"borgata: clash of titans." mr. ferrante: thank you so much, peter. keep up the great work. thank you. ♪ [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2025] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] announcer: all q&a programs are available on our website, or as a podcast on our c-span now app.

♪ host: good morning. it is monday, february 24, 2025.

the house is in at noon and the senate returns at 3:00 p.m. we are with you for three hours. we begin with elon musk directing federal employees to tell what they did last week. they haven't omitting tonight to respond to the accomplishments of lasting. failure to reply will be taken as a designation, must said -- musk said. we are getting your reaction with a line for federal employees.is that number (202) 748-8003 is that number. otherwise, republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. you can send us a text or catch up with us on social media on x @cspanwj or on facebook.com/c-span. go ahead and start calling in now.

it began saturday with a tweet from elon musk saying that consistent with the president's instructions, all federal employee will receive an email requesting to understand what they got done last week, saying failure to respond will be taken as a resignation. that email went out on saturday afternoo jr brian of bbc news wi a image of what the email said. please rlyo this email with five bulletsn at you accomplished last week, and cc your manager. not send any classified information, links, or attachments, and the deadline set for monday, today, 11:59 p.m. eastern time. that email getting a lot of reaction within federal employee agencies. here is the front page of today's wall street journal. pushing back after the musk ultimatum. one more headline from the new york times this morning. federal standoff as some agencies urge their staff not to obey elon musk's order.

it was the subject of plenty of conversation on the sunday shows yesterday. chris van hollen was on "face the nation." here is what he had to say. [video clip] >> so there was this email that went out yesterday to federal employees. we know at the fbi and others, employees were told not to respond to the emailed saying to respond with your five bullet points. can people working at the state department feel safe not responding? are they putting their jobs at risk? >> i don't think so because what we are witnessing are illegal actions by elon musk. a number of courts as you know have issued temporary restraining orders to seize important private information, but also on their own conduct. so what the state department said is elon musk does not have the authority to require state department employees to answer these questions.

that has to happen in the chain of command. >> even though the president says he wants him to be more aggressive? >> the reality is we don't know what the president meant, but you have elon musk taking a chainsaw to the federal government and important services. there is no article four in the constitution that gives elon musk that authority. the lady has been "delegated" this authority is illegal and the actions he is taking are illegal, and we need to shut down this illegal operation. host: chris van hollen on "face the nation" yesterday. elon musk following up with tweets in response to some of the reaction that this email has gotten, saying at one point yesterday that this email is very basic pulse check. he went tsay the reason why this matters is that a number of people who are supposed to be working for the government are

doing so little work that they are not checking their emails at all. the wall street journal with a little more background in their reporting about how this all came together and why it happened this weekend. from their front story, elon musk's plan came together in a matter of hours saturday, that according to people familiar with the situation. earlier in the day, president trump posted a social media tweet that said he wanted the tesla chief executive to get more aggressive in response, musk and his team at doge sent the email. they then communicated the concept of the office of personnel management, human resources arm of the federal government, which sent the emailed to 2 million federal workers on saturday evening. musk said in his post announcing the email that it is consistent with donald trump's instructions. we want to hear from you, especially federal employees. (202) 748-8003 is the number for federal employees this morning. otherwise, phone lines as

normal, democrats, republicans, independents. setting aside this first segment of "washington journal" today for the latest effort from the department of government efficiency. tim is a first on the line for republicans. go ahead. caller: yeah, i don't think this is unreasonable at all. i think of many professions and occupations. my entire career was 40 years in sales. we had to do call reports at the end of the day, at least at the end of the week. you wrote down all of your sales calls and what was discussed on the sales call and what are your action items. i think of nurses and doctors in the medical profession. they jot everything down. everything has to be accounted for. even the fedex guy comes up to the house, drops a package off,

then get on their devices, and they input information. there are dozens and dozens of occupations and professions where people have to account for and note what they have done on the job. i don't think what they are asking a federal employees -- i think it is minuscule compared to other occupations. that is my point. host: this is deacon, a democrat in d.c. caller: good morning. i am a first time caller. and i think the process by which they are shrinking down government is one that is somewhat draconian but necessary. now, what the real crux of the matter is or the real issue, the unintended incidentals that will take place. look at a guy like somewhere in

the rural part of america like appalachia who works at some type of steel mill or some type of metals plant that gets contracted by the federal government. well, if he just got hired and has three hungry mouths to feed, this guy will be exed out because he was just brought into the contract system. so you can save money on your budget or reduce waste. the consequential incidentals is what is affected me -- what is affecting me. musk does not even wash his own dishes. trump does not even change his own tire. they don't know what it is like to get dirt up under their fingernails doing the work. so really, come on, guys.

there are some saying people, republicans and democrats, that are out here. we can settle the matter. they will be able to settle the matter. it is very simple. come on, guys. host: that is deacon in washington, d.c. on some of the numbers we are talking about here, in this column in the wall street journal, justin lahart goes through some of the layoffs that happened already. potential for more. as of january, the u.s. government had 2.4 million civilian employees excluding the postal service. that accounts for 1.5% of total nonfarm jobs. when president trump took office, he ordered a hiring freeze and elon musk's doge announced a deferred resignation offer to nearly all full-time federal civilian civil servants saying if they did not want to work they could be paid through september. the white house said 75,000

people accepted that offer. on february 14, the house began firing workers on their probationary period after getting hired or promoted. he says if you add up to 75,000 resignations to the 200,000 fired probationary employees and perhaps 200,000 people for a usual year of attrition of the federal workforce, the federal employment might drop by 475,000 jobs or about 20% of the total. those are some of the estimates, the numbers that could happen. the federal workforce, again, about 1.5% of the total nonfarm jobs in the united states. this is douglas in michigan, independent. what do you think? caller: yeah. how you doing? host: doing well. caller: that's good. i have a two-part question. the first part is this, whatever you do an audit of any type of business, i don't care what it is, whether it is a tech,

grocery store, whatever, you send in the cpa, not programmers. why would we send in a programmer that knows nothing about how that particular organization runs? what is the point of them having their laptops and software and we don't know what the software is on these different organizations' computers? the second, how can a tech guy cut government workers by saying, "you are fired?" i don't understand. it seems to me that half of america has given up on america. we still are a country that is ruled by laws. what are we saying? that all of us just forget the laws, run traffic lights?

there is no law and order anymore. we need a president that is able to stand up for the rule of law. host: that is douglas in southfield, michigan. this is albert in kalamazoo, michigan. good morning. you are next. caller: yes. none of this stuff that trump and musk are doing is legal. all cuts -- if you don't like a government agency, you have to pass a law in congress to get rid of that agency or to cut that agency. so none of this is constitutional. congress has to do the cutting. trump does not want to go to congress. i don't think many of these cuts would pass congress. to me, the bottom line is they are not that interested in saving money. they want to destroy the federal government. that is what musk wants to do. i think trump wants to do that. so you have all of these agencies that they don't like, and it is surprising. they don't like the postal

service.they don't like the faa . they don't like the fda. they don't like the cdc. so they are doing all of this unconstitutional authoritarian fascist-like cuts. it is horrible. it should be stopped. host: that is albert in michigan. president trump was at the conservative political action conference that took place here in washington, d.c., last week. he spoke on saturday about his efforts to streamline the federal government. this is what he had to say. [video clip] >> we are removing all of the unnecessary, incompetent, and corrupt bureaucrats from the workforce. that is what we are doing. under the bios, we offered federal employees more than 75,000 have volunteered. we want to make government smaller. we are efficient. we want to keep the best people, and we will not keep the worst people. we are doing another thing.

if they don't report for work, we are firing them. in other words, you have to go to office. right? right? look at them. if you don't report to work -- you know, that is another scam. host: that was president trump on saturday at cpac. by the way, if you want to watch c-span's coverage of cpac you can do so on c-span.com. what did you do last week? talking about the week of president's day last week. it was a four-day workweek for the federal government. that emailed going out saturday asking federal employees to respond with a list of five bullet points what they did last week. the deadline is tonight at midnight, according to the instructions given to those 2.4 million federal employees. this is david, democrat in florida. good morning. what do you think? caller: hey, good morning, john. host: good morning. caller: i would like to ask you a question if i may.

as one of the hosts of c-span, can you see yourself posting the program back when president obama was in office and he appointed someone like louis farrakhan to oversee doge? can you imagine that? host: so david, i am hosting this morning and asking what you think about this emailed to federal employees responding to what they did at work last week. what do you think? caller: well, i think he does not have very much authority to do anything. that is my whole point. i mean, he walks around saying he wants people to respond to him. he does not have as much authority as i do from the way i understand it. that is the reason i posed the question the way i put it. what if obama had appointed louis farrakhan? do you think the country would have stood by and allowed that to happen?

host: that is david in florida. this is william also in florida, riverview. good morning, republican. caller: good morning. host: go ahead, william. caller: yeah. i would like to say that i agree with trump. years ago when i worked in sales, i worked for the tobacco company, i worked for some food service companies, i traveled as a regional worker, and i had to account just like these people do. i had to fill out reports. they wanted to know where i have been, who i talked to, and i had to do it. one time i falsified it and put down that report and got fired. so i agree with what trump is doing. there is a lot of people, obviously it happens, that are not doing their job and it is waste, just like trump said. i think they should be held accountable. if they are doing their job and doing the right things, i don't

see what the problem is. why are they scared to fill out a questionnaire of what they have been doing? a lot of people are scared because there is a lot of waste. i just wanted to say that this morning. i agree with trump. thank you. host: that is william in florida. elon musk yesterday saying this is a very trivial task. lisa murkowski, the republican senator of alaska, had this to say about this effort that came up this weekend. if elon musk truly wants to understand what federal workers accomplished over the last week, you should get to know each department and agency and learn about the jobs he is trying to cut. public servants work hard to ensure our national security is protected. that planes land safely, that forest fires do not sprint our homes, that social security checks arrive on time, the breakthroughs needed to treat diseases go through.

the absurd we can emailed to justify their existence was not it. republican senator from alaska. the phone line for federal employees this morning is (202) 748-8003 if you want to share your reaction and how and if you responded. again, we will bump up those calls when and if you call in. meantime, this is walter from maryland, independent. caller: i cannot tell you over the last two years how many federal workers have been on the golf course. i am a tired. i am on the golf course. these guys are on the golf course getting paid. sitting there watching these guys for the past four years. 90% of the federal workforce works from home, which is showing you the u.s. government is bloated. to watch trump cut this government is the most beautiful thing i have ever seen. to watch these people in this area lose their minds is great.

they do nothing for us. the biggest cut i think trump could make right now that the american people would get behind is to change the name on the fbi building to the donald j. trump fbi building. if we could do that, we could cut a bunch of money, and the last thing i would like to point out to you, john, donald trump, and there is a lot out there that states no president can run for more than two consecutive terms, but donald trump will be eligible for a second term in 2028. so run in 2028, trump, and keep kicking there but -- their butt. we love it out here. host: the fbi directorhost: writing emailed to federal employees this weekend in the wake of this enough that without about five bullet points about what they did, the fbi through the office of directors is in

charge of all of our review processes, telling workers they should for now pause any responses at the justice department and the fbi. the threatening signals from musk were met with a mix of anger and amazement that anyone would issue such a blanket demand without consideration for the sensitive areas such as criminal investigations, legal confidentiality, or grand jury material. some supervisors have told their employees to wait for guidance from managers coming today before responding to the email, according to some of the officials. the new york times, the headline, staff urged not to obey elon musk's orders, how they put it in the new york times. this is chris, a federal employee from springfield, virginia. good morning. caller: hi. yes. my name is chris. i am a federal employee.

