guild motto e.w. correspondent and avid baker crop. turns to spend let's go about recipes for success and strategies that make a difference. baking bread. d.w. . there's less than a month to go before britain showed your departure from the e.u. and the union is staking out its final positions on the terms of withdraw my guest this week here in brussels is the belgian m.e.p. philippe lamberts who sits on the european parliament next it steering committee as the e.u. negotiated in good faith and is that famous unity of the twenty seven beginning to crack.

down bads welcomes conflicts of thank you let's talk first about bracks it if we may on the possibility that britain might seek an extension of the article fifty process you said the other day an extension must be accompanied by a credible plan for holding a people's vote on the final deal that includes an option to remain in the e.u. well that's my preference but that's most there must be a credible plan and since when is it your job to tell the british people that they should have another vote on the referendum not they should have votes on i'm not telling them i know that my little must they must my my people in britain tell me that's what they want my allies in britain the greens s.n.p. and the welsh party do want these people stop so i support him some people do but i know but my people in britain wants to one day so i say you have to do but you come out and say this and you're interfering in the democratic processes of last wednesday i'm just picking up my mind i'm not instructing the brits what to do what i'm saying is that if they want an extension they need to say for what and it can

be a people's vote it can be a new election it it must be we need some time to actually say what angela merkel says that they should have their extension we're not going to say no to it she says there should be an orderly bracks it i agree with that for the for for britain but not at any cost not at any cost because even though it's in everybody's interest isn't it you don't want to say you don't want to see. an orderly not just not just any old only breaks it just imagine that we do it the way the g.m. wants us to do it basically what they want us is to open a five hundred fifty kilometers back door into the single market uncontrolled and policed and that any that's simply not true that he settled that is simply not true that they have offered all kinds of means of checking what goes through an old genes you must be kidding in a common rule book whereby they would agree by treaty to harmonize the xians journeys with the humans really dealing you're talking about the european research

great seconds of government i'm talking about the government we british government i mean you go around saying that britain wants you to stop policing your battles let us know they've offered you they've offered you a number of different ways they've offered shocking what go through cannot order absolutely not and this is why they have what's called you know book i mean that's terrorism may suggest that i'm sorry to say it's not because you say something that it is true it's not because you say that they've offered to controls that it is true they've just said maybe technology will see this you know what i want to twenty two mario more than i would want to understand he turned down the technological suggestions exactly because the suggestion was made you can use this fantasy you can say they're fantasy you can not like them but don't say that they weren't offered they were i mean it if i offer you a double sun in the sky i can see that it doesn't make it happen misalignments this

is the key sticking point the irish border the border between the irish republican northern ireland. if britain crashes out without a deal day one on this board or what happens there will be controls prosecuting upton's controls well both sides will need to put their own says it isn't anonymous as it isn't of course of finance as it isn't well we will need to have contingency plans for that of course so what are your contingency in this one from day one of course you don't expect that smugglers will start importing goods into europe because at the moment we have alignment but very soon if this border is not policed well it will be of use and i'm of the e use plans than what we will believe that we are going to put these plants in the only one to two hundred eight border crossing yes and you propose to police all those to you when we will need to control we will need to come against the wishes of the irish state against the wishes of the irish while i believe made it perfectly clear what we're saying is very clear this from simon the foreign minister the irish government will not support the reemergence of border

infrastructure on this island can it be clearer than that no it cannot be clearer than that but then they know the consequence is that then we will put the checks elsewhere than on the in try responder who who will put the check was the european union member states what do you believe what do these checks look like then who is going to put the money from tax not from takes i mean did the customs. the custom sort of three thousand the various member state i mean what you believe do you believe that we are going to let any good enter the european union just unchecked and so if if the i respond to it then of course people on the continent will and so there will be a border between learned and other and and you have to tell you that the republic of ireland is very much your complaint about the integrity of the single market and doesn't want to be excluded from the single market and believe me and this is the calculus that many british are just ignoring is that yes heartbreaks it will be

damaging for you twenty seven it would be even more for the u.k. but that is not our problem it will be the. twenty seven but what does lose weight lose lose simon kovan he said absolutely lose absolutely but then again disintegrating the single market just to please the g. will be even more damaging and between two evils we have to to some lesser one so it's a choice between the good friday agreement in the single market as. well it isn't fair for a new wall dublin that if it came to a choice between those two things you would decide that the single market was more important well we will decide that hey are you a bad play i mean the british or the british politicians remind us too often and not only about the british position too but what you i'm talking to you you know me to you you sound whether you want to listen or not i mean i don't care i mean that's your point you want an answer i give it to you i mean the brits are responsible for the good friday agreement we are not i mean the two parties to the good friday agreement other republic of ireland and the united kingdom and i mean

