♪ host: good morning. it is sunday come up 9, 2025.

the unprecedented access of a private citizen to sensitive data raising alarm among lawmakers along with robert effort to dramatically reduce the size of the federal government. this morning, we want to know if you support or oppose elon musk's doge efforts. our line for republicans, (202) 748-8001. for democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents can reach us at (202) 748-8002. if you would like to text us, that number is (202) 748-8003. please be sure to include your name and where you are writing in from. on social media, you can find us at facebook.com/c-span, and on x @cspanwj. a variety from various news outlets to what elon musk has been up to the last few weeks with his doge system, including the washington post editorial board. trump needs to erect guardrails

for doge. careful vetting of staff and limitations on access could improve the project and protect the president. going on to say that trump promised before the election he would put musk in charge of doge , which stands for the department of government efficiency, and then won a mandate for disruption. it is also true that the $36 trillion national debt is unsustainable and there is plenty of blood in government, but musk lacks governing experience and any accountability to voters. he has treated the federal workforce rudely and recklessly, neglected to distinguish between what is working in government and what isn't. what is more, as a government contractor, an about opponent of regulatory scrutiny and a ceo who stands to benefit from certain federal policies, musk has considerable conflict of interest forget he should not be allowed to slash and burn the federal bureaucracy to his own

hearts desire. needs guardrails, and the president is the one to provide them. one of the controversial areas of cuts so far has been usaid. but here is an opinion piece by david marcus in fox news saying if usaid is so vital, where is the global outrage? this piece goes out to see if you listen to democrats these days, you will hear limitations about the deep cuts that trump administration is making to the usaid.lives will be lost , they insist, but curiously, outside of the united states, there has been a deafening silence in regard to this massive shift in how america goes about funding various projects around the world, and even some support for changes in unlikely corners. president trump was asked about some of the criticisms of doge in a press conference with japan's prime minister on friday, and here is a portion of that question and his response. [video clip] >> mr. president, i wonder what

you make of the criticisms of the cuts that elon musk and doge are doing as an unlawful power grab forget is there anything you told musk he cannot touch? >> we have not discussed much. i will tell him go here and there. he has a group of capable people. very capable. they know what they are doing. they will ask questions and immediately see if someone is tongue-tied if they are crooked or don't know what they are doing. we have very smart people going and so i instructed him to go into education, military, other things as we go along, and they are finding massive amounts of fraud, abuse, waste, these kinds of things. but i will pick up the target and say go in. they could be areas we won't, but i think everything is -- we are a government. we have to be open. as an open government, maybe some high intelligence or

something, and i will do that myself if i have to, but generally speaking, i will just say. but he will be looking at education pretty quickly and looking at military too. host: there have been a variety of legal challenges against some of the actions taken by doge thus far. for the latest on that, there is a story in cnn just from yesterday that a federal judge has blocked elon musk's doge access to critical treasury payment system. this saying if and when judge cited a risk of irreparable harm has temporarily restricted elon musk's government efficiency team from accessing a critical treasury department payment system. the judge's order issued early saturday temporarily halts access to a sensitive payment system that distributes americans's tax returns, social security benefits, disability payments, and federal employees's salaries. let's get to your calls on whether you support or oppose

elon musk's doge efforts. let's start with robert in california and our line for democrats. good morning, robert. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. as we know, president trump has been flagrantly violating the law and constitution with many of his executive orders, so i was very happy to see al green has filed articles of impeachment against president donald trump. president trump rules through the use of intimidation and fear, and that is why i advocate for a secret ballot for his impeachment vote. less malicious attempt to harm lawmakers's families. a secret ballot is often used by lawmakers against one of their own and it only takes a simple majority vote in the senate to approve a rule change for a secret ballot. i think even some republicans

would be very happy to see trump put out of commission for good, but they need the protection of a secret ballot for the vote. a secret ballot was used for his first two impeachment votes, we probably would not be in this situation, so maybe three is the charm. thank you for hearing me out, and that is about all i have to say right now. host: dalia is in miami on our line for republicans. good morning. caller: good morning. what i want to say is there has been so much waste in this country, and we are so much in debt. the democrats got scared because they have always said, oh, no, the republicans want to take your social security away, your medicare. no. the waste is everywhere. i am a retired federal worker,

and i can tell you about waste. when you are coming on september 30, everyone would be in a panic because we would have to spend all the money and it was wasteful. my husband also works for the federal government. one year he was in charge of the balance of the money. he was working for the v.a. and when he found out there was so much money left, he told him tomorrow morning we are going shopping, come with a checkbook. they went out and bought new furniture for the entire office, which they did not need. and it was wasteful. and in my office, the project

for the travel, there was a lot of money left. and all the big shots, all the ones, they came up with a trip to italy. now, why did they have to go to italy? nobody knows. there is waste everywhere. and about this usaid, you can see the kind of money that they spend, our money because i am a tired, but my retirement is taxable. and they are wasting money like crazy. host: similar to what dalia is saying, there have been many republicans have celebrated doge so far, including house speaker mike johnson.

there is a story in newsnation where johnson says doge actions are long overdue and much welcomed. this piece going on to say that asked if musk had been given powers that fall under article one of the constitution that grants congress various integrated powers and the rights to pass laws to carry out those powers, johnson, a louisiana republican, defended the agency, telling reporters that the executive branch of the government has a right to evaluate how agencies within the branch operate. here is him speaking at a news conference last week. [video clip] >> what is happening right now, i think there is a gross overreaction in the media to what is happening. the executive branch of government in our system has the right to evaluate how executive branch agencies are operating and to ensure that not only the intent of congress and funding mechanisms, but also the stewardship of precious american taxpayer dollars is being handled well. that is what they are doing by

putting a pause on some of those agencies or evaluating them or doing internal audits. that is a long overdue much welcomed development. that is what the american people demand and deserve and that is what is happening so we don't see this as a threat to article one at all. we see this as an active, engaged, committed executive branch authority doing what the executive branch should do. they have broad discretion and all the funding. you know this. when congress gets funding, they get broad discretion to the executive branch on how that is administered. they are using that authority right now in a way that has not been used in a long time. it looks radical, but it is not i call it stewardship. they are doing right by the american taxpayer and we support that point. when it comes to codification and legislation and all the rest, we will be evaluating that but they are acting within the scope of their authority. there have been legal challenges but as far as i'm concerned, this is not a usurpa or a paragraph.

tion they are doing what we expected and what they have been asked to do for years. host: some of your reactions on whether you support or oppose elon musk's doge efforts coming from text messages. don in san antonio, texas, says when the media is running nonstop hit pieces on elon musk, i know he must be doing something right. mike in hillsboro, north carolina, says 100% all actions taken, democrats have lost their minds. on x, dc venice says musk has to go. the richest conflict of interest. pam from randolph, ohio, says elon musk poses a threat to every american. with the republican senate bought and paid for, we are left vulnerable to a narcissistic and racist man who cares nothing

about any of us, especially the most underserved individuals. you can text us at (202) 748-8003. reach us on facebook at facebook.com/c-span, or on x @cspanwj. back to your calls. lauren is in arkansas on our line for democrats. good morning, lauren. caller: good morning. in the last election, i voted for kamala harris because i knew if trump got in office, he would have a lot of influence on what he did. i definitely was not expecting this development. my wife came into my room when this first started. when she told me about it, i got so mad that i threw the spaghetti across the room and it got on her dress and she started screaming. host: tommy is in alabama on our line for republicans. good morning, tommy. caller: good morning, ma'am.

how are you doing this morning? host: fine, thank you. caller: doing good. i trust elon musk and donald trump are good look at what biden has done. he tore everybody apart. they can't afford rent or food or anything. i hope that everyone will find god and let him do what we put him in there for. host: are there particular moves that elon musk has made so far that you think are particularly good? caller: i don't think he is going to mess with anything because he knows god is watching over him. host: ok. darrell is in wilmington, delaware, on our line for independents. good morning. caller: good morning, kimberly. how are you? host: good. how are you? caller: not so good. host: do you support or oppose elon musk's efforts? caller: 100%, i oppose it. there are gross conflict of interest. speaking as a federal worker, in

all due respect to the callers in florida, i currently am a government worker in one of the targeted agencies and have seen a complete -- the morale. sorry, it is a little emotional. and as an individual who has had to go through many security clearances, it is quite this alarming. that an individual private citizen has so much control and access to our public information. we have to go through a training which shows us how to deal with classified information. i wonder, has elon musk or any of the individuals he has

empowered to go through our governmental systems and handle our data gone through this training? mind you, we have to go through these trainings periodically as an it is supposed to be yearly but they do it every couple months because there is always a policy. it is very alarming. in terms of mike johnson, there was another more disingenuous individual. he is supposed to be the steward for the protection of americans and what is in their best interest. it seems he is only interested in the political agenda of his party and clearly the facilitation of what is going on with project 2025. and on a further notice, may i say just one more thing, not to

speak of racism, but can you please bring up the story of the executive order -- not to bring up a conflict of interest, but the executive order of trump to give preference to the individuals from south america or non-individuals of color or of european descent, to give those refugees priority in their refugee status? that is alarming. it shows there is clearly an agenda here to remake and reshape this country. it is not for the benefit of all, but for the benefit of a certain type or group of individuals. thank you. if you have any questions for me, i am here. host: i want to follow up. darrell mentioned the team musk

is working with and the concerns around that team. there is a story in wired magazine titled "the young inexperienced engineers aiding elon musk's government takeover." engineers between 19 and 24, most linked to musk's companies, are playing a key role as he seizes control of federal infrastructure. wired has identified six young men, all apparently between the ages of 19 and 24 according to public databases, their presence is, and records that have no government expense and are playing critical roles in musk's so-called department of government efficiency efforts and modernizing federal technology and software to maximize governmental efficiency and productivity. the engineers hold maybe list -- hold nebulous titles within doge and what appears to be working as a volunteer. it is a comment received on x from mary hemingway who says, i voted to clean up waste, fraud,

and abuse of government spending. the democrats should get on board or they will never win another election. the taxpayers are watching you. maxwell is in culpeper, virginia, on ever line for democrats. good morning, maxwell. caller: how are you? host: good, thanks. do you support or oppose musk's efforts? caller: i oppose it. my thing is right here, there is no government, there is no government, there is no government efficiency. doge. what is doge? somebody going to create it? that is just created by the king, donald trump. it is amazing to me that people are falling in line until their social security gets hurt, everything gets hurt. there is going to be some hurt

going on here. i got so much going on in my mind right now because i can't believe the people are falling in line for this foolery. this foolery. it is just straight foolery that these people are falling in line for a crazy guy that is going from agency to agency to agency to agency to fix them. republicans, you will pay for it in the midterms. they are going to pay for it in the midterms. i am saying that now. they are going to pay for it in the midterms. but the crazy part is that they just sit back and don't say nothing. nothing. this guy is -- he got my access. he got your access. he got everybody's access to their accounts, to what they file in taxes, and file.

it is amazing that people are that slow, i want to be nice and say they are slow, especially on the republican side, to say that they are happy with somebody taking and getting all of their information. i am not happy with that. host: maxwell, you were mentioning the response of various mobs of congress and the potential consequences for republicans. republicans blocked musk from a congressional subpoena as doge continues to access government data as is pointed out in this headline in abc news. the request say musk is ignoring the law and has no authority to cut spending, but on wednesday, congressional republicans blocked democratic efforts to compel him to answer for his actions under oath at the same time, protests demanding accountability continued. musk, who has not made any public appearances since the in

commission, has publicly called for slashing government spending, and doge has frozen funding for several agencies, including usaid, the international aid agency, designated as special government employee by the white house, musk claims he has been checking in with president donald trump about his tactics. that moment in congress when democrats were attempting to subpoena trump caused a bit of controversy and back and forth. let's listen to a moment from the house oversight committee hearing last week. [video clip] >> who is this unelected billionaire that he can attempt to dismantle federal agencies, fire people, transfer them, offer them early retirement, and have sweeping changes to agencies without any congressional review, oversight, or concurrence. therefore, mr., given his prominence and his importance, i

move that the committee subpoena elon musk to come before it as a witness at the earliest possible moment. and i so move. >> there has been a motion and second. the motion is not debatable. >> mr. chairman, why is it not debatable? point of order. >> it is debatable. >> mr. chairman, i strike the last word. >> pulled on. >> mr. chairman. >> table the motion. ok. >> mr. chairman, why don't we want to debate elon musk coming in and talking to us about his work and how he has enriched himself and $164 billion? >> mr. chairman. >> thank you, i moved to table the motion. >> i second. >> seconded by mr. higgins. >> the motion is not debatable.