i responded to the elon musk email. i do that all the time anyway. people that think i do that is not true. i report every week to my supervisor. i have to report everything i did in the entire year, so this is not an issue. the issue is, why are they asking this from everybody in all agencies and not through their senior management? that is what an agency is. i just don't get it. host: what sort of geithner if, how? torespond have you -- what sort of guidance have you gotten on if, how to respond? have you gotten any guidance? caller: not yet, but we will. i have five things i did last week and i only worked three days last week. monday was a holiday and i was

on leave thursday. that i do not do anything is not true. i just don't know what this is all about. i don't know who is going to get it. i don't know why they need to know. they should be talking to their agency heads, not people like me. right? i'm sorry. i'm doing my job. that is what i do like everybody else. host: when elon musk says on x this is a pulse check for federal employees to make sure they are checking their emails, it is a trivial task, what you say? caller: i check my emails constantly. i check my emails all weekend long. i saw this when it came in. what does he think i was doing? i have been on my emails everyday probably for years. that is just what you do. that is what job is. i don't get any of this. i don't know what they think they are going to find, i guess.

host: do you mind saying how long you have been with the federal government? and has this made you rethink your federal service or no? caller: yeah. i mean, i am going to probably consider retiring early. i have been working for the federal government for about 34 years. i do what i do very well. i know what i'm doing. i have a lot of education to do what i do. so it is a loss for the government if i go, i suppose. again, we are not getting -- this is not a good atmosphere to work in. ok. it is really hard to stay on your mission, get your work done, and feel good when all you hear is all of this nasty, horrible, oh, guys are playing golf. i don't play golf during the workweek. i don't actually play golf. i'm sorry, i could not afford that. you know, i just don't see why

people don't understand that we are human beings too. we are your neighbors. we go to your stores. we get our cars fixed at the car places. we are just normal people. right? i just happen to work in this profession, and i liked it until now actually. this is the worst i ever experienced. it is just horrible when what you do is not respected. it is not honored. it is basically you are being turned into a criminal for doing your job. that makes people feel terrible. host: thanks for the call from springfield, virginia. al is in permits, massachusetts, republican. good morning. caller: good morning. first off, i want to remind everyone bill clinton went before congress and said the era of big government is over. did everyone forget that in the 1990's? meanwhile, the bureaucracy moves

along forget 70,000 employees decided to take an early buyout. how important can their job be? how virtuous and holy is their work every day if they don't feel the need to stay there? i mean, you have everyone has gone to the division of motor vehicles. that has not changed in 50 years. but these billionaires everyone seems to hate have allowed us to press a button on our device and get a package this afternoon. meanwhile, the post office is losing money. this whole promise of the great society under lyndon johnson, where is the great society? a $36 trillion failure. liberals, we have tried it your way. it hasn't worked. $36 trillion in the hole. apple announced this morning they are making investment in america due to the tariffs.

20,000 new high-paying jobs. so let's trust the process. trust this process of ending this era of big government like your shiny thing bill clinton said in the 1990's. host: that is out. this is john, a federal employee in florida. good morning. caller: morning. so i have to agree that the email comes out and everybody is up in arms because, what am i doing? what am i doing? i work for the federal government for a long time. work for the army, the post office, and i hate to say it, but there is a lot of miss efficiency. i think a lot of it comes down to the purchasing contracts of what they do. let me just take the post office for example. but it away from a vehicle that costs them roughly $4000 to

$5,000 a year to operate. their mid-gap vehicle was a mercedes that cost $40,000. that came with no warranty, at least not one to speak of because the dealerships were saying everything was nonrepairable. host: there is a postal service mercedes? caller: yeah, the mercedes stopgap in between the old llv and the new vehicles under contract to be manufactured. and the repairs were astronomical. they were spending $2000, three thousand dollars, $4000 per repair on the vehicles, which through the budget out of proportion. i want to know whose kid went to college on that contract that the post office was given? we were given no repair manuals for efficiency so we had to contact dealerships and manufacturers to figure out what was going on with the vehicles. same thing with the army. the army purchases these massive

vehicles from oshkosh and all these other defense contractors, and there is no guidance. it is not a normal vehicle. it is not a vehicle you can plug a scan tool in like you can a ford or a chevrolet. so the miss efficiency out there trying to diagnose, repair, and overall the -- and overhaul these vehicles, and you see these vehicles sitting for years and years and years on end because of a contract written up by some government bureaucrat. so yeah, there is a lot of miss efficiency. i see a lot of people sitting around doing -- they are working. let's not understand they are not working, but the fact is it takes so much to do one singular job because of all the red tape and everything else that you spend days upon days where it should be in the private sector hours upon hours to get the same accomplished. host: that is john in middleburg, florida, this morning. more from sunday's shows yesterday.

this is mike lawler of new york. he was on abc's "this week" and was asked about this email of what government employees did last week. this is what he said. [video clip] >> look. i don't know how that is feasible. a lot of federal employees are under union contract. what they are ensuring is every agency and department is effectively and efficiently doing their job. with a $7 trillion budget, there is no question that our government has become bloated and in many respects inefficient. and so the task at hand obviously for elon musk and the department of government efficiency at the direction of president trump is to find efficiencies and savings and

make sure that our federal workforce is doing their jobs and doing it effectively. we have many, many people who do a phenomenal job on behalf of the american people, but i think ultimately in any government when a new administration comes in, whether it is the state government, the local government, and i served at every level of government, you know, a new administration is always going to do a review and try to find efficiencies across the board. when you are staring down a $36 trillion in debt and counting, obviously something has to to -- host: mike lawler on yesterday's abc this week. this is peter welch, the democrat listing what he believes elon musk and doge did last week.

they attempted to access irs taxpayer data, accidentally fired workers researching the bird flu, fired hundreds of workers athe faa, risking fligsafety, got caught lying about doge savings. and the fifth one, threatened -- we are going through those and hearing from you with a special line for federal employees. (202) 748-8003. bill is on that line in springfield, virginia. good morning. caller: how are you doing? i am a retired federal worker of 45 years for the government. i tell you, this email from elon musk is insane. first of all, the threat of if you don't answer, you're fired. what about people who are sick, on leave, there are people who

are not in position to answer for one thing. second, the viewers and listeners who are thinking people are afraid to put in their five points for some odd reason, every job i had, i had to report to my boss on a weekly basis the key things i did. it goes on in every government office. you are reporting every week. the problem with elon musk is this will be out of context for individuals coming in. he won't have a clue of how it relates to anything else and it is plain stupid. as much work -- the other thing is much of the work the government does is classified. you can't say five key things you did if all of them are classified. there's no consideration for that, either. the whole thing is absolutely insanely ridiculous. doge is doing nothing but

creating a sense of tension and confusion. host: what agency or line of work were you in? caller: i worked for the department of the military army and the dod. the stuff he is doing is taking no consideration of the bigger picture. it's numbers and its power. host: what's the bigger picture? caller: the bigger picture is how it impacts -- how one office impacts the rest of the stuff. he's looking at numbers. the people he has working for him are computer hackers. they are not cpas or people who do accounting. they are hackers. so, there is no fraud that they are looking for. they are looking for ways to track places where they can gain power. host: that his bill in springfield, virginia. this is david out of west virginia, independent. good morning. caller: i'm a retired state

worker. every week, we had to fill out an activity report of what we had done. every day, we had to do a tna, which is your time. and we had a supervisor who checked it. if there were any discrepancies, he would let you know. if you are falsifying it, i know people who got in trouble. i would go in there and i would see people who were not doing their job, doing nothing. i agree with mr. musk and trump 100%. i guarantee you, there are people in washington who are not doing their job, who are staying home, falsifying their records, like the gentleman said. out golfing or whatever. i have seen it firsthand. i will personally guarantee you it is happening. i have seen it for 25 years when

i worked for the state. they can get by with it a lot easier in the federal government than you can in the state. host: that's david and west virginia. this is ella out of north carolina. good morning. caller: good morning. host: what do you think about this, ella? caller: this is not ella, this is emme. host: emma, go ahead. caller: yes. my thing is everybody needs to put a pause on it because it is all about money. yellow see the -- y'all don't see the dollar signs? it is all about money. i want to know where is it at? show us the facts. america wants to see the facts. y'all have a good day, goodbye. host: that is emma out of

noh carolina. this is the oversight committee democrats putting out this atent, saying consistent with our congressional oversight, we seek to understand wh en musk did last week to better the lives of the american people. saying failure to respond to them will mean his resignation. also, chris christie, a republican and critic of donald trump, his email to federal employees were brought up, this is what he had to say. >> chris, the trump administration has had some wins in these legal battles. a federal judge agreed they can put thousands of usaid employees on leave. any surprise there? take a look at all of the wins they have had. >> martha, look. i think if you follow an organized process, the executive will have a lot of authority to

be able to lay people off, reorder priorities within the government as a whole and within particular department as well. usaid as an agency, working closely with the state department. it's not that they can't do it. it's you can't do it in this haphazard way where you have one guy, elon musk, and his doge area, which is not part of the government, sending emails out. then you have people the president has appointed, in some instance, kash patel's instance, our senate confirm people saying no, disregard that. that's where the person at the top has to give appropriate direction. that has not come from the president of the united states. he's giving different opinions to different folks. giving different direction and that leads to this type of thing. that's where we will get in trouble in court if people sue. there is no process for these folks to be dealt with fairly

and appropriately. like any employee in the public or private sector needs to be dealt with. host: when it comes to usaid, more news on that front. notices sent sunday by the trump administration said they will eliminate 1600 jobs at usaid and place the small number of remaining employees on leave. that's the headline and the story from the washington post. this is james in missouri, republican, good morning. caller: good morning, this is james lance men of the living god. i want to say couple of things that will catch the ear of the american people, democrats, republicans and independents, also. this is part of a larger, systemic problem that americans have dealt with for a long time. look at the streets of america. it is evident that there is fraud, waste and abuse in our government, federal and state, etc. .

the commentary, they are indoctrinated by corrupt party. -- a corrupt party. the democrats don't have the respect of the american people. we voted in power. we didn't vote what we thought we want to come we voted what the law says. and the people are not respected it. take the hit. you are not eating a dough ball on the street. they need to take responsibility . they need to be responsible for their own actions and put the time they are wasting and condemning and pointing the finger at the american president. we, the american people, have voted him in for a reason. and that's because the majority of americans see the tremendous amount of waste, fraud, corruption, abuse, misuse, deceit, etc. it goes on and on.

