>> cenk: i polled the panel. by a vote of 3-1 caitlin don't take the plea deal. fight them in court. "viewpoint" is next. >> john: ed is running for senate against mitch mcconnell in kentucky and there's two things about this guy i already like. one, he did not see divine secrets of the ya ya sisterhood. also we'll look at the issues of atheism. i know, thank god. there are rumors barack obama wants to go the full -- does he have the guts to do it, america or will he embrace another '90s film that most people have never seen. today is the birthday of collins

and scrutters who became a victim of writer's block in the shining. 12 years ago today indiana jones and the temple of doom was released and started the pg-13 rating. rip some guy's heart out of hit chest and don't think too much about the stereotypes. this is "viewpoint." >> john: good evening i'm john fuglesang. this is "viewpoint." thank you so much for joining us tonight. as the fate of the defense of marriage act hangs in the balance awaiting a decision from the u.s. supreme court those directly impacted by this discriminatory law continues to feel the repercussions including the spouses of military veterans in same-sex marriages. that is the case for karen morgan who is featured here in a video for the organization

freedom to marry and whose wife and coparent, charlie morgan, passed away from breast cancer after returning from a tour of duty in iraq. because of doma, ms. morgan has been unable to receive any benefits from the military on behalf of her spouse to help care for their 5-year-old daughter an injustice she has vowed to fight as long as it takes. >> my name is karen morgan and my wife was cw2 charlie morgan of the new hampshire national guard. doma basically has created a culture of two separate types of family within the military now. these soldiers put in equal time equal effort and their families are not recognized. and i promised her that i would be on the courthouse steps when doma was repealed and that i would have a picture of her in my arms there. that i will see this fight against doma through to the end.

and that was my promise to her. >> john: we're very pleased to be joined via skype by karen morgan widow of chief warrant officer charlie morgan of the new hampshire national guard who is being denied federal benefits because of the defense of marriage act. ms. morgan, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thank you john. >> john: what a pleasure. can you just tell us a little bit about yours and charlie's story and how you wound up in this fight against doma? >> yes charlie and i have been together for 16 years. we had a civil union for ten years and after the repeal of don't ask, don't tell, we got married because it was safe to do so. she could no longer lose her job because of being gay in the military. and our family depended on her income for our livelihood. we've always been strong fighters for what we felt was right. and we just felt like this was

an inequity that needed to be addressed. a lot of people didn't know the stories of gay families in the military. they didn't even realize that they were there. >> john: how long was she in iraq? >> she was in kuwait and she was there for a year. she was deployed to kuwait and she did go to iraq but her main base was there. >> john: okay. so karen, what benefits would you be entitled to today had you been in a heterosexual marriage? >> i would be entitled to any survivorship benefits which would be v.a., social security, certain percentage of charlie's base pay those types of things. i would also be entitled for tricare health insurance and dental. i would be responsible for paying for those but i would at least have access to them for the rest of my life. right now, i can't have access

to any of those things. also, i can't get an i.d. card to visit base or take care of family business on base. >> john: i heard a moving story about you bringing your daughter to visit your partner and you not being allowed to go into the base. can you tell us why that was? >> yeah, that happened because i didn't have an i.d. card. we attempted to get an i.d. card about a year ago a little over a year ago and were rejected for that because of having to be an opposite sex of the sponsor. i couldn't get the i.d. card. when we went to that particular commissary they refused to let me in so my spouse and child had to go in without me and i had to sit on the wall outside of the commissary and wait for them to come out and get me. >> john: in the video you said you plan to be on the steps of the supreme court with a picture of charlie when doma is repealed. how optimistic are you that

that's going to be sooner rather than later? >> i'm very optimistic that doma will be declared unconstitutional. i think that the public has made a decision on that. so i do think it is going to happen. i don't know how quickly it will happen. a lot of the other policies have changed, have done so without very fast action or impact on the families of the soldiers. so it could be months before we see results from it. but i do believe it is going to happen. i know charlie believes it was going to happen. she was very optimistic just before she passed away. >> john: it is very important to keep on reminding our viewers that this injustice is not because of anything the military has done. it is because of the defense of marriage act from back in the '90s. how much support from heterosexual families have you received in your fight? >> we've had a lot of support.