>> point of order. >> as many are in favor of tingling. >> point of order. state your point. >> mr. chairman, i think it is outrageous this committee will not entertain -- >> gestate your point. that is not a point of order. >> dismantling our federal agencies. >> out of order. out of order. >> he will not debate a motion to bring this to the oversight committee. yes, let's have order in this committee. >> you are out of order. you know you are out of order. you know the rules of this committee. host: at the same time, there is a report in the hill that gop support for musk's influence with trump has fallen dramatically, going on to say the share of republicans who say they want tech billionaire elon musk to have significant influence in the trump administration has fallen

substantially in the months since president trump was elected. the economist poll, 47% of surveyed republicans said they wanted musk to have a lot of influence in the trump administration while 29% wanted a little and 12% wanted him to have none at all. today, the share of republicans who say they want musk to have a lot of influence has fallen substantially to 26%. while, 43% of public respondents say they want musk to have a little influence. and 17% say they want him to have none at all according to the latest poll from the economist released on wednesday. back to your calls. mike is from wisconsin and on ever line for republicans begin good morning. caller: good morning. i have been listening to you guys all week and you have once again filled the viewers of this show. not once for one minute you guys

actually went through a little bit and showed, what was his name, kennedy talking about is actually in the usaid that needs to get cut. one minute. every thing else you are talking about, do you support musk? do you hate him or do you like him? so please let me go through a small list of things that the left is pushing on the entire world, and by the way, the american voter, almost 80% of americans said the country was going in the wrong direction before the election, so the american people do not want d.e.i., do not want this in our own country, but we will pay for it for other countries. host: mike, did you want to mention some of the things? i thought you said you wanted to highlight some of the things that were problematic about usaid. was d.e.i. the main one? caller: no. i will go through the list.

you will not interrupt me. i will go through the list. we have $6 million to fund tourism in egypt. do you support or not for taxpayer dollars? $25,000 for transgender opera. $1.5 million to advance d.e.i. in serbia. $10 million for meals for al qaeda affiliated fighters in syria. now, that is just a couple things. this list i have come $68 million -- host: where are you getting this list from? caller: if you watched more than just the liberal media sheets you have in front of you, you would see it. watch newsmax. they are all talking about it. our own press secretary has set it all week. you show clips of her but refused to show her talking about this. host: all right, well here is a story from the associated press. not sure if that is one of the news organizations that you do

or do not like, but highlighting what usaid does and why trump and musk want to get rid of it. dozens of senior officials put on leave. thousands of contractors laid off. they freeze put on billions of dollars and he minute tribune assistance to other countries. over the last two weeks, president donald trump's administration has made significant changes to the u.s. agency charged with live ring he minute to get assistance overseas that has left aid organizations agonizing over whether or not they can continue with programs such as nutritional assistance for malnourished infants and children, but let's look at some of the things that usaid funds. sorry. going down, critics of usaid say funding for united nations agencies including peacekeeping, human rights, and refugee agencies and traditional targets for republican administrations to cut. the first trump administration moved to reduce foreign aid spending, suspending payments to various you and agencies

including the u.n. population fund and funding to the palestinian authority's. in trump's first term, the u.s. pulled out of the u.n. human rights council and its financial obligations to that body. white is elon musk going after usaid? this is because musk alleges usaid funding has been used to watch deadly programs and called a criminal organization. sub-saharan africa could suffer more than any other region during the's. the u.s. gave the region he minute. assistance last year. there are ramifications already in latin america. in mexico, a busy shelter for migrants has been left without a doctor. it goes on to list many other items. let's go to mike in philadelphia, pennsylvania, and our line for independence. good morning. caller: hey, good morning. host: do you support or oppose? caller: i completely oppose elon

musk. i find his presence to be noxious and antithetical to the constitutional experiment. i watch this show pretty frequently. i find it pretty foolish when i hear people call in and try to cheer on what this guy is doing with usaid with his little goons because $64 million is a drop in the bucket. elon musk between spacex and tesla has received nearly $15 billion from the american taxpayer over the course of the last decade. we have pretty much nothing to show for it. his companies have basically put really valuable things in a headlock. he has failed to deliver anything that actually benefits the american people in any way, you know, and he basically is on

a trip. both he and trump are making the rest of the world pay for their terrible relationships with their fathers. host: your line is breaking up, like, so we will go to carmen in florida on ever line for democrats. good morning. caller: thank you, kimberly, for taking my call. although i have been on hold at hearing 50 more things that gets me riled up this morning. let me try to get this straight. i want to focus on the word trust. the reason i say that is because i posed it for a simple reason. i have no problem with musk. i have been complaining about corruption since i was 20 years old. i am 66 and retired in florida now. i am still complaining about corruption. i ask the people on c-span listening now about the word trust. do you really trust a really

super wealthy man and corporations that they are going to do the right thing and trickle down the money to the american public and help us? the reason i say that is they keep complaining about democrats. i don't know what that is all about. the blame game back, back-and-forth. it is getting us nowhere. it does not help the situation. my thing to c-span viewers is, what do you think is going to happen with the extra money they are saving? there is a gentleman that was on recently. trickle-down economics did not work. corporations and business took the money, so backstock to make their corporations bigger. they trickled down a little bit to make you satisfied a little bit, but the majority and the bulk of the money went to that. the same thing is going to happen here. they are going to find all the ways of saving money.

we have children dying around the world right now. you cannot just stop the whole thing. i have no problem with elon musk taking his 25, 15 little guys, going in front of congress, getting vetted, and going through the process to my getting in there, and cleaning it up. what they are doing is draining the swamp. they are draining the swamp for what reason. what i want to know is if you can bring an episode on it, what is the money -- where is the money going to go? what is the plan? what is this all about? because i believe this is all about saving money, showing american people we got this in the back and we will get big trillion dollar cuts to the super wealthy. that is the plan right now until someone will tell me different. host: do you support or oppose these efforts? caller: i oppose it.

i oppose it in the form and process and the way they are doing it. i don't oppose cleaning up corruption. democrats have been fighting against corruption for i don't know how long. you have people on this station that come on and say these things and if they would just look at the truth and the records, every time republicans got in power, they jacked up that deficit, and every time democrats got in power, they try to knock it back down to be safer financially. that is the truth. there is nothing. i don't care if you are watching newsmax and some of these other stations. they are lying to you. the truth is that republicans, they voted on a lot of these corruptions that musk is cleaning now. all within congress, they voted this stuff. host: let's go to our republican line with jan in florida. good morning, jan. caller: hi.

i agree. first of all, our country is so corrupt, it is disgusting for either party. i don't know that i exactly agree with elon musk being in there doing what he is doing, but i am more disgusted with both sides, the democrats and the republicans why they have not gotten off their cans and taken hold of this. and they tried to go through stuff and check it out. they are just as guilty. they are more so guilty that what this president is -- host: i am sorry. to be clear when you say you are upset with democrats and republicans for not getting a hold of this commode what are you talking about? caller: about what elon musk is in there doing. it should have been done by a true auditor outside of these government employees, but i don't know if he has called an auditor.

the democrats are protesting against this man because he is a billionaire. that is all you here. he is a billionaire. he is a very smart man, but what is going on may not have been the acrid way to have addressed the issue of trying to save in this government the excess spendings. it is very disgusting what has been pointed out i do not believe for one moment that our president is wanting to cut off all the aid for our little babies and stuff. and a lot of other people in need of food, etc., for help. i don't believe that. he is too much of a caring president. i believe my heart and it should not be done so. if he has done it totally, which i understand he hasn't, but i pray not he has, but something has to be done. and apparently our own senate and house does not want to get

this duty done. they have money to do this for years to clean up and if this man can go in and get it cleaned up, good like, but i think the way it was addressed -- but all of this was already told by this president long before election day, that this was exactly what was going to happen, and if they did not like it, they should have voted against him. and maybe some dead and some didn't. that is not the point. but this government does need a lot of housecleaning. that is what i want to say. there is too much money going out of our own country for a lot of things that should have never been. you know, drag queens and things like that that money was spent on. no. absolutely not. we have too many homeless,

mentally ill. there is just way too much in our own country that needs to be taken care of first. we should be first. host: ok. edward is in ohio i never line for independents. good morning, edward. caller: thank you for taking my call. listen. i absolutely oppose elon musk's doge efforts. i like the name doggy better. donald trump is a big liar. during the campaign, he absolutely denied any knowledge of project 2025. but here we have elon musk executing the playbook here. any republican in congress, whether the senate warehouse that supports this really i think is presiding over the destruction of democracy in our country. i think it is disgusting, and i think it is dangerous. and the other thing is what does

elon musk really want? ask yourself that. what does he really want? t is the richest man in the world. he is running around the country scaring the hell out of people. that a group of 25 kids running around, hunting through computer systems. what does he really, really want? that is another question. thanks. host: steve is in texas on our line for republicans. good morning, steve. caller: yes ma'am. i sure hope i am a christian conservative antirepublican. i sure hope you give me the time that you have been giving these democrats that have been bashing everything. there was an election here back on november 5. there was an election, and the american people clearly voted. they want to find out where all of this corruption and taxpayer money is at. 80% of the american people want

to track where this money is coming from. that is what musk is doing. all of these left-wing lunatics over here, powers has been one of the people giving our money, billions of dollars to stupid things overseas about the sex change operations overseas and in legal money, and he has been funding this money overseas. i know you want to cut me off because i am a christian conservative and you will have somebody else cut me off. the man from wisconsin a wireless go, the republican that called in, he hit the nail on the head. he hit the nail on the head right there. because y'all won't cover that you will read from some liberal like the hill. that is a liberal newspaper. you will read them, and there will be a hearing on this i think next week on fairbury 13

if i'm not mistaken, and they will be a hearing up on the house about the corruption of the usaid where all of our billions and billions of taxpayer money has been going for a long time to left-wing lunatics that have been running it. and this stupid d.e.i. mess. and i know you don't want to hear that because you are a left-winger yourself. you want to cut me off. you want to cut me off right now because you want to have someone else cut me off. but you all have been doing this all week long, just like the wisconsin man that called in. host: can i ask you, of the moves that elon musk made so far, which of the cuts in particular are you most in support of? caller: all of this silly money, the usaid did that is going

overseas for sex change operations have been diverted to mass murdering killers. all of this money. there is a list. karoline leavitt read it off the other day. she read part of it. the list is so long, but there will be a hearing on it coming up february 13 on the hill. the washington examiner exposed it too. you don't read from no conservative newspapers. you always pick the liberal newspapers. and you let these left-wing lunatics call and and let them talk and talk and talk as long as they run trump down, you are all for it. you are all for that. host: i do think we have your idea, steve. let's go to kevin in michigan on our land for independents. good morning, kevin. caller: good morning. first of all, i am proud to be

as the previous caller has labeled me so lovely as a left-wing lunatic even though i called in on the independent line. everyone, it doesn't matter where you are from, no matter what you look like, no matter what you religion because it is sunday, they have to make sure they are identified most of your colors as a question american or christian nationalist conservative. that has nothing to do with anything. the question that you put to the viewers, do we agree with what elon musk is doing? so to make that point, absolutely not. it is out of control. now here is my take on it. it has nothing to do with weeding out corruption. it has to do with what are they going to do with that information? as the previous caller said. what a smokescreen.

