experience and explore the world cultural heritage site. w world heritage three sixty. sometimes books more exciting than real life. what if there's no escape. in st. the trial of cattle and separatist leaders over their failed independence has laid bare some stock divisions in spanish society not least over the justice system my guest this week here in madrid is sprains foreign minister burrell how does he answer the charge that the trials are fundamentally unfair.

welcome to conflict so that. last year a lady called coming up was the president of the catalan parliament she was arrested charged with rebellion when she was interviewed last december she was spending fifteen hours a day in her cell in solitary confinement is this really the image of spain that you want to show the rest of the world. this is a judiciary decision. to hold. people under control or another to avoid them to escape from the justice like others a grandmother in her mid sixty's in a prison convicted of nothing. enjoying joys the presumption of innocence before

her. everybody who was imprisoned prevented jail enjoys the presumption of innocence intruder thirty percent of the people who are in jail on preventive detention it's hard not to see her incarceration as the action of a vindictive state setting out to punish defendants they should. be enjoying this presumption of innocence. at a presumption of innocence has nothing to work with it your on record as saying that you wish some of those in pretrial detention were three. times exactly that they would have. the judge could have found another way of preventing them from escaping the action of justice so there were other methods that could have been used you said there were other methods that could have been used here so this was unfair treatment. in your view no. you'd have preferred to see them

out of pretrial we are you know another thing the made me say thing that they haven't said. understand to national cording to the use of pretrial detention is justified only when there is no alternative measure which would ensure the interests of justice you have said there are alternative measures so it is unfair well look you have the judge has decided to these measures because he thinks it has to move so i am not going to. this side and a plate of judges in spain jut in that. home i understand that already and if maybe mr put him on had an escape maybe they should could take another kind of measures do you know that with them on and on the us has been escaping the act with justice but you know that there are very few people who don't know that or listen to them them explain it but it's not your role

you tell me the courts are independent but it's not a role to turn a blind eye to serious questions and doubts about the way your judicial system is functioning isn't it because you came to power your government came to power promising to transform. space my point to you is keeping people in. lockdown in solitary confinement for fifteen hours a day. so much confinement fifteen hours a day sixty three year old grandmother convicted of nothing. scuse me. of nothing do you know about the conviction on this case i start thinking that you don't anything about it she hasn't been convicted of anything as she's been charged but she has no charge convicted well let's. stop it we're going to

stop this interview. and then. if you continue like this i just copy it and you are not been debating me going to be weighing me. so you were in me trying to police no i'm i'm not a subject of any kind of inquiry from your side i understand that the right questions and doc if not you stop it absolutely i just don't. look. you came to power to modernize and. last year the e.u. scorecard which measured public trust in the independence of national courts and judges put spain in twenty third place on the list of member countries below portugal hungary and romania how do you feel about that. ranking among the twenty best democracies and. according with. your

needs of. the economist. i think in this being classified. as a being. but the truth is when it comes to the charges of rebellion against the defendants there has been a substantial outcry both here and abroad present that last november more than one hundred legal experts in spain signed an open letter condemning the charge of rebellion in the council didn't move you why don't you lead the judges made their work i'm asking your opinion. in spain. how do you think that the decision of the german court which refused to extradite the former

catalan leader. on the charge of rebellion how how do you think that has affected the credibility of the case against him because the german court said the amount of violence required for the charge of high treason which is the closest they have to rebellion was not seen. in breach of the public peace they said does not apply because the mark was only involved in carrying out the independence. of the german judge. and it's a blow to your case. and actually what you define. the course was the court was basically saying that your central charge against the catalan defendants doesn't hold up. i don't know how. the situation in spain but who has to judge it is pain score. any suggestions here not going to get

a fair trial the professor of constitutional law at civilian of. paris royal said i would like to be wrong but the way in which the october first case has proceeded so far inevitably points to a guilty verdict the trial will be a farce even though they will abide by all the legal procedures while it's being held at the verdict has already been written it's a chilling accusations. just that. just that when you learn agree with the association of judges for democracy about the appointment of some of the leading figures in this case very very much by. both of the people who criticises the judges i can barely hear other people who has another. there may be other views but i mean there's been a damaging criticism has the moved into the third time how your man serving you this same hands in spain judiciary is in power let them do their

work. the month accused you of contributing to the increase in hate he said when you were appointed foreign minister is this the gesture they have in mind in order to send us a message of fraternal deescalation the fact that you have been you a catalan have been dead set against catalonia independence was he right was this a message of fraternal deescalation. can you tell me why mr bush is saying these things i can't i don't read his mind i am asking with the asking whether you agree with it for sure not why should i try to defend myself from their consideration when mr put them on if you are on able to say which in beijing is their. if you know how we have to light this thing in the year while you are talking about do you

