the kind of freedom that me. how did it become a clique wait till islamist terror. until now. has. an exclusive report from a destroyed city. philippines it's a virus starts april eleventh d w. the trial of cattle and separatist leaders over their failed independence has laid bare some stock divisions in spanish society not least over the justice system my guest this week here in madrid is spain's foreign minister burrell how does he answer the charge that the trials are fundamentally unfair.

welcome to conflicts. last year a lady called come a fall was the president of the catalan parliament she was arrested charged with a rebellion when she was interviewed last december she was spending fifteen hours a day in her cell in solitary confinement is this really the image of spain that you want to show the rest of the world. judiciary decision. to hold. people under control or another to avoid them to escape from their justice like a grandmother. in a prison convicted of nothing by the joy joyce the presumption of innocence before her. everybody who is imprisoned did preventive jail enjoys the presumption of

innocence instead of thirty percent of the people who are in jail preventing the tension it's hard not to see her incarceration as the action of a vindictive state setting out to punish defendants they should. be enjoying this presumption of innocence and how to present. nothing to vote with your on record as saying that you wish some of those in pretrial detention were free. exactly that they would have. the judge could have found another way of preventing them from escaping the action of justice you said there were other methods that could have been used you said there were other methods that could help here so this was unfair treatment. in your view though. you'd have preferred to see them out of pretrial we know another thing to make me say things that they

haven't said. i understand a national calling to the use of pretrial detention is justified only when there is no alternative measure which would insure the interests of justice you have said there are alternative measures so it is unfair well look you have the judge has decided to kill a man these measures because he thinks it has to move so i am not going to. this side and a plate of judges in spain judges in that month and then they take their decision home i understand that already and if maybe mr put him on had an escape maybe they could take another kind of measures do you know that the man and of the us has been escaping graduate of justice but you know that there are very few people who don't know that or listen to them them explain that. it's not your role you tell me the courts are independent but it's not your role to turn

a blind eye to serious questions and doubts about the way your judicial system is functioning isn't it because you came to power your government came to power promising to transform. space my point to you is keeping people in lockdown in solitary confinement for fifteen hours a day. you so much are confined with fifteen hours a day sixty three year old grandmother convicted of nothing. excuse me why do you say convicted of nothing do you know about the conviction. i start thinking that you don't anything about it she hasn't been convicted of anything and she she's in charged but she has no charge convicted well let's. stop it we're going to stop this interview and this. if you continue like these are you

stop it. you are not the thing me going to be weighing me. so you. know i'm not a subject of any kind of inquiry from your side i understand that the right questions and let me talk if not i'll stop it absolutely ok let's start with look. you came to power to modernize and. last year the e.u. scorecard which measured public trust in the independence of national courts and judges put spain in twenty third place on the list of member countries below portugal hungry and romania how do you feel about that spending. among the twenty best democracies and. with. no knowledge. of. the economy.

i think is being classified. as a being. but the truth is when it comes to the charges of rebellion against the catalan defendants there has been a substantial outcry both here and abroad present that last november more than one hundred legal experts in spain signed an open letter condemning the charge of rebellion in the council didn't move you why don't you lead the judges made their work i'm asking your opinion. in spain. how do you think that the decision of the german court which refused to extradite the former catalan leader. on the charge of rebellion how do you think that has affected the

credibility of the case against him because the german court said the amount of violence required for the charge of high treason which is the closest they have to rebellion was not seen. in breach of the public peace they said does not apply because the mark was only involved in carrying out the independence of. the german judge. and it's a blow to your case. which at the time. of the journey the course was the court was basically saying that your central charge against the catalan defendants doesn't hold up. their job and i don't know how. the situation is spain but who has to judge if there's pain or. any suggestions here that they're not going to get a fair trial the professor of constitutional law at civilian of. roy

said i would like to be wrong but the way in which the october first case has proceeded so far inevitably points to a guilty verdict the trial will be a farce even though they will abide by all the legal procedures while it's been held at the verdict has already been written so chilling the accusations. are just that. just that when you learn agree with the association of judges for democracy about the appointment of some of the leading figures in this case very very much by. look for the people who criticises the judges i compare him to other people who has. there may be other views but there's been a damaging criticism. it's a third time i am answering you this same hands in spain judiciary is independent power let them do their work. the month

