me, as a christian, i could not take somebody's life and i did not want that hanging on my shoulders for the rest of my life. i left that up to god.

and that was my thoughts on it. and for almost two years as a family we were just held in limbo waiting to see what the judge was going to say. and, the judge had each one of us that did not attend the sentencing to write a letter to the court. and i wrote a letter. he read them to the court. and basically what i said was today, to stand before the judge on this art -- on this earth and he will sentence you one way or the other, but you will stand before the great judge one day and you will be judged for what you did. and i left it at that. and i say i have forgiven you. and the biggest release in my life ever to go through something was to say i forgive you. host: thank you so much for

sharing that. guest: thank you. host: richard is next. minneapolis, minnesota. line for support. good morning. caller: i was shocked listening to robin say how much money it costs to keep them with a death penalty and appeals. i think that is a bunch of bs, when someone is proven guilty beyond a doubt they should be put to death asap. not put in prison for 10 or 20 years paying medical and feeding and guarding them. that is my opinion. guest: you know, one of the reasons we need time after a conviction because we know that we do not get it right all the time. for lots of reasons i have mentioned including the fact that sometimes the best lawyers are not involved. sometimes there are mistakes with the evidence. sometimes there is prosecutorial misconduct. we need time to look carefully

through the trial, raise any possible issue and make good decisions about whether the conviction and death sentence is correct. that takes time. it is a thoughtful process that takes many years sometimes. but i think that is what we need to do if we are willing to use the most severe punishment available in the criminal justice system. we have seen 200 people, we reach the number 200 this year, people wrongfully convicted and very nearly executed and that is probably in undercount. we know that there are many other people wrongfully convicted and executed before we learned about their circumstances. we have very strict criteria at the death penalty center, we only look at people who are completely exonerated by a court. this is a very small number of what we think is the actual number of people who were wrongfully convicted and sentenced to death. this is why we need that time.

we absolutely need that time after a conviction and death sentence to be sure we did not make a mistake. host: christopher, daytona beach, florida. good morning. caller: good morning. how do the men need to hear this conversation. everyone calling and that is male is so quick to accuse and kill. and then you listen to the women and there is light sustaining. the vocabulary is different and the heart is they are. this is why it is confounding to me to hear both of you speak so eloquently, very well spoken and intelligent and to hear the politics brought into killing people and hearing you on c-span speak about the death penalty like this. i don't know. this seems like maybe some of

these callers are calling into say that that is their opinion and that these people should just be killed. and may be the pushback from more intelligent people, not that anyone is more intelligent than another, the -- that you can pushback on the people that hang up so quickly and maybe remind them and teach them that they are on death row because they did something horrible. or like you said, some of them are innocent. but they did do that horrible thing and that is still a part of us. host: all right. guest: interesting perspective and i appreciate it. one thing we have not talked about a lot is that so many people in the criminal justice -- criminal justice system written large and those on death row are people with significant vulnerabilities. these are people with severe mental illness, intellectual

disabilities, people who experienced unspeakable trauma and neglect. one of the reasons we are seeing fewer new death sentences and some of the changes we are seeing in public opinion polls is because we know more about the effects of mental illness and trauma on behavior. our defense lawyers are doing a better job presenting that information to juries and juries appreciate that. when they have to make that ultimate decision about whether this person is worthy of a death sentence or worthy of life, they are going for life more and more. i think this is an evolution and a lot of what the caller just talked about. we are appreciating more about human frailty and the people in our criminal justice system and finding reasons to go for life instead of death. host: robin maher, executive rector of the death penalty information center. you can find out more of that at

deathpenaltyinfo.org. that is our show for the day, we will be back tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. eastern time. until then, have a great saturday. ♪ [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2024] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

>> >> today the united states and our partners in the region have agreed on a set of shared principles to guide our support for syria and its people going forward. we have an important stake in helping the syrian people chart

this path. we know that what happens inside of syria could have powerful consequences will be on these borders from mass displacement to terrorism. we know we cannot underestimate the challenges of this moment and in the weeks and months ahead. the syrian population is traumatized from decades of oppression. the assad regime took efforts to -- humanitarian needs of the people are massive. they want to use this period of uncertainty to try to regain foothold. no one understands these challenges better than the syrian people themselves. they know they will need support from their neighbors and the international community. in this region and elsewhere we have seen how the fall of regimes can swiftly give way to more conflict and chaos. how the shoes of one dictator can be filled by another or how interference by an outside country can be thrown off only

to be replaced by another. that is why it is so important that we and our partners came together today to agree on principles that will guide our efforts to help the syrian people meet these challenges and build the inclusive sovereign state that they want. our message to the syrian people is this, we want them to succeed and we are prepared to help them do so. today's agreement sends a unified message to the new interim authority and partners in syria on securing much-needed support which we have reflected in the joint communique that should be issued shortly. the transition process should be led by syria and owned by syria and produced an inclusive and representative government. the rights of all syrians should be respected. humanitarian aid should reach people who need it. st