we've had pretty overwhelming support from other military families as well as charlie's superiors in the military. they've all expressed the wish to help us -- their hands are tied. they can't do anything about it because of this federal law. that is standing in the way. they feel like it is the right thing to do to reach out to us but they're just -- there isn't a lot they can do. >> john: does this support from other military families cross ideological lines both progressive and conservative folks who have your back? >> i have seen that, yes absolutely. we've had support from both sides. they feel like it is just the right thing to do. and it really is an issue that goes back to freedom and personal rights and that's an issue that transcends political value. >> john: karen, what would you say to anyone watching who believes that you're not

entitled to the benefits that charlie earned with her military service? >> i would say that just search your heart. those soldiers that put their lives on the line every day to defend our freedoms, they deserve the respect and recognition regardless of who they are. they're there to help our country and they should have that respect. >> john: karen morgan, thank you so much for sharing your time and story with us tonight. we wish the best to you and of course, to your daughter as well. >> thank you so much. >> john: what a pleasure. now, for more on the real world implications of the defense of marriage act we're very pleased to be joined once again by richard socarides former adviser to president clinton who is a contributor to new yorker.com. it is great to see you as always. you just heard karen's story how common are tales of injustice like this throughout the country? >> it is an amazing story. first of all, i would say ms. morgan is showing enormous

bravery and courage in being willing to share this really tragic story with us. and it's her logicalness and the willingness of others like her to talk about this candidly which gives face to this discrimination. i think it is actually more common than we think. and i think that, you know, we see it very vividly in this context where just because the people involved are gay or lesbian, lesbian in this case, they're not entitled to benefits that other people, were they heterosexual and legally married as the morgans were, would be easily entitled to. there would be no question. you wouldn't have to qualify. it is just the single fact that an american is gay that they're not entitled to be treated equally in this very specific way. it is such a tragedy of this particular law. so, i mean it probably affects a lot of people in the military and in other context too we saw earlier this week, around the immigration bill, that there

was an effort to add an amendment to the immigration bill which would help the noncitizen partners of u.s. residents who are legally married in same-sex marriages but that could not get through republican opposition. >> john: i guess i was not surprised by that. i do want to ask you about that because it is a contentious part of the immigration bill. i do want to get back to doma. i was heartened to hear karen tell us about how heterosexual military families, conservative and liberal have supported her on this. the families of veterans are being discriminated against. does that bring into focus how bad of a law doma was? >> especially when we knew don't ask, don't tell was repealed, that the military gets behind its people. and whether you're straight or gay, the military has a tradition of supporting all of the military. and you know, i think it's very

indicative of the change more broadly. people see the injustice of this defense of marriage act and how it works in a very real way to create these injustices and it just doesn't make sense to average americans. you don't have to be a liberal. you don't have to be a gay activist. you don't even have to be a human rights activist. just ordinary citizens see the injustice of this. >> john: this is a story in karen's case that is under the radar. have you found other instances of under the radar stories where people are still hurting because of this federal law? >> there are many instances i applaud groups like freedom to marry and outserve who are part of the effort to get stories like karen's out. and that's why we're hearing about it. because there is a concerted effort to get the stories out in advance of the supreme court ruling and while the supreme court is considering it. >> john: which brings me to your former boss, mr. clinton. how do you think -- not to ask you to go into his head, how do you think he feels about doma, all of these years on?

>> it is a difficult question. i think he -- we know now and those of us who talked to him then that he was very reluctant signer to that law. it was you know, not his idea. the republicans pushed it through congress. there was very little congressional opposition to it. it was passed by veto proof margins in the congress. and i think he felt like he had to sign it for political reasons because it was, you know, the country was not with him. he was ahead of his time on the support for gay rights. in retrospect, he would like to have that back. he has recently, in his op-ed in "the washington post," said as much. >> john: i like a lot of the lgbt community realizes if he had done the right thing and tried to kill it we might have wound up with the far less friendly president dole. >> well, it is obviously very hard to look back. i think that you know, signing

it was a big mistake. i said so then. you know, i have said so again and again. i think he now says it is a big mistake and he's written about it. it is very unusual for a former president to say i made a mistake. and i think he would very much, you know if you could rewrite history, he would very much like that one back. >> john: doma is another sign, in spite of the progress, the lgbt community has made, we have so far to go. just this week in my neighborhood of greenwich village, a gay man was shot and killed. how what seems innocuous culturally can result in very real bigotry. can you expand on that a bit? >> well, i think first of all it was a horrible tragedy in again itch people. people don't expect anything like this to happen in green itch village. there is still a lot of violence