someone in charge who is loaded and you cannot say why i put him in there because he will take the money. he has the most money. it is almost laughable to show the ignorance on both sides of what is really going on. here is my take. i am an accountant by trade. i do not like the fact that the private unsanctioned because congress still has the power on my checks when i got up this morning and the government is still intact. we do have a thing called the constitution. why is this person in charge? trump is very smart. trump, yes, did win the election. we are aware there is an election. one of my clients said last week, i know how you voted, were you surprised? no, i was not surprised. did i like it? no. back to the issue you put forward to us this morning, in

the ruling of the judge who blocked it, they said to immediately cease and destroy any information they have obtained. now, the tech boys and women they have that information somewhere, ok? it is like jerry will disregard it. no, you can't do that. as far as the hearings and stuff, we know how it is going to go forget if you -- to go. if you flip the coin, let's say the democrats are in charge. and one last point. i think you guys are not biased. i think you present all sides. actually, two points. where is this 80%? i had a professor asked me one

time in a political science class and she said something very important that i learned decades ago. what is the source? ok, i want to know. everyone is calling in on the right saying 80%. where did that 80% figure come from? to summarize, no. it is a pretext. it is a stopgap forget that is all it is. trump is smart. host: i think we got your idea, kevin. i want to go to some of the comments from social media and text messages. this text message from marie in florida who says oppose must in every way. november his name being on the 2024 election ballo another dictator. timbo in arkansas, yes, i opposed elon musk and hi efforts to finfraud and abuse in the government. what we have a smokescreen

fighting what trump is going to do. add another $10 trillion to the national debt and leave america as a wasteland. that is it america, don't before. tommy in sarasota, florida, says of democrats love waste, fraud, and abuse of taxpayer money, maybe they should have their taxes raised to pay for it. then i am not sure who this came from, please make sure you include your name and where you are writing in from when you text us. i am really tired of republicans and their willful ignorance. i would remind all of you that we had inspector generals and bus department but trump fired them all. and we have something called the government accounting office. we don't need elon or doge. wake up, you are being scaed. sam from salem, new jersey, says i believe there is waste i government but this is not the right way to go about getting rid of it. must has conflict of interest and this seems more like a mission of retribution instead of one of saving money. if this was about money, we

would not be spending so much taxpayer money, millions of dollars, to send trump to mar-a-lago and the super bowl. bruce and haskins, ohio, totally support doge and elon musk. it is great seeing how a real administration works hard for us citizens. now we see the reason we are so deep in national debt. back to your calls. paulette is in madison, wisconsin, on our land for democrats. good morning, paula. caller: hi. good morning. host: you support or oppose elon musk's doge efforts? caller: i opposed doge -- i oppose doge. and i wanted to point out that donald trump has -- he misled his followers. i believe they had no idea that elon musk would be put in that type of position and doing what

he is doing. he has not been cleared of security. this is outlandish. you have to really look at it. i don't even know if donald trump is the president as he was before. he seems like he wants to be a developer. he throws out these shiny balls saying this shiny ball, we will take over gaza. what? what common sense is that? clearly he does not have the american people in his heart to do right for the american people while the grocery bills are going up higher during all of this calamity that is going on.

it is despicable, and he should be ashamed. and to the caller from texas, there are many people that live in america. he is not the only person america represents. i don't know why people don't get it, that there are a lot of different people here in america. he is a christian. hopefully someday we will all learn to live together. but you know, there is a lot of problems. i am completely against elon musk. he needs to go. and especially with his salute. host: ok. patrick is in pittsburgh, pennsylvania, on our line for republicans. good morning, patrick. caller: you know, i at the

disinformation, not only the information you are articulating, which has nothing but left-wing talking you are not even representing the basic facts. our nation is $37 trillion in debt. the debt is so high we are running out of the capacity just to produce enough taxes just to service it. the absurdity of this news organization, of left-wing news organizations that malign this marvelous man with $500 million. he could have sat. he could have sat on his money. he could have utilized every experience imaginable, but he really cares about the united states. his reverence for the constitution is unprecedented. i have been on this show. i have been on c-span and this show so many times.

and i can tell you functionally we are on the precipice of an economic implosion, which we are -- which he is trying to prevent. you just don't know what you are talking about. within one year, you will be able to purchase your own humanoid robot a thousand times easier. why would you assault a brilliant soul who is like the combination of leonardo da vinci and einstein? so obscene what we are which in that's what we are witnessing, this appalling exercise. you don't deserve him. you don't deserve someone that is this committed to the constitution of the united states and the framework. it is marvelous he is from another country. he comes from another country. his reverence is a thousand times more than any one of any of these democratic news organizations. by the way, you would literally

hang up in a new york second if a person called into this news organization, identified themselves as an independent, and announced that he lied that he is an independent and is an alternate left-wing man. you need to have experts like myself, and here is what is going to happen. as an intellectual specialist, the failure to come together about the immigration issue is going to fundamentally change the very paradigm of america because this is americans who are registered americans. the jobs they are going to be eliminating, there will not be any illegal immigrants thing able to provide work when the humanoid robots are literally right around the corner. host: ok. next up is louis in new jersey on our line for independents. good morning.

caller: good morning. the only thing i have to say is that there has been a list of the wasteful spending. you guys refused to put it up. and the reason all of these democrats are against it is because they have not seen the list because they watched cnn and msnbc. all right? $20 million in afghanistan to start a sesame street show. thousands and thousands of dollars around the world that is just total wasteful. trump will not cut off humanitarian aid. you should not even put that up there. host: i want you to finish your point but to add some numbers to what you are saying, a foundation is tracking what they call annual improper federal payments, and they say it

improper -- this is not specifically for usaid but throughout the federal government, saying improper payments have grown sharply over the last few decades from $35 billion or 1.6% of outlays in 2003 to $236 billion or 3.8% of outlays in 2023. the amount of improper payments reached a high of $281 billion in 2021 at the peak of the pandemic. such payments, going on just to give examples of what these improper payments are, and though the level of improper payments has waned over the last three years with the gradual expression of many provisions related to the pandemic, improper payments remain high, so those are just some numbers specifically for usaid, which is what i believe you are talking about, but improper payments of the federal government, so please go ahead. caller: there is so much corruption, so much kickbacks. you have $4 million gone to

china. it is on both sides. they all know what is going on and 10,000 people working for this usaid whatever it is. 10,000? what are these folks making? host: ok. let's hear from michelle in montgomery, alabama, on our line for democrats. good morning. caller: good morning, and thank you for having me. i have listened to all the callers, and as americans, we are definitely all over the place. i heard the conservative saying liberals do not read their news, but they don't read liberal news either, so we had definitely divided, but the question is, do i support elon musk and doge?

no, i do not. no, i do not support him, and the u.s. treasury with our information. that is like inviting a foreigner into your own personal home and they can see everything that you have two make sure you are spending your money the way your money should be spent. now, that is problematic. because what does he need with our information? and none of us can say what he has or doesn't have. it is interesting that the house was shut down -- the house would shut down a review of elon musk. why wouldn't you want him to come in and explained what he is doing? what is the agenda? what is the objective? is it really for the abuse and

the fraud? i will make another point and concede to listen to the other callers. elon musk is the richest man in the world. in the entire world. and he has no program to feed no one hungry, to do anything for anyone humanitarian, so why come to america? we are one of the richest countries in the world, and we have the ability to help others, so why come to america, and why would you come to our treasury system if we are the richest country in the world? we have checks and balances. and yes, americans voted for trump, but we did not vote for this. host: ok. we will get to one more caller before we have to end our second. kelly is in dallas, texas, on our line for republicans. good morning. caller: yes, thank you for

taking my call. i just want to put this out here if you can get your head around this. doge, the department of government efficiency, was actually put in place by obama. of course, he never did anything with it. i am sure it was a brilliant idea and they thought it sounds good, mr. obama. yes. actually put doge in place. i am glad we are finally getting to the bottom of some of this reckless spending. yes, we voted trump in to do exactly what he is doing right now. host: what do you mean that the obama administration put doge into place? i am not clear what you mean by that. caller: they actually coined this agency, this department of government efficiency was actually born, birthed by the obama administration. of course come with a did not put anybody in there or did anything with it. are you following me? they started this agency that

trump is now using. i am sure somebody very smart politically told trump that, hey, there is this doge department sitting here not doing anything, but it would be department that would look good going over the books. i'm glad they're doing it. usaid and these other left -- i heard a senator the other day, i wish i heard his name, but they interviewed him. he was saying, you know, the senate and the congress, they've been trying to get to the bottom of usa for a long time, because there was no transparency. this is like a slush fund, and every time they asked where the money was going, they got the hoohah. host: i believe i found what you are referencing, from the archives, from the obama administration, executive disorder, this is from june 13,

2011, an effective and accountable government. this is the obama administration saying in order to cut waste, streamline government operations, and reinforce the performance of management, the administration has ordered, he goes on to set out, among other things, and accountable government initiative, and then instituting a federal chief performance officer and the office of the it would be providing guidance agencies to identify areas of program overlap within and across agencies, so proposing consolidations and reductions to address those inefficiencies. this is what you are referencing? caller:. ys. host: ok, thank you. caller: generally, yes. host: ok, i just wanted to make sure you finished your point

that was that it? caller: yes, thank you. host: thank you, and thanks to everyone who called in for this assignment. up next, we continue to look at the trump administration's efforts to cut the size of government. tom schatz will be our guest. he's president of the group citizens against government waste. later, we will talk with skye perryman, of the group democracy forward, about countering the trump administration's actions. we will be right back. ♪ > tonight on c-span's "q&a," ex-convict, award-winning poet, and yellow school graduate -- yale law school graduate reginald duane betts talks about his book and the work done by freedom of reads.

reginald: you know, he might have been under no illusion, but he did say i can get something out of it if i try, and i think this was a testament not just that i got something out of a but that i came home to a world where it might feel overwhelming, it might feel like it is absolutely hard to make a way when we have heard somebody in the past, but i also came to a world that it has radically changed and shifted and created more and more opportunities for people to reflect on the ways in which they change and to be welcomed back into what i like to think, as king said, the beloved community. >> reginald dwayne betts tonight on c-span's "q&a." you can listen to all of our podcasts on the free c-span now app. >> this week on the c-span networks, the house and senate

are in session. the house will consider legislation establishing new penalties for evading u.s. border patrol agent in car chases. the senate continues voting on president trump's cabinet nominees, including tulsi gabbard as director of national intelligence and robert f. kennedy, jr. as health and human services secretary. the chair of the federal reserve, jerome powell, will give the semiannual monetary policy report for two committees, first on tuesday before the senate banking committee and then on wednesday before the house financial services committee. also, c-span continues our comprehensive coverage of confirmation hearings were for president elect trump's cabinet nominees. lori travis-deremer, and nomine for secretary of labor, and linda mcmahon, who is the nominee for secretary of education. also the senate judiciary

committee will vote on the nomination of cash patel for director of fbi. watch live on c-span networks or on c-span outcome our free mobile video app. head over to c-span.org for schedule information or to watch live or on-demand any time. c-span, democracy unfiltered. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. for more on the trumpet administration's efforts to reduce the size of government, i'm joined by thomas betts, the -- thomas schatz, president of citizens against government waste. can you tell us about what you do and how you are funded? guest: it was founded following the great commission under president ronald reagan. it was a conference review of the federal government. i joined citizens against government waste in 1986,

working from the senator from new york, funded by taxpayers, associations, corporations, anyone who wants to cut wasteful spending. host: can you talk about the great commission? and as a previous caller mentioned, the obama administration attempted to rain and government waste. guest: the grace commission by attorneys and accountants, about 2000 volunteers spent a year and a half reviewing the functions of the federal government. they formed in 24 billion dollars over three years. after the grace commission report, president reagan saved

about 6% of the total. over time, the grace commission recommendations of the proposals we have made added up to 2.4 trillion dollars in savings. since the organization was founded. host: this week, you testified before the house oversight committee during a hearing they had on rightsizing the federal government, which is something your organization is obviously focused on. why is this needed in general, the idea of rightsizing the federal government? guest: i was watching some of the questions and comments before i came on, and people have an idea of how much money is being wasted to one of the problems is nobody really knows. improper payments is a great example. 230 $6 billion in 2023 by $2.7 trillion since 2000 three. four pieces of legislation plus a separate bill on fraud, yet