this is an out-of-control problem. we can see it in the bills and policies the democratic party are voting in. there are more things that have to be done. how about calling trees and treason? -- treason treason? host: this is rick on the federal employee line. caller: good morning pre-how are you doing? host: doing well. can you say where you work and do you have any thoughts? caller: the department of veteran affairs. there was a comment i saw on c-span by a caller to pedro. he urged c-span to, during these times at least, open up an additional line for callers who seek to unite america. who can be common in our cause, whether republican, democrat or

independent, to find solutions for the current climate here. and it's bad. now, back to being a federal employee, i almost wish that you have limited the calls today to federal employees only. i will tell you personally, i'm an avid c-span listener, watcher, every day i start my day with you guys. it's almost infuriating to hear callers comment on things they have little to no knowledge upon at all. when it comes to this email that went out, a lot of problems. number one, it came to our email address on saturday -- addresses on saturday, when i would say 80% to 90 percent of federal employees were not on the clock, did not have access to our email and then urged to respond within 24 hours of a business day for us waking up this morning on our email accounts. and then lastly, i wish i could

have more time to discuss some of these things. but john, if this is the department of efficiency, why are they being so redundant? our primary system of work as veterans employees is called dbms. it tracks every keystroke that we make. it tracks every claim that we work on. and it also looks at the amount of time that it took us to complete that task. and then we get a scoring system whereby our quality is assessed. i don't understand why this email goes out, asking us to give bullet points of the work that we did last week, when it was already recorded on a daily basis with the primary system that we use. it's ridiculous. and it is very concerning as to why they have asked for this information. it's not necessary. those people calling in, who

talk about federal employees as if we are not living people, as if we are not republicans, democrats and independents, i happen to be a republican. let me just say this. it is shameful that you would, that you would include american workers, the federal american workers in this device of this -- divisiveness that has been going on for so long. it is shameful. we work for the american public. i happen to be an american veteran myself. i am upset with the entire process. thank you for taking my call. host: you mentioned you are a republican. did you vote for donald trump in georgia in 24? -- 2024? caller: i've never seen trump walk behind anyone. when he allowed putin to walk in

front of him as a u.s. army combat veteran, i was disgraced with it. i could not bring myself to vote for him in the second term. i could not vote for kamala harris. for the first time in my adult life, i did not cast a vote for the president of the united states. host: that is rick in georgia, a retired federal employee. vincent in georgia as well, in lilburn, georgia. caller: yes, how are you doing this morning? i'm an avid listener to c-span, retired from the military. -- both are my friends. i would say i was proud to work

with each and every one of them. we had a chain of command. so, at the end of the day, i retired from the military and i thank god for allowing me to have that experience. i then went into the postal service after retiring. so, at the end of the day, there are not necessarily any good or bad federal workers. because we get our orders through a chain of command. and the postal service, when i retired, i was a letter carrier. a letter carrier has to conduct himself proceeding the representation of the united states postal service. we have generally routes that we are given everyday.

there are no machines giving us are males, letters and our packages that we have to take. we generally had a minimum of 400, maybe 500 stops per day. that is getting in and out of a vehicle, going up to the door. delivering packages, whether they were small or large. for the customers. so, that being said, there is a chain of command within the postal service. so, i really would like people to understand that nothing is easy, whether you are in the military or you are a postal worker or federal employee. they have rules and regulations. they have different stuff. there is no sitting around. when i was in the post office before i retired from the post office, i had a 30 minute lunch

break. maybe a 15 minute or 10 minute break, just once a day. and you cannot go anywhere to eat. i had to bring my lunch. i had to do all of these things to continue to do what i needed to do to get the job done. host: that's vincent in georgia. this is beth. caller: good morning. i'm on leave today. if i have to respond to that email, i'm in trouble. i work for the pentagon -- dod, excuse me. not the panic on. i understand that the dod is asking us to hold back on that email. they are going through management or something. i have been a federal employee

for going on 20 plus years. i did not take the does buyout -- the doge buyout because i want to retire peacefully. i think it is appalling. there is waste everywhere. there is even waste in the current administration if you want to look at what they are doing. that's a matter of opinion. i just -- there is waste in every agency. they can take a scalpel and not just make one general blanket over ok, throw everything out. for this program and for that program out. see the effects of it. they think -- everyone thinks they are saving money this time. not necessarily. wait until the effects of this comes down in two or three or four years. host: the new york times

reporting about the instructions that went out from the department of defense. this is from their story today. the department of defense is responsible for reviewing the performance of its personnel and will conduct any review in accordance with its own procedures. that according to darren, the acting panic on official in charge of personnel, instructing pentagon employees to "for now, please pause any response." and that is where you are, beth? caller: that is where i am. i answer to my supervisor. we have performance reviews -- this fiscal year, it will be every month, a check in without supervisor. we get reviews, interview reviews. you can look at those and see where they go. you don't need to just ask everyone. because what i do may not be significant to you. what it is significant to my program. -- but it is significant to my program. there is a better way of doing

it. this way, watch in two or three years, the american people will see the effect. an phrase that money going to go? it's not going to go in my pocket. -- and where is that money going to go? it's not going to go in my pocket. congress is going to up the ante for their pocket. they will be -- for asking us to pay more. that is truly not good. host: that is beth in baltimore. this is virginia out of orlando, florida. good morning, line for democrats. caller: good morning, john. i worked for the federal government for 40 years. i just want to say this to you and to your listeners. i have listened to c-span since it came on the air in the 1970's. it's not fair to the federal employees, what has gone on here right now, even with c-span.

you should have someone with civilian personnel to come in and explain the process that government for federal employees have to deal with, with the evaluations. i worked for the department of defense for 40 years. and we had valuation every six weeks about what we were doing, how we did it, the process, what was your job and what did you do outside of your job duties? i have worked in a top-secret capacity as well. i want you to know that every federal -- there were one or two people in my four years that i

witnessed that did not do their jobs. they were reprimanded. they were verbally reprimanded, they were given a letter and then the process of being terminated. i have known of some being terminated for not doing their duties. i want to ask you -- to ask your audience a question. how many of them have worked on their job for 24 hours a day? i have. during the acquisition center, there comes every year, come september, the new fiscal year, you have contracts that you have to get awarded and you have to do it over a period of time. i have stayed on my job for 24 hours. i've had my family bring my close to me on my job and i washed up in the bathroom and i continued. when i first went to it for the

government in 19 -- work for the government in 1968, i knew i was doing outstanding work. my super bowl was her -- my supervisor told me i hope you understand that you are colored, if i give you an outstanding performance review, they will not like it but you are doing a great job. that was unfair. later on, the union got involved and we began to get awarded for the duties that we did. all of my work was outstanding. i received a bonus. i don't know who these people are that don't do work that work for the federal government. i've heard that but where are they? everybody i know, democrats, republicans, independents, they worked hard. we took pride in our work. we went beyond the call of duty.

we did what nobody else would do and we made sure that in our evaluations that we were outstanding because we had pride in our work. elon musk, i want to tell you this, john. i want you to remember this. and i want everybody that i am talking to out there to remember this. elon musk is going to start a digital company. and it is dealing with money. what do you think he will do with all of that information that he's receiving now from the federal government? it's unfair for donald trump to come in, i'm not going to talk about him. we know his character. you knew his character when you voted for him. but, to allow somebody to take a chainsaw? what about a scalpel? i was involved in a -- but i

never went out the gate, i always got a job. most of the times when government has a reduction, those who are eligible to retire or retire. -- retire retire. our government is going to suffer. i agree with the caller who called in before me. our government is going to suffer because there are things that federal employees have to do that no other employees have to do. host: running short on time, we want to get a few more callers in. especially those on the federal employee line. joel in washington, d.c., go ahead. -- joe in washington, d.c., go ahead. caller: my name is shel. host: go ahead. caller: the way it is being done

is unlawful. from my perspective, most of the bloat is in the management, in the higher ups. not with the people who do the real work. there are three points i wanted to say. about that email. host: go ahead. i'm running short on time so run through it. caller: the email was disrespectful and unprofessional. that email should have been sent to congress who are also government employees. whoever made the comment about federal government employees being on the golf course, ask them if they were on annual leave which we earn. we can be on the golf course if we are on leave. also, there are people who said we don't do work during inclement weather. that is another live. we have options when the weathe is -- weather is inclement.

some workers must work and must report to the office. so stop saying that because we are not in the office, we are not working. the last thing i will say is what we did last week, as far as the email, my work is measured by my work product. i my performance evaluation. and we take annual band early -- federally mandated training which i wish trump and his members of congress would take. this is creating a hostile work environment and that is all i wanted to say. host: that is shel in d.c. this is rhonda in illinois, democrat. go ahead. caller: yeah. i think the american people need to wake up and that it's all about the money. if they can cut all of these

people, they don't have to pay all of these people. then they can give tax cuts to the wealthy. donald trump, that's all he cares about. he cares about three things. money, power, and his stupid last name which is as phony as a three dollar bill. host: joel in la crosse, wisconsin. independent, good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to say i am 100% disabled veteran service-connected. my view is that if you ask the people that are on the lines that do the day-to-day stuff, they know how to save money. they know where the system is inefficient. the problem is it hits a wall when it goes to the higher echelons of government. and if you could have the bottom-up people outlining how

to save money in government and to not necessarily bypass their higher ups, but to give them an idea of where to really clean up efficiency, i think that would go a long way to help in this situation. host: that is joel in wisconsin. deborah in parkersburg, west virginia, good morning. caller: good morning. i am calling in to tell all americans they need to go to congress.gov and read what their congress is doing. andrew biggs introduced a bill that repeals obamacare. the bill repeals the patient's protection act, the and the health care and education reconciliation act of 2010. it will be in effect until the year 2026.

if they want to know what the government is doing and wasting our money on and everything else, they need to understand and read what congress is doing. host: is a federal employee, are you planning to respond to this email that came out on saturday? -- as a federal employee, are you planning to respond to this email that came out on saturday? caller: no. i don't respond to anything trump does. host: how long have you been a federal employee? caller: over 25 years. host: do you want to say what agency? caller: no, i don't. host: that is deborah in parkersburg, west virginia. our last caller. stick around, lots to talk about. including taking a look at the week ahead in congress. daniella diaz joins us from notus.

emmanuel macron arrived for a meeting with president trump at the white house. we will go through what they are talking about today and the president's meetings with other foreign leaders this week. also today, dawn royal and andrew mcclenahan of the united council of welfare fraud will join us to talk about efforts to track down fraud abuse in public assistance programs. that is this morning on "washington journal." ♪ >> looking to contact your members of congress? c-span is making it easy for you. with our 2025 congressional directory. get essential contact information for government officials all in one place. this compact spiral found --

spiral-bound guide contains information for every house and senate member of the 119th congress. contact the president's cabinet, federal agencies and state governors. the congressional directory costs $32.95 plus shipping and handling. scan the code on the right or go to c-spanshop.org to preorder your copy today. ♪ >> 100 years ago this past august was the beginning of what's often been called the great war. world war i had military casualties of over 9 million and millions more of civilians. professor sean of hard college located in new york state -- of bard college located in new york state has written books on german history, russian history, the ottoman empire, communism,

world war ii and one titled july 1914. his last book will be the focus of our conversation. world war i was triggered in late june of 1914, by the assassination of archduke franz ferdinand and his wife, sophie. they were gunned down by a serbian 19-year-old. >> he talks about his book july 1914, countdown to war on this episode of book notes plus with rian lamb. book notes plus is available on the c-span now free mobile app or wherever you get your podcasts. >> washington journal continues. host: we like to take a look at the we can head -- week ahead in washington. we are joined by daniella diaz. starting with the congressional

budget, where are we today? guest: lets flashback a week. that's important in the context of where this is. senate republicans move forward with their own version of the budget resolution, that would split up the mast agenda on border security, taxes and legislation into two bills. what we will see today and tomorrow is house republicans, speaker mike johnson talking about having one big, beautiful bill. that is the drama that is taking place on capitol hill and has been taking place on capitol hill since the republican trifecta took over in office. whether they could enact this agenda which means they would not need democratic votes to pass this legislation, this massive bill that they want to push forward. the drama being trump endorsed the house version for one bill and senate republicans

are moving forward with number two as their plan b. speaker mike johnson doesn't have the votes. host: why is it important, two bills versus one? what's the difference? guest: they need all of the votes. there are a lot of personalities in congress. trying to get all of them united , because republicans have such a slim majority, they can only afford to lose one republican vote behind a bill as important as this one to enact the trump agenda. that's why they want to push forward one bill, in hopes that if there are certain provisions in that legislation that one republican or two republicans don't agree with, they agree with the others. this would extend trump's 2017 tax cuts and would have the lien's of dollars in border security measure. -- billions of dollars in border

secured he measures. that is the discussion that is taking place and why we are seeing a lot of political infighting within the republican conference on both sides about how to handle this. host: when it comes to the congressional budget, the ongoing cuts by the permit -- department of government efficiency is playing into that. president trump on saturday at the congressional political action conference spoke about his efforts to streamline the federal government. this is what president trump had to say. host: we are removing all of the unnecessary, incompetent and corrupt bureaucrats from the federal workforce. that's what we are doing. under the buyouts, we offer federal employees more than 75,000 federal bureaucrats. they have volunteered to surrender their taxpayer funding. we want to make government smaller and more efficient. we want to keep the best people

and we will not keep the worst people. we are doing another thing. if they don't report for work, we are firing them. in other words, you have to go to office. right, right? look at them. if you don't report to work -- that's another scam. host: that was president trump on saturday at the conservative political action conference. if you want to watch the conference in its entirety, you can do so on our website at c-span.org. we are talking about the week ahead in washington this morning. we are asking you to join the conversation. phone lines are republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. you can send us a text, that number is that (202) 748-8003 -- is at (202) 748-8003. we will join you throughout this half hour as we are joined by daniella diaz.

