german. revolutionary divider of the church great communicator i'm talking about martin luther with clausen from the lutheran church in germany the ek d. welcome to the interview. thanks for inviting me. exactly five hundred years ago luther nailed his ninety five feces to the door of the castle church invited him back an innovative way of communicating a message was luther the first blogger. yes. i mean might not really have used to hammer a nail. but he didn't just use the printing press to convey his message. he created publicity and before that there hadn't been a public arena for debating and spreading ideas. you favor a traditional means of communication the book your latest one is called ninety five

questions about the reformation it includes unusual questions such as who invented the most popular luther quote. so who was it that. you know it's a nice quote that goes even if i knew the world were ending tomorrow i would plant an apple tree today and we don't know who came up with it and a lot of luther quotes were made up and that one dates to after the second world war. there was a message of hope and attributing it to luther gave it added impact. and what does your book tell us about its author how does luther matter to you. i love luther as existential religious intensity. the fact that faith was so pivotal to him i think his passion is amazing and. we're on the subject of books what would have become of luther if the printing press hadn't been invented just

a footnote in history. most probably would have been put to death during the persecution of heretics in the middle ages and his ideas would have been forgotten i guess that's one hundred book was his salvation. i thought it was not just an instrument for spreading his message it gave him a public platform where he and design ideas could survive. and proved to be so influential this happened five hundred years ago how much of luther's thinking is still relevant. yeah. that's a very good question. we've been examining it for the past decade and especially this year it's important for german culture in general after all go to in chile didn't come all that much later. we think about our relationship to them what still moves us what's alien to us today. with martin luther there are issues that are

still relevant such as the compatibility of faith and freedom the importance of personal faith and how this creates community. and also the question of how you live your faith and how it's reflected in your professional ethos. these questions still affect us today. would you say that luther fought against the catholic fundamentalists against fossilised beliefs and hypocrisy. protestants like to see it but of course isn't it true you know it's too polemical the fact is the papal church was very modern and highly innovative in a different sense. but you mention luther is opposition to fundamentalism and that is still a very timely issue we are witnessing a lot of religious fundamentalism today luther did fight passionately for what he believed in and he was not tolerant but he was an anti fundamentalist he said

religion should always be chosen freely you can't force it on anyone that's come on . he also fought hypocrisy couldn't we do with some of that attitude today think of the climate agreements we sign and never actually implement and. got a. doctrine of sin is hard for us to grasp today like what exactly constitutes sin . for luther it's about lying to yourself. lying to others and lying about your old tarrier motives he called for sinners to atone for their sins but what he meant was understand yourselves make peace with yourself and your fellow human beings and i see that as a universal issue that he put out. there also had his dark side he was anti semitic he didn't think much of women's rights or of why. in general is he really a role model kind of guys for tell. me that we shouldn't have role models we should learn from historical figures like martin luther. the woman question is actually

quite differentiated is was a marriage of equals which was very unusual for the time but he was deeply conservative and from our perspective the worst thing was his hatred of the jews especially in his later years. i believe i've read that even his contemporaries were appalled by that to some extent that's why he was extreme even though he could have jews was widespread extreme things he wouldn't. go. there preached freedom freedom of faith and the individual but he also caused religious division which led to the violent and bloody religious wars in which hundreds of thousands died in the big question is was it worth it. yes yes yes yes. or no. that's a good question it's never worth it you have a single human life is worth more than any theological principle and from today's

point of view what happened is horrifying but at the same time it was a hard one lesson in the value of religious tolerance for germany and europe and you would think. that these days efforts are being made to heal the rift between protestants and catholics has this year in particular helped rebuild bridges. yes. that's been a positive aspect of this five hundred year anniversary of the reformation. not everything worked out so well but on many levels from senior bishops to local communities there's been much cooperation all in a spirit of friendship a shared quest self-awareness and mutual curiosity. that can't easily be put into a legal or diplomatic text but it was a breath of fresh air for the ecumenical movement. what happened what didn't work out so well last time there were some of events where we were too self-involved and overestimated our capacity to mobilize the public they weren't as well attended as

we had hoped but we don't celebrate an anniversary like this one every day five hundred years of the reformation is a milestone and we need to learn how to be visible to society at large. if you're a lutheran church wants to reach out to catholics there are still fundamentalist elements in the catholic church who believe in the infallibility of the pope which is exactly what luther opposed will you ever reach agreement. i think we'll have to live with the fact that there are different forms of christianity we should learn to stop being moaning our differences and live with diversity which if you fight. these is what i have for you personally the luther years meant hundreds of festivities church services podium discussions it's very stressful what do you gain from the luther year more interest in the church more people joining the church and not just attending church conferences but other

events to. raise public awareness of basic issues that we address and which matter. and the media has played an important part. i think in addition to all the events there have been many high quality t.v. programs radio programs and newspaper articles that show that there is considerable public interest in finding out more. everybody wants to be recruited to the church but they're interested in reading and learning about it so we want to be there for them and to answer their questions the president is on vacation in recent years there have been reports about the climbing church membership including germany's lutheran church people are leaving in droves as the luther your stop this trend if you know it wasn't designed as a marketing campaign aimed at a turnaround but it might have had that effect exactly but i think major cultural

events like this have a more subtle but also more sustainable effect that we've already gained a lot if we've awakened interest in religious questions and topics. for us it's important not just that people come back to the church but that we the church reach out to people with cultural events and collaborate with museums and concert venues that we go beyond the church walls and i think that has happened even effect in hockey. yeah. i mean you see the media focused on the church thanks to the luther year and gave it a lot of coverage i've read that you didn't like one media description of luther as the first example of a so-called angry citizen why not. that was what it was a series in the magazine dish be good. but the media tends to over simplify. calling luther the first angry citizen associated him with the wave of right wing populism we're seeing in germany and i didn't like that association luther was

passionate he was extremely polemical he could be very hurtful but he was also willing to compromise yet agenda.