it is the responsibility of the united kingdom to stand by its word and what is not doing and what the extremists the extreme prejudice are doing is basically we need seeing the good friday agreement you cannot want all the details here and we were going to agreement you went to as far as we dream but we cannot defend it if one of the two parties to the good friday agreement doesn't give ireland a choice don't you good friday i mean the brits or the single mother the brits have to make of their minds whether they want to stand by an agreement an international agreement or decide it is their responsibility you told an audience in dublin that if the government said to hell with the single market let's keep the good friday agreement any cost well there be twenty six other member states who won't see it that way exactly so you're opening up a huge rift between arlen the rest of the lawyers for it for again the two parties to the good friday agreement to decide what they want to do but the prime responsibility lies with the british government and the british parliament because they are the ones with sucked the very basis of the foundation on which

a good friday agreement is built that this the common man. the ship of both the republic and the united kingdom to the european union it is what to me possible the good friday agreement if the brits removed their part of the foundation they have to replace it with some so you're a sickly went to threaten ireland you know your message to dublin was worse don't want to hear that the e.u. interests are more important than yours no we are not just saying we are just saying that we ever responsibility for the single market island and united kingdom have a responsibility for the good friday agreement will do everything we can within the reach of the space of reason to support a good trade agreement but if one of the two parties to the good president reagan breaks it what can we do what can we do and just to ram home your message to the irish you gave the example of the greek crisis where you said the e.u. dylan did whatever it took to keep the integrity of the manager and would do whatever it took interesting that you mention the example of greece because it's

one of the great examples of how the e.u. was willing to trash the economy of a member country and humiliate its people simply to keep its precious rules intact and you were basically offering the same to ireland no no whatever the cost to you will be it will keep the single market into it and i think i have reasons to think that the irish government also want to keep the integrity of the single market believe me and look what look what you're measures did to greece one in three miners might be any use measure i don't know who you are but i was not a group i was not but while we fought against these measures one in three living below the poverty line some five hundred more suicides registered the motherlode frame three hundred thousand nine hundred this this is how you impose your rules on the countries are you looking at. you know i'm not. the troika i'm not that took over the economy i might have and i the european union no but you

want to say to that they would use the same priorities to keep the single market is that i take my cue from history and when the european council wants to keep the integrity of the monetary you know single market dead to me nation is complete i'm not a head of state and government i am a member of the european parliament i will never accept to be taken well made accountable for policies decided by politicians which with whose political orientation i don't share as you know if you follow greed policies that we fought against the memoranda they were imposed on greece all along because we know that the greek rescue plans were actually rescue plans for the bank for been paid back by folk at the end goal you know debt so if you want to make me appear as if i were mr troika mr european council well this is this is a game right so no i am not a player in that game sorry so you're against maintaining the integrity of the

single market at any cost what are you playing at are you i must give you a question and say no i want to keep the integrity of the single market i don't want whatever the cost to the member state without whatever the cost to the member states but the actually what you are asking if if i may is basically that we give way to the most extreme prejudice in the u.k. who one day taken it is why should we do this one if you end up with no deal on bricks because neither side has blinked your rules the e.u. has rules would have served no useful purpose were they going to use a take they would have taken everybody to a place they don't want to get to know is that a lose lose lose situation i suppose but i think that doesn't mean you that i think that one hundred to use one to go there and fine by me i mean they do whatever they like if they have a majority in parliament to do that work who am i to oppose this but i do believe that the vast majority of britain. citizens don't want that to happen let them manifest themselves through their representatives in the house of commons if rules

don't produce winners was the point of having them well don't you believe that the single market produces winners i mean we are better off with a single market in a globalised economy than by the author in this instance if everybody will lose from we would lose from the outcome if britain crashes out there's no deal very loose from what you say the rules do you then go and say to europe we kept our rules intact but never mind i mean they lost out badly and we're losing out bad everybody loses let me let me just remind you one thing is that if we destroy the single market just to please the hand-picked city is the damage will be an order of magnitude bigger so yes it's an evil yes situation but giving the extremists their way would be massively more damaging and yes we would have preferred to avoid breaks it but if it comes to that well we will choose the form of brakes it that is the least damaging the damage there will be you cut off your nerves to spite your face you do something that damages you as well while we

are protecting our interests as best as we can do cause the damage in the first place are those who chose to interpret the results of the refresh them in the most extreme way there was not one way to interpret the result of the referendum a form of frex it had to be negotiated quite obviously there was a mandate for fifty to forty eight to do that but nothing nothing to more force and i see democracy is messy you see it exactly when the prime minister said we are going to be out of the single market and customs union and jurisdiction of the c.g. and everything we are going to respect the good friday agreement and we are going to have no divergence between northern ireland and the rest of the u.k. you know what she was just saying something that was impossible i mean these three things are mutually exclusive i mean it's not because you say and you keep repeating them that you make them possible. i mean when they are mutually exclusive they are and actually the predicament of theresa may is one of her hand making