the numbers keep going up, or at least are now steady around 230 $6 billion. so if you're talking about elon musk's $2 trillion, that is less than 10% and a year. the problem is nobody knows how that money is being paid out, thus the reason why they are looking at the payments system. why are these payments being made, who are they going to? these are people who are eligible, they overpaid. this is not anything that would happen in the private sector. nobody would pay bills they did not need to pay, and that is essentially what is happening here. host: what do you think of the way this is happening? most people that are complaining about this are complaining about the process more than the actions themselves. president trump put in elon musk and d.o.g.e. behind this effort. do you feel confident in the way this is being rolled out? guest: anyone who thinks this was not going to happen was not paying attention. he was very clear during the campaign, president trump, about

putting elon musk in charge of government inefficiency. they elected him, so that is what he's doing. there may be limits in terms of what they can accomplish, but somebody needs to do something. i'm not saying they should do it illegally. this is the executive branch, the white house, and the group of people they have asked to look at how money is being spent. in principle, that makes perfect sense, and, again, you have $236 billion of money going out of the federal government, supplemental security income, medicare, medicaid, earned income tax credits, those are four of the top six areas of improper payments. medicare money should be going to medicare beneficiaries. host: you said that this should all be done within the law. there have been several lawsuits against many of these actions. do you think they have been within the confines of the law? guest: well, again, i think they are testing some of those limits, and i think they may be

tested over times -- changed over time, but to say don't look at how we are spending the money is not the same thing as saying they are doing it illegally. they can look at it, and they can determine or help determine whether that system is working. federal systems are incompatible with each other, and i think the easiest thing to point out is there is no single place that anyone can go to find out exactly how each dollar is being spent in the federal government. there are states that have information online, ohio, arizona, and others, and that was part of what was discussed at the hearing, the federal government does not have that. why not? host: there was a lot of controversy, including lawsuits come about elon musk in particular taking over the federal payment system. i wonder if you think that this falls within the realm of d.o.g.e.'s individual mandate? guest: when the grace commission

did it work, the executive order establishing the grace commission asked for required cooperation between the employees and the grace commission. it is essentially the same process. this report inside of the white house. they are part of the executive branch. they should be able to look at how money is being spent. they are not running the system. they are not revealing the information. they can't do that. but they should know how that is being done, because if they were doing this correctly, they will not have to look at it. that is also part of the job of congress, to make sure that money is not being wasted, the $236 billion or $2.7 trillion, and they have four to try to stop this from happening. so someone needs to look at it, and someone needs to explain why it is not working and make suggestions about how to fix it. they will not go in and just take it over. host: you have mentioned this

grace commission was a private entity is government spending, effectively also d.o.g.e., a private institute looking at government spending. what benefits do you think there is, using the private sector for this as opposed to,, say, the inspector general or any entities within the federal government? guest: well, the grace commission relied on a lot of those recommendations. a lot of what d.o.g.e. is doing is not new. one had an out of control, had not done what i had intended to do. people talk about getting rid of the department of education, essentially moving that money back to the state since ronald reagan, a recommendation of hours, and a lot of the other proposals are simply things that have been out there, but the minute that somebody comes in and says, we are going to make that same proposal and do

something about it, then everybody gets upset. but there is nothing new about what they are trying to do. it's that people who think it is going to affect their job, is going to affect the outcomes, it's going to affect something that they want, simply is not true. if you take it into a broader perspective, the more money that can be saved, the more money that can be spent efficiently and help people who truly need help, which is something we have asked congress to figure out for years, but they think spending money is the answer. host: you were at that hearing earlier on wednesday, when house democrats tried and failed to subpoena mosque totestify about--- musk to testify about t d.o.g.e. bang [video clip] rep. connoly: who is this unelected billionaire that he

can fire people, offer them early retirement, and that have sweeping changes to agencies without any congressional review, oversight, or concurrence? therefore, mr. chairman, given his prominence and his importance, i move that the committee subpoena elon musk to come to court as a witness at the earliest possible moment. >> there has been a motion and second. the motion is not debatable. >> why is it not debatable? mr. chair, i would strike the last. chair comer: hold on. >> mr. chairman, why don't we want to debate elon musk coming in at talking about how he has enriched himself? >> mr. chairman?

chair comer: the chair recognizes fox. the notion is not debatable. >> point of order. chair comber state your point. >> mr. chairman, i think it is outrageous that this committee will not even entertain chair comber: that is not a point of order. [overlapping conversations] >> out of order. out of order. this is out of order. demagoguery. >> yes, let's have order in this country. chair comer: you are out of order, you know you are out of order. you know the rules of this committee. host: you were there to see this play out in real time. i like to get your action to that but also do you think that

must should appear before congress to explain how he is going about this? guest: before the hearing, i said to my colleagues, they are probably going to go after elon musk. that was in the first five minutes of the hearing. i think there was some constructive outcome of this discussion, but yes, i think it's up to the president and the executive branch to determine who come before congress. they have not even requested that he show up in the first place. usually it starts with a letter, not a subpoena, so if they had wanted elon musk, they should have worked with the majority and said, let's set a hearing date. let's have people from d.o.g.e. come in. and they started as a confrontation. i think that was not the way to get some cooperation from the administration. president trump has that elon is happy to talk. committees want him to come and

talk about what they are doing good on the other hand, they just started, so it might be more beneficial to have that happen at a later date, after some work has been done. i think they are still feeling their. . way through it is perfectly legitimate. for anyone to request a subpoena in a committee, but that is not the way they usually start. host: we will be taking your calls. our line for republicans is (202) 748-8001. for democrats (202) 748-8000. and for independents, (202) 748-8002. before we get to the callers, i want to bring up more data on government spending, looking specifically at mandatory spending and interest cost growth and how it squeezing discretionary programs as a percentage of federal spending. going back to 1974, total federal spending only made of

18% of gdp, and if you look here, the discretionary spending was about half of that. the mandatory spending roughly the other half. in 2024, discretionary spending was all the way down to 27%, with mandatory spending 60%, net interest on the national debt, 13%. projected that by 2054, not only will our total spending equal 27% of our gdp, just 18% of that will be discretionary, and the rest mandatory spending. most of the federal spending right now is in mandatory programs like social security, medicare, interest on the national debt, while the efforts of d.o.g.e. are focused on the discretionary programs, because president trump has that he's going to protect. social security and medicare how much do you think d.o.g.e. can really do, given this dynamic? guest: well, if the federal

government spent money more efficiently come it and help the economy grow. people, i hope, understand that those programs are paid into by current federal workers, these are current workers across the country, and that is the money that goes into those funds. so it would be helpful if there was real and proper payments, medicare, medicaid, supplemental social security, the top six of improper payments. they should start their, and other changes are considered, they will have to wait at a later time. the president is not talking about that. it would make some sense to consider over time increasing the retirement age, which, again, would ease the burden on

both of those programs. it is something to consider. at the numbers point out, we will be squeezed out of the programs that most people seem to think the government should be engaged with. but may be some of those should be turned over to the state. maybe we don't need some of those at all. interest on the debt, by the way, is larger than defense spending. when your family spend that much on interest on credit cards and debt, you are in trouble. host: let's get to your calls. pleasant beach, new jersey on our line for democrats. good morning. caller: i'm calling with my partner. we wanted to know, when should americans start expecting to see the benefit of these audits, in terms of their paycheck and the tax cuts? and we also wanted to know, or any of these institutions or

ngo's looking at government spending using usaaspending.gov, and if they are, why would they need to go into agencies and shrink this to be a very impartial process? guest: we wish it were nonpartisan and bipartisan, but after sitting for that hearing, i can tell you it is not that easy to eliminate wasteful spending in washington. most times when waste is discovered or inefficiency is discovered, the answer on capitol hill is basically to spend more money to solve the problem. so if that is how people who are in charge of these programs think they can be fixed, than that is how you get a lot of the overlap across agencies. host: robert is in new york on our line for republicans. good morning. caller: how about that? caller:good morning. first time caller.

the associated press is saying, that if you never said they received $8 million through democrats. so it is very easy to see which way you swing. i wish you would put more republicans on, too, because you handpick democrats, and then democrats call in as independents, ok, things. like that but it would be nice if you put some republican stations on, maybe fox news, maybe newsmax. guest: do you have a question for mr. schatz? caller: i do not. i can't believe every time you fact-check somebody, you go to a liberal station or a liberal publication. host: we are going to get to people who have questions for us. michelle on our line for independents. go ahead, michelle.

caller: i was curious, if they go to the voucher system, will people without children get them? people who don't have children pay the school tax, and we would like to know if maybe we could get a voucher, and we could say, to school or to a target? as you know, multifamily units pay less in property taxes than residential, so we have at issue here. but i would like a voucher come i would like to say to go to public or charter, and every time i asked a question, i get pooh-poohed off. is it only people with children who get a voucher? why is that? thank you. guest: talking about public education and school choice issues, a lot of states are looking at provide vouchers for families. it has always been for k-12. it has never been for college. it's an interesting idea, but

that would be more cost to taxpayers over time. host: we have a question from x. what is your opinion of the firing of the inspectors general? guest: every president has that option. some presidents have done that, and some have not come of it is entirely up to the discretion of the president to do that. they are not government employees. host: loretta is in cleveland, ohio on our line for democrats. good morning. caller: good morning. my concern is more with the results of what elon musk is doing. i'm looking at unemployment, i'm looking at homelessness, i'm looking at inflation, i'm looking at prices, and all of the stuff that trump said, out of all of what he had said, he

had never said where the money is going. so, i mean, we need a declaration saying that all of the money is going toward paying down the debt, which is why these leading everybody to believe, but i don't think that's the way it's going to go. i think that they are getting ready to run a heist on america. they are getting ready to set up all the millionaires and billionaires, and they cutting all the programs that people have paid their taxes into. something about this is illegal. i'm sorry. please help me here. thank you. guest: they've been there for about three weeks, i think three weeks on tuesday, so they are not necessarily going to produce results immediately. this is a large operation at the federal government level, and it will take some time to get those results. when you get to the debt, that

eliminates the deficit, and that is $2 trillion annually for the next 10 years, so they need to turn this around. i think they are starting now trying to get that done. host: sue in new jersey asks, what exactly is an improper payment? what is the criteria? is there a list kept of these payments come and how can we access it? guest: improper payments are overpayments, underpayments, payments that should not be made. that's the easiest way to describe them. most of them are overpayments, payments for people who are not eligible to receive the money. and that is on the government accountability website, and the details and the programs that are covered and examined are on those websites. host: i just looked at the government accountable to office website, and they have a report here from march of last year pointing out that the federal government made $236 billion in improper payments in the last fiscal year, and it breaks down where those payments went, if

they were reported by 14 agencies across 71 programs, and 74% of those areas were overpayments, as you decide. guest: and by the way, that is not the whole government, because there are 400 agencies. and they initially did not even count medicare part c, medicare advantage, which is pretty low, but 230 $6 billion, but is not everything. host: dan is in ohio on our line for republicans. good morning. caller: ok, so have we ever had a government out of it? and when the democrats say, you know, government officials should be doing this, government officials have failed to do this for decades. the fact is, the democrats don't want transparency. what they want is for people to not be able to see how they are spending their tax money. the fact is some of the

democrats go around saying we need more money for roads and bridges, but instead, they are spending money for -- for, um, sex changes in guatemala. they are spending money for politico and other left-wing media groups, millions of dollars of my taxpayer money are going to left-wing media groups. so we need to get a handle on this. we need to get a grip. we want transparency. have we ever had a government audit? host: i think we get the idea. regarding sex changes in guatemala, that is not -- it is labeled by the "washington post" fact checkers as misleading. it suggests that usaid arrange for sex changes. the three-year grant to lambda

association, a guatemala lgbtqia+ organization, to strengthen trans let organizations to deliver a from a health care, advocate for improved quality, and access to service, and provide economic empowerment opportunities. officials could not be reached by the washington post, but a former senior usaid official who work on these programs, the agency said i regularly went to the hill and communicated on the record to know that the usaid gender affirming care does not include surgeries, hormone replacement therapies, or any other medical information. the couple of other folks have mentioned it. but if you want to respond to the caller's points. guest: on audits, citizens against government waste suggested that the chief financial officers council be appointed to agencies, and there have been on his. the only places where the audits have not been 100% clean is the

pentagon. only the marines have had a clean audit. every other agency has had a clean audit. it does not change how much is being spent. it does not provide them as i mentioned earlier, one place where tax killers -- taxpayers go to find out what is going on with that money. host: a new article came out yesterday and politico. musk says treasury d.o.g.e. instituting to all government payments. it will have a new categorization code and rationale for the money spent. elon musk said saturday with the treasury department and his department government efficiency have reached an agreement, change in reporting requirements for all outgoing government payments. the government payments will now have a payment categorization code for auditing purposes, he wrote on x, the social media site he runs -- he owns.