we talked about the ongoing budget. along with the budget and the reconciliation process, there is also the appropriations process. where are we as far as funding the government for the past 14 days from now? guest: there is no agreement. that means how much they are planning to spend to fund the government this next fiscal year. publicans are blaming democrats saying they have not -- republicans are blaming democrats, saying they have not brought forth any good faith negotiations. democrats are saying republicans are not negotiating in good faith. lots of back and forth in the last two weeks as they try to figure out how they will fund the government because government funding runs out on march 14 and we are running out of time. host: we have been running under acr, continuing resolution. is there the potential for another one of these to kick the

appropriations fight down the road as it were? guest: that is in the conversation but republicans hate continuing resolutions unless it cuts government spending. one of the agencies being the department of defense. then, a lot of republicans and democrats arguing you can't waste funding on the department of defense. you need to make sure that the numbers are appropriate to what they need each year. it could be a national security issue. that is why they don't like using continuing resolutions. if you remember a flashback to oh my goodness, a year ago, that's how kevin mccarthy lost the speaker's job. he put forward a continuing resolution. lots of questions they are trying to figure out. appropriators would like to see government funding bills that cut spending. republicans specifically. also, aid to states that need

disaster funding. those sorts of things are huge priorities as we continue through the year to address. host: can congress this week walk and chew gum on this? do appropriations for 2025 which is what we are in right now, and then also budget for 2026 and all of that reconciliation process that you were talking about? guest: i mean, if we look at how congress has been run the last few years, they are not good at handling things at the same time. these are two major issues they have to address. there were crowds are not part of the budget by reconciliation debate. that is a republican issue but republicans have the majority in the house and senate and white house. they have a lot on their plate. it's likely that these issues will collide. that's what democrats are saying. that's what republicans are worried about. expect a lot of drama on this. host: when you say democrats are

not part of the budget debate, explain why that is and why republicans can do this without democratic votes. guest: i'm not trying to be too in the weeds because it can get very nerdy very quickly. reconciliation is a process the majority party can use in the house and senate to move forward legislation with a simple majority. the bill has passed the house with a simple majority. this is what happens in the senate. instead of the 60 votes needed to break the filibuster, republicans or democrats, this is how they passed the inflation reduction act. democrats used this tool when they have the majority. they can pass legislation with 50 votes. they have the majority in the senate. the only way they can pass these measures is it they are budget measures. if they can prove -- so, that is why they can pass these bills or this massive bill

with lots of provisions, without any democratic votes. that's the trick here too, right? they need every single republican in both chambers to get behind this legislation. so, it's going to be really tricky. uniting conferences is difficult in congress. host: it's another busy week on capitol hill. daniella diaz is with us as we take you through the budgeting and appropriation process. phone lines for democrats, republicans and independents. this is kevin out of dunkirk maryland -- dunkirk, maryland, republican. caller: good morning. i had a comment. i delivered packages washington, d.c. for 15 years. i was in and out of every single federal building. all i would see was, goodness, people playing video games on their computer all of the time. couldn't get anybody to sign for

a package. it was very inefficient from what i saw. can't say everybody. but i also knew a few people that worked in the federal government. they would get these things called a clicker on their computer. their mouse would click every so often to make it look like they were busy. host: suffice it to say you agree with the efforts to reduce the federal workforce? caller: absolutely. i talked to one of my guys in my area that owns an automobile shop. he said he's never seen so many federal employees going on the extravagant vacations in the past three years. he's just never seen it. host: kevin, got your point prayed we talked about in the first half-hour hour of the

washington journal, the reaction to the email from the department of government efficiency. the email officially came from hr at the u.s. government. but elon musk, leading this effort. who will you be talking to this week in response to this effort and this deadline tonight for federal employees to respond with bullet points about what they accomplished last week? guest: republicans who, again, have the house and majority -- majority in the house and senate have supported elon musk's efforts to cut down government spending and the steps he's taken to have less government workers or have them leave their jobs. i think they are the ones that we will be asking questions or i will in a few hours because i will head to capitol hill, asking him do you think he's gone too far? and having federal workers prove as bullet points what they did in the last week. some of these measures or some of these government officials that were asked to do this could

be disclosing government secrets. we saw tulsa gabbard tell her office they should not respond to this email because it deals with classified information. we saw kash patel tell his office respond to this email. is this going to be the extent of elon musk's power or cutting government spending in the federal government? we are waiting to see whether republicans say that maybe he has gone too far. host: lisa murkowski over the weekend, her tweet that she put out our public workforce deserves to be treated with dignity and respect for the unheralded jobs they perform. the absurd weekend email to justify this existence -- their existence -- guest: she is concerned. i spoke to her last week specifically, that the cuts to government funding that musk is putting forward could affect energy projects in

alaska and wildlife conservation efforts in her state. she has seen it directly and that's why she's speaking out against this. she's not the only one trait we have seen other republicans come forward, saying they are sensing that back home, some of their government officials are being affected by this and losing jobs when they are essential and need to continue working for the federal government. host: this is victoria out of chester lind, ohio, line for dinner kratz. good morning. caller: i hope everybody -- host: line for democrats, good morning. caller: i hope everybody is satisfied with the way our government is going. what will it take to drain your account? what will it take? thank you. host: that's victoria in ohio. craig in florida in palm coast, florida, independent. good morning. caller: good morning. 2 million emails.

this is a duplication of effort. these guys are being watched over by their supervisors. i can't imagine somebody opening up 2 billion emails -- 2 million emails and doing anything with them. thank you. host: plenty of discussion on this does effort. what's been the most interesting part of this from your perspective on capitol hill? you talk about the dynamic of democrats responding and republicans responding. at what point do you think it will, besides a lisa murkowski email, what will be a sign to you that this has gone too far? guest: this email over the weekend from elon musk asking federal workers to prove they are working could be the extent of his power and the hold he could have over the federal government, when we are seeing republican leaders like kash patel and tulsi gabbard and others tell there

workforce don't respond. up until this point, we have seen the same people praise elon musk for moving forward on this process to try to cut the federal government workforce. this could be the end of what they praise for what he's trying to do. he himself tweeted over the weekend that federal workers will receive this email. we expect them to respond or they will resign. or we will count that as a resignation, correction. what we are seeing is there will be people who will not be responding who will not lose their jobs. that is one sign of his lack of power considering people were endorsing him. host: paul in louisiana, republican. good morning. caller: we do have a problem in

trying to meet our obligations, concerning the needs of people. but, if we don't have control over spending, we will have control over anything. i think this is a good direction for people to take. and stop fussing and let's work together, eliminate heavy debt and make it right for our country. billions, trillions of dollars we are behind. we need to shut it down. host: daniella diaz, as republicans talk about budgeting for the next fiscal year, are they talking about eliminating debt or reducing the deficit, not adding to the debt as it were? what's the top line here? will we see an actual debt

reduction? guest: that's what a lot of republicans would like to see. what we are seeing for the specific house resolution they are trying to put forward would contain $2 trillion cuts in the national deficit. it would increase the 2017 tax cuts that trump put forward a few years ago. that would add to the deficit. it's a balancing act between republicans to try to figure out how to, of course, put forward their provisions that they want to see. but also, cut back on the national deficit. we are seeing people who are holy against increasing the national deficit support this resolution they will put forward for a vote tomorrow. the bigger problem here being moderate vulcans who don't want to see cuts to essential programs such as medicaid or -- moderate republicans don't want to see cuts to essential programs such as medicaid or

snap. host: just a reminder for viewers, where we are financially in this country, the u.s. national debt right now is at 36 $.5 trillion. this year, we are running a $2 trillion deficit. the debt being the accumulation of all of those deficits over the years. the u.s. debt clock is a great place to go for a breakdown of federal spending to try to understand these numbers. there it is, taking. you can see the debt per citizen and per taxpayer on the u.s. debt clock. this is josephine out of livingston, new jersey. caller: good morning. my concern is that, unfortunately, we are playing like a magician. i want you to look over here because they don't want you to look over there. what am i saying? talking about the budget, they put it under the guise of we have a layering debt. it was so bad in all of that.

we are the only nation in the world that writes the law and does not fund it when it writes the law. that is simple. but we don't do things the right way. having said that, they are going to give a $4 trillion tax cut. $4 trillion on the back of medicaid. 40% goes to children. 60% goes to seniors. they got rid of the cfpb. why? elon musk, you don't want him to look over their shoulder. they brought back 40 billion dollars. they were our watchdog to protect the little guy. anything to protect us, screw us. give it to the rich. it's like the old saying, steal from the poor, give to the rich. host: that is josephine in new jersey. what do you want to pick up on?

guest: that's interesting for you that's what a lot of republicans heard at town halls. rich mccormick took a town hall in georgia. he's a republican from georgia. he had a full house and lots of grievances from his constituents, saying that exact thing. they do not want cuts to their medicaid. they do not want cuts to snap. they do not like elon musk's overreaching of the government and they want him to answer to that. it is rarer and rarer these days that we see republicans have in person town halls. they do virtual town halls and town halls over the phone. it's interesting to see them have them over the weekend, coming back from recess. congress was not in session in the house. but, it is what a lot of voters and more moderate districts are hearing, which is why we will see a lot of them including the congressional hispanic conference, who are latinos in congress that are republican. a lot of them are presenting

moderate or swing districts who are planning to meet with speaker mike johnson at 5:00 today to ask why or at least get some reassurance that they will not cut medicaid, snap, these essential programs for their constituents. lots of drama in that sense. host: that leads to alexis's question from x, with divisions within the house gop, how is speaker mike johnson managing -- guest: that has been speaker mike johnson's problem when he took the gavel, trying to unite his conference and make sure he does not necessarily make any promises to certain members. he has been different from kevin mccarthy in that sense. but, he does have to figure out a way to make sure every single member is able to go back to the district and when their election. in the terms.

he is going to take this meeting with moderate republicans in a few hours. he will have to also speak to his conservative members who are also outspoken against sudden provisions of this legislation. it's going to be interesting to see how he provides that needle. that is what we write on capitol hill, a story of this is a test for speaker mike johnson. all of these moments on capitol hill are tests for him. host: jimbo in california says he wants to look farther down to the appropriations process, saying does ms. diaz see a government shutdown in march as a near certainty? guest: i don't like to make predictions because if you asked me friday in december when, if you remember, elon tanked through a tweet that c.r. that they were going to pass that thursday afternoon, i thought maybe there would be -- i was

covering this in person on capitol hill, leading up to it before the holidays. they were able to pass a bill last minute on friday afternoon that narrowly avoided a shutdown. i did not see that coming. so, i will say i don't think any predictions when it comes to congress. but i do think there is a handful of republicans that would like to see a shut down. their constituents who are from very conservative districts would like to see a shutdown. those voices have grown louder considering they are now the majority in the house and senate and that donald trump is in the white house. i would say it's worth keeping and i on to see if it happens -- an eye on to sivan happens march 14. -- see if it happens march 14. host: this is lisa. if you could turn your television down, we could hear your question better. caller: ok. what i want to say is this right

here. elon musk and donald trump, it's not about trimming the fat, it's trimming oversight. the fact is the social programs, people have to be very careful what reality that you are in. because the reality that they are telling you that they are doing is trimming oversight. now, medicare, social security, food stamps, snap, all of those social programs that i know that donald trump received. they want to play into that reality with donald trump and elon musk. i would like to ask the guest a question. what does consumer protection, what does that have to do with trimming the fat?