she decided to go that way she could have chosen a different interpretation of directed and actually what the hundred cities fail to recognize is that many promises they made during the campaign were made were actually made impossible by the existence of the good friday agreement and i want to move on because i want to talk about prioritizing rules ahead of results no no no no it's prioritizing results ahead of root look at i mean at the security arrangements for instance new security arrangements between the e.u. in the u.k. and the haste in which the e.u. is going to cut britain out of databases showing in dangerous areas and europe database how does that serve the security interests of europe prioritizing rule those rules and procedures over safety and security because the e.u. will be less secure without britain as and it's a part of that system and britain will be less a cure is may well be but are you prepared to have that you could prioritize the

facts how are we going to get the best deal we have and then again i'm sorry to instead of just cutting them out of the databases i don't know what game you're playing but the point is that you fail to recognise that. do you mean union as a value in itself a single market as a value we need in terms of providing leverage right and basically what you say is that for short term expediency we should sacrifice a leverage the safety of europeans is short term expedient absolutely because you really achieve the same goal you can achieve the same goal while keeping the integrity of the european union the united kingdom can have security agreements with the united european union but decent to be negotiated if the united kingdom wants to become a third state fine but that it will be treated as a third state and we will have bilateral negotiations and we'll see what comes out of the numbers were europe is concerned about forty percent of everything that europe or does is linked to work that is provided or requested by the u.k.

in twenty seven it's one area where the u.k. invested in a you institution you know in twenty seventeen the u.k. contributed over six thousand pieces of information to your opponents more than any other country yeah and you will lose that bike necessarily we'll go she out we will negotiate we will negotiate but do you think that negotiation starts by accepting what your opposite number wants no that's not how it works out negotiated long enough in my life to know that the negotiation starts when the customer says no right and intense when the customer says yes what you negotiator seem to obsess about is that britain must appear to lose no from this absolutely not i mean you have made it clear that leave leaving the e.u. is a mistake and that should become a self-fulfilling prophecy now now in has to lose its loses britain has to lose i mean you played the part but that again is a lunacy i mean. no we just say that membership of the european union has benefits

and of course if you're not member you don't enjoy those benefits it's not punishment to just say no but if you like it my point is that you could have enjoyed those benefits you could have prioritized. results over process but you don't do that you say that you say that you are the one who said that i think it's twenty so now you have preserve the integrity of the european union and its single market in the negotiation with britain because in twenty seven of you who complain that the e.u. was a bureaucratic leviathan. now you seem to be a cheerleader and i know you to be a cheerleader for i mean democracy is messy as you said i mean this is bureaucracy we're talking about yeah but we are talking about the rules we have talking about the institutions of the first attempt in the world of having a transnational democracy do believe that it happens without difficulty snow of course not that would have the rules certainly not without actually selective d. is pretty selective about which rules it says and which it doesn't give me an

example ok let's take the stability for pact yes right fact is that since it was introduced not a single year has gone by without at least one member countries firearms is breaching you remember the commission president because from his claim in twenty sixteen france was given that you're so wrong. exactly whilst we're a sample of your i don't perfectly well i share your criticism about that because indeed it seems to be an assault offered to speed judgement on the public finances if you're a big country you will be treated differently in a small country and there's evidence to that and so i'm internally sixteen when spain and portugal breached the rules process decided to set fines. zero exactly what message does that send that these rules are not really credible i know that you are a group you're going to view rules when you feel like you knew enforce them well yeah but then again when it suits you well it's really interesting because you treat me as if i were the european union you know european union is diverse there's diversity in our democracy this people who are greedy with certain policies and

those who disagree with them and i happen to agree some and to disagree with some pretense democracy you are in favor of i mean we have been saying all and i saw your single market yes but i'm also on record saying that the budgetary rules of the european union and fit for purpose that's reality they have no scientific ground at all we rolled the three percent rule so the fact that public budgets cannot go over three percent that he said. and public debt cannot go over sixty percent of g.d.p. and you know what these figures exactly zero scientific substance they are purely arbitrary and so indeed you cannot do good policies without. just based on arbitrary figures so if these rules are unfit for purpose i am not that worried that well we play with them because well they are under you or do you play well let's talk about human rights because this is essential that you care about you

