we think different languages we fight for different things that's fine but we all stick up for freedom freedom of speech and freedom of press. giving freedom of choice global news that matters w made for mines. the trial of cattle and separatist leaders over their failed independence has laid bare some stark divisions in spanish society not least over the justice system my guest this week here in madrid is spain's foreign minister burrell how does he answer the charge that the trials are fundamentally unfair. you as a bar of welcome to conflict. that. last year

a lady called come a follow up was the president of the catalan parliament she was arrested charged with rebellion when she was interviewed last december she was spending fifteen hours a day in her cell in solitary confinement is this really the image of spain that you want to show the rest of the world. this is a judicially decision. to hold. people under control or another to avoid them to escape from their justice like others a grandmother. in a prison convicted of nothing enjoying joys the presumption of innocence before her . everybody who is in presenting preventive jail enjoys the presumption of innocence instead of thirty percent of the people who are in jail preventing the

tension it's hard not to see her incarceration as the action of a vindictive state setting out to punish defendants they should. be enjoying this presumption of innocence. that a presumption of innocence has nothing to vote with your on record as saying that you wish some of those in pretrial detention were free. times exactly that they would have. the judge could have found another way of preventing them from escaping the action of justice you said there were other methods that could have been used you said there were other methods that could help the beauty of so this was unfair treatment. in your view no and all you'd have preferred to see them out of pretrial and the other you know another thing pump to make me say things that they haven't said. i understand

a national calling to the use of pretrial detention is justified only when there is no alternative measure which would insure the interests of justice you have said there are alternative measures so it is unfair well look you've the judge has decided to implement these measures because he thinks it has to move so i am not going to. decide in the plate of judges in spain judges in that they take their decision by their own i understand that already and if maybe mr put them on had an escape maybe they just could take another kind of measures you know that with the man and of the us has been escaping graduate of justice but you know that there are very few people who don't know that or listen to ban them explain that. but it's not your role you tell me the courts are independent but it's not your role to turn a blind eye to serious questions and doubts about the way your judicial system is

functioning isn't it because you came to power your government came to power promising to transform. space my point to you is keeping people in lockdown in solitary confinement for fifteen hours a day. so much confinement fifteen hours a day sixty three year old grandmother convicted of nothing. excuse me you say nothing do you know about the conviction on this occasion i start thinking that you don't anything about it she hasn't been convicted of anything as she she seemed charged but she has no charge convicted well let's. stop it we're going to stop this interview understand me if you continue like these are you stop it. you are not been debating me going to be wearing me.

so you. know i'm not a subject of any kind of inquiry from your side i understand that the right questions and let me talk if not you stop it absolutely ok i'm just gonna go look. you came to power to modernize and. last year the e.u. score card which measured public trust in the independence of national courts and judges put spain in twenty third place on the list of member countries below portugal hungry and romania how do you feel about that spending ranking among the twenty best. with. no. need of. the economy. was i think being classified. as

a being. but the truth is when it comes to the charges of rebellion against the catalan defendants there has been a substantial outcry both here and abroad present that last november more than one hundred legal experts in spain signed an open letter condemning the charge of rebellion in the council didn't move you whether you led the judges made their work i'm asking your opinion. in spain. how do you think that the decision of the german court which refused to extradite the former catalan leader. on the charge of rebellion how do you think that has affected the credibility of the case against him because the german court said the

amount of violence required for the charge of treason which is the closest they have to rebellion was not seen. in breach of the public peace they said does not apply because the mark was only involved in carrying out the independence. the german judge. and it's a blow to your case. which at the time. the course was the court was basically saying that your central charge against the catalan defendants doesn't hold up. i don't know how. the situation in spain but who has to judge it as pain score. suggestions here not going to get a fair trial the professor of constitutional law at civilian. royo said i would like to be wrong but the way in which the october first case has

proceeded so far inevitably points to a guilty verdict the trial will be a farce even though they will abide by all the legal procedures while it's been held the verdict has already been written so chilling accusations i don't agree with him. just that. when you learn agree with the association of judges for democracy about the appointment of some of the leading figures in this case very very much by. the whole of lope of the people who criticizes the judges i can tell you know other people who has. there may be other views but i mean there's been a damaging criticism has the. it's a third time how your man serving you this same hands in spain judiciary is in power let them do their work. the month

accused you of contributing to the increase in hate he said when you were appointed foreign minister is this the gesture they had in mind in order to send us a message of fraternal deescalation the fact that you have been you a catalan have been dead set against catalonia independence was he right was this a message of fraternal deescalation. can you tell me why mr bush is saying these things i can't i go read his mind i am asking with the asking whether you agree with it for sure or not why should i try to defend myself from that because they should when mr put them on if you are unable to say. then said. if you know how we have to light this thing in the year while you are talking about do you want to deescalate the situation have been this get it into the situation this government

has been make you know be careful to know that the this girl may be situation implementing the old kind of measures in order to make things go into normal again but we cannot give. people a good way to put it in the nation as they are asking for because it is against his biggest question that this has nothing to do with international law why not have a debate about the constitution and the constitutional. could have touched on those provisions which outlaw independence was regency could have done it they put up a bond for the spanish barlow and imprisoned. by the basque bit they haven't done it why didn't you do it do you are you not interested in reforming the constitution who is asking for it seventy percent those manuals warlords little usual reform according according to the center for sociological research so watch yourself. if you were lying.