this is our protection from big corporations that they can't come in and pray on the american people. what does that have to do with cutting that program? is that fat too? host: that is lisa. guest: the prevalent -- problem being republicans saw the cfpb as a democratic led institution. democrats put forward the idea of having this agency. i covered elizabeth warren's presidential campaign when i was at cnn five years ago. she was the person that put forward the idea of having the cfpb and that has not been able to be disconnected in terms of having that agency associated with democrats. that's why we saw republicans, elon musk, cut that agency and its funding.

that's a lot of what's happening here. this is what happens when there is a new president. this is what happens when there is new majorities in congress. a lot of this becomes political. and unfortunately, that's a lot of how washington operates and that seems to be what happened with the cfpb and why republicans chose to cut it. host: we it is the three-year anniversary of the russian invasion of ukraine. how much discussion will that get on capitol hill this week? guest: defenders will try to make this a huge issue today. republican leaders are not eager to send more money to ukraine anytime soon. that is a problem. democrats very staunch defenders of helping ukraine in its efforts to end rushes war -- russia's or in ukraine. there are some republicans who

are very supportive of having ukraine aid. the majority of conservative members do not want to help ukraine anymore in its efforts. we saw president trump last week essentially blame ukraine for the war. while we will see members try to bring attention to this, it will not be [indiscernible] host: daniella diaz is a reporter at notus. later, we will talk about public assistance programs and efforts to trackraud and abuse. we will be joined by two members of the united council on welfare fraud. first, more of your phone calls. it is our open forum coming up after this break. start calling in now and we will get to those calls right after the break.

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>> democracy. it is not just an idea. it is a process, a process shaped by leaders elected to the highest offices and entrusted to a select few guarding its basic principles. it is where decisions are made and the nation's course is charted. democracy in real time. this is your democracy at work. this is c-span, giving you your democracy unfiltered. "washington journal" continues. y'all you can watch -- host: you can watch the house and senate on c-span and c-span2. today, a look at donald trump and the three-year anniversary of the russian invasion of

ukraine. that taking place at the brookings institution you can watch on c-span at 10:00. atoon today, speaker mike johnson will talk about the upcoming budget process. that even is taking place and being hosted by americans for prosperity. c-span2 for that, c-span.org, and the free c-span now app. also discussion othe cost of living featuring representative davids of kansas from the progressive policy institute in d.c. finally, veterans' affairs officials testify on modernization before the house veterans affairs subcommittee, 3:00 eastern, c-span3.

a lot going on today. you can check your listings. now, it is our open forum. the phone lines are yours. now is your chance to call in. we will begin with shirley in frederick, maryland. caller: good morning. i'm calling in. i was a democrat but i changed to republican. i have several things here to talk about. the one main thing is i am a retired federal employee. i have been retired for 12 years. i'm listening to all of these reports on retirement and my local newspaper about people getting laid off, crying, what am i going to do and stuff. when clinton came into office

with al gore and the hammer thing that he did, i got caught in the downsizing. i had a sister employed with the government back then and i was with the department of defense and she was with doe, the department of energy, and she got caught in in. we got into the first one in 1993, downsizing, around easter time. my grandmother passed away that week. easter was on a sunday and i go back to work on a monday, and i was downsized and so was she. and then, nobody stood up for us. we did not go to the newspaper. we just packed up and went out. we had to go on with our lives. i believe he had two others,

clinton did, downsizings within his two terms. and obama, i cannot remember what he had. but i do know clinton and al gore was really bad in his two terms. host: thank you for sharing your experiences. tonight at midnight is the deadline for federal employees to respond to the email they received on saturday requesting they send an email with a list of five things they accomplished last week. elon musk said failure to respond would be seen as a resignation by federal employees. that getting a lot of attention over the weekend and likely today as well when the house and senate return. this is barb in cedar rapids, iowa, democrat, good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. yesterday, i was driving and listening to c-span. i was so disappointed that you

played the entire speech, incoherent rambling speech packed full of lies, from donald trump at cpac which has become a very hateful group of people, by the way. no fact-checking. when he says that, why does c-span not come on and say, that is not true, that is not true? all he does is lie. if people keep hearing it, they will never get out of that disinformation bubble. thank you. host: barbara, before you go, are you still with us? caller: yes, i am. host: just so you understand, the idea for us is to allow people to see things unfiltered, to watch it in their entirety. we certainly talk about these events on shows like "washington journal." but the philosophy here is it is

best to let you see it and let you experience things unfiltered, whether it is events like cpac or on capitol hill. republican and democratic conventions, to give you the opportunity to watch it yourself. caller: i understand that. unfortunately, there are too many people that are just so brainwashed by him. hearing it on a respectable source like c-span without fact-checking solidifies it in their mind that he is right. it is so obviously wrong. i just wish you could somehow, and i know this is a recorded speech that you replayed, that somehow they could come and say, as other channels do, this is not true. people need to hear it. host: i think we aired the speech over the weekend live when it happened. in terms of your idea on fact-checking, would you want to see that on the floor of the

house and senate, jumping in on coverage of the house and senate saying this is true, this is not true? and how do you do that? caller: and on both sides. if the democrats are telling something that is not true, run a chiron across the screen that this is proven false. i don't know. i am so afraid for this country with the disinformation. i do not know if we will ever recover from him making him believe everything they do not hear from the right wing propaganda wing is fake news. it is terrifying. it really is. i understand people should be able to make up their own minds about stuff. their minds are kind of brainwashed. for lack of a better word. thank you. i appreciate your time. host: that is barb in iowa.

chris, jacksonville, florida, republican, good morning. caller: good morning. a flip side of the caller you had on, i wanted to tell you thank you. there is a lot of noise out there now. i appreciate your fact-focused, balanced reporting. i spent a bit of time on whitehouse.gov reading for myself what the president has been doing. it is very difficult to get true. with a combination of that and you guys, i wanted to tell you thank you. host: nita in d.c., good morning. caller: i wanted to talk about the federal workers. i used to work in the federal building doing security. when i say a lot of them, not all of them, take a lot of smoke

breaks. some of them were just working there, not doing nothing. some of them was like bringing video games to work or playing games. it was horrible. i also wanted to say something about why did he get rid of the consumer protection bureau. who is going to help the consumers? who is going to help us? host: when it comes to cuts in the federal government, what do you want to see? it sounds like you are in favor of some cuts. caller: when it comes to the federal government, what cuts do i want to see? host: it sounds from your comments you are in favor of some cuts but concerned about others. caller: yeah. because i know there is some good workers. i think they should reply to

that emailed. yeah, what are you doing? some people do not belong there. they are just playing games and taking 30 and 40 smoke breaks. they have been there 30 years. give that job to someone else. give it to someone younger that will do the work. that is how i feel about it. host: this is albert and the magnolia state, democrat, good morning. caller: good morning. the reason i am calling is committees in congress have been suing the executive branch forever. when is the democratic party and congress going to sue the president, executive, because they are taking their power they have. they say this is authorized by congress, the president is overstepping his bounds. they want the court to do it.

somebody has to be able to have standing to take it to the court. if a committee in congress can sue and executive for not showing up for a subpoena, it should be logical that the democratic party as a whole in congress can sue to have the court look at what the president is doing. as far as firing, there is a way to do it and a way not to do it. when did twitter or x become the official channel for government information, the government command channel network, to do business? that is all i have. host: one story today on another executive branch change getting attention, the trump administration has ousted the head of the government's deportation force, reportedly because president trump was

upset with the slow pace of deportations. this is in the washington times today. caleb had been mr. trump's pick to take over customs enforcement but the president became disillusioned his promise of mass deportations has not materialized. ice said mr. vitello has been reassigned. that is a close approximation of mr. trump's first week in office. in contrast, mr. biden's team averaged about 840 people a day. mexican officials reported last week repay sherry should had dropped from 570 a day in 2024 to 499 inhe first four weeks of donald trump's second term.

this is marvin in atlanta, republican, good morning. caller: i just want to say to the federal workers, i worked at the railroad 30 years but i was never guaranteed a job. there is no guarantee. you could get laid off and have financial problems but that is what is happening. we are having financial problems in america and something has to be done. i know it is going to be messy and people are going to holler but something has got to be done or it is going to be a lot messier than this. thank you very much. host: buffalo, new york, debbie, independent. caller: i want to remind all republicans that the millions of people being fired and laid off will vote blue in the midterms. thank you.

host: larry, new jersey, democrat, good morning. caller: good morning, john. thank you for all the work that you and the people with you do. i would like to report a federal employee playing a lot of golf and spending an exorbitant amount of money doing it. i think everybody knows his name. host: do you want to say the name, larry? caller: yes, it is mr. trump. host: that is larry in new jersey. this is sheila in massachusetts, republican, good morning. caller: thank you, john, for taking my call. i am so tired of hearing trump, all the trump negative aspects. i wish a few times she would ask these democrats if they know what his convictions were about and what other they keep talking about.

so far, i do not remember seeing donald trump on any golf courses in the month he has been president. i really wish people would give him a chance. if there is shenanigans going on in the federal government with our money, we have a right to know. there is not a business around that does not get audited regularly to see that their money is being spent efficiently for that company to be successful. i think donald trump, maybe you do not like his personality or the people he has chosen to work with him, but we need to know where all of this money is going. specifically in ukraine, that there is no accountability to what they are doing with that money. when i heard they were sending designers to new york and japan and whatnot for shows on our going, there is something wrong with check -- our dime, there is

something wrong with that. our retirement funds are reportedly going short in five or 10 years. i hope people settle down. but see what he can prove and do about our budget -- let's see what he can prove and do about our budget. thank you very much. host: two question about golfing and the previous caller's point, philip bump taking a look at that issue. that is according to the numbers fight it by bump. you can read that story yourself if you would like. cheryl in houston, independent, good morning. caller: good morning. for all of my parents' lives in my husband's and i's lives, we have been republicans when still my favorite president george

herbert walker bush and his wife moved back to houston. my parents went to church with them. what i want to talk about is the ascendancy -- insanity of a man, elon musk, who is not from the united states and knows nothing about how the government works and has no respect for our constitution and is basically running the country pretty is running circles around donald trump. donald trump wants access to all of elon musk's money so elon musk can keep buying elections for him. what bothers me more than anything is the insane cuts to all of the research for deadly diseases, especially cancer. i live in houston where md anderson is located. md anderson is the largest cancer research and treatment facility in the entire world. the statistics on cancer are one

out of every two men and one out of every 2.5 women at some point in their lives will receive a cancer diagnosis. it is one of the most expensive diseases and nastiest diseases anyone could contract. and to cancel all of the research, especially the nih facilities, when you cut off that research, it cuts it off for years. it is totally insane. what i do not understand, donald trump is one of five children. the youngest child in the family, robert, donald trump's little brother, died of cancer during trump's last year of office when he was president the first time. when he was asked about it, trump remarked cancer was a really nasty disease and his brother, robert, suffered a lot

from it. donald trump said his brother robert was the best friend of his life. i cannot imagine why he would let all of the cancer research programs, the funding stop, why he would want anyone else to die from cancer, and especially why he would let a man not from america who knows nothing about how the government works, who has no respect for our constitution, basically have the power to decimate a whole lot of very important functions of the government. thank you. host: that is cheryl in houston. jean, good morning. caller: i want to know how they let trump up there away with everything. it is like everybody is afraid of him. he is a narcissist and the biggest liar.

