whole country and the whole ministers the whole region grid you don't try to government the government they try to you know rescue a journalist from a country you know it's something that we have never witnessed in our country and in the country other countries trying to put much more journalists in jail so it's really the thing that we need to add my first but the thing is there's a still huge poke received in the german government like one year ago. told to the press that took his government is getting away from being a democratic and the rule of law country he said it in may two thousand and seventeen and after the news has been released the same minister mr guppy told to the press that talks government is always careful about freedom of the judgments system from the government so it's really unbelievable and the things the details that we have learned about them is really is it shows us that there was a huge negotiation and both on both governments they knew that the this will be relieved the government had sent a private plane two or three days before this has been released to the plane we

learned from d.p.a. yesterday and we know that mr benoliel the docs prime minister when he came to to berlin before he met from work and he thought that i hope that the news will recently it will be so happy that he got released and one day later the prosecutor they prepared the indignant and one day later he is released and two days later the turkish prime minister in munich in the in the security conference he told that they are ready to produce a common thanks together with germany so unfortunately these small details shows that they knew it wasn't and then israelis were so happy about it really very very clever not to. just briefly on the tank issue i think we had quite far from that because. the commonly produced tank is basically. tacky ones this ones this tech is tank and so they can provide some things to that but the main technical technologically advanced power. it would come from ryan mittal. and i

think we are still very far from that kind of an agreement because at the moment it's politically you can't implement you can't explain that and particularly why that campaign is open the question of the future but i think what is what this what you've just said shows is that it was surely political the whole process to put him to rest him to release him it was all political dealings and but but it all happens in the framework of what the turkish government wants at the moment normalization and gabrial i think he played that game with the turkish government by said by saying quote unquote independent judicial system of turkey. was it ironic wasn't sad casting wasn't cynical i don't listen let's pick up on the point of normal normalization germany and western

countries have criticized turkey's response to the two thousand and sixteen failed coup tens of thousands of people have been jailed many more have lost their jobs in turkey is reported to be a world leader in the imprisonment of journalists. the authorities moved the site of the trial of the joe memory of journalists from the palace of justice in histon ball to a high security prison that's a livery that's where denise was held in pretrial detention. but the defendant supporters turned out again and again to protest what they consider the anti-democratic policies of the turkish government. that she is the best known journalist among the defendants he's been in jail for more than a year. another journalist at all times his brother and four others were sentenced to life in prison just hours after your job was released. how far has

turkey moved away from the rule of law. the big question how far is turkey moved away from the rule of law and michel i was just talking about the prospects of normalization of relations between germany and turkey gemma's to be a very prominent green politician with turkey's german roots has come out and said normalization of this point in time is absolutely not possible is he right to review. and i think that's clear to everyone here in germany that you cannot it's not like the chancellor merkel yet but you know what she tries her best you know she is someone who never ever escalates. a to the head get ahead of developments she is very very cautious and of course it would be for her it would be completely it would be dangerous to somehow incense that adeline but i think at the same time everyone knows that he's a dictator and budgeting cannot count on what he's doing next and what everyone

wants is that more tourists come to come to the turkey i think. that. germany to. issue its own inhabitants that they can. travel safely to turkey because turkey really needs this money from the german tourists and many of the true us stayed at home because they have head of turkey and of course the whole issue often as you say is that they made it clear to the germans that is safe to travel to turkey i think that's the main reason why dennis was finally released somehow. pop up business. move my receiver meetings between anglo american and the prime minister were seen meetings between two foreign ministers they were very very engaged in a two day ceremony a friendly together that sounds like normalization to me. well it sounds i mean that's that's what the politicians do and the thing is we as journalists we need to tell the realities i mean of course i would i would never ask or wait that my

country would have huge problems with journey of course these two countries should vote together they have a long tight in history i mean like more than three or four million people living in germany or just people that's quite good the relations should be good but the thing is. we shouldn't get used to the politicians people crissy we should always force them to come first to talk about the realities i mean when then is is free we shouldn't think that everything is ok everything got normalized between two countries and we shouldn't tell the scenes of the turkish government what they're still doing shall we keep silence no we should still continue criticizing them but what's really happening nobody's especially in the german government is they stop criticizing what's really going on in the country like every a picture to buy d.p.a. and until an agency which shows that a tank produced by germany was used in syria and they showed that picture to the

press guy of the german government and he said that we don't have any information if these low part tanks are being used in syria or not but there are still pictures even denver is the reality they're trying not to talk about it but that's that's really the nest the face of the politics when you talk about realities just tell our audience a little bit about what the situation is like for you on the ground into you because you are of fiercely critical. journalist working criticizing the turkish government and living in turkey was like well it's not easy actually when you're sitting on your desk and try to type you're trying to type your article you always think that after a couple of days and when your when your story is when a column is being to translate and published in germany they can knock your door in the middle of the night if that didn't happen you don't feel yourself free to write everything but the thing is some wish to should do that i mean even my very. close friends are in jail and we should do something for them they're not outside and they can try to we should do the realities on the ground the problem is. they side

with the whole community i mean they always think that we put that journalist in the jail and ok that nobody will be able to criticize of actually putting some johns in the jail is the message to the rest of the media so the rest of the media are frightened not to write and think about that we don't have any mainstream media in the country that's the biggest problem in talking. to money is rigid tired to want a dictator. if we if we talk about dictatorship we talk about a concept of the twentieth century i think. i think what he is doing is he's establishing and strong authoritarian system with some democratic decoration insists. he's he's having elections and he but by having elections he makes sure that he's going to win these elections entirely he you still have every time

