view on nato. this is just under 20 minutes. >> all right. welcome. i feel very happy. we are grateful that senator shaheen and senator tillis are here for the senate nato observer group, which is also known as the snog, which is fun. i thought we would jump right into it. there's been a lot going on here it week, a lot of tuft outside of -- activity outside of this billing. around ukraine, europe, administration. but president zelenskyy spoke today and will a petitions with the president's enjoy keith kellogg in the brown there's been some mixed messaging from the administration and something that i and some other reporters here have been hearing are some doubts from some european

officials about whether the u.s. can bring vladimir putin to the table. i want to start with you, senator somewhat happy -- somewhat happy. what do we know about the administration as plan hear? >> you maybe should start with senator tillis. i think you are right, there have been mixed messages from the i think sepbgts of did he ever hegseth spoke maybe outs of turn when he said we should take fates toe off -- state toe off because we don't start by giving away our leverage. then vice president vance walked that back in his interview. i think that maybe the message is we shouldn't be negotiating in public. hralgts figure out the -- let's figure out the plan and think of the negotiation. >> should we chalk that up this

is a new administration we are three weeks in our potentially layers an ideological ideologic that is in play. >> i think one thing we have to remind ourselves is go back to the first 90 days of the -- let's go back to the obama transition. first 90 days in the standpoint of the losers of that election was chaos. i viewed it as so much chaos i quit my job at i.b.m. because i thought it would create a political environment am 2010 that with give republicans the majority in the legislature for only the second time since civil war and you are looking at the speaker of the house that led that. that was an overreach that created a bad environment.

this administration has about 90 days to sort it out but if we don't get into an ongoing concern in business 10 i think away can run into political challenges next year. there's to negotiations going on. i think that people perceive is not a system phone call and follow-up phone call with president zelenskyy. there's a lot of ground to be confident and many of us don't know that patent he wants the appearance of negotiation but he just wants the world stage it elevate him. i personallity that he's responsible for war crimes atrocitieson imagination. the utilization of mercenaries to rape and kidnap and murder ukrainians. so i'm not really very optimistic that he's the right sort of person to negotiate with.

but i do believe that the president is, has established a good reputation for engaging even bad people to get dialogue going and i think dialogue has to begin a process that results in a paes that ukraine wants on their terms. >> is that part of where congressional delegation lake there steps in -- like this a rather large delegation, what kinds of message are you conveying to european leaders? one, i think we know you are probably hearing from european leaders who are expressing some concerns, some curious what kinds of concerns you are hearing and is the message we are senators, we have six-year terms, the u.s. commitment to nato is solid or -- >> i think that among the bipartisan delegation that is here particularly from the senate, the commitment to nights

toe is very solid. we understand tom and i co-chair the observer group and we started that group it milwaukee sure that people understood how important nato is. and the night tee has only gotten stronger sin the war in ukraine began. i think that is an important message. i think recognizing that we are stronger together the united states and europe, in this fight than we are divided. so that is very important. and doing everything we can to ensure that ukraine goes we've there is a negotiation that ukraine is in the strongest position possible. >> acknowledging what you said that there is terminal stages there have been some pwarsz meetings -- bipartisan meetings with senators and president zelenskyy. there were meetings with i believe there's a meetings last night marco ruio mets with him.

what is coming out of those conversations? >> i think it is -- i was in management consulting most of my career. i think we are in the storming phase of a group dynamic. brainstorming ideas, trying it if you can out what possible is what ukrainian people who fought and died to defend their sovereignty want. then we have it normalize some of that with our partners an allies and we can move forward on meaningful progress. but i think it is in the very early stages of discussion. one of the reasons why i believe that the delegation is helpful here is we can dispel in some of the conclusions that people have formed from american rest rick. we are very chaotic and enjoy it but sooner or later we settle

down the it was jean's ideas to reconstitute the group and she approached me and our first nato conference as the snog leaders we were on our way to bringsless when the president announced maybe nato wasn't needed any more trump in his first term. >> and i was going to pull the united states out. >> we were about to land and go to speak -- i think it is mutual i don't believe that many of our friends in europe understand the american systems nor do they american members understand your systems at a detailed level. but the fact is that there's no one person in the united states of america that can make a decision it withdraw from nato. our entrance that nato took an act of congress and it could take an act of congress to leave and there's never been a

president alive over 75 years nato existed that before the influence to have us withdraw. so that was sort of message we wanted to send. y'all got it deal with our rhetoric because it is what it is it has produced a pretty successful stadiums disruptive nation but it settlements down. nothing is ever as good or as bad as it seems. >> implemented to add because one of the important things an messages we convey to president zell was that we understand that it is very important that ukraine be at the table either directly or metaphorically. that zelenskyy said nothing about ukraine without ukraine he reiterated that again and that was a message that heard loud and clear from a bipartisan group of senators he met with.

>> the administration going to be bound by that, do you think? >> i think it will be very difficult to do any kinds of negotiations on ending the conflict am ukraine. i hope the administration learns from the negotiations in the afghanistan war because that government was not at the table and it didn't turn out so well. >> one way it sounds like trump's interest is being captured. lindsay graham has been talking about there mineral rights deal and some reporting that zelenskyy was presented with a deal and he has not yet agreed to it. is that accurate? was that -- is that being discussed in the background? and what is the state of play with that? >> i don't know the currents state of play. my understanding is that discussions under way. >> -- same hear.