look what he did when he was in there for years ago, eight years ago, whatever. he has had four years to put all of this together. all he wants is revenge. and if you do not do what i say, then he is just a horrible person. host: in miami, republican, good morning. caller: good morning. it is $5 for eggs. why is president trump not lowering the prices on eggs? host: doug, hot springs, arkansas, independent, good morning. caller: good morning. it caught my attention about the debt clock. i would like to say this, they need to take that down in new york and get rid of the debt

clock and quit intimidating people with it. we know where all of the money is going. host: where is it going? caller: debt, all the industries, brent is going up. the price of products have gone up so much. it is price gouging. it is costing our government to operate. the military we have to support. it is just a way of intimidating people. take the clock down, get rid of it. host: the u.s. national debt at usdebtclock.org if you want to see real-time updates. democrat in new jersey, good morning. caller: good morning. i have a question. i am a retired federal worker.

my wife is a federal worker. i have questions for all of these prior new -- yes, hi. host: you have a question? don't listen to your tv, just 3-3 your phone. caller: i have a question to all of these fired federal employees, i am a retired federal employee. my wife is a federal employee. i have a question to all the fired employees. who did you vote for? did you vote for donald trump? you voted for him and he took your job. how do you feel now? huh? you voted for donald trump and he took your job. how do you feel? to all of these federal employees without jobs -- republican federal employees without jobs, how do you feel now? host: this is edwin, republican,

good morning. caller: thank you very much, love your show. i love tropical i love god. i would like to pray -- i love trump's, i love god. i would like to pray again. our father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. give us this day our daily bread, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. for thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. and we pray he will keep your hand on this country, you will keep your hand on israel, you will keep your hand on donald trump. we do not need a president like kamala harris smoking blunts and drinking beer. we need a man that will stand up for our country. we love your show and we love you. host: that is kevin in illinois. this is janet, independent, good morning. caller: that gentleman just before me -- hello, hello, are you there?

host: i am listening, janet. caller: i heard the little bell ringers. the gentleman before said a prayer that was wonderful. the gentleman that called from new jersey is example number one because i am also a retired federal employee. there is a lot of waste. the gentleman from new jersey proves his point. you need to cut many of us out. i'm ashamed to say i get a check every month from opm and i sometimes do not even think that i deserve it myself. that is my comment. host: what is the check, federal retirement benefits? caller: yes, irs, opm, i am retired. i know that there is waste everywhere. host: you mind saying what you get a month in retirement benefits? caller: nearly $5,000 a month. host: how many years did you work in the federal government?

caller: 32. i have one more comment i want to make. i have been listening to all of the callers. you have three lines. elon musk needs to be hired by you guys. you have three lines. how come when you answer phone lines, you ask democrat, republican, independent, the lines are always busy so there is someone waiting on all the lines. have a blessed day. host: that is janet on the independent line. this is paul on the line for democrats out of miami. good morning. caller: good morning. i have just got to say this is a first. after covid, that was the new norm. now this is the new norm. just two weeks ago, people were showing up to their federal jobs

that they said were not going to be touched like the v.a. i know some people that worked at the v.a. because i wanted to do some volunteer work for ptsd, people that suffer from ptsd. that is because they are overlooked severely. that was pre-covid. after covid, i could not do anything. my friends are telling me two weeks ago, they show up and there is almost 100 people that could not even get into the building. now with this email, we have the higher-ups in certain departments saying do not respond to the email, to the report but yet the people lower down are being told they need to fill out the reports. why are the people that does not

have the higher clearances having to fill out this report of what they have done if the keystrokes are recorded but the higher-ups do not? it is not making sense. host: some agencies are urging their staff not to respond to that email. some agencies are urging staff to respond. there have been various stories on it today including the new york times, the washington post, the wall street journal, all the major papers have a story on this topic. some pushback coming from the department of defense. policy gabbard of national intelligence ordered all officers not to respond in a message to intelligence officials. kash patel, the fbi director, wrote an email to the employees telling workers they should for now pause on any responses.

we will see what happens today. the email saturday gave until midnight tonight deadline for federal employees to respond with what they accomplished last week. this is tim out of florida, republican, good morning. caller: good morning. i have a question for congress. the federal government is being reduced, which i agree with. it is a behemoth. but i do not hear anything about the congressional staffers and congressional offices being subjected to the same level of reduction. thank you. host: one of the reasons is the separation of powers issue. the congressional staff are part of the legislative branch. what elon musk is focusing on for federal employees is the executive branch. that would be something that would quickly fall into a separation of powers issue.

caller: ok, but i am a republican, if the republicans are in support of what president trump is doing, and i am also to some extent, maybe not to the extent he is doing it, they should get on board and cut their staffs by 8% to 10%. host: congressional doge is what you are saying? caller: if they have 1000 employees across congressional offices, i know they have more than that, cut 80 people out of that staff just like they are cutting 8% out of the other offices in the federal government. host: this is johnny out of granite falls, washington, independent. good morning to you. caller: thanks for taking my call. i am calling from couple of reasons quickly. i think the , they are basically trying to replace federal employees with loyalists to donald trump.

this is straight out of the 2025 project playbook. the other thing i wanted to comment on quickly was a couple of colors or at least one mentioned trump has not been playing golf or anything. i just looked at an article from the independent saying he spent almost $10.7 million of taxpayer money funding his golfing hobby since he was inaugurated. he spent all four weekends on the green and has spent nine of his 30 days in office playing golf. that is all i have to say. host: on project 2025, did you catch the interview last week on this program with one of the original directors of project 2025 who came on to talk about the presidential transition and what has happened and his thoughts on how much of what has happened in the past month was laid out in project 2025? did you watch that interview? caller: yes, i did. i saw him when he was first on way back when, i believe it was

the first time he was on i saw it, and i was horrified by it then. i just believe this is all part of a plan. i do not believe for a minute trump did not know anything about it. this is just part of the plan to get his people in and everybody else out. host: this is max in virginia, democrat, good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. with all this chaos in d.c., i think there are two fundamental questions that need to be addressed. the first is, should the government be more efficient? as someone who spent time in government and many more years in the private sector, there are many things the government does that are unwieldy but there is a good reason because we are dealing with taxpayer dollars. the way it is being done arbitrarily throwing people out of work, even in the regular

private sector, not the tech sector, these things have never historically happened. you do it in a way that dignify's the work that people have done. you are going to make the government more efficient, why not benchmark against other countries that are efficient that are at the height of the industries for government? the second thing is the government is a corporation. think about it this way pick corporations can fire a bunch of workers, the top ceo can make all the money, and the corporation can go bankrupt. do we want the united states to go bankrupt? what would be the alternative if that were to happen? host: that was max. this is teresa in the wolverine state. good morning, you are next. caller: good morning, john. why does trump not focus on what he promised? he keeps blowing money.

what about the gulf of mexico? come on, it is my money. my taxpayers'money. nascar, golf, he wants a new airplane? host: as a republican, did you vote for him in 2024? caller: oh, i am a democrat. i must have called on the wrong line. host: do me a favor, calling on the lines that best fit you. this is vince in houston, independent, good morning. caller: i want to make some offers a -- observations about people calling in. i try to stay open-minded about this. we are all yelling and screaming about elon musk. i agree with some of it, i do not agree with some of it about him being an outsider. i don't know many big companies in houston that when they do an audit they hire outside people. they do not hire people from within their company. number two, i think the media, not y'all, and i listen to

everybody, is still trying to put fear in people's minds. i saw a clip, and i wish y'all would show it, and maybe a lot of viewers have not seen it, i saw two clips of bill clinton who i voted for an obama make speeches to the american people about how they have got to trim government and account for every penny being spent. the difference is, they never did it. so, i do not understand why everybody is full about that. one more thing about the media. i watched rachel maddow talking about how trump only supports rich people. and she made a comment that she wished she was rich. everybody, i want y'all to know, she took a $1 million cut on her salary this year. she now makes $20 million a year on msnbc.

we talk about the educational system. where did she go to school? because where i am from, if you make $20 million a year, you are pretty darn rich. thank you. host: that is vince in texas. this is knish in south carolina, democrat, good morning. caller: i'm calling because i am appalled and amazed at some of the things these people are saying. we have got to educate our kids, take care of our children. but but they make it be partisan. children are not pawns. our elders are not pawns. what we need to do is what god

told us to do, take care of our young, take care of our old, and take care of our society because jesus said render unto caesar those things which are his, which means taxes. as people who are limited in income pay their taxes on a percentage basis, then people who are blessed by god should pay more. host: minnesota, this is carol, republican, good morning. caller: good morning. i am just curious. since elon musk is going for all the people working for the federal government, why does he not go after all of these people

sitting home collecting welfare checks doing absolutely nothing? i can see they have to clear out a few government people but this country is going down for all of the welfare they are paying out. i moved to an apartment after i sold my house. i am in a 55 and older building pit i have been retired for six years. across from me is the younger people. i just counted 23 cars in the parking lot that stay there all day long. i would like to know what they are doing. host: you may be interested and probably will be interested, in less than 10 minutes, we are going to talk with two members of the united council on welfare fraud, a group that recently testified before congress about welfare fraud and their efforts over the years. stick around for that conversation speaking directly

to your called. this is edward in new jersey, independent, good morning. edward, are you with us? we go to kate in michigan, democrat, good morning. caller: good morning, john. my lived experience as a social work in my community with head start for years, people no longer get cash money. that stock a long time ago. bill clinton put a stop to that. the point i want to make today is i am one of those people that watches c-span all the time. i watch the house come in and they immediately walk out with gigantic posters. i want to know what the poster budget is. does anyone know the answer to that? host: i would imagine it comes out of each office's allowance they get each year. certainly something we can ask to one of these congressional

budget officers next time they are in. this is nita, republican, ohio, good morning. caller: i just ask that everybody give donald trump a chance. he is doing the best he can. we voted for him on what he run for, give the manage chance. we are better off today than we was before. host: rachel in delaware, the first state, independent line, good morning. caller: good morning, how are you today? host: doing well, thank you. caller: i called and about my concerns about elon musk and his ability to gain access to valuable information. i do not know if you have seen the show, "zero day," that came out recently. i am like, i am watching it in real life. that is kind of scary.