they are not applying any judgment to this rationale, but all payments must have one. musk added that the do not pay list of people or companies who do not -- you should not receive government money should be updated weekly if not daily. your thoughts on the strategy? guest: that sounds like a government and good management. we've always talked about the management piece of this. not exciting, but that is a perfect example of something that is not being done. i don't know how anyone could argue with that. if you don't have the rationale or the statutory authority to spend money, then it should not be spent. i don't know, again, why that does not make perfect sense. to address one of the earlier point, he's just going in there and taking the money and he's going to use it for his own purposes, this is exactly what needs to be done. the do not pay list, by the way, was also a problem during covid. they do not use it for a lot of the money that went out, and there were people who were

in eligible to receive funds who got the money because they just did not question it. host: paul is in new york city on our line for independents. good morning. caller: good morning. so, as you noted, this has been tried several times by different administrations. i remember al gore. many times this has been tried. . i wonder whether or not this effort of objection and wall street, which, by the way come are done it seems without any controversial government policy, whether immigration or education, transportation, telecommunications, whatever it is, it seems like somebody wants to sue and get lost in court and slope it down, so that basically the effort, it seems to become is obstruct them obstruct, and maybe there will be a change in the new administration. and then it becomes expedient for politicians to never follow through on cutting costs. so that is my question there.

my other question, i watched part of the hearing, and there was someone i think from kansas, and she said she was able to do this without any layoffs, that she worked with the legislature, etc. i don't know if you're familiar with the situation, but it sounds like you might be. and i'm wondering, you know, is that because the politics are more reasonable? and then finally, you know, here in new york, we've seen programs like education get a huge increase in spending, and the outcomes don't change them or they get sometimes worse. so if you could comment on that, that would be great, guys. thank you. guest: we are going backwards. i grew up without a department of education, and it's simpler than that. spending has gone up, that's the chart that shows the department of education in 1977. the objective to increase test scores, that did not happen.

the money should go to the classroom and not the bureaucracies. your question about governor reynolds from iowa, i sat next to her, so i know what she did. she had a does bang grew before doge -- d.o.g.e. group before d.o.g.e., and they were able to get these kinds of things done. in terms of what members of congress and say or don't say and the bureaucracy, yes, it is true, a a lot of federal agencies figure they can out last any attempt to reduce their power. host: how much do you think a congressional buy in is what dougie is doing? guest: 73% of the recommendations it required approval by congress. i know there's focus on the executive branch first to do what they can inside the agencies, which i think makes a lot of sense, and then after that, i know that the recommendations are due by july of next year, 2026.

that is where i think they will have more work together with congress, because a lot of those changes, you can eliminate -- you cannot eliminate the funding to the states without congress. you can make proposals. but if you measure by outcomes, you will not have the departments spending money the way to spending it. it would go to the states. . they would make it more efficient. we want our kids to be the most educated, but they are not. that is really come part of the one of the reasons, and the department of education is not getting results, just spending money. host: dave in orlando, florida asks, which is more important, republican waste or democratic waste? guest: everybody wastes money. there's no question. citizens against government waste tracks earmarks, spending every year. some years republicans spend more, some years democrats spend more. it's not a huge amount of money come about $23 billion on

average that we find each year. but that in turn encourages or incentivizes members to vote for these large spending bills in return for a few million dollars in their facing districts, so we think that has an adverse effect on trying to cut spending. host: mike is an illinois on our line from republicans. good morning. caller: good morning. i just think that all the ways that is being done, i think we need to trace back all those usaid payments and find out who they come back to, because i think the reason that congressmen are squealing so much is because the kickbacks that are coming back to them or to the groups they support is going to really expose the congressmen. and i think that is where we really need to go, because i think that is where we are going to get congress to sit down and shut up and quit wasting our money when people realize that not only is that money going to other countries, but it is coming back into the country for kickbacks for congressman. guest: i don't think there is

any evidence of kickbacks. certainly organizations that see money come of that support ideas that members of congress in support. and the programs that have been discussed both in that hearing and elsewhere, simply in some cases ideological, and some pieces because the biden administration gets less funding for the programs, maybe there is too much distressing loud and agencies, and congress needs to say, -- too much distressing allowed in agencies, and congress need to say, you don't need to do that. host: ervin on our line for democrats. caller: my name is ervin. i've been a democrat for 20 years. there've been a lot of changes in the government. especially the leader, donald trump, i'm not super fond of. for example, the desire for donald trump 2 -- host: in california on our line for independents.

good morning, william dash or rodney, i'm sorry. caller: rodney, i'm retired. i've been working with the federal government for now over 40 years. i see that dr. schatz is a knowledgeable person in relation to budget. my question is, i look at things from a national defense perspectives, so if you look at the oversight and get accountability part, how do you measure from that angle? i know you are not a federal, pentagon type person, but you are not accounting for. that element. guest: we are. 25% of savings came from the department of defense. we will have them i think on monday, another blog post with the joint site, which we have been writing for many years, a massive program that

unfortunately is not working as intended. so, believe me, we are interested in wasteful spending across every element of the federal government. host: we have another question for max from jd reading who asks, can you explain the legal basis for attempting to disband or restructure agencies like usaid without explicit congressional approval, considering these agencies were established by acts of congress? guest: there was some discretion with some agencies and others no discretion. congressman ro khanna asked me that question, and my answer was, i think they are testing the limits, but obviously they cannot do anything that is not within the constitutional boundaries of what they could do inside this group inside of the white house. host: there was quite a bit of back-and-forth in that hearing as well as elsewhere. how much congress can do. as this process is ongoing.

as you mentioned, this is very early in the process appeared what role do you think congress should be playing now in working with the d.o.g.e. group? guest: well, if congress had been doing their job, in our view, they would not need d.o.g.e. i don't say that facetiously. local governments have to balance their budgets. families have to balance their budgets. federal government has not done that and is not required to do that. whatever they're doing is drawing more attention to the problem inside of washington. to trillion dollar annual deficit, i talk about that often. of course that's what we care about. it impacts our children and grandchildren. it has an impact now because it is so large. if we had enough money, we would be able to finance a lot of the programs that people would like to have, but, again, how much money should be spent to get congress to address what congress wants to achieve? that is the question that should be asked by every member of congress. when we get that answer, we will

know how much we really need. host: in "the," about elon musk's d.o.g.e., giving the example, at the educational department, the tech billionaire's team has turned to artificial intelligence to hunt for potential.spending cuts . what potential risks does ai bring? guest: under the grace commission, there was not ai, and there was no social media. and both of those really change how this gets done. social media, you get both sides, of course, the lawn talking about how he's doing things and people yelling at him, unfortunately talking about his staff and doing nasty things to them, again, unfortunate. but ai is a tool that can help, like, for example, in medicine,

if you can find something that physicians cannot be able to find right away, they can find it faster. if someone says congress want to spend money to achieve this objective, as i've mentioned several times, what is the best way to do that? one quick example, broadband. everybody wants to be connected to the internet, or at least the people that do want to be connected, many of them have not been connected. there were 133 federal broadband programs across 15 agencies, and there's a program called e, broadband equity access and deployment. $42 billion in infrastructure bill passed in 2021 that has yet to get start running, because of all the regulation and delays. we want people to be connected. you need a handful administered by a few agencies, cooperating with each other to get that done. it is fairly simple, but that's not how it has happened. host: we go to kc, pennsylvania

on our line for independents. good morning, jim. caller: good morning. hello? host: yes, you have a question for mr. schatz? caller: yes, elon musk is making me so nervous, how he's doing his business for us. anybody can do what he's doing, tearing things apart, instead of using a scalpel and pulling out the vent like peace. of course people take advantage of that. i feel like the people who needed are losing out, and i would like to know how elon musk has the power to do what he can do, although i understand the

president for that power. we do, of course, listen to him and sometimes disagree, and this is what i'm saying, i disagree with all the power elon musk has , and he's making me very nervous, like many other people. i made retired, disabled vet, and maybe he thinks i'm on a different path than that noise. i would like to thank you for listening to me. i always wanted to say this, i did not say it right away, first time caller. big fan. thank you for your time. i hope this made some sense. [laughs] guest: thank you for your service. no one can find out where the money has been wasted, unless they examine everything. so by looking at overall

payments, it will help to determine how the payments are being made and what might be wasted. and, again, we mentioned a little while ago, that he went and cooperated and said hey, we get information about every payment. we need to update it so people are not getting money for which they are not eligible. that is easier to see where that money is going, then they can figure out what should not be paid and made a dent in that $236 billion of improper payments. host: ken is in north carolina honor line for independents. good morning. caller: hi, how are you this morning? host: good, thanks. caller: i would like to ask mr. schatz, does he know that in the declaration of independence, where it ever said that federal workers should be unionized? i'd also like to know why teachers in new york, california, and other places think the department of education have to really, i

mean, it is almost an act of congress, it is like pulling teeth to get them to be fired. and why do they have so much power? and does he know that since 1977, since the department of education was formed, our grades -- different countries have gone significantly down. i'm 60 years cold. i'm a vet. my family has been in the military for 100 years. anyway, our educational system has poured all of this money into it, yet we had some of the lowest scores in the world compared to other countries. so why is all this money being wasted? and yet, you know, it's democrats, a lot of a come his republicans, too, everybody has their hand in the cookie jar. it's pathetic that our country has all this money come and we cannot even educate our kids. i would like to see what he has to say about that. guest: i agree.