want to deescalate the situation have been discussed hating the situation this government has been making to be careful to know that the discover may be situation implementing and the old kind of measures in order to make things go into normal again but we cannot give to the end that the people will get away due to the communication as they are asking for because it is again. this has nothing to do with international law why not have a debate about the constitution and constitutional rights. that could have touched on those provisions which outlaw independence first polish regions could have done it they put a cap on for the spanish barlow and present a proposal to reform the constitution but the basque bit they haven't done it why didn't you do it do you are you not interested in reforming the constitution who is

asking for the. seventy percent those manuals one long haul reform according according to the center for sociological research so much here so it. could be merely lying. the center for sociological research has a word seventy percent of spaniards want constitutional reform of some college are somewhere i can have some guy greg a public record or i finish was one of the nation i don't want to do that anymore. mr in november the human rights commissioner of the council of europe wrote to the senate and the congress of deputies pressing for serious amendments to the so-called law on citizens' safety i know that your government promised meaningful

changes to this law. but you haven't delivered them via i.v. in visiting this. consul and he was in not complaining at all and he said that this pain is usually first considered it i mean that but then one performing a calling with human rights law. so there was no criticism at all you didn't read the letter that was sent there you had an interview with that they went with them and. i don't think there is criticism about the functioning of the spanish but you didn't you didn't change the law or do you promised meaningful changes to it and you haven't i don't know exactly what you were talking about the general terms of consideration the. concert will make about this pain system are very good what the commissioner wrote was in his letter i find it disturbing that according to the

minister of interior twenty seven thousand alone more than twenty one thousand sanctions have been imposed on the grounds of lack of respect or consideration for police officers and the articles that can easily be interpreted he said in an arbitrary manner and thus have a chilling effect on freedom of expression well you have a bias approach to this or to a shooting in spain what they can tell you is the just my gretsch court has had much less cases with respect to spain to many other countries. the court of. court of human rights decided that a number of basque separatists didn't get a fair trial. you confirmed that doesn't hope to argue does it no doesn't have my argument. but it can't repeat the ones in the game that the statistics show that this spain has much less much

less cases in front of the court of human rights than many other european countries like france belgium germany and others but you don't want. are you not concerned about this public safety or you wanted to change it. do you find inside this factory that so many people were sanctioned for disrespecting the police i am not aware of what do you know about they can refer to this to this teacher in general terms and the position that the spain has a. right let's talk about arms sales in september last year you announced you had halted the sale of laser guided bombs to saudi arabia concerns over the use of such weapons in the war in yemen just days later you changed your mind and said the contract had to be on that was just contradicted more contract was higher it

but since then it hasn't been any more sell arms. to solve the area but you continue to sell arms not since this government this you know thieves they have been selling more arms you said you had changed your mind and said this particular contract had to be on this particular contract had to be already was signed by the previous government and. then spend the socialist government believed that these had to be a yes and we heard that if you are but these. munitions of this kind have been used against hospitals hotels the water whirls residential buildings factories and last year in a school bus attack so the question of collateral damage when they've been aimed at civilian targets doesn't really apply does what they say everybody who has a meaning more mean diligence if you can understand is that that precision. created less can happen all damages that would just randomly tip it if it's aimed at

civilian targets anyway that's just the lack of. why why until you have your proof that they have been used for that well but if you read what human rights watch has said last year as of november last year six thousand eight hundred seventy two. civilians had been killed and more than ten thousand wounded by saudi arabia led coalition air strikes since twenty fifteen. they have documented about ninety apparently coalition air strikes which have hit homes markets hospitals schools and mosques and these are the people you decided to honor the contract with in the days not at all approve of about us saying that they will schools by discovery of arms. they will bomb coalition coalition air strikes but the bombs above the train the plane you know the only thing i've said is something that

if you have a little being honest approach to the problem you will understand that a precision bomb creates less had to hold them that they're random but as a former president of the european parliament i'm sure you noted the criticism such as attracted in that forum last november i mean peas heavily criticize the way member states have greenlighted most films exports to saudi arabia despite the fact that those exports violated six out of eight criteria and thus undermine the entire european arms control but the spores vollmer that the space has been doing doesn't fulfill completely all legal requirements amnesty international so do your own export more prohibits arms transfers when there is reasonable suspicion they could be used in human rights violations and we have

a committee that control of the support of arms and to make sure that when we support our arms and we don't buy your made any verbal. and you are confident despite criticism from human rights groups despite what the e.u. parliament has been saying about the need to stop these arms exports to saudi arabia that you haven't violated the criteria he told you for at least two or three times but you continue asking the same question that it seems does the government is saying nothing that we haven't seen the support that arms so no more no more laser guided bombs to saudi arabia at least was a contract that had to be her it was signed by the previews government and since then he has been another one religion to the time i am asking the same question minister and the time we have left i'd like to look at developments concerning gibraltar. your government has made it clear that you intend to use the bricks it

process to reopen the question of shared sovereignty over gibraltar despite the fact that both britain and gibraltar have signalled that that issue is not open for debate why do you bother bother worldwide to open the question of shared sovereignty who says that your prime minister did in november he said that the issue shared sovereignty would be back on the table of the prime minister sunsets for sure it's on the table all the time it will be for you but it's not for them not for gibraltar not for britain for sure what. so what so what why do you think this time you can put it back on the to do you think it's you can use the leverage the leverage of bracks at negotiations to put pressure on. price how badly you form you why really you don't know anything of what you are talking about my god what do