also, i believe in the freedom of religion, but i do not think it should be shoved down our neck. you know? i also am very concerned about the project 25 issue. that is what is happening. we gave them four years to claim it. host: that is rachel in delaware. this is full it should, tennessee coming -- felicia, tennessee, democrat. caller: there was a gentleman earlier who said he watched obama and clinton say they would take care of getting waste out of the government and did not do anything about it. bill clinton left us with the first budget balanced in i forget how many years. and then, we got $250 checks from republicans when we had a balanced budget. if we do not put civics back in our schools so people can

understand what the government expects from them and they should expect from the government in this constitution, if we still have one, that is one of the things where we have gone wrong. last, those who do not want systematic destruction, there should be a cash register on the desk in washington because president trump and his crew, there is not going to be anything that is done where he is not going to collect a fee or some money. for them to tell a destroyed nation that looks like a wasteland we will help you if you give us 50% of whatever you have left for us to take, if some mafioso, it hurts my heart to see my nation, america, built on the principles of being the best and the better, we use to

walk softly and carry a big stick. now, we just have a big stick beating people over the head. people, wake up and understand, this is a moneymaking scheme. one man wants absolute power, elon, and donald trump wants absolute money. every institute we have is about to be turned into privatized just like he is doing the postal service or attempting to do. everything is closing because trump wants everything to become a privatized situation where him and his cronies can make money off everything. host: are last caller -- our l ast caller in this open forum. we want to take you to 1600 pennsylvania avenue at the white house, the washington post white house reporter joining us this morning. it is already a busy day at the white house. french president emmanuel macron arriving earlier today. what is on the agenda for the

french president and president trump? >> we are expecting ukraine will be a heavy focus of these meetings between the french president and president trump. certainly, the discussion about how president trump may negotiate an end to the war in ukraine has dominated the political conversation at the white house in recent weeks. we have seen in just the first month of his second term trump really remake the global order and how the united states acts in the world. it has created a lot of fear and anxiety among european leaders. we expect that will be a top topic of discussion between trump and the french president today. host: are we going to get one of those bilateral press conferences? if so, what are you expecting with the dynamic? >> it will be fascinating to watch. i recently traveled in december two macron and trump's first postelection meeting where they

showed a friendly display but also president zelenskyy from ukraine was there and there was a sense that macron was acting as a unifying force between the united states and ukraine. since then, we have seen president trump falsely accuse ukraine of starting the war with russia. we have seen him call president zelenskyy a dictator. certainly, that will have an impact on his relationship with macron and how the two may interact today. there is often talk of this almost romance between macron and trump given trump's recent statements and posture towards ukraine, i think we are all watching to see whether that has devolved today. host: that press conference expected early afternoon. it is a busy day on c-span networks. the house in at noon, the senate at 3:00. we are expecting that press conference around 2:00.

not the only european visitor to the white house this week. keir starmer also expected to be at the white house. when, and what is the topic of conversation when he joins? >> i think the relationship with keir starmer is fascinating at this moment. the united kingdom post-brexit has a different relationship with the rest of the european union. keir starmer have been able to position himself as someone trump views as a friend and ally. he told reporters on air force one during his first trip as president he had talked to him and despite the fact they had different political views that he saw him as an ally. during the munich security conference, we heard the u.k. talk to jd vance, the foreign secretary talk about the need for the country to spend more on defense. certainly, that is what trump wants to hear from these european leaders at this time

that he is talking about pulling out of ukraine. certainly, we are watching for how that relationship evolves and how the united kingdom could play a role in paying more for defense at this time where trump seems very interested in decreasing the amount of american support there. host: emmanuel macron today, keir starmer later this week. had there been any response from the white house about the results of the election in germany and what that relationship is expected to be like going forward? >> saw president trump strike a conciliatory tone in his comments congratulating germany on the results of the election. we had seen in recent weeks elon musk endorsing the afid right

wing party in germany. we saw when vice president vance visited germany a couple weeks ago that he visited with all of the german leaders. but now that we saw the more centrist german party prevail, you see trump talking about a to work with them. -- oh wait forward to work with them. during the munich security conference, he also talked about germany playing a bigger role and spending on defense. jd vance said that was a positive development. we heard national security advisors talk about how the mood had shifted in europe. i think you do see even at this time when trump is being so critical, so negative about the transatlantic relationship, these european leaders scrambling to figure out, ok, we cannot count on the united states, how do we fill that void

in terms of defense spending and protecting ukraine? host: germany's far-right surges but stopped short. conservative christians claim victory and now must build a coalition. this week at the white house, we are expecting the first cabinet meeting. what are you looking for when president trump gathers his top cabinet officials for the first time? >> one of the things we are all watching as the cabinet gathers is president trump and elon musk through doge have been involved in a remaking of the executive branch. we have seen countless changes to some of these agencies. the email that went out to federal workers this week about justifying what they are working on. we have seen some top officials in the administration telling employees not to respond to that email. one of the questions moving forward when we watch the cabinet and how they interact with the president is, how are

the leaders of the individual agencies responding to the changes doge is making? and is there any tension over the plans to shrink the size of the federal government among the top leaders within it? host: what is next for the pentagon in the wake of president trump dismissing the joint chiefs chair and changes in top leadership there? guest: i think -- >> i think that move has set off a lot of alarms about president trump violating long-standing norms and putting loyalists in these positions. it is just a question moving forward of how president trump is expanding his power over every facet of the government. the military is a huge part of that obviously at this critical time amid the ongoing negotiations related to ukraine and gaza. host: no lack of news for a white house reporter these days. cat is a white house reporter for the washington post.

appreciate the time this morning. >> thank you for having me. host: about 40 minutes left this morning in "washington journal." in that time, we will be joined by dawn royal and andrew mcclenahan of the united council on welfare fraud to discuss the efforts of their group to track fraud and abuse in public assistance programs. stick around for that conversation. we will be right back. ♪ >> c-spanshop.org is c-span's online store. browse our latest collection of c-span products, apparel, books, home decor, and accessories. there is something for every c-span fan. every purchase helps support our nonprofit operations. shop now or anytime at c-spanshop.org.

>> 100 years ago this past august was the beginning of what has often been called the great war. world war i had military casualties of over 9 million and millions more civilians. the professor of bard college has written nine books since 2003 on subjects that include german history, russian history, the ottoman empire, communism, world war ii, and one titled "july 1914." his last book will be the focus of our conversation. row war one was triggered in late june in 1914 by the assassination of archduke ferdinand and his wife in bosnia. they were gunned down by a serbian 19-year-old. >> the author talks about his book, countdown to war on this

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>> "washington journal" continues. host: a focus now on fraud and abuse in public assistance programs. to do that, we are joined by two guests from the united council on welfare fraud. andrew mcclenahan works on the intergovernmental committee and dawn royal serves as director. who makes up the council? what is your mission? >> we are group of investigators from across the country. i am a director. we have a board of directors, regional directors. i sit in that capacity as a former past president. we have investigators, people who collect claims that have been established, administrators, from across the country. host: to do what? >> we are the only national organization focused on the prevention, detection, and prosecution of welfare fraud. we provide a forum and a place

for our members to gather to develop their skills. we offer training for our members. we also advocate for things that are going to help with the detention, prosecution of fraud. host: how much do we spend on welfare in this country each year? what percentage have you found goes to fraud, waste, or abuse? >> it is shocking. when i first heard the number, i was stunned. in the supplemental nutrition assistance program, snap, the predecessor of which was food stamps, 1/20 of 1% of the budget is spent on the detection and prosecution of fraud. host: andrew mcclenahan, what does the intergovernmental committee do at the council? what did you do before you joined them? >> the council has investigators

around the country. these are employees of the state agencies that are administering these programs. it is not an independent organization that does this sort of like a doge or something. the investigators we provide training for our primarily defective -- detecting fraud at the beginning on eligibility fraud, trafficking benefits, and trying to recover the money back. the problem is, how much money is being lost to fraud? that number is not known. we have two different issues. we have a snap fraud issue and an error rate issue. they are not the same. prior to my current position in the private sector, i was the director of the office of integrity in the state of floridathough sort of programs.

host: what are the most common types of fraud, explain what you mean when you talk about that. >> you have eligibility fraud which is usually first person, somebody hiding members of their household or receiving income or adding members to their household fit do not truly belong within the household there. that is the type of fraud that we most commonly see. we also have trafficking in benefits. when someone will sell the benefits that place within snap and the going rate $.50 on the dollar exchanging money for the ebt benefits that were meant to go through to cash, guns, human trafficking, things that are non-food approved. finally you have eligibility fraud which is the hot topic right now with the ebt skimming

in the account takeover issues affecting citizens. that's premier league on through skimming devices and the lack of identity verification tools that have provided a vulnerability the transnational fraudsters are exploiting. host: you recently testified before congress, what did you tell members of congress? >> i testified in front of thedoge committee and told them about our antiquated processes. fraud investigators often get hamstrung because of old rules, conflicting rules, we are challenged with different administrations and their interpretation. there is the old saying if you will that integrity to never interfere with access meaning whether somebody is actually eligible for the benefits should never interfere with their ability to give the benefits.

so if somebody makes a false statement on an application, the administration wants to get the benefits out the door as quick as they can then they throw it back, of the pay and chase model. so we bring that to the attention of the committee that that's a very frustrating. there's a lot of technology that's available it's used in the private sector and the different states and counties that administer the benefits just don't have access to that type of technology. so it is costing the taxpayers millions of dollars. we wanted to bring it to the committee's attention that the taxpayers have a stake in this and it is time somebody started to look after the taxpayers. host: the investigators who are looking into this part of the council when they find the fraud and the waste and abuse, what is the penalty? is it just that somebody loses their benefits or can people be prosecuted or put in prison if

the fraud is extensive enough? >> it varies by program. specifically with snap there are sanctions that are available a disqualification sanction that is available. so the investigator would need to prove somebody intentionally made a false statement in their application. the first offense would be a 12 month disqualification. they're seconded to any four-month disqualification and third would be permanent. that is generally speaking grade there are specific conditions that carry specific penalties paid there are statutes both state and federal that allows somebody to be criminally prosecuted. so depending on the severity of the misstatement, the amount of money that was paid either to or on behalf of the individual, than the states have a criteria that they use to determine whether they would refer that for criminal prosecution. in medicaid it's a little bit different. there aren't penalties other than criminal prosecution.

somebody can be disqualified for future use of medicaid. so again if you have an infraction if you will an intentional program violation that it doesn't necessarily warrant criminal prosecution. then we can clawback and recover some of the money that would essentially there are no repercussions in medicaid. host: talking about fraud and abuse in public assistance programs, our guests are dawn royal, with the council on welfare fraud, and your mclanahan a co-chair of one of the committees there taking your phone calls on phone lines. as usual it is republicans, 202-748-8001. democrats 202-748-8000. independents 202-748-8002. and then a special line for this segment if you receive federal government assistance. if you have questions on the topic, 202-748-8003.

andrew mclanahan, as folks are calling in what is a fraud investigation that sticks out in your mind in terms of how egregious it was. >> i think that is an easy one for me to answer. back in around 2010, the state of florida welfare fraud investigators with the florida bargain of children and families identified trafficking with retailers that were inside a fleamarket. originally was approved as five to eight retailers, the usda office of inspector general is responsible for the authorization and the administration and the monitoring of the retailers. however, in a trafficking case you have both a willing recipient and retailer that's involved in the hand-to-hand sort of transaction a similar transaction that you have.