directed toward gays. people who say the fight is over and all of the rights have been won, that's nonsense. there are very real issues that we still face and including violence and hate crimes. you know, i think that when issues of gay rights are in the news and when progress seems to be made, it seems to sometimes bring out you know, the crazy people who are -- certainly mentally deranged. but they're trying to send a message to people -- the community more broadly about people in the gay community and people who support gay rights that this, you know, is not acceptable to them. they're trying to send a message and scare people off. luckily, i don't think people will be scared because we stand together. but these ideas come from somewhere. and i worry that, like, for instance, in the discussion of this immigration bill, today not today but earlier this week in congress, you know, when

people -- when our elected officials, when our leaders are suggesting that there can be two classes of americans that americans should not always be treated equally, i mean that sends a powerful message to the haters that, you know, that there are, in fact, two class of americans. >> john: it legitimizes it. does it disturb you that senator leahy is backing down from trying to get this provision in the immigration bill? is it a case of where because of the greater good, we want to get a bill passed. we're willing as democrats to throw the gays under the parade float. they'll forgive us and still be in our corner but i get the logic behind it but how frustrating is it? >> it is very troubling and it is very frustrating. and i think it's hard to know, you know, what the right decision was and i think, you know, as people like chuck schumer and senator leahy and others who were there said it was one of the most difficult and wrenching decisions of their political careers.

these are long political careers. but i don't think progressives, on the other hand, myself included want to stand in the way of immigration reform. it is so important that these millions of people who live in the shadows get some protection and this may be the first real opportunity to do something for them and for our country which needs to respect everybody. so it is very difficult to know. i don't think that, you know, i think the anger should be squarely directed at the republicans, marco rubio, john mccain others, who said that they would block this bill if, you know, if gays were included. that's where the anger ought to be directed. >> john: kind. nice to watch homophobic bigotry dying piece by piece in our lifetime, isn't it? >> it cannot come too fast. >> john: richard socarides former adviser to president clinton and contributor to the new yorker.com. thank you. if you think low approval rating

o would hurt them in a re-election? you haven't talked to mitch mcconnell. we'll talk to the man running against him coming up next. >> jack, how old are you? >> nine. >> this is what 27 tons of marijuana looks like. (vo) with award winning documentaries that take you inside the headlines, way inside. (vo) from the underworld, to the world of privilege. >> everyone in michael jackson's life was out to use him. (vo) no one brings you more documentaries that are real, gripping, current. they think this world isn't big enough for the both of them. but we assure you - it is. bites. little greatness.

you know who is coming on to me now? you know the kind of guys that do reverse mortgage commercials? those types are coming on to me all the time now. (vo) she gets the comedians laughing and the thinkers thinking. >>ok, so there's wiggle room in the ten commandments, that's

what you're saying. you would rather deal with ahmadinejad than me. >>absolutely. >> and so would mitt romney. (vo) she's joy behar. >>and the best part is that current will let me say anything. what the hell were they thinking? i think the number one thing that viewers like about the young turks is that we're honest. they can question whether i'm right, but i think that the audience gets that this guy, to the best of his ability, is trying to look out for us. >> john: it's not just you. a lot of people don't like senator mitch mcconnell. even in his home state. but he keeps winning re-election. in a is survey last month his approval rating in kentucky was an abysmal 36% yet he's already leading the likely democratic candidates. which brings me to ed marks bury the only democrat to declare his candidacy so far. the poll has him down by 11

points against mcconnell before the mcconnell money machine kicks in. against this, mr. marksberry brings a working class message which he outlines in a rock video. have a listen. ♪ congress gives tax breaks to send our jobs overseas ♪ ♪ what about us ♪ >> john: i think that's rock. i had a chance to talk with candidate and apparent music star ed marksberry about his upcoming contest with senator mcconnell. welcome to "viewpoint." >> thank you john and thank you for having me on. >> john: thank you so much for joining us. i have to begin by asking what is your plan to compete against mitch mcconnell's gigantic money machine? because i'm look at this guy and i think he doesn't even need to be liked with the kind of pockets he has. >> well, they say you can't buy