wrote a couple of years ago that the most powerful breath of hope for all those who were living under the oppression of oratory regimes was the european union well i'm not anymore is that you're right i mean when i do the more how we are we go in bed with a likes of mohammed l.c.c. or putin or models you see let's take that example a couple of days ago you happy that he was the interim legitimacy absolutely not absolutely not so in ohio you rail about it but nothing's ever done that well we you continue with association agreements with egypt you will hit them you wear it again you again i mean you don't get them where you can continue playing that game as if i were the european union and i'm not i'm a member of the european parliament one of seven hundred fifty one and i happen to disagree with those policies and you know i'll just tell you one thing the number one customers of the weapons industry in france in belgium in the united kingdom is which country. with

a dictatorship being put in place by mohamed but it's been sound that i have taken risks in my own country saying that we should have an arms embargo against soldier depriving the main belgian weapons producer of its main client we have taken political risk to stand by all five news yes we did. but those values were show in sharm el sheikh where they now they were maps in stead of concentrating on rules and regulations and protecting the single market the you should show a bit more principle i think that that indeed we should stand by our principles and again our principles should be underpinned by order to to sions the twenty decided to ignore them what can i do the good news is that well there's various flavors of political leaders in europe and not all of them are prepared to do just anything to . just serve their short term interests small wonder that when the scene as you said before is

a bureaucratic leviathan and doesn't live up to its human rights principles the number of people voting in european elections chios going down i wasn't it and that's already fourteen was the lowest of a very two and six percent are nothing to be proud of is not no absolutely not we are fighting like not going is ever closer union i want more of the same no that's again a misrepresentation we want more integration but more not more of the same because you can have an integration with different policies poor and then money into endemically corrupt countries and broken the balkans the knolls we didn't say that we didn't have so i mean you get you can spend your whole time putting words in my master diet that i don't agree with it won't but it won't but little a very negative conversation doesn't mean this ever closer union ever closer union is basically a statement of fact united kingdom france germany italy let's take these four countries the biggest in europe. barely one percent of the population each of the global population i mean those well some people and you may be part of them maybe

not may think that the united kingdom once was a global superpower and will be one again these days are over over but the only good let me finish the only way for europeans to carry any weight on the global scale facing to putting some of this world facing the direction of this world facing climate change facing the power of pickup rates is to act to get the days no way around this if you want to have hungry poland with questionable views on the rule of law and that's what we're ever closer union with them well there's many democrats hungry again we have a hunger in government which is sort of critic which is not respecting the principles of the european union which wants to retake the year if you don't you're in a very different dogs actually from you but i think you will go see a union but but i have confidence that the forces of democracy of real democrats in europe will be stronger than these autocrats and i hope they will because indeed there is a rise of populism in europe doesn't look like it doesn't well wait for the results

of the twenty one thousand elections and then we'll talk i know you did better in bavaria and you done a little better in your city but there but they're very strong and they're very powerful and we will see whether they keep gaining strength and i doubt it will see people in europe aren't happy with the way the european union deals with fraud for instance we had a new report in january revealed that the e.u. lost more than nine billion euros to fraud between two thousand to two thousand seven hundred member states doing very little to prevent or punish those who were identified as suspects major issue i agree i agree and you mentioned later how as i was closer union going to do anything about that when it's not it's not as if closer union is necessary closer union with that kind of behavior i mean the united kingdom would you advocate the solving the united kingdom because well we observe that at the moment we are not fighting fraud enough in the first. this is that working a lot of people are talking about dissolving the united kingdom you know well i'm

not one of them so no it's not because while some processes don't work well invention that we saw we should be sold belgium or france or any country mansoul it's a thanks them they got a prime minister says less is more he doesn't want to see you i mean all closer union you know when he says do fewer things better yeah of course he's been a consultant i've been long enough in business to recognise that kind of offer glossy glossy guys who will come with slogans which mean nothing less and you don't you don't go you're not of you'll see a guy coming with slogans no sorry sorry i've been there i've been there twenty two years in real business i've seen the economy from the inside i've seen i've seen to the newly built version of globalisation from the inside so you can just say that i'm a glossy politician want to impress me much wanted press me watch and talk to my well talk to my photos they will they will make that judgment as to also lead i will see fit of number that's closely or not it's good to have your comfort zone thank you

so much a real pleasure i just enjoyed every minute of. i'll. i'll . i'll. i'll go. i'll be good. education.

in two years this will be the european capital of culture but the ancient city of l.f. siena has lost its luster. it's currently home to a huge ship graveyard. burgeoning bureaucracy and a lack of funding for stifling cleanup operations. so when will the left seen a sparkle again. thirty minutes on d w.

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this is d w news live from berlin china's far away goes on the offensive the tech company is suing the u.s. government it says that a law limiting its access to the american market is unconstitutional. also coming up natural beauty and a manmade conflict the himalayan valley of kashmir takes center stage again a long running dispute between india and pakistan our correspondent needs people there who say that all they want now is peace. person on credit and as well as government that spells.