i mention i was brought up without a department of education. money should go to the states. it's not like the 1960's, where there were states that were not educating their children. now, every one of those states is concerned about educating their kids, competing with others. thank you for your service, by the way. and getting rid of the department of education is not eliminating every program. it is figuring out which ones are working effectively, so we can be distributed, working with other agencies, or back to the states. so i think one of the most horrible ideas ever come on to everybody who has paid off their loans -- ideas ever, debt forgiveness, unfair to everyone who has paid off their loans. it's both sides. they need to figure out what to do with that money. they need to figure out how to

do this effectively commanded it's not doing it the way they are doing it now host:. -- now. host: ken also asked about the unitization of federal workers. guest: i guess the founders probably did not think about that, that's a good point. but it is where it is now. not every agency has unionized workers. teachers unions are local, not federal. i think the idea of putting money into the classroom, giving parents more control of where they'd like to send their children, look, school choice is most popular in areas where schools are poorly performing. they want their schools to succeed. i think that is something else that needs to be looked at. host: that's all the time we have for our segment. thank you to thomas schatz, presidents of citizens against government waste. we appreciate your time. guest: thank you, kimberly. host: later on, we will look at the litigation of trump

administration actions and how the litigation is ramping up. we will have a conversation with skye perryman, president and ceo of the advocacy group democracy forward about the legal strategy around that. first, we will have open forum. you can start calling and now on any political or public policy topic on your mind this morning. we will be right back. ♪ >> tonight on c-span's "q&a," ex-convict, award-winning poet, and yale law school graduate reginald dwayne betts is our guest, he talks about the book and worked on by freedom reads, an organization he founded that builds libraries in prisons. reginald: you know, under no

illusion that sending me to prison would help, but he did say i could get something out of it if i try to come and i think that this is a testament not just that i got something out of it but that i came home to a world where it might feel overwhelming, it might feel like it is absolutely hard to make a way when you have hurt somebody in the past, but i also came to a world that has radically changed and shifted and treated more and more opportunities for people to reflect on the ways in which they have and to be welcomed back into what i like to say come as king stated, the beloved community. >> you can listen to "q&a" and all of our podcasts on our free c-span now app. >> this week on the c-span networks, the house and senate are in session. the house will consider

legislation establishing new penalties for evading u.s. border patrol agent's in car chases. the senate continues voting on president trump's cabinet nominees, including tulsi gabbard as the director of national intelligence and robert f. kennedy, jr. as health and human services secretary. the chair of the federal reserve, jerome powell, will give the semiannual monetary policy report before two committees, first on tuesday before the senate banking committee, and then on wednesday before the house financial services committee. also, c-span continues our comprehensive coverage of confirmation hearings for president-elect trump's cabinet nominees. the senate health, education, labor and pensions committee will hold hearings for two cabinet nominees. on wednesday, former oregon republican congresswoman lori chavez-deremer, the nominee for secretary of labor appeared on thursday, former businesswoman linda mcmahon, who is the nominee for secretary of education. also on thursday, the senate judiciary committee will vote on the nomination of kash patel for

director of the fbi. watch live on the c-span networks or on c-span now, our free mobile video app. also, head to c-span.org for scheduling information or to watch live or on-demand any time. c-span, democracy unfiltered. ♪ >> democracy. it is not just an idea, it's a process, a process shaped by leaders, elected to the highest office, and entrusted to a select few regarding its basic principles. as where debates unfold, decisions are made, and the nation's course is charted. democracy in real time. this is your government at work. this is c-span, giving you your democracy unfiltered. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. we have open forum, so we can hear your thoughts on public

policy, news that's on your mind this morning could our line for republicans, (202) 748-8001. for democrats, (202) 748-8000. and for independents, (202) 748-8002. we've been talking also this morning about elon musk and his d.o.g.e. team as well as the backlash to some of the actions they have taken so far. last week, democratic lawmakers join several advocacy groups on rallies to protest what d.o.g.e. has been up to so far, including threats to federal workers. this is democratic senator cory booker addressing the crowd on wednesday. [video clip] sen. booker: we are joining the leadership, we are joining the leadership already stated by brian shots of hawaii, where we will cooperate with no appointments when it comes to the state department. no appointment when it comes to foreign policy.

what to do in the senate as to not cooperate with the illegal and unconstitutional acts that they are trying to do. [cheers & applause] the second thing we are going to do, and we met this morning, the second thing we are going to do is we are going to fight this legally in every way we can. we will fight the violations of civil service laws. we will fight their violation of civil rights laws. we will fight their violations of separations of powers. we will fight their violations of our constitution of the united states of america. [cheers & applause] we will not shut up, we will stand up. we will speak up, we will rise

up. it is time, as the african spiritual says, for us to lift every voice in condemnation of what is going on! [cheers & applause] host: all right, let's go to your calls in open forum, starting with mark on our line for republicans. good morning. caller: yes, this is mark. i was wondering about the emergency procedural act that president trump has evoked, along with the patriot act. and then also the zero-based budgeting by jimmy carter that was done in the 1970's, that they seem to be trying to do now but in a massive way. and if they are even aware of the emergency procedural act and the zero-based budgeting that

president jimmy carter tried to evoked in the 1970's, after he took over from nixon, after watergate. the way president carter tried to do it, it was agency by agency. it appears that what musk is doing is to try to do a sweeping one and making it justifiable starting from zero. which, by the way, jimmy carter proposed we do that, was actually rejected after it caused all kinds of confusion, and agencies, short on funds to complete their assigned duties. that's all i've got to say. two people think about the emergency procedure act, the patriot act, and zero-based budgeting. thank you. host: frank is in aberdeen,

maryland on our line for democrats. good morning. caller: yes, good morning. i just want to remind america how we got into this deficit mess to begin with. in 1979, 1980, ronald reagan expressed purpose for his proposed tax cuts was to starve the beast, to force congress to come to terms with the entitlement spending, including social security and medicare, and get it all under control, meaning eliminate it. what happened immediately was our deficit went up 2.75 times in eight years because of ronald reagan's tax cuts. and now we have doubled down on it twice. right after reagan made his first tax cut, i got a paper, i

was at the university of baltimore, and i projected that by 2035 to 2040, we would hit $20 trillion in debt. it happened a little bit early. we are suffering from our own illusion that tax custody for themselves, which was a lie, -- cuts pay for themselves, which was a lie, and that this was not class warfare, which it was. wealth has accumulated into fewer and fewer hands. so we need to wake up and smell the coffee and realize that we need to tax what we are going to spend. it is as simple as that. thank you, ma'am. host: virginia is in wisconsin on our line for independents. good morning. caller: hi.

i want to talk about elon musk being subpoenaed to hearings in congress. i have been watching those hearings lately, and it is terrible. you don't get any information from the witnesses that are called, which is why i watch, because they bring in experts, and you think you are going to get educated, but all that happens is these congresspeople scream and yell and make speeches and say, answer me, yes or no. the witnesses never get a chance to say anything. it is like performance art for congress people.

all of the people that have been calling in this morning, they have a lot of questions. i would like to see trump and musk answer those questions, but in a forum where you actually get to hear the answers. i know musk and trump did anything on before trump was elected where they talked about what they were going to do for a couple of hours. i would like to see that happen again with musk talking about what he did at usaid, what he plans to do at the treasury department and things like that so the people who called in today could be informed with the

facts. but it is not going to happen at a hearing in front of congress. thank you. host: next up is rick in north carolina on the line for republicans. good morning, rick. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. the people that call in from time to time talk about the possible dissolution of social security. i don't know if they seem to realize some things we have heard over the past week about people 150 years old still on social security or illegal aliens drawing social security or medicaid. i want those things look at. certainly, they need to be. i do not oppose leon -- elon musk at all. i don't know if anybody else

could do that job without being bought off by politicians or what have you. that is my comment this morning. i would like people to do more research and not rely on certain news agencies to get all of their information. thank you very much. host: next up is john in grand rapids, michigan, on the line for democrats. caller: good morning. how are you? host: fine, thank you. caller: i was hoping you could shine some light on the changes made to immigration that is going to allow africanus -- afrikkaners, aka apartheid people, into this country. i want to know why our personal information has to be accessed to reduce government waste.

thank you. host: i was not able to look up the article about south africans but i will see if i can do so shortly. let's hear from sharing on the line for independent -- sharon on the line for independents. caller: it is my second time to call in. i cannot believe the republicans are being so complacent about this. i'm going to call social security in the morning and have my social security check put on a debit card and then i'm going to go to the bank and close the account so my information is not floating around out there and i am going to encourage everybody i know on social security to do the same. i watched the thing last night on the committee meeting on waste.

i was sickened by the comments by the lady from north carolina where she absolutely -- she absolutely was up there saying "tranny, tranny." host: you are talking about the senator from south carolina. caller: yes, i think she needs to go under the table. that is my comments on the whole thing. i encourage all senior citizens to protect their bike accounts. thank you. host: sabrina is in los angeles on the line for democrats. caller: good morning. everybody knows our governmental processes need to be corrected. we cannot please everyone. it is going to be corrected.

the way trump and his party is doing it is very inhumane, in addition to the fact i am having an issue with elon musk who is a south african and has no right to political processing from what i am understanding. how is it he is able to get into personal information, as the woman was stating a minute ago? if i have to put him on the phone when i call about this to set up appointments for him, if i have to put him on the phone to get authentication for him for me to be able to speak on his behalf, how is it this man can get into all of our personal information and we did not vote

him in? i am trying to figure out how it is he is in place without any confirmation, he has not been before any board, senate, the congress, he has not been before anyone. the people did not vote for elon musk, republicans or democrats, it does not matter. i'm trying to figure out how it is right for him to be where he is and involved in people's information the way he is. host: ok. a few callers have mentioned the trump executive order related to south africa. i was able to find an article on that. this one from cbs news on february 8. trump orders u.s. to prioritize refugee resettlement of south africans of european descent. president trump on friday directed government officials to prioritize the resettlement of south africans of european descent through the u.s. refugee program which he suspended during his first day in office.

in the executive order, trump accused the south african government of discriminating against afrikaners, and ethnic group made up of dissidents of european colonists mostly from the netherlands, who first arrived in the 1600's. until the 1990's, white south africans ruled south africa enforcing the brutal system of apartheid against the country's black majority. peter is in texas on our life for republicans. good morning. caller: yes, ma'am. i work for the federal government. in 2014 when the communist chinese party hacked opm, no one seemed to be as outraged as they are today. i look at it personally elon musk to say he is going to save us money by looking at the government and trying to see about all the waste going on. that is a good thing.

in 2014 when other countries was hacking into our government system, and for elon musk to do this i think is a good thing. let him continue to do those things because it just seems right. -- for him to do that than a communist party like china when they did that. no one seemed outraged. the media did not expose it like they are now. a friend said he is going to give out information. they seem to forget in 2014 when i was hacked and all of my information was out there. i would rather elon musk have this than the communist chinese party. nobody wants to be hacked, don't get me wrong. he seems to be genuine in his efforts. let's allow the process to go through.

if he is doing something wrong, we need to get rid of it and take care of it. for now, let's see how this plays out. thank you for taking my call. host: sue is in chelsea, michigan, on the line for independents. caller: thank you for taking my call. i have a feeling that as far as people saying republican, democrat, or independent, we are all people. we are paying the . if government has nothing to hide, why do they care to be investigated? we need to know where the money is going. the schools, most of your kids cannot read, write, add. they have computers and they have this. if they learn the basics, it is easy to do the computers and other stuff on there.

i feel there is too much power into saying if they are democrat, republic, or whatever, we are all people. we all should work together and try to make the best world for everyone. host: ok. cedric is in louisiana on the line for democrats. caller: good morning crepe i am very concerned -- good morning. i am very concerned about the power elon musk has in this country. donald trump is letting him go too far. anytime a man can give a nazi salute and americans do not stand up to say anything to criticize him for this, and another thing, we as the people of this country always had confidence in the fbi and the

cia. those people protect the american interests in this country. if we let this country, donald trump and his group, destroy the fbi and the cia, we are going to be in a lot of trouble. every person should take a stand. as far as another thing, you were talking about the schools in this country, the schools in this country, the democrats tried to make public vouchers for certain groups for the last 30 years. they want to destroy the public schools in this country. we have to take a stand. the democrats put us in this position.

