only a promise to his son were sorely want to return to the concrete and glass jungle of new york. resolved because culture. from the forest starts first on w. . hello and welcome to quadriga declaring that europe has never been so necessary as today nor so endangered french president emanuel mccall has once again laid out a vision for europe for what he calls a renaissance saying that he wants to mobilize citizens across the continent in the run up to elections for the european parliament less than two and a half months from now in fact many share macross view that the e.u.

is facing its most acute crisis yet increasingly divided over policy toward migrants disillusioned by a prolonged and chaotic breck set and polarized by the rise of right wing nationalism. or the populists who can convince europe that's the title of our show today and here i guess it's who will answer that question it's a pleasure to welcome you whole she is german but lived for many years in belgium and in france she's a professor of political science and heads the department of european studies and democracy at the claims university in austria and she says europe can only be successful if the german and french leaders move closer together derek scally is from ireland and works as the berlin correspondent for the irish times and he thinks for years germany's e.u. vocation has been a self deception dusty clichéd phrases that are twenty years old and convince no

one anymore and if the pleasure to welcome the niche he is originally from slovakia and works as an analyst on eastern europe for the german think tank. he says president constituted polarization has so far benefited the populace in a paradox when a it plays into the hands of hungary's prime minister orbán and his framing of european parliamentary elections through a us versus them lens. so let me start out. by asking you this opinion polls actually show that sixty two percent of european citizens and in many countries more than that have a positive opinion of the e.u. so is the situation really as dire as president to crawl laid it out it is the very existence of the european union in fact in danger as he sets i think if you ask people what do they think about i mean it's a bit like asking people what is your opinion of christmas you know sixty seventy eighty percent will have a positive opinion we've never had in the european union is the discussion about

what kind of europe i mean what i've never personally ever understood is a national politics we say you know do we want more right wing policies more left wing policies you know it's politics there for the small people is it there to be pro-business and in europe as. soon as you get into that you start to get into you hate europe you can criticize europe and more slowly so actually starting to see thanks to the populace are actually starting to see a sort of differentiated fear of europe and my call comes along with his vision for in a sense for europe as if there can only be one europe and that is the europe he's proposing and anyone else who doesn't agree with that is somehow a critic of europe and wants to undermine europe and i find this rather depressing that we keep going around in this circle that the the dog keeps biting its own tail i thought after the euro crisis we realized that europe has to be for there for the people not just for the governments and i think mr mcconnell slightly living in sort of the twentieth century version of europe. your opening statement suggests

that you don't think president will achieve his goal of mobilizing citizens across europe you seem to think that his vision is counterproductive at least in the view of many eastern europeans why is that he's president of friends of his first task is to mobilize his own citizens to support the to support a marshall plan he said he's political party in may in the european parliament elections so far the hope he has not been does that successful in mobilizing actually his own waters potential voters and i think the projection for his party of european elections stands at twenty two seats which will put him even among the top three political parties in europe so my question would be with all these great divisions and oratory and potus what is actually political relevance of it who could be his allies and how strong this vision will be in terms of representation in a very divided and fragmented european parliament that we will get off of the elections let's talk about the degree to which he could find allies here in germany or he

could go home the last time the president might call laid out a big vision it was september of twenty seventeen and it was clearly timed and targeted toward german leaders that doesn't see. aim to be the case this time why is that what accounts for the difference when i mean it was targeted to germany you go to a response from i make it come come bob but let me pick up what they're expelled he said on the question i think there is sort of a twenty century vision when he targets there's only two of franklin german tandem because what is missing in the whole story is what do the citizens want from europe what does the people of europe one and if you are slovakia and a portuguese or irish frankly german tandem is not i mean it's always good but it's not sort of what you are caring for and i think the moment that you target this proposal from a call to america on the company you have a narrow discussion field on what is going on and i think there is really there it

is right in saying that we have a market now we have a currency but don't have a european democracy and there's not one vision like mccall's vision of how europe should be but there are many visions and the real problem is do we have an institutionalized structure of european democracies and then we decide the politics sort of believe on the left liberal green whatever europe or do we want europe at all and i would say what is not on the table is that we decide that we want to have a democracy in which we on the european level in which we then decide about the politics of the turn about this europe president mccrone says that the vision he is laying out actually would create a europe that would be more responsive to citizens needs and their expectations let's take a closer look at some of the proposals he's suggesting. macro's appeal to the citizens of europe appeared in all the big newspapers came twenty eight countries and twenty two languages. the french president is