>> as can he chairs one anything over the conference is whether or not transatlantic cooperation is healthy, what it will take it make it more healthy. president trump's call for raising defense spending the targets of 5% are reverberates ing around there. mark b.r.u.t.t.a. said it would be unto 3%. how should away take trump's call for 5%? should we take that whit raily or a -- literally or a negotiating position? >> if we look at the lapses that should be a fort future floor but we are using decades it convince members to get to 2%.

tray to preface my discussions around my family about the concept of family. i'm one of section -- six children. i view our nato partners an allies lake family members. that means we have arguments an fates. stadiums we don't talk for months as a time. but at the end of the day even my sister i'm convinced would never vote for me she is is liberal and with probably endorse my opponents. there's no doubt if i were in trouble she would come to my aid many does anyone believe we went defend the countries of nato. we have of it a discussion, pay the 2%, period.

we have been well before 2% forgive. don't give the american people a reason it say why should we do more when founders of the nato group -- i people with uniforms on. they can appreciate it. over last 24 hours if you total the shortfall below 2% of the nations that failed two make the 2% threshold it is more than $2 trillion for mutual defense. it is $2 trillion that would have been demand signals it increase the industrial base and may have been a capabilities that vladimir patent would not have taught he could stress test the night at the alliance and take advantage of ukraine. so, let's be good family members and tell our brothers and sisters the truth. your failure it commit to the 2%

threshold has made our world no dangerous. i think the sweet part is between 2 and 5 and the sooner we talk honestly that way and get the dynamic of the family back together there will be a safer europe and world. >> that goes to reason hasn't this discussion. it is not -- the nato countries have to get together and decide because it is the consensus organization. they will decides the timetable and amount or percentage. but the reason why we are doing it is the important point. as tom said we are living in a much more dangerous world tan we have been at any time that i can remember. not only do we have vladamir putin and ukraine, we have xi with designs on taiwan and when he will enter into a conflict to take taiwan.

we have iran still engaging with terrorist groups in the phaels who are -- middle east who are looking to threaten the west. we have north korea that has missiles that can reach the united states and other parts of the world. the point of having this defense is so that we can deter our adversaries. we do that together and through strengths and that is what it debate is all about. >> you referenced xi. part of this conversation and away heard it from petition helping leg is the -- hegseth is the u.s.a. is focusing on china. how can nato members get involved whether there's an office. where does it go from here? >> i think that what has happened at the last that nato

sum mitts have been important talking about china and the threat threaten and the fact that doesn't stay in the indo-pacific, it playing greats --it might go great. one of the things i say why ukraine matters to us is because oured a stairs are looking at what we do in ukraine, with we will stand by our allies and if we are not going to stand by our allies in ukraine will we in taiwan. if nato is attacked we are fortune that the ukrainians are courageous and willing to fight for their countries because terror fighting on behalf of a lot of us. i don't want to see my grandsons go to fight in ukraine or other

parts of the world because we didn't take a stand now to defend our ally when we said we were going to. >> all right. we will, i think that is all the time that we have for today. i really -- >> i told tom i didn't mean it filibuster him. >> you want to jump in. >> i hope we can agree the world is very small now and i will -- i won't say who member was but i think europe can learn from the clear an -- or should understand the clear and plenty danger that china represents. i was describing it to someone who is not as supportive of ukraine as i am. i'm unapologetically without kwaugs lane them. but we were am a joint session with the prime minister of japan speaking before congress. i happened it sit next to a

colleague had really questions whrorpbts we should play in role ukraine. i said this speech that about to occur is a prime minister from a country down near who is flying over to our countries over here it talk about the importance of a country over there. if a japanese prime minister can come to a joint session of congress and explain why ukraine and success there is so important why should there be any question of our you're mean friends about -- european allies about the threat of china much he was not there it talk about russia's threat but the imminent threat of china. the observing north korea troops killing ukrainians and deploying

through russia in plain sights are classic examples of where china is already threatening the safety a sovereignty of europe. so, clearly we have may progress in the strong concept. it was a huge amount of work to have china referenced six times in a strategic concept. yet away still have some of our partners that have infrastructure with technology. there is another area where we have to recognize the world is very small and get being smaller every day china is a clear and present threat it germany as much to the united states and every other countries in between an we should recognize that. >> i will let that be the last word. thank you both so much for being here. we have enjoyed

>> live from the center for strategic and international studies, watch at 1:00 p.m. eastern on c-span two, c-span now, or online at c-span.org. >> if you ever miss any of c-span's coverage, you can find it anytime online at c-span.org, videos of key hearings, debates or other events feature markers that guide you to newsworthy highlights. these appear on the right-hand side of your screen when you hit play on select videos. it makes it easy to look at what was debated and decided in washington. >> next, congressman michael mccaul in his dialogue with

politico on the sidelines of the munich security conference. he expressed concern over china's ability to use artificial intelligence for warfare. >> all right. thanks everyone so much for being here. we have a great conversation today with a really prominent republican voice who is here in munich with us. congressman michael mccaul, chairman emeritus of the house foreign affairs committee. we are really looking forward to it. , chair of the house foreign affairs committee. china, the end of pacific. ukraine has dominated the conversation. we were talking backstage about the scale and scope of chinese espionage that the u.s. and europe faces.