love but that might be true with him. but what we're going to do we're going to be a total contrast to what mcconnell is about. mcconnell is about how much money can you raise which means how corrupt can i be? we're going to take it to the people with a better way to communicate with the message and that's why we came out with the song because see people are so tired of the politics that goes on in washington. they're tired of career politicians. they just want somebody they can trust and they can get behind. and that's why we're taking our message to the people because i know what it's like to try to make ends meet like they do. and what we're trying to do is shed light on citizens unite and what is corrupting the politicians there in washington. and it is money. so i hope he raises more and more because it is going to highlight more what's wrong with mitch mcconnell and the republican leadership and for that, washington in general.

>> john: it is a powerful message, sir. the more conservatives learn about citizens united, the more they don't like it. how powerful is senator mcconnell in kentucky? >> well, there's two sides of the coin there. he's very powerful even with other state agencies here because the money that flows back in to kentucky. but there are several republicans that are very tired of this politics, even the tea party that he's trying to take over and have them -- they're sick of him, as well. but every you go, i hear people who say i'm going to vote for you because you're one of us. then when i hear my republican friends and i do have republican friends out there they're so tired of him, as well. mcconnell is so vulnerable that now is the time to strike. >> john: is that what made you decide to do this, sir? given his low popularity, is that vulnerability the reason

why you're entering this contentious race? >> that's part of it, i guess. but my -- the main reason i got in the race is because i've helped out so many races for the past 15 years and i've seen the democratic machine try to adapt the republican playbook. it was about inner circles, how much money could you raise. they forgot about the true grassroots that we are and the volunteers and the people that knock on the door and the chairs we need filled. no matter how much money the democratic money raises, if they don't re-energize the base, they can't beat the republicans. that's why i want to do this campaign differently. i want to give ownership back to the base, to the supporters, to the grassroots, to the volunteer, to the people throughout that are tired of the politics being played the way they are in washington. you watch the campaign. right now we have the highest favorability rating with only

24% of name recognition. i hasn't spent any money yet. but mcconnell like you said before, he's throwing millions here and there and setting up kinds of different offices it is what it's going to take for him to even be somewhat competitive in this race. because people are tired and now is the time for us to attack the republican leadership and what's wrong with the republican leadership right here in his own backyard in kentucky. so i invite everybody from across the nation, follow our campaign. join us. this is your campaign. it is not about ed marksberry. it is about us. so that's what we're trying to do here, to get the word out. it doesn't take $20 million. it's going to take some money but at the same time it's going to take somebody that people trust and they want to get behind. >> john: mr. marksberry with only a 36% approval rating, i agree with you senator mcconnell looks vulnerable. however, in light of what we saw with our friend, ashley judd recently, are you concerned

about him opening up a smear machine on you? you weren't depressed when you were in 6th grade were you? >> well, i like that ole throw me back in the briar patch. i might buy a scandal to get my name out there. we thought about putting a dirty laundry list for ed marksberry to help him out a little bit. that's what people want to see. they don't care what you did in the sixth grade or when you were a college person. they care about what you're doing now. where is your heart? where is your mind? what kind of leadership skills do you have? are you going to be corruptible? what are you going to do for them? they could care less about all the tit for tat that's been going on for mcconnell. they love to throw out that kind of a campaign. it is not about mudslinging. it is about somebody with the strength wisdom and courage to take on what's wrong in washington and to move the country forward. >> john: ed marksberry is the

democratic candidate from the great state of kentucky. best of luck on your race. best of luck and good evening. we conclude our week of wtf colorado with a look at how companies deal with drug tests in a state where marijuana is legal coming up next. globe. >>dc columnist and four time emmy winner bill press opens current's morning news block. >>we'll do our best to carry the flag from 6 to 9 every morning.