we should not be in this position we in today. america is the wicked report right now -- port right now. that is all i have to say. host: cedric was calling in from louisiana where the super bowl will be happening later today in new orleans. two op-eds about president trump attending the super bowl. this one saying president trump is going to the super bowl. that is a good thing, more presidents should. trump at the super bowl, this is great regardless of what critics say, i am surprised more presidents have not done this. this is by nicole russell who says president donald trump is attending the super bowl in new orleans on sunday, the first sitting president to do so. i will admit i do not care much about football, but this is a good thing. actually, this is great, regardless of what critics say. i am surprised more presidents have not done this. scrolling down to the larger

point, i would expect trump to be at the super bowl because that is where america's eyes will be this sunday and he is our president, like it or not. trump loves to be at the center of the action and everyone will be crooning as taylor swift watches her boyfriend travis kelce play against the philadelphia eagles. trump probably sees this as an opportunity to bolster his image among republicans. hate all you want, my youngest child says the super bowl is rigged thanks to tailor swift but she has been a boon for football. americans watched switch watch her man win another super bowl ring. what do you think trump will do to those ratings and conversations around the world? another usa today op-ed with the opposite view, this one by mike freeman who says donald trump is going to the super bowl and

ruining one of america's best days, him saying the super bowl where families gather to watch the big game, it lots of food, get together with friends, it is one of the extremely few moments where americans genuinely come together. we put aside politics. we take part in a great american tradition. it is actually pretty cool. well, it was because now president trump is attending the game. the fact that trump will be at the same game jalen hurts is in is a remarkable contradiction. he spoke about the evolution of the black quarterback and how he does not take this moment lightly where two black super quarterbacks are playing in the super bowl. it is the kind of thoughtfulness we have come to expect from him, the kind of depth trump does not

have. let's go to jonathan on the line for republicans. caller: my name is jonathan. i am a republican. i want we republicans to think of what elon musk is doing down the road. trump will be long gone and will hurt us. we should remember that. donald trump will be gone down the road, but what leon musk is doing will hurt us on that. thank you. host: lisa is in rhode island on the line for independents. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i have three simple points. i have listened to so many people on this topic. the first point i would make is elon's power. i think the information out there that people are grabbing

on is disingenuous. his power is limited given our infrastructure. everywhere in government is siloed. your information is literally everywhere. i do not by the argument that he has all of this power and he is going to use your information against you. our government already has it, everybody. the receptionist at your health care facility that is minimum wage has all of your information. that is paper being thrown in dumpsters. we are being hacked left and right. everyone has your information. that is not to say it is not a valid concern but i do not think the department of treasury who is working with doge is giving him this much information where

they shut down systems to the extent this is a catastrophe. point number two is our infrastructure is circa 1970 at best. you have five genius brains willing to work for nothing to help us to get into the 21st century. i do not understand how people are freaking out over an audit that happens in the private sector every single day to improve efficiencies, to improve innovation. the outrage -- i literally cannot even wrap my head around it. my third point is you are talking about someone looking at the books. i would ask the public, how many times have we gotten all of those bills annoyed they have gotten paid? we are going through the electric bill, it is $1000.

we look at our utility bills and they are through the roof. what do we do? we audit those bills. what do we find? mistakes. you charged me for this movie that i did not buy. you charged me for this on my credit card, this is not right. how is it we can do that but we cannot ask our congressmen, our senators, to open the books as an american taxpayer to see where the money is going? right or wrong, whatever the usa does, i am sure they have done -- usaid does come i'm sure they have done a ton of great things, but i feel like all those people screaming elon and doge has all of this power, they are screaming at the top of their lungs, they are looking at our information -- host: lisa, we have to -- we are about out of time. do you want to finish up your point? caller: the waste. that is my point. host: thank you to everyone who

called in for open forum. next, we will have a conversation with skye perryman, president and ceo of democracy forward. she will be talking about the legal strategy to counter the trump administration's actions. we will be right back. ♪ >> weekends bring you booktv. here is what is coming up this weekend. angela merkel discusses her memoir with former president barack obama. the former georgetown law professor argues there is a decline in academic freedom at elite law schools creating a climate of intolerance. and then, the son of robert

moses talks about being black in america through the voices of three generations of the moses family. he is interviewed by freeman hrabowski. find a full schedule in your program guide or watch anytime online at booktv.org. >> tonight, on c-span's q&a, reginald dwayne betts is our guest. he talks about the book and the work done by freedom reads, the organization he founded that builds libraries in prisons. >> the judge might have been under no allusion sending me to prison would help but he did say i could get something out of it if i tried.

i think this is a testament not just that i got something out of it but i came home to a world where it might feel overwhelming. it might feel like it is absolutely hard to make away when you have hurt somebody in the past. but i also came to a world that has radically changed and shifted and created more opportunities for people to reflect on the ways in which they have changed and to be welcomed back into what i like to say is the beloved community as dr. king said. >> tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span's "q&a." you can listen to all of our podcasts on the free c-span now app. >> c-spanshop.org is c-span's online store. rouse our latest collection of c-span products, apparel, books, home decor, and accessories.

there is something for every c-span fan. every purchase helps support our nonprofit operations. shop now or anytime at c-spanshop.org. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. we are joined by skye perryman, president and ceo of democracy forward, here to chat with us about legal efforts to challenge the trump administration's agenda. welcome to "washington journal." guest: thank you for having me. host: talk about what your group does, when you were founded, and how you are funded. guest: democracy forward is a legal organization that believes the promise of democracy is open to everyone but that the courts have an important frontline role to play in protecting people's rights and communities across the country. our organization was founded in

the wake of the 2016 election. in early 2017, when we started seeing the trump-pence administration at the time take a number of actions that were deeply harmful to people in communities. there were obviously things like the muslim ban which captured headline attention and there were many legal challenges in an attempt to stop the destructive policy. but under the radar, the administration was doing a range of things at federal agencies that were undermining people and communities. in some instances, our democracy at the whole like when they set up the suppression commission that sought to collect data on individual voters across the country. our organization was started to add legal capacity to ensure people's rights were protected at the federal level. after january 6, 2021, we began

expanding our efforts to counter far-right extremism in state and local communities. now with the federal landscape changing and with the way we are seeing the trump administration operating, seeking to accelerate project 2025 and other harmful policies for people and communities across the country, we are also focused on ensuring people's rights are protected through our legal actions. host: how are you funded? guest: we are funded by individuals in communities across the country. there is a way that you can donate on our website. we also are grateful for philanthropic support. that is going to be grants from foundations in communities as well. host: what is your overall legal strategy when it comes to reacting to the trump administration's actions? how do you choose which cases you are going to pursue? guest: we know the trump administration's playbook.

there have been a few surprises which we will talk about including his installation of elon musk and doge across the federal government seeking to undermine the way our government functions for people. we know the playbook. we saw it in the first administration. we saw it in project 2025. our strategy is to counter that playbook. we want to make sure if this administration does things that harm people and communities in those things are unlawful that there are swift legal challenges brought. you saw us immediately be able to get into court when the administration froze essential services across the country with the spending and funding freeze, in a matter of hours getting a court order to ensure people's services were not disrupted. it is sort of meeting the shock

and awe approach of the administration with swift legal challenges that ensure people and communities have their rights protected. host: you mentioned elon musk and doge. what are the legal concerns you have about this arrangement and the actions the group has taken so far? guest: there are a host of legal concerns and there are a host of human concerns. i have concerns about both of them. you asked about the legal concerns. i will start by saying doge has been operating in a nontransparent manner. we have a lawsuit filed to try to force transparency requirements that federal law requires the american people get to know about their government and who is influencing and advising the president. we believe they have violated a range of those transparency and accountability protections. even beyond that now, this

institution or these actors, elon musk and others, are violating things like the privacy act that protects the privacy of individuals across the country that prohibits the government from invading that privacy, that personal information. they are operating in a way that violates our federal protections against arbitrary and capricious government seeking to go in and even brag about how they are going into brake shop across the federal government paired we have a host of concerns but we are having the courts are beginning to check this behavior , especially with the court order the attorneys general were able to secure yesterday with respect to treasury data. host: you had a meeting with senate minority leader chuck schumer recently. he posted on x about the legal work you all are doing to protect the american people. what was the nature of this meeting?

will you be working directly with democrats on your legal challenges moving forward? quickly are a nonpartisan organization. we invite anyone in this country -- guest: we are a nonpartisan organization. we invite anyone into our work because this is a moment that is not about one political party. it is not about one political perspective. it is about the country. it is about our people and communities across the country. it is about the future this nation will have. we make ourselves available to brief lawmakers when asked on the legal challenges, the concerns we are seeing, what we are hearing from people and communities, and we will continue to do that at the federal and state level. host: recently, president trump gave his assessment of elon musk's actions and also accountability for them. let's listen to a bit of that and i will get your response.

[video clip] >> they are finding tremendous waste. really waste more than anything else i think you could say. probably fraud and abuse could be added to it. waste, fraud, and abuse. they are finding tremendous amounts of really bad things. bad spending. you have been reading and writing about some of it frankly and some of the things they have been doing is just terrible. elon cannot and will not do anything without our approval. we will give him the approval where appropriate. where not appropriate, we will not. he reports in, and it is something he feels very strongly about. i am impressed because he is running a big company. has nothing to do, if there is a conflict, we will not let him get near it. he has a good instinct. he has a team of talented

people. we are trying to shrink government and he can probably shrink it as well as anybody else. host: your response? guest: there is nothing about efficiency happening right now. going into agencies and taking individual personal information about the american people, your personal financial information, health care information, wage information, that is not a fast track to government efficiency. dismantling services across the country. red and blue communities, big cities and rural areas. that is not efficiency. this is an effort, we are seeing unprecedented effort in this country to have unelected and unaccountable billionaire and individuals seeking to infiltrate the united states government and do things that are harmful to all of us regardless of your political persuasions. i will say efficiency in

government is incredibly important. we need our government to do better. but what we know and what data shows is the quickest way, the fast track to a more corrupt government that does not run on time or work for the people is a government like what you are seeing now where loyalty is the calling card of the day, where civil servants are being attacked, people who have served and engage in public service for this country under democratic administrations, republican administrations, they are being attacked. and where there is an effort to install loyalists in our federal government as opposed to those who work for the people. this is a smokescreen for what appears to be a very corrosive and harmful private agenda and there is not anyway we will accomplish a greater and more effective government that works for the people this way. host: there have been a variety

of many actions taken by the trump administration so far that have resulted in legal challenges. some have been successful, some are still in progress. i want to talk about one of them. the administration argued for a temporary pause in funding while it examines spending practices. this was a statement from the former acting director of the office of management and budget. i should say we have now a current acting omb director who was confirmed thursday night. back in january, omb was saying, in the interim, to the extent permissible, federal agencies must temporarily pause all activities related to obligation or disbursement of all federal financial assistce and other revant agency activities that mabe implicated by the executive orders. this will provide the administration time to review

agcy programs and determine the best uses of funding for those programs consistent with the law and the president's priorities. this created a lot of backlash. what is your take on the legality of this approach? guest: it is unlawful. we were able to get a court to pause this within 24 hours of the memo. it was callous disregard for the american people. this approach did not do anything to enhance efficiency or create review times or contemplation about federal spending or our federal government. it shut off things like head start, meals on wheels, resources rural areas rely on, the urban areas rely on, that red and blue states rely on. it was a national crisis. we were pleased to go into court with our client, the national

council of nonprofits, which has a membership that is highly diverse. this was the national council of nonprofits, the american public health association that was seeing in real-time the harms to health care. there were reports about medicaid portals being closed. the main street alliance, which is small businesses across the country. and a civil rights advocacy organization. the federal court was able to pause the administration's arbitrary activities and extended that clause last week. there will be more briefing. this is an example of arbitrary behavior by this administration that is not only troubling from a legal perspective, it is troubling from a human perspective because this is not serving anyone. you saw the white house come out scrambling after the court ruled.

members of congress were having to mobilize because their communities were not getting what they needed. i think the courts provided an important check. i think this is a preview of how this administration is going to operate. what we are seeing is they are not operating in a way that is making people's lives better in the day to day but operating in a chaotic way causing uncertainty and harm to people preyed some are still not getting funding because you cannot just turn on and off switches like the government sought to do. i think this was a real troubling activity the trump administration relied on. i was pleased we were able to help communities across the country get relief. host: i should also mention the trumpet administration later rescinded the memo.