a dedicated european. he believes that the continent is in danger and this was his wake up call. look upon school hopes and many believe that europe will be brought down by those who seek to sow division i believe that it may also be brought down by those who have given up on the idea of a strong and united europe. to correct the situation mccrone proposed in part to create a common european border force an asylum agency a crackdown on businesses that harm the environment or don't pay their taxes and an e.u. wide minimum wage. once again mccraw have sought to protect himself as a european visionary. but how much support to these proposals really have. starts going the proposals are pretty sweeping they range from defending electoral

democracy to industrial policy to environmental laws and stronger cooperation on defense can you unpack this package for us what do you see as key areas and you sounded skeptical about the degree to which this really does meet citizens needs i'm actually no longer really interested in these proposals until somebody comes along and says have the posts to do is what's the point in even talking about it it's just more ideas i mean i could come up with proposals for the european union and put them in twenty eight newspapers around the world i'd have to spend a lot of money on stamps and emails but i could do that unless he says how he proposes to do it who are his allies and these are just more proposals and i wish you know i wish more movement would come in here but even i'm starting to get cynical people can come up with think tanks in this is what think tanks are doing. head of he's the president of france what we saw as he puts proposals on the table germany comes along with its red pen puts around the red lines for about half of them and then

the other half say yeah maybe and then you ask the germans my favorite party trick these days is when i'm out to dinner table which erm politicians i say when was the last time germany had a good new idea for europe you just get these terrified faces they haven't had a good idea since home with coal they're very good at saying no and they're very good at saying why something won't work and that's starting to get really old let's come back in just a moment to germany's own ideas a lack there of but early to go i hear you making affirmative. sounds when it comes to derek skepticism about yet another big package of proposals the first they act totally underscore everything that they're still has said i mean we're not hanging around was this question since michael's proposals were essentially hanging around with them since the treaty of maastricht ever closer union ninety two so that's thirty years that we're discussing how to do a political union and that is thirty years how we did try to find a question to who decides in the european union is this the nation states is this the european commission the parliament or perhaps it's the european people in

a redesigned european institutional set up where the people other sovereign and these questions on the table we had a constitutional amendment to all three two thousand and three it failed we had two negative referenda it's time to go back to this moment because if we want europe and the twenty one europe that functions that it has officials see and that is political there's alex on the head of in a round nothing is without constitution so europe needs a constitutional it will fail just just just devil's advocate president mccraw did say he wants to see processes in institutions that would strengthen electoral democracy in europe and he has in the past proposed reforms to decision making structures among other things a finance minister for the eurozone who would have the ability to create real eurozone fiscal policy much of that has been going on. over very well with other guys and i am totally in favor of these proposals i think in essence it's good proposals but coming back to what their excuse says if we cannot implement them then its meaning as you and the real question is can the system away from itself i

think we are confronted with a stroke of momentum in which we are shown every day more that that you system in itself a perky has no more capacity or will or both to reform itself and that's why it's basically turning in circles and that's why we are having going from one proposal in the next memorandum to the next in the land without responding to the central question who these sites in europe and as long as we cannot put a clear answer behind this in the sort of political science terms we do not know who the sovereign is the nation state the european union or the people it should be the people in the time structure is it not speed and because of the current structure the people do not decide in europe europe is falling apart into the hands of populist millon ditched let's take one particular issue migration policy actually there are clear rules that decide about migration policy for europe but the eastern european countries have not been willing to go along with those rules the migration system in fact is broken as president mike ross said isn't it and his

proposals include measures that would strengthen border protection isn't that actually something eastern european countries would like to see yes well i'm happy that these government official countries are happy how the debate has developed in the last few years and they feel quietly winning the debate because they don't want to receive you as item speakers even though they are at historically low of unemployment in their own countries and they will need more people to work to fool these. lies economic growth that they have but of the same time they want to strengthen external border. i think centrism europeans like the. response that came from britain from the new chairwoman of the to do to mccrone ideas also because the successor cancel americal that they have for if they so want to say well yeah we know it is the head of the hearty sorry she's there. also what