(vo) later tonight current tv is the place for compelling true stories. >> jack, how old are you? >> nine. >> this is what 27 tons of marijuana looks like. (vo) with award winning documentaries that take you inside the headlines, way

inside. (vo) from the underworld, to the world of privilege. >> everyone in michael jackson's life was out to use him. (vo) no one brings you more documentaries that are real, gripping, current. >> john: today on wtf colorado, we look at a paradox involving the state's legalization of cannabis that is so mind-blowing, if you try to comprehend it, you'll feel more stoned than as could carianne. medical, not to mention recreational marijuana is legal in colorado. however, employers in the state can fire workers who test positive for the drug, even if it was used off duty because the drug, which is really a plant is still barred by the federal government. i'm look at you chief obama.

could you have imagined this happening back when you were getting baked in college? the colorado case involves brandon coat, a 33-year-old telephone operator working for dish network who was paralyzed in a car crash as a teenager and has been a medical marijuana patient since 2009, who would argue would this guy. he was fired for failing a company drug test. he was never impaired on the job. he was the first to volunteer to get pizza on lunch breaks. his employer, the dish network hi, has not commented on the case but has issued a statement saying everyone be sure to watch it's harold and kumar marathon. wtf, colorado, as long as you're firing decent people for using a prescribed legal medication, let's hope this leads to a crackdown on the freaky diabetics who are always shooting up with insulin.

other night? is this personal or is it political? a lot of my work happens by doing the things that i am given to doing anyway. staying in tough with everything that is going on politically and putting my own nuance on it. not only does senator rubio just care about rich people but somehow he thinks raising the minimum wage is a bad idea for the middle class. but we do care about them, right? vo: the war room monday to thursday at 6 eastern hi, i'm terry and i have diabetic nerve pain. it's hard to describe, because you have a numbness, but yet you have the pain like thousands of needles sticking in your foot. it was progressively getting worse, and at that point i knew i had to do something. once i started taking the lyrica the pain started subsiding. [ male announcer ] it's known that diabetes damages nerves. lyrica is fda approved to treat diabetic nerve pain. lyrica is not for everyone. it may cause serious allergic reactions or suicidal thoughts or actions. tell your doctor right away if you have these, new or worsening depression, or unusual changes in mood or behavior. or swelling, trouble breathing rash, hives, blisters, changes in eyesight including blurry vision,

muscle pain with fever tired feeling, or skin sores from diabetes. common side effects are dizziness, sleepiness, weight gain and swelling of hands, legs and feet. don't drink alcohol while taking lyrica. don't drive or use machinery until you know how lyrica affects you. those who have had a drug or alcohol problem may be more likely to misuse lyrica. ask your doctor about lyrica today. it's specific treatment for diabetic nerve pain.

you know who is coming on to me now? you know the kind of guys that do reverse mortgage commercials? those types are coming on to me all the time (vo) she gets the comedians laughing and the thinkers thinking. >>ok, so there's wiggle room in the ten commandments, that's what you're saying. you would rather deal with ahmadinejad than me. >>absolutely. >> and so would mitt romney. (vo) she's joy behar. >>and the best part is that current will let me say anything. what the hell were they thinking?

>> john: georgia versus tennessee. oklahoma versus tennessee. no, we're not talking about college football rivalries. battles over water. all over the country the populations continue to expand. chair challenging a border with tennessee which dates back to the 1800s. the dispute over water from the colorado river has been heightened following a debate from american rivers. naming the colorado river america's most endangered waterway. a scary notion. not only for the 40 million people who rely upon it but for all of us that consume the 15 first of american drops irrigated by that one river, as well. i was recently able to talk about america's water crisis

with dr. peter glick. many thanks for your time this evening. >> happy to be here. >> john: thank you. let me start off with the scary question. how major of a water crisis are we facing now in the united states? >> i think we're facing an increasing water crisis. i think we're seeing competition for water resources in places we didn't used to see competition for water. i think we're seeing more and more contamination of our water resources. the reality is water in the united states is limited. and increasingly, we're seeing conflict. we're seeing tension, we're seeing disputes over who gets it, who uses it, what they do with it. i think we're in a situation where those conflicts are going to get worse not better. >> john: where geographically in our country are the dwindling water supplies being felt most acutely right now? >> traditionally, we've had worries about water resources in the western united states. the western united states being much drier much more arid than typically the eastern united

states. so california, the colorado river region, rocky mountain area, great plains, we've seen issues there for quite some time. but increasingly, i think we're seeing disputes over water in places where we thought were water rich. between georgia and tennessee or georgia, alabama and florida. and i even think in places like the great lakes which we think of as a region with enormous quantities of water will see tensions over water levels, over water quality over water use in the future as pop populations continue to grow. >> john: what are some other ways to guarantee that we might have the water resources to continue growing our country? >> part of the problem is there's simply not enough water in more of and more of our rivers to do as effectively as we're currently doing them. part of the answer is we have to use to learn the water we have