you mentioned some of the issues are ongoing. let's go to our callers. republicans, 202-748-8001. democrats, 202-748-8000. independents, 202-748-8002. let's start with martin on the line for republicans. caller: good morning, folks. could our president takes the 80,000 agents and audit the federal government? there is a lot of entitlement programs that have rules and regulations such as also with social cure diction -- social security with people who are dead and not following rules for getting money. is there any way our president could use those agents to help us review all of the programs? guest: the concern is we are seeing the president is saying

they want to undermine civil servants across the government, people who do not work for any particular political ideology or any particular party, but those that swear an oath to the constitution. we are really concerned about what we are seeing with how the president is seeking to purge the civil service. we have a range of resources available for civil servants or those concerned about this. i do think there is important work for everyone in federal government service. the president, congress, others, to evaluate the way our government is operating. but we are not seeing that type of evaluation happening. we are seeing a shock and awe approach against the american people and essential services that are really important as

well as an effort to seek to hollow out and undermine civil servants across the country in positions from the irs but also any other agencies. that is what we have been focused on at democracy forward. host: we have a question received via text message. does democracy forward plan on challenging the trump administration for halting sexual assault training in the military due to trump's executive order when he throughout dei? guest: we have already policy challenging two executive orders that seek to target accessibility but also seek to target people for using and expressing their first amendment rights. that case is pending in federal court in baltimore right now on behalf of a really diverse coalition, the american association of university professors, the national association of professionals in higher education, restaurant workers in america, and the city

of baltimore. we already have that court challenge moving. the promise i will make to those asking, will we challenge, what is the challenge going to become of the promise i make to you is that if this administration and when this administration takes actions undermining the rights of people in this country, we will do everything in our power to ensure there are swift legal responses in court. we are building support with communities across the country in order to do that. host: donald is in south bend, indiana, on the line for democrats. good morning. caller: i have no problem with government finding agencies and everything. i have no problem with that. that is what i think they should do. but i think congress should do this. i do not think someone like elon

musk has contracts with the government should be messing around with my personal data in treasury. that scares me. one more thing. i know this may sound kind of kooky, but this is what i am scared about elon musk. he is doing something. when trump's term ends, he is doing something to hold the country hostage so trump could get a third term or something like that. i do not trust elon musk. hey, congress, your abdicating your role to this man. get some backbone and get him out, and do your job. thank you. host: ms. perryman, any response? guest: americans across the country are concerned about elon musk, their privacy, and their communities. we are in court what is an

unlawful and harmful regime to install an unelected person and have them go through and take information that is the american people's. we have a number of lawsuits pending against this very thing. the lawyers are working night and day to ensure this very corrupt regime will be held accountable. host: james is in mississippi on the line for independents. caller: good morning. how you doing? host: good, thanks. caller: i have a problem with elon musk and president trump because i remember when they was talking about the rich persons with the democratic party, a billionaire. every day, they talked about how

he was connected with the democratic party. now elon musk gave up $200 million-something to vote for president trump. you have two or three other billionaires joining his team. you have the supreme court judges who did what they did. like i said, i believe he won but he only won because i'm the women's vote -- because of the women's vote. could you speak more about the power of the women's vote and why you think women supported president trump? host: james, i should say skye is joining us to chat about the legal challenges. if you want to talk about women voters, you can. james also mentioned the supreme court. i am hoping you can also talk about the role of the supreme court in all of this. guest: we know the courts are a

frontline right now. they are the place people and communities have to resort to, unfortunately. it is sad we have a situation in the country now where we have a president that said he was not going to implement project 2025, he said that by the way to voters across the country, including women voters the caller referenced. within days has accelerated this deeply problematic project. we know conservatives, liberals, and independents all disapprove of project 2025, which is why he ran from it on the campaign trail. he has now installed the key architects in the federal government and is seeking to undermine people. many of those policies are unlawful. they are being challenged in the courts right now. eventually, some of those challenges will likely go to the supreme court. this is a supreme court that has had to reject the president's

extremism before when he was seeking to overturn an election and on a range of other things. what we will do every day is continue to advocate for people and communities and our constitution in court's, in whatever courts we need to, including at the supreme court. host: another comment or question. while she has much to say about her beliefs of nefarious motives, she is not yet discussed the waste and fraud ready uncovered. additionally, she talks about musk and his team as unelted yet virtually all department positions withithe government are appointed and not elected. federal is different from state and local governments. guest: i will just say there are a lot of folks throughout the federal government that are unelected. what we have not had in this country is a president who has installed someone like elon musk

who has had no appointments printer is a role for we the people. this administration is seeking to set out communities across the government from their government and seeking to bully federal employees. you want to talk about unelected, federal employees who work and live in all 50 states and the district of columbia, across the country, who do not work for any political party or ideology but who swear an oath to our constitution. polling shows over 90% of americans want their government to work and be where people in the government are promoted based on merit, not political loyalty. what you have seen in the first 20 days of this administration is an acceleration of a corrupt system seeking to only place

people loyal to a particular person or ideology within the federal government and not loyal to the american people. i do not think the american people expected elon musk would be holding their personal information and seeking to export terabytes of data on individual americans for his own purposes. i do not believe that is the way we accomplish efficient government in this country. we know the best majority of americans agree with that. host: cindy in florida asks if your organization is nonpartisan why she is preaching the democrats'rhetoric. are there any lawsuits against non-democrats? guest: we want to make sure people in communities are protected across the country. we had litigation pending against the prior administration. we have litigation pending against this administration. we will have more litigation pending against this

administration because they operate in a way undermining the people. we are motivated by what we the people in this country need, the rights we have, and seeking to hold government accountable in the courts. host: john is in missouri on the line for republicans. good morning. caller: hi, ms. perryman. it is interesting you point these situations out. since covid shut down our way of life, it has not fully recovered from that. there has been a lot of spending on the same level. it upsets me your enthusiasm for our countrymen suffering in north carolina, tennessee, and california, i would propose and a minimum 10% of all of your

legal fees should be going directly to a community and 10% of all campaign money spent should be directed directly to the local community you supposedly are representing. would to see you do more of american relief. guest: thank you for calling in. at democracy forward, we represent all of our clients pro bono and free of charge. we are not charging fees for our work. i will tell you i completely support obviously and so many support the importance of ensuring local communities have the resources they need which is one of the reasons why we have had to swiftly react and go to court when this administration sought to shut down essential community services across the country. host: lou is in new york on

the line for democrats. caller: thank you for taking my call. as a lawyer, i greatly appreciate what is trying to be done through litigation but i have to say i am pessimistic. this is a huge overreach of executive power. there may be some federal district courts and courts of appeal that are going to see it that way. ultimately, this will wind up at the supreme court printer recent history of the supreme court has been to allow the ever expanding executive power to take over all aspects of government. i'm extremely pessimistic. i realize litigation will slow the administration down to some extent. but by the time we get to the supreme court, my great fear is this will all be for naught. what are your thoughts? i will take your response off-line. guest: thank you. we do not believe there is one silver bullet to get out of the

situation the country is thrust into, a situation deeply harmful to people and communities. litigation is an important role. without litigation, communities would still be going without programs like head start and meals on wheels and essential services. without litigation, musk and doge would still be rifling through data at the treasury department on individual americans. litigation is going to be really important in the immediate term. your concern about the broader place this goes highlights what we have sought to emphasize a lot which is litigation is one part of the work we need to do to protect our rights and the future of our country. but congress is going to also have to step in and check this runaway executive power. it is going to be incredibly important in the coming months and years that both branches of

government check the executive branch if the executive branch and the president continues to operate the way they are operating. i take your call and point. me, this is more reason why the american people need to be demanding more from our lawmakers and also looking to the courts to do what they can do and what we can do in the courts in this time. i do think some of the credibly extreme policies we are having to challenge in court right now will get a reception at the supreme court that will lead to permanent relief. i understand that landscape is difficult in many instances and it is going to take all branches of government. host: larry is in utah on the line for independents. good morning. caller: good morning, america.

i want to commend all callers and the tone of the program this morning, first off. it is good to hear and feel. i have a comment and a question. my comment is that the right believes trump is a savior and he will fix everything. the left are sure he is the devil and will ruin it. i would suggest maybe neither is the case and for us to think one or two men can destroy the country or dismantle democracy by doing a job, it does not seem like you have much faith in the power of this democracy. we are way more powerful and will outlast one man and one presidency. we will do alright. just relax, everybody. host: what was your question,

larry? caller: the question. if not this way, how is it done? if there is waste, fraud, and abuse, how do we find it? do you just keep going like we are going? i would suggest that is unsustainable to continue on this trajectory. we are going to be all right. host: let's let ms. perryman respond. if not for the strategy elon musk is doing, how do you think they should be going after waste, fraud, and abuse? guest: people like the inspector general who have massive staffs installed in large agencies across the federal government to do exactly this, to evaluate and ensure there is not waste, fraud, and abuse, and improper conduct. what this president did in the first days of his administration was fire them. we know the american people want

a government that works for them and works better. what we are seeing is an effort to install corrupt loyalists within the administration that have no obligation to the american people and are not looking at where corruption is, they are going in for their own personal purposes, taking data and acting in a very arbitrary manner. my message to the administration is if you are concerned about efficient government, you need to operate in a way that is not undermining people like the inspectors general whose entire job is to find waste, fraud, and abuse, and help root it out. an important thing to emphasize is the united states moved away from a system based more on political loyal in the 1800's

because the government was not operating transparently and not delivering for everyday americans. that led to our nation's civil service. these are men and women who swear in 02 the constitution and not a particular political ideology -- swear an oath to the constitution and not a political ideology. it is concerning they are seeking to remove the check on corruption and installing its own loyalists who are not interested in keeping corruption at bay. we will see how this plays out. i think communities are feeling the pain already from these decisions. our job as lawyers is to make sure as they continued to violate the law and harm people that the courts are there and can stop some of this. host: janet in oregon is on the line for democrats. caller: hi.

i am wondering, the doge created, twofold question. host: quickly. we are just about out of time. caller: has it been legally created? we have heard congress should create any agency. second question, is the government moving too quickly? how is that impacting federal employees as well as citizens with things like medicare, medicaid, and those types of issues? host: was doge legally created and how is it impacting federal workers? guest: we are in court in a range of lawsuits because of all of the unlawful behaviors and activities of doge. our view is it is not operating lawfully in the courts will eventually have to step in to stop what it is doing. i think what is happening to public servants in this country is generationally concerning.

this administration is threatening federal employees and our nation who have done nothing other than work for the american people in jobs, not just jobs in washington but jobs in all 50 states and the district of columbia, doing things like keeping our food safe, evaluating and making sure our water and air are safe, keeping public safety safe and our communities safe. this is the work federal employees do every single day. we are having to be in court on behalf of organizations like the american public health association because they are rooting out the very people who keep us safe and healthy and ensure our food is labeled correctly, etc. i think this is devastating. at democracy forward, we have helped mobilize to help civil servants and the american people

who are concerned about what is happening with their government through our initiative, civil-service strong. it is a place you can go to to learn more about how you can help public servants and what we are doing to stop this administration targeting the people who have helped make our government deliver for people. i encourage you to go and learn more about how we can support our fellow americans in this time, but how we can support the americans that have served the american people. what this administration is doing is nothing short of devastating. we are in court on over five cases right now to try to stop much of this behavior you see the administration seeking to continue unabated. host: thank you skye perryman of democracy forward. appreciate your time on "washington journal" this

morning. thanks to everyone who called in today. we are going to be back tomorrow with another edition of "washington journal" at 7:00 a.m. eastern. hope everyone has a nice day. ♪ [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2025] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] ♪ >> c-span's "washington journal" with our live forum involving you to discuss the latest issues, from washington and across the country, monday morning, he discusses the week ahead in congress and republicans work with the trump administration's legislative agenda.

the white house reporter talks about the latest on president trump's actions and white house news of the day. dr. singer examines the trump' administratio's approach to combating the fentanyl crisis. watch monday morning on c-span, c-span now, or online at c-span.org. >> this week on the c-span networks, the house and senate are in session. the house will consider legislation establishing new penalties for evading border patrol agents in car chases. the senate continues voting on cabinet nominees including tulsa gabbard as director of national intelligence and robert f. kennedy, jr., as health and human services secretary.

♪ host: good morning. it is sunday come up 9, 2025.

the unprecedented access of a private citizen to sensitive data raising alarm among lawmakers along with robert effort to dramatically reduce the size of the federal government. this morning, we want to know if you support or oppose elon musk's doge efforts. our line for republicans, (202) 748-8001. for democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents can reach us at (202) 748-8002. if you would like to text us, that number is (202) 748-8003. please be sure to include your name and where you are writing in from. on social media, you can find us at facebook.com/c-span, and on x @cspanwj. a variety from various news outlets to what elon musk has been up to the last few weeks with his doge system, including the washington post editorial board. trump needs to erect guardrails for doge. careful