could only see in these centuries in europe as somebody who is very much pushing french interest not european interest spiking is europe interest but he says these this is interest of frogs and i can even imagine how his how his hope that was put together that the best minds in french diplomatic service proposed these ideas but in the european council after the election in europe in parliament who will support us not centuries and europeans although i would credit mccrone with his tour to centuries to europe last summer and before he reached out to the northern europe to century appearance because he's trying to pick up winners and this is the crucial clash i think between paris and berlin what could old ones to move on into smaller europe germany is a start of cooperation and is terrified about starting to shake things up because. not only today but i think also the german foreign policy establishment is afraid that that's that's the stepping stone to disintegration so germany is no protecting

you at twenty seven of the brics it including hungary and in spite of what obama is doing. at all is trying to find the allies including in central eastern europe for his deeper integration so let me come back to whether in fact these proposals did find allies here in berlin derek you said in your opening statement that the german vocation is dusty in cliche did berlin dust itself off in response to propose they responded but that's all they do they respond they say yes to this and no to that i mean they said yes yes the border they said she also knocked in a few things like she said maybe we should get rid of the second seat of the european parliament which is in strasbourg she knowing france to say no she said we should have european seat to your un security council knowing that france has it sees and doesn't want to give it up so i saw she said yes to a couple of things but it just it sounded very much like uncle americal she. could

have written us opinion piece that it was very much sort of a defense of i have sympathy for the term position. germany has to try and hold things together but whenever you asked german politicians i asked angela merkel is what do you mean the middle of the euro crisis just for fun is that what you actually want for europe and apart from holding it together you can hold them to here and watch it fall apart you know it's like some sort of breast in you know to heroin you know if you're charged for mother courage tries to hold a family together and destroys it's holding together just isn't enough sometimes and where you know i was hoping with which for a come come i would hear a new tone but who's yes because these as i said these phrases from the cold air are really starting to look at it tired. just for clarification for some of our viewers this she whom derek was refute referring to there was not chancellor merkel it was her successor at the head of the christian democratic party on the great comp collins bauer who gave the response here to my cross proposals what do you

make of that why was it this new party leader a k k she's often known here what does that signify i think you can have two readings yeah if you're mccall you can say why did the chance last for me why is this the women of the party but you can't have a reading from i'm the guy has basically that i'm going to makkah let i'm a great come problem by replied means that maque of was sending a signal to germany that i think they'd come comp law should become the next sense ally also i think it depends on your viewpoint how you interpret the very fact that the answer to a president of france has been done by a leader of a party but the core support the comeback the derek in that school again everything he said is that what we are seeing is a french german then that makes whether friends are all focusing on the money the eurozone budget the solidarity the minimum wage sort of things which in the theory of what would you do is the left of

a state yeah where is the ply from john. mini which is about military refugees security policy and sense of force is the right of a state and it's as if france and germany are doing this there is a my call here goes empty and there is a germany there goes empty would be better to do this we learned just this old idea that a french german town dim is necessary to drive europe as if motor is that in itself a dusty old cliche yes a new. and interesting reflection of these exchange of. ideas between person berlin in centuries in your was. a certain sort of acknowledgment ok now berlin says what they wanted we hope the berlin wall will always keep the small countries on board because the next real political fight will be about two things the next year budget and the single market and what is

president mccone trying to do is to increase standards and rules for single market . as another way of french protectionism when he started on postal workers but as germany's for its status quo country because single market is great for germany me and the elephant in the room is the eurozone the future of the eurozone which was not addressed by it by the way i like the way that she taught the to hold a letter. or open it because these are her first elections as a party leader built on going to medical election anymore she is she will be tested by the sections i like the fact that it was foster swift a little bit of provocative basically saying a message to president from that if you ask something from germany to sacrifice you should sacrifice as a second seat of the european parliament to your un security council seat so essentially that two of the two of them using the media to try to make and love

this show that maybe yes yes i think that it sorry i'm going to add i've got my own on the time and i want to be sure that we come back to the question of the rise of right wing populism in europe i mentioned those polls that show a lot of support in europe for the e.u. but polls also show a likely upsurge in the upcoming e.u. parliamentary elections for right wing populists are reports starts in hungary. these posters were put up by hungary's governing party. they claim that an american investor george soros and the european commission president john klobuchar are promoting illegal migration to hungary. a lot of europeans believe that kind of propaganda recent polls indicate that populist and nationalist groups are set to make big games in upcoming european parliament elections. p europe of