and far more effectively and efficiently than we're doing. we can satisfy our urban needs and city need the. we can satisfy our agricultural needs with less water if we're more efficient. part of the solution is don't look for more water. we've tapped out our water systems in many parts of the country. but let's figure out how to use it more effectively and more efficiently. >> john: how about the new report naming the colorado river as the most endangered water way in america. what does that mean exactly and how big of a concern is this? >> well, unfortunately we have problems with many different waterways in different ways in terms of allocation, in terms of overuse and contamination and quality. the colorado river is the biggest river in the southwestern united states. it is, in some ways, the only river for parts of the region. and it has long been overallocated and overused. it is not a very big river by many standards. we've given away more water in

the colorado than nature provides. it goes to the cities, agriculture, it goes to produce power. and the competition over that limited resource has grown for decades. and now shared among the seven states in the united states and mexico that have access to that river. >> john: many fear water will be the next oil. how concerned are you about privatization of our water supplies in the future? >> i do think one of the biggest challenges is managing the water. and do we manage it as a public resource? do we manage it as a private good? there is a lot of contention over that. in the united states, it has been a public good for a long time. we have excellent public agencies that manage our water resources but we have to get better at managing it and we have to realize that water is both a human right but it is also an economic good. we have to balance those challenges. the additional problem is that climate change is going to affect all of these issues. climate change is going to

affect how much water we get where we get it, the severity of extreme events, it is going to put more pressure on proper management of this limited resource. >> john: you answered my next question. let me finish out with what impact do our domestic water disputes have on the rest of the world? >> well, in the united states, we're actually a little more fortunate in that when we have disputes over water, we take it to court we negotiate we have conversations hopefully about those disputes. but there is a long history of violent conflict over water internationally going back 5,000 years. we fight over access to water. water is a target over wars that start for other reasons. we use water as a weapon. one of the things we do is maintain a history of conflicts over water going back for millennia. and it looks like conflicts over water are growing. as climate change affects water availability as populations grow, as the demand for water grows. water that crosses a border, a

state border, an international border, we're beginning to see more and more violence, injuries deaths, disputes over those shared water resources. we're not good at managing water now. if we don't get better, the risks of conflicts are going to grow. and challenges associated with conflicts are going to grow. >> john: i would like to think my shorter shower will have a positive impact. i hope it will. dr. gleick is the cofounder of the pacific institute in california. i'm terrified and inspired. thank you for your time and expertise this evening. >> thank you. >> john: john john lennon sang about it over 40 years ago. a world without religion. what would that mean? young turks is that we're honest. they know that i'm not bs'ing them with some hidden agenda, actually supporting one party or the other. when the democrats are wrong, they know

that i'm going to be the first one to call them out. they can question whether i'm right, but i think that the audience gets that this guy, to the best of his ability, is trying to look out for us.

(vo) later tonight current tv is the place for compelling true stories. >> jack, how old are you? >> nine. >> this is what 27 tons of marijuana looks like. (vo) with award winning documentaries that take you inside the headlines, way inside. (vo) from the underworld, to the world of privilege. >> everyone in michael jackson's life was out to use him. (vo) no one brings you more documentaries that are real, gripping, current. >> john: imagine there's no country, it isn't hard to do. nothing to kill for die for and no religion, too. imagine all of the people living life in peace. a world without religion seems like an impossible task.

even in a country founded on the principle of secular government, religious institutions still wield a great deal of power. see the recent battle over gay marriage something that actually has nothing to do with the religion it's founded on. whenever the idea of a world without religion is discussed as john lennon tried to in his song, a world without edge religion is a world without morality. this he may have a point but how true is it really? i had a chance to ask this question and many more to a.c. grayling author of the book, the god argument. >> thank you for having me. >> john: it is obvious from the title of your book, you're no huge fan of organized religion. how would you define the concept of humanism? >> humanism is an attitude rather than a teaching. it is not a set of doctrines or laws or principles. it is an invitation to think about what a well-lived life would be like and what good relationships with people would be like. it has it roots in very, very