the center for sociological research has said word seventy percent of spaniards want constitutional reform of some college or some kind of some god or a biblical blow finish what they're not finish i don't want to do that anymore. minister in november the human rights commission of the council of europe wrote to the senate and the congress of deputies pressing for serious amendments to the so-called law on citizens' safety i know that your government promised meaningful changes to this law. but you haven't delivered them have you i mean video in this.

concert and he was not complaining at all and he said that this pain is usually considered it i mean that they didn't want them performing according with human rights law. so there was no course is a little you didn't read the letter was sent to you but they had an interview with that they went with them and. i don't think there is criticism about the functioning of the spanish review but you didn't you didn't change the law did you you promised meaningful changes to you haven't i don't know exactly what you're talking about but the general terms their consideration the. concert will make about the spain system are very good what the commissioner wrote was in his letter i find it disturbing that according to the minister of interior twenty seven thousand alone more than twenty one thousand sanctions have been imposed on the grounds of lack of respect or consideration for police officers and the articles

that can easily be interpreted he said in an arbitrary manner and thus have a chilling effect on freedom of expression well you have a bias approach to this situation in spain what they can tell you is the just do my gretsch court has had much unless cases with respect to spain to many other countries the court of superior court of human rights decided that a number of basque separatists didn't get a fair trial. you confirmed that doesn't help the argument does it no doesn't have my argument. but it can't repeat the ones in the game that the statistics show that this spain has much less much less cases in front of the court of human rights than many other european

countries like france belgium germany and others but you don't answer for them you want. are you not concerned about this public safety or you wanted to change it. do you find it satisfactory that so many people were sanctioned for disrespecting the police i am not aware of. you can't refer to the statistics in general terms and the position that this painting has one respecting human right let's talk about arms sales in september last year you announced you had halted the sale of laser guided bombs to saudi arabia with concerns over the use of such weapons in the war in your mind and just days later you changed your mind and said the contract had to be on that one just contradicted more conduit was higher it seems that it hasn't been anymore sell arms. to saudi arabia but you continue to sell arms not

since this government this you know thieves they have been selling arms you said you had changed your mind and said this particular contract had to be on this particular contract had to be already was signed by the previous government and. they spend the socialist government believe that this can be a yes and we heard that if you are but these. munitions of this kind have been used against hospitals hotels the water whirls residential buildings factories and last year in a school bus attack so the question of collateral damage when they've been aimed at civilian targets doesn't really apply does what they say everybody who has a meaning more mean diligence you can understand is that the precision. created less collateral damage that would just run them a little bit if it's only civilian targets anyway that's just an academic argument

why do you have to prove that they have been used for that well if you read what human rights watch has said last year as of november last year six thousand eight hundred and seventy two. valiance had been killed and more than ten thousand wounded by saudi arabia led coalition air strikes since twenty fifteen. they have documented ninety apparently coalition air strikes which have hit homes markets hospitals schools and mosques and these are the people you decided to honor the contract with but it is not at all approve of the u.s. saying that there are schools by this god of arms. they will bomb coalition coalition air strikes but their bombs a bomb from the plane you know the only thing i've said is something that if you have a little be honest approach to the problem you will understand that a precision bomb creates less had to hold them that they're random but as

a former president of the european parliament i'm sure you noted the criticism such arms have attracted in that forum last november i mean peace heavily criticized the way member states have greenlighted most stones exports to saudi arabia despite the fact that those exports violated six out of eight criteria and undermine the european arms control that the spores vollmer that this space has been doing. doesn't fulfill completely all legal requirements amnesty international so your own export more prohibits arms transfers when there is reasonable suspicion it could be used in human rights. and we have a committee that controls the support of arms and to make sure that when we support our arms and we don't buy your lady any role. and you are confident despite