you say dictatorship and somebody comes along and says well but there there are newspapers which are still reporting more or less friendly but of course these newspapers are insignificant so that is basically what we today call a hybrid autocratic hybrid offering tarion system that's what we have so and that leads me to the point where we were just talking about the normalization question i think this is the reason why there can't be any normalization because what we have in turkey is the end is the total absence of the rule of law. germany is a state with the rule of law and that is why these two states are to a certain degree incompatible and this is the reason why i think in the future we'll have lots of problems precisely because of that because turkey is asking for the extradition of turks living in germany germany won't do it all these kinds of

things so we'll run of new it into numerous problems because of that that mismatch of the two systems where we've mentioned already the president that iran has ordered a military offensive in northern syria it's getting a lot of backing back home in turkey a lot of international criticism here are some images of what's going on. turkish president type heir to one portrays himself as an uncompromising defender of national unity and he will do whatever it takes to block kurdish demands for more autonomy. or to one has also vowed to crush terrorist groups that he claims turkey's sovereignty. turkish troops continue their offensive against a syrian kurdish rebel group called the y. p.g. but the u.s. considers the y.p. g a key ally in the fight against what's left of the islamic state organization. the alliances among the states involved in the syrian conflict are constantly

shifting. his or her to one leading turkey into international isolation. so let's pick up immediately oh my course you know ricker is the president to a leading took into international isolation well he is leading turkey into a confrontation with the us but of the same time he comes on brusha that's very obvious that now is somehow a that he things that his biggest ally is putin at the same time of close turkey is the become part of it fourteen is the one who says what is happening in turkey has some hold obey but that's at this find i think the best option. adlon things he has because he wanted to have a wall in order to somehow. have a good news for his own domestic base because at home they have a big economic problems and the economy is collapsing there's a high unemployment so he needed to somehow put himself into the role of

a big war hero so that was all it was about to move how was tooken status as a nato member affected by the crackdown at home in the military incursion abroad. series of is a values based alliance it's a values based alliance that is what basically the wisdom of the past ten years or so if we look further back into history of course we had examples like port hugo and the silos we had three s. and turkey for that matter during the coup times one thousand nine hundred sixty seventy eighty so that as. nato has always been an alliance of members with. some doubtable credentials and matter but here what what we face is the problem of turkey and

the us on two sides of the battle battle trends and syria and that is a problem so if we will come i think the visit of foreign minister to lesson in ankara has led to some easing off the tensions between the u.s. and there's an agreement that they don't want to confront each other on the battlefield but i don't know if a ha long that lasts and all depends on how far. and where add one will turn his troops to so if he goes in the direction of men beach town in northern syria. just controlled with u.s. soldiers i think will definitely see a confrontation because. the so-called adults in the room and washington. the ministers of. the diamond transit and they are not willing to concede this kind of control because it's the last stronghold of the u.s. in syria so that might then have effects after all and that on it might have

effects after all also a nato but we are not there yet i think even never risk it because you know if. everyone knows that trump has no personal interest in syria and that he will not engage in syria but of course if if one attacked u.s. soldiers then being in much of just as adeline but no longer tolerate it and you know it and i think that's something i don't really understand i think he knows what trump is like because he is like trump himself so he would never ever attack i think you know it's like i said you're right but mind you add one did that mistake with russia one's heart on a russian act and. he still i have no trust in this man this riyadh police but let's see him and now well everything is based on the elections in the one where he was there until i was there in the presidential

leadership presidential elections at the end of twenty nine this is the stepping stone the reason that our government and other army say is that the kurdish guerrillas they're linked to peter king and their third organization so we need to them all the stuff that's that's kind of understandable reasons for turkish government but the question is recently for a couple of years this area is in the in the store discuss why today why the turkish troops today started of order and it's all about their lives in two thousand and nineteen and all polls show that before the operation they just are free before death like before christmas we all saw that the polls show that here's what's we're on forty and there were less than the last referendum because you really cannot mix after with the economy cries that international problems they all creates really unhappiness in the country and he needed he needs and they should list rick perry to be able to be like the emperor of offering we know that. today there was that there was kind of a. story in a newspaper at

a calmness or wrote that if he cannot win the first round in two thousand and nineteen between two elections he can open the third song conflict zone in syria two to be able to win it so he can do anything to win that election because it's kind of a race for him he will he will be able to stay or not in two thousand one hundred three important for him ok we began with you but i tell you i there's one question i'd like to go off and it's sort of a little bit of a tangent and just ask you we talked we've talked in the discussion about how dependent turkey's on germany turkey is perhaps on nato membership how dependent is germany on. there are hostages that is a big nato partner and of course the refugee problem and the refugee records problem is number one which took a poor population here in germany and as you know that's right but the poll that had been published by big last week it's shows that that the heart of the fear in this country is getting bigger and bigger about the refugees and that helps if the

in this country so if anything happen in the country changed or influenced what's grilli going to in the germany too. thank you very much for those thoughts thank you all for and for being yeah we've been discussing turkey dinners you jelly's free walk again is turkey playing was the question rest i'll be giving you we've given you plenty of food for thought come back next week bye bye interest.