deep classical antiquity socrates, they were all humanists with small age traditions. buddhism and people think they're religions actually they're philosophies. what they all ask of us to do is to think. think for us. how to build communities with one another. if you don't have religion, you don't have any kind of morality is so wrong. >> john: i'm sure mr. hitler, a very religious man would disagree with that. it is true, the notion that logic itself is inherently moral if you follow the right course of events. how do you define the difference between religion and faith? >> well, religion obviously is a human construction. it is an organized institutional expression of what people believe and how they get together to do it. and faith is an individual

commitment. the examples that are given to us in history like the example of thomas who you remember, would have been more blessed if he had believed without evidence is that having faith is, you know believing it even if you haven't got a reason to believe it. >> john: religion, of course, can do good. building communities. >> no way to measure how many rapes and murders weren't commit the because someone was afraid of hell. does religion do more harm than good? >> it sounds har tosh say so but i think yes if one looks across the landscape of history and looks at the conflicts, at the oppressions of individual lives, really, you look at the situations of gays and women in most societies that have been governed, it is very important to notice that some of the -- the good things, the charitable things done by religion were done by people who don't have religion. all of the systems of the world tend to share the same sorts of

rather good moral outlooks but as has been said, it really does take religion to make good people do bad things. >> john: george carlin said the only thing to come out of religion was the music. however, when you look on a congregational basis when people are together, yes we see these examples of armies committing savage atrocities in the name of a god who isn't taking sides in the wars we're creating in his name. on the personal level when you see people who have been able to use religion be it in personal recovery be it, being able to use faith for holocaust victims whose faith guided them through this. do you draw a distinction between those two? can it be said that religion can be ultimately very good for society on a personal level whereas in a group setting that's when we end to get into problems? >> i think the thing that helps individuals is a sense of being part of the community or having some kind of support network. there were plenty of people, for example, in the communist

movement who felt that they had a great cause and life was full of meaning because they wanted to create the revolution. it is more the psychological aspect of being part of a closeness and very bonded community. one reason why religion survives and continues to survive into our modern era is not only because, you know, small children are incull katheed with the -- unculcated with the beliefs of their parents they have the -- they ought to describe the things they do. having dinner with their friends as spiritual exercises. that's what they are. >> john: very true. at times i think the problem is not religion as it is tribalism. if we were to get rid of all religion wouldn't the prejudices and hatreds find new voice through a new vehicle? >> well, i wonder about that actually, because i think the content of some belief systems really does play a significant

role. if you seriously think that you're going to go to heaven and get a lot of wonderful rewards if you do something horrible to your enemies then that might be a major motivation. it is really scary to think people who believe that they have no reason to fear death because they're going to be rewarded and for those of us who think that death is an end to life that puts all of the focus on our activity here. it makes us conscious of the fact that the great value of life means that, we have to respect our fellows and their right to life, too. >> john: you have a great quote. you write everywhere that science and education have advanced so, religion has dwindled in influence. seemingly here in america as if the more science and education flourish, the more harden and centralized and more fervent religious followers get in their devotion. is that because government is -- can help an overly vocal minority get more power than they really deserve? >> yes i think in many

societies, for historical reasons, and also because of what used to be called the respected gender. people of faith get the tax breaks and you know, they get somewhere up at the top of the line whenever people have to be in line for something. but i think what's really happening is with the advances in knowledge and technology and our understanding of the world around us and ourselves indeed most religions are feeling a little embattled. they tend to make more noise. so the amplification of their point of view goes up. you can mistake that for a resurgence of belief. the overall trend in the united states with the pew polling data suggests more than a third of people under 35 no longer say they have a religious commitment. they're described as nuns, aren't they? the nonbox.

that seems to suggest the trend is moving against people of religion and naturally enough, they become rather more robust in their response. >> john: it appears fundamentalist religion of all stripes is the world's largest creator of atheist. professor a.c. grayling, fascinating. i recommend everyone read your excellent book. what a pleasure. >> thank you very much. >> john: president obama privately talks about going bull worth. i'm still not clear if he means speaking the truth or hook up with halle berry. i'll explore in my own commentary coming up next. coming on to me all the time now. (vo) she gets the comedians laughing and the thinkers thinking. >>ok, so there's wiggle room in the ten commandments, that's what you're saying. you would rather deal with ahmadinejad than me. >> and so would mitt romney. (vo) she's joy behar. >>and the best part is that current will let me say anything. what the hell were they thinking?

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