you want done don't know do you do not and you don't help anything you are talking we have been saying very clearly that we were not going to use the part of the bracks a point on the table the question most of the rain thing how do you allow your or i just not as well informed and you didn't hear your prime minister say in november that the issue of sovereignty would be back on the table. that they were but not doing directive negotiations how ignorant you are incredible what about through the trade negotiations if there is to be a free trade agreement between britain and spain what then will the again put pressure on gibraltar either you say the scale things i am going to surprise happen to come from. i have this invite this to you dear what you are talking about. you say that in astrology will you say that and you say that the

issue is on the table first of all you said the government had hadn't said anything about putting that on the table then you admit the prime minister certainly did say that can i explain if you follow please please have an answer to your continues question please can you give me the opportunity please please we have said very clearly that we have not going to the question of rain on the table on the framework of breaks in negotiations and we haven't done it which doesn't mean that we forget about the question was for that will we reach five agreement with the british government that what you brought with bar or the withdrawal gritty and in the future we also agreed with it would be a good mission that any agreement with united in the little perspective she ruled who have to be on the control of the spaniel government that's all nothing more than that for sure we requested mr frame but it hasn't been called on that they

will do just that to negotiation you should know our vows and not both questions on the fourth wave. and this on february eighteenth minister one of your warships. water and tried to order out commercial vehicle versus the. tied up there. what was the point of that action because you spoke with them for the chips to stop they can pass that we can not stop now these were gibraltar waters british gibraltar waters which you don't recognize we do not require nice job growth. because according with which treaty. we lead. waters we are acting accordingly within to the nation with. the ships can pass by not stop. one of your most experienced diplomats who headed your mission of the sea

matters jose antonio de. has said publicly that there is no legal basis for claiming that gibraltar has no territorial waters it is not a point of view with them and it's if you have a disagreement that you do have this disagreement over gibraltar waters why not settle it through the disputes procedure of the law on the sea conflicts when we talk so as far back as nine hundred sixty nine that very night that to put a question it would be much better led the interviewer to answer there. priest most are continually cutting my answer is the true sense of the question i have to all your for this pain is not over. the ships can pass by but they can not to stop in the water that we can see that they don't belong to this gibraltar's for it but one will settle that issue my dialoguing bay that will not settle nationally. that. why

not settle it. i understand you know dancing my question in this book and has the question that many as you've won keeps my hands what are you afraid of the dialogue taking it to international arbitration to the international court of justice they could decide this matter of just not competent for this kind of question and the un law of the sea they are competent but you won't take it to them either you want to put me in the bank of guilty people or i'm just asking why not you are very funny you're really funny. you've just reached a tax agreement with britain over gibraltar so dialogue can get some results can't it. was your broker who said i was written i said with britain written about europe yes you have to wake up women got something wrong with it you were concerned about tax fraud in gibraltar start right why not do more to prevent things like

fraud and bribery and money laundering anyway can spain do more and we want. more. transparency international says that key european countries are failing to enforce the oh you see these anti bribery convention which is one of the main instruments for fighting global corruption which is the question. and spain is one of the region where you can screen is one of them so currently showing the transparency international little or no inforced much why is that we do as much as we can. what you could do more sure you. could do better good interview. mr good to have you on conflict so thank you thank you for your but next time i would appreciate if you could the questions and no less value as a way. i'm not here just to give you the questions you want. thank

you.

carol off my schedule is that. you know last night. the selling sample of one hundred russian believe has president. mission to abolish the separation of church

and. russia. for the two books. which. are the result of the markets. the momentum of the working world. your business magazine made in germany in ninety minutes on t w. play. to the new zero max you tube channel. a good line of stewards. with the exclusive. must see concerning our culture to ensure a. place to be curious minds. do it yourself networkers it.

so subscribers don't miss out. i'm not laughing at them well i guess sometimes i am but i said nothing when. i think the printer jamma culture of looking at the stereotype of class but if you think the future of the country that i'm. going to be taking this drama day out. it's all about ok play by my show join me for me again and sunday w. . post. sarno just couldn't get the song out of his head. the colleges began searching for the source of these captivating sounds. and that deep in the rain forest in central africa and let the locals able to let them. the

anyone with. money live so. they did by their culture that he stayed in the local if only a promise to his son mates are known leave the jungle and return to the concrete and glass jungle of work. the result rivers cultural. prize winning documentary songs from the forest start first p.w. . british lawmakers have voted against all eight possible alternatives to prime minister teresa mayes breck's a dale motions on a second breakfast referendum and committing britain to staying in a customs union attracted the highest number of votes but both were narrowly defeated it comes as may said she will step down if

a bracks adele is approved by parliament. health officials in mozambique have confirmed five cases of cholera amid warnings of a possible and put down.