and we were finding millions of dollars coming out of the fleamarket. we went down there and there was no food, food from a nearby produce distribution center. it would be on grandmothers thanksgiving table. we were looking at $3.6 million a month coming up. after we stopped at the first time, the fraud stopped for about three days and picked right back up and they kept approving these dishonest retailers. it was an issue they had of not being able to prevent retailers that are committing crimes. when it was all said and done back in 2017 and we finally went down and rated the fleamarket there were 18 retailers that were charged. it was over 100,000 households within the state of florida

looking it over $100 million in fraud. for cash, guns, drugs. one retailer had a human trafficking room to exchange sex for ebt. that i think was the ugliest side of the fraud and waste that we see occurring within any of our safety net programs. and it should not be the face of snap for sure. host: what's an investigation that stands out in your mind? >> we recently prosecuted a case i would say in our most common recipient fraud is when a member of the household fails to disclose the noncustodial parent. last year we prosecuted a case where the father of the children actually lived in the home and the applicant failed to list him, his employment and income. he was making a six-figure

income providing an enviable lifestyle for his family, they took vacations, they had snowmobiles, four wheelers, mobile homes. their house was paid for. the wife even was very generous and gifted a $1200 bottle of bourbon and they were all very in a very small community braggadocio is if you will on social media. so here you have their children walking through the lunch line not paying for their school lunches because they receive snap benefits and the monday morning after they just posted pictures about their great trips. so it was offensive to the community, it was offensive to the struggling families who aren't eligible for assistance. and it was a good case to prosecute again showing the

egregious mess and the ease at which the programs are exploited. host: how did you get into this line of work, why do you want to be welfare fraud investigator? >>, paralegal with my background in training. i was working for the u.s. attorney's office moving to different part of the state and just stumbled into welfare fraud investigation. it was a job i felt i was qualified for. and it turns out to be my niche. it is something i'm very passionate about. i am very fortunate that when i was growing up i was aware of the welfare programs but i came from a very solid stable home and never had any first-hand knowledge of the programs. it wasn't until i became an investigator that i learned how important they are. we don't think the united states can call itself the most powerful country or nation if their citizens are hungry and don't have access to medical

care because of the inability to pay. so i see my role and the role of my colleagues across the nation to make sure that these programs stay strong. so when somebody needs assistance they are ready and able to help. host: why do you do this work? >> i'm retired law enforcement also spent a decade in the inspector general community and dedicate my entire life to both public service and to protecting the safety net programs. i believe they are important and help but i don't believe that we should have fraudsters both domestic and foreign that are taking up the same queue lines that our citizens are in seeking assistance. or that they should be taking money from our taxpayer resources. just the amount of fraud waste and abuse that is occurring within all of our safety net

programs. we could end homelessness overnight if we were focused on preventing fraud as dawn said where it just doesn't work pretty needs to be of the front end. >> you mention the inspectors general, what is their role. should they be the ones overseeing these investigations into fraud waste and abuse and what was your opinion of donald trump in one of his first moves are moving most of the inspector general's at government agencies. >> i have no opinion on politics, we are politically agnostic. that works with both sides of the house and senate. as well as the executive agencies. so i don't really have an opinion on it. the inspector general's at the federal level are primarily responsible for overseeing retailers if it's a medicaid

organizations and licensed physicians and those sort of things, of the providers up about health care benefits. the states and counties in the territories are responsible for the recipients. and the -- that is done at the state level or the county level in some organizations and state inspector general's also are involved in this. looking at the recipients. host: the united council on welfare fraud if you want to check out the group that don royle and andrew represent. we're here to take your phone calls we have about 20 minute left to do that. this is kathleen mississippi up first on that line for those who receive federal government assistance. good morning. what's your question or comment. caller: the problem is if you don't report to the medicaid

office, you can get cut off. the other part is you can make one dollar over and you can get cut off. the other problem is you have to go through extreme things just to get to tell the people what happened. i've -- they brought me down from 343 month. i had to go back and pay $10 a month for years. just to get me down to 107 because of thinking i was getting what -- $811. so i've worked my whole life. we don't have pensions, and states where they -- where the

house got one tax cut and the senate got another tax cut for trump. host: to her statement that it is hard to get on these programs and easy to get cut off of these programs. >> we recognize that there is a benefit cliff meaning that when somebody reaches the maximum amount that they could lose their benefits and then of course the family could be less better off if you will, struggling harder without those benefits. but we need to keep in mind that these are safety net programs. they were devised to prevent involuntary hunger or to help somebody in a crisis situation rage that gap until they're able to help themselves. so while the callers scenario sounded very difficult and i do have compassion for that, broadly speaking we want to make sure that people again that are using the program are eligible for the program.

and families should feel great at that point when they are no longer receiving that benefits. again i understand that it is hard, but you don't need to rely on these social welfare programs should be a source of pride. host: robert in indiana, independent good morning for you are next. caller: thanks for taking my call and thank you folks for doing what you do to try to protect these programs from fraud. my question is how do we stop lawyers from helping people who aren't eligible and shouldn't be getting it from spending years beating down the people who authorize it until they finally find a way to get people something they don't deserve and on top of that to get back pay for all the years that they were trying to get it. i have specific examples i know personally of people who have done that. host: andrew we will let you

start on this one. >> it's a great question. of course due process is important whether it's on the eligibility determination or some of these benefits are being reduced or even cut off. all recipients have an opportunity for what's called a fair hearing to determine if those benefits were issued correctly. nationally we are just at about 112% for states correctly ministering the programs for underpayments. but the due process is important to have there. the issue to the callers point here is we have got because these are entitlement programs, primarily you are looking at a clear and convincing burden of proof to remove somebody off the program. it is kind of a nebulous description and it is somewhat more difficult to get to that other than a preponderance of the evidence which is the

typical standard to remove somebody from the program. so i'm glad people seek legal representation if they have been incorrectly served or administered these programs, the prior caller having to repay something for three years. that should be avoided. all of these things can be prevented if we shift to that sort of front end eligibility verification, verifying somebody's eligibility, verifying their identity to prevent those that occur as well as tying up the legal process in the ministry of in criminal courts. host: a question from sheila on x saying is it's still true that when people who needed these services at some point in their lives die any money or property they have left is then reclaimed by the federal government? >> it depends on the program. that would be a specific medicaid type of medicaid.

and that is the only program that i am aware of where that type of recovery is done. and again that is something that's done at the eligibility level. the applicant would be made aware of it in that time. host: why that process question mark explain the reasoning? >> that generally, and again i'm speaking in a broad term here, you see that with people -- elderly people going to nursing homes. so that medicare and medicaid overlap benefit to their property. if you have a surviving spouse they continue to live into the home until the survivor passes away and that lien for the care in the nursing home then is

definitely exercised. and again we are talking about a very specific type of one program so we are not talking about snap, not talking about a lot of the other welfare programs. so i would not want that type of almost your conine type of collection to be the thought for all of the programs. it's just not how those overpayment type claims or commit -- collected. host: earl is next in alexandria, virginia. good morning sir. >> good morning. for me i wanted to make a comment. i think it is helpful for me to get actual numbers for example. get a sense of what's the total number of state net benefits that are given out. what percentage of that do you think is fraudulent?

and what percentage, you mentioned this couple, one father making $100,000. that seems more like the exception than the rule. so i think what you are all doing is great work and so i don't want you to mistake what i'm saying but it seems like there seems to be a lot of righteous type of outrage for some of these small areas as opposed we have a lot of tax fraud going on and other types of fraud that people don't seem to be outraged about. so again, help me in saying you're dealing with $2 billion in safety net. this percentage is being abused or fraudulent because it doesn't tell me put percentage on it. we know any program there's going to be an acceptable level of fraud whether you're dealing with military spending, social security, so that is more

helpful to the average citizen every day. host: mr. mcclanahan, let you jump in. >> the numbers chain and depend per state on the numbers receiving. the usda food and nutrition services has a dashboard they provide with the amount of benefits that are issued, the average amount is per person. now they have a state activity report that shows everything from the amount benefits issued to how much it costs to administer the program all the way till much fraud the number of people removed by the programs and the different methods of recovery. so that sort of changes now. those reports are not published online and when they are they are sort of co-mingled together in the state activity reports i believe the last on the posted was the fiscal year 2021 for the

federal fiscal year. and if you are looking at around 120 billion dollars being pushed out every single year and even if it is only 10% of that is fraud, we know at least 11.6% of that is improperly issued. from the program. if you are looking at fraud rates, are members of experienced everything from a percent to 40% in fraud. the cost of fraud as the cost of doing business is not acceptable. last year there was a true cost of fraud report that showed every dollar cost four dollars and four cents. if you take that benefits out of that amount you're still looking at a dollar 52 being the cost borne by the states and another in that being born by the

federal government. fraud is extensive. the other point i would like to make is it's not just siloed in one program. and for the disability, it's a two-year certification. and you can to be in a two-year certification for snap and so you really rely on the social security administration properly and ministering those programs. because the impact is across programs. so the fraud rate is compounded text departure phone on gush put your thumb on bread -- put your thumb on. host: upwards of 40%, when and where was that program that had 40% fraud rate?

>> that was directly from the state of pennsylvania's inspector general which was testifying in front state legislature. there was the -- back in 2010 the state of florida issued a directive for agencies to come together, they did a study just on snap eligibility, not on the trafficking or identity fraud and found 7.5% dedicated just solely to fraud. if you look at the state-by-state level, i don't want to shame or call the state of alaska but i believe they were at a 60% overpayment rate for issuing benefits in 2023. that is an unacceptable number. i think they are aware of that

too. so we are talking about real money here. host: what states are the best at limiting fraud? >> well i think it is sort of who does it the least worst is probably the better example here. i think the state of florida, mississippi some of the sub -- other states of done a good job being involved in the original national accuracies to eliminate duplicate participation across states. last $1.7 billion for checking verifications to make sure in another state. identity verifications at the front end since 2013. saving around $250 million per year. the problem is the directives

and regulations are currently exist have just been added on, you have millions of regulations in the single programs. those dollar values add up. it is a problem. host: don royle you have rachel here in washington dc line for republicans paid good morning. caller: part of the money you guys are speaking about his federal money given to the state implement programs and part is state money. can you speak about how that is unwound and who is responsible for ensuring the benefit gets to the appropriate person? also i assume it adds up to more than one dollar in terms of time and labor and other costs considered. >> it depends on the program. snap is 100% federally funded.

and then there is a 50% cost share with the administration. we determined benefits and been inched -- issued incorrectly the states establish the payment claim and are required to recover that. they used on how that money -- how the claim was established, so if it was an inaccurate household error than the recovery amount or the amount the states would retain would be less then if you're able to prove it was less as a result of fraud error. so states retain a portion of that money. the problem is with that state retention is that it's not always used for the detention, prevention and prosecution of fraud. often it is rolled into a general fund. there isn't a lot of incentive for states to spend state money to protect federal money and that's one of the problems we run into. it's one of the things we advocate for. is that struggle to even prevent fraud because states are

hesitant to spend their own money to do it. so again, we advocate a lot for increasing that retention amount and then mandating it be used for the detention and prosecution of fraud. when you keep in mind the usda spending less than one 20th 1% of the budget, we think there at a place for direct funding to make sure states have some sort of incentive to prevent fraud. because again right now very few do. host: a follow-up question on x wanting to know who funds the council, who funds your group? >> we are a nonprofit. our primary source is our annual trading conference, but we are again a nonprofit and we are self-funded. host: how money people make up the group? >> we have just under 1000

members nationwide. host: dave is next with a couple of minutes left in our program. independent. good morning. caller: good morning john. my neighbors and i've had conversations about what we see with this welfare stuff. what they do is they -- when they first get on and apply for this aid, maybe the mother is taking care or the mother should have some money because they are taken care of. pretty soon next thing you know you have three or four or five of them but keep going from house to house but moving from other houses. i am retired. these guys are living like crazy.

they are driving all over the place, pouring all this gas, exchanging cars. just like some people would mention to you how do you keep track of where everybody is and what is legitimate? host: just about a minute left. >> it's a great question. i think some of that is part of the issue and it's why we advocate for moving to a trust but verify instead of the honor system. the safety net programs were meant to be primarily means tested programs so that income and assets are something that are verified. household composition is something in residency whether someone is incarcerated or deceased. basic eligibility that's done. in florida i saw that myself firsthand, the use the broad-based categorical eligibility for recipients so we don't to asset testing. so you can have millionaires

receiving food stamps. saw it firsthand when we looked at the luxury vehicles and how many people were driving brand-new teslas or mercedes, luxury vehicles that receipt -- were receiving benefits. there's a little bit of low hanging fruit to get those people in those gross issues people making over $100,000 a year. those people need to be removed from the program so benefits that taxpayers fund these programs are going to people who truly need it. host: we will have to ended there. andrew mcclanahan and don royle, appreciate your time on the washington journal. >> thank you. host: that will do it for us this morning. we will be back here tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. eastern, we will take you now live over to the brookings institution in conversation there netting underway, a look at president trump's influence on the