criticism from human rights groups despite what the e.u. parliament has been saying about the need to stop these arms exports to saudi arabia that you haven't violated the criteria or told your for at least two or three times but you continue asking the same question that it seems this government is in office we haven't seen the supported arms so no more no more laser guided bombs to saudi arabia these was a contract that has to be how it was signed by the previous government and since then he has been another one related to the town i am asking the same as a minister in the time we have left i'd like to look at developments concerning gibraltar. your government has made it clear that you intend to use the bricks it process to reopen the question of shared sovereignty over gibraltar despite the

fact that both britain and gibraltar have signalled that that issue is not open for debate why do you bother. to open the question of shared sovereignty who says that your prime minister did in november he said that the issue shared sovereignty would be back on the table all the time as the sun sets for sure it's on the table all the time you will be for you but it's not for them not for gibraltar not for britain for sure what. so what so what why do you think this time you can put it back on the to do you think it's you can use the leverage the leverage of negotiations to put pressure on britain and. how badly you form you why really you don't know anything of what you are talking about my god what do you want done don't know do you do not do them well pay anything i won't be what you were talking or i would have been saying very clearly that we were not going to use

the dogs of the black sea to the point of the table or the question of most of the rain thing. you are law you're just not well informed and you didn't hear your prime minister say in november that the issue of sovereignty would be back on the table. that table but not do the integrated negotiations how in your own you are incredible what about through the trade negotiations if there is to be a free trade agreement between britain and spain what then. again put pressure on gibraltar either you say the spread of things i am goodish surprised that you come from. is a bite this they deal what you are talking of. and you say they are interested in eligible you say that and you say that. the issue is on the table first of all you said the government had hadn't said anything about putting that on the table then you admit that prime minister certainly did say that can i explain he was not alone

please please have an answer to europe continues quest please can you give me the opportunity please. we have said very clearly that we have not going to the questions of rain on the table on the framework of breaks in negotiations and we have in the honeyed which doesn't mean that we forget about the question was to you for that were we to reach five agreement with the british government that what you brought up bar for the with all treaty and in the future we also agreed with good reason that any agreement with united in the little perspective you've ruled to have to be on the control of spain your government that's all nothing more than that for sure we requested mr frame but it hasn't been called on that they would look to back to negotiation you should know of outreach and not both questions on the fourth wave. on this on february the eighteenth minister one of your warships

into the water and tried to order out commercial vehicle that were tied up there. what was the point of that action because you spoke with them for the chiefs to stop they can pass but they could not stop now these were gibraltar waters british gibraltar waters which you don't recognize we. do growth. it was according to brazil to match treaty. land but not their waters we are acting accordingly within the nation and with. the ships can pass by they can not stop. one of your most experienced diplomats who headed your mission and the moral of the sea matters. has said publicly that there's no legal basis for claiming that gibraltar has no territorial waters they should not be with them and

it's if you have a disagreeing that you do have this disagreement over gibraltar waters why not settle it through the disputes procedure of the law on the sea conflicts when we talk so as far back as nine hundred sixty nine i had to pay night to put a question it would be much better led the interviewer to answer the. priest now also to continue cutting my answer is a true sense of the question i have to all your for this pain is government these ships can pass by but they cannot the stopping to water that we can see that they don't belong to this jew grovers for very bad one will settle that issue in my dialogue well not. that. why not certain that. i understand believe it's you know the answer my question is a question that as many as your one it's my answer what are you afraid of the

dialogue taking it to international arbitration to the international court of justice they could decide this matter and i want to be just as competent for this question and the u.n. law of the sea they are competent but you won't take it to them either you want to put me in the bank with guilty people or i'm just asking why not you are very funny . if you're really funny. you just reached a tax agreement with britain over gibraltar. so dialogue can get some results can't . unload with your broker who said underwritten i said with britain written about europe yes a greater getaway car women got something wrong with it you were concerned about tax fraud in gibraltar start right why not do more to prevent things like fraud and bribery and money laundering anyway cancan spain do more and we want.

more. transparency international says that key european countries are failing to enforce the oh you see these anti bribery convention which is one of the main instruments for fighting global corruption which is the question. and spain is one of them we did it and spain is one of them so currently showing the transparency international little or no in force why is that we do as much as we can. but you could do more sure you. could do better. minister good to have you on conflicts on thank you thank you for your but next time. if you could the questions and names values way. i'm not sure just to give you the questions you want me.

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a lot going on in. germany tested. w. . closely. listening carefully. to suit the needs to get a good. engine plane discover. the claim. to. subscribe to documentary on to. what's the connection between bread but home and the european union so he knows. the job you correspondent at the baker john stretch this second line with the rules

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this is. a wrenching sacrifice to see plan british prime minister to resign says she is willing to resign tonight's voting on a number of new options for leaving the european union teresa mayes as she's preparing to step down if it means getting her great city old across the finish lot . to london for the latest also coming up the plastic plagued and europe's effort to fight its european parliament vote.