nations and freedom parliamentary group includes italy's northern league austria's freedom party. in france's national rally party. the governing parties in hungary and poland are said to be close to these other partners. the right wing nationalist parties have one thing in common they are frustrated with the european union. but how much more right wing populism will europe be able to take. and let me pass that question right on to you because you're going to go has right wing nationalism reached a tipping point or will we see that in the end it's a passing phenomenon no i think it. it's increasing and it's a system that this is incremental and it's assess the systemic which is if you pass a certain letter level say the thirty percent threshold is very important yet

twenty percent you can neglect thirty percent the system cannot they click and you can see from all figures whether that's also. something i want to share not that we have basically peaking beyond the thirty percent and thirty percent has a certain the number in all systems so what it means is that these parties passionately govern they have incremental stakes into the system they do they good they they sort of hijack the institutions from the inside they change the persons in the institutions be that in the court's view that's in the media or they attend them free media and so you have incremental effects and these effects i think that will stay because there are systemic. minnich missed or bones party and hungry faces possible banishment at the moment from the e.u. parliamentary group to which it belongs could that tarnish its image at home or abroad not at home. abroad yes i think it would first of all limit the money over space of hunger in prime minister on the e.u. level and therefore i think. victor more will do its utmost to step back for

a thorough climb down from this confrontation tone as we were coming to the studio there was the news that he actually sent letters to the thirteen european peoples party members that request that vote in the debate and perhaps expulsion or suspension of if he does party. at the next political awesomely of us and fried block on twenty first of march in brussels and the apologized for if he offended somebody you will see a lot of that surrounded he doesn't or he leave or he loves he will and doesn't want to leave the largest european political party he wants to come pain you know if you're hungry have a good result still be as a member of this blog and then decide what to do next and paradoxically he supposedly also doesn't want to leave the e.u. he absolutely wants to keep hungry in the e.u. and to hungary and in fact support the e.u. they say in polls derek scully. another potential deterrent that's out there of

course is the do bacco of bragg's that we've seen chaos it seems ongoing do you think that that could discourage some right wing nationalists either again within great britain or abroad yes we had the new leader americans the cess from the party on a good come come bar she said about a week ago she said you know if anyone needed a good you know an advertisement for why the european union was necessary look at the chaos in britain you see where short sighted nationalism goes so in a way. in a bizarre way although we're still in the middle of the breaks and calles a hushed tone well if you want to retreat to your little island mentality go ahead you know but the trouble is you're dragging other countries down with you so in our land i don't think there's be any sort of. boost for populous there i mean we're we're very very dependent on the european union even more so now so i don't really see britain is now its own can its own entity but i do see across europe i see in

germany a problem because germany claims to be a european nation you know because of the war and never again war but whenever you ask german politicians they're already looking at the checkbook how much is this going to cost us so they they talk to european talk but since your crisis we've gotten through very hard nosed germany where it's all about what's going to cost us and that's what everything germany in the european was supposed to be about but because something of a paradox here we see euro skepticism strongest in many of the countries in the east and eastern europe that have benefited enormously from e.u. membership and on the other hand countries like portugal or greece where there has been europe your e.u. imposed austerity very painful have almost no right wing nationalist how do you account for that first i think it's wrong to say that the countries who have benefited because they're what you need to look at is which group of which country has benefits at the out say in germany banks industry has a lot of benefit to from the euro done in citizens you may discuss this and the

same for greece you have very wealthy greek who have benefit that their lot we didn't save with all these bailouts they could just sort of the greek citizens be safe that they get on the left very important to talk about account for the fact that they are very much you rightly popular because you have an inverse populism which is if salvini is standing there and says because of the e.u. i cannot have a basic income in italy then he increases populism against the european union but everyone else sort of eeny feel it's the northern european population because then if sally is something he wants money the germans do not want to pay so it's an even reason procope sort of grouping of populism by recent proca. we. have a building up. our china last who can convince europe populists are just either one of mine to be young people who are in need to go right now to study new york of europe and arland not just on the climate but also on europe. for the duration the . actions present flush with luggage thank you very much to all of you for being with us and thanks to you out there for training and c.s.s.

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