accused you of contributing to the increase in hate you said when you were appointed foreign minister this gesture they had in mind in order to send us the message of fraternal deescalation the fact that you have been you a catalan have been dead set against catalonia independence was he right was this a message of fraternal deescalation. can you tell me why mr bush is saying these things how can i go and read his mind i am asking with the asking whether you agree with it and hope not why should i try to defend myself from their consideration when mr put them on if you are unable to say which in beijing is there said. if you know how they have their light this thing of the year while you are talking about do you want to deescalate the situation

a bit of this got it into the situation there's a government has been a could be careful to know that the discovery of this situation implementing and the old kind of measures in order to make things go into normal again but we cannot give. people good way to put it in the nation as they are asking for because it is against this business crusty to show that this has nothing to do with international law why not have a debate about the constitution and constitutional rights. that could have touched on those provisions which outlaw independence first polish regency could have done it they put up a bond for the spanish barlow and imprisoned. by the basque bit they haven't done it why didn't you do it do you are you not interested in reforming the constitution who is asking for it seventy percent those manuals warlords little usual reform according according to the center for sociological

research so much or so it. was relying. the center for sociological research has said word seventy percent of spaniards want constitutional reform of some colleagues are some kind of some god as budget director of public record why finish well then i'll finish i don't want to do that anymore. minister in november the human rights commission of the council of europe wrote to the senate and the congress of deputies pressing for serious amendments to the so-called law on citizens safety i know that your government promised meaningful changes to this law. but you haven't delivered them have you i mean video in this.

concert and he was in not complaining at all and he said that the spanish officially first consider returning then was performing a calling with human rights law. so there was no criticism at all you didn't read the letter was sent there you had an interview with that they went with them and. i don't think there is criticism about the functioning of the spanish or the senate but you didn't you didn't change the law or do you promised meaningful changes to it and you haven't i don't know exactly what you were talking about the general terms there consideration that you might read to consider major about this pain system are very good what the commissioner wrote was in his letter i find it disturbing that according to the minister of interior twenty seven thousand alone more than twenty one thousand sanctions have been imposed on the grounds of lack of

respect or consideration for police officers and the articles that can easily be interpreted he said in an arbitrary manner and thus have a chilling effect on freedom of expression well you have a bias approach to this you're to a shooting in spain what they can tell you is the just my gretsch court has had much less cases with respect to spain to many other countries the court of human court of human rights decided that a number of basque separatists didn't get a fair trial. you confirmed that doesn't hope to argue does it no doesn't have my argument. but it can't repeat the ones that the statistics show that the spain has much less much much

less cases in front of the court of human rights and then many other european countries like france belgium germany and others but you don't want. are you not concerned about this public safety or you want to change it. do you find it satisfactory that so many people were sanctioned for disrespecting the police i am not aware of what. you can refer to the statistics or in general terms and the position that the spain has on human right let's talk about arms sales in september last year you announced you had halted the sale of laser guided bombs to saudi arabia with concerns over the use of such weapons in the war in here and just days later you changed your mind and said the contract had to be on one of these contracts and more contract was higher it but since then it hasn't been anymore sell arms. to saudi arabia but you continue to sell arms not

since this government this you know thieves they have been selling more arms you said you had changed your mind and said this particular contract had to be on this particular conflict already was signed by the previous government and. their. socialist government believed that these trivia yet and we heard that if you are but these munitions of this kind have been used against hospitals hotels the water whirls residential buildings factories and last year in a school bus attack so the question of collateral damage when they've been aimed at civilian targets doesn't really apply does what they say everybody who has a meaning more mean diligence that you can understand is that the precision. created less collateral damage is that the bomb would just randomly compute if it's

any civilian targets anyway that's just the academic argument why do you have to prove that they have been used for that well if you read what human rights watch has said last year as of november last year six thousand eight hundred and seventy two. civilians had been killed and more than ten thousand wounded by saudi arabia led coalition air strikes since twenty fifteen. they have documented about ninety apparently coalition air strikes which have hit homes markets hospitals schools and mosques and these are the people you decided to honor the contract with you but it is not at all approve of what you were saying that there were scores by discussing the valves. where there were bomb coalition coalition air strikes but the bottom somebody trying to blame you are the only thing you have said at least something that you have a little bead on mr broder to the problem and you will and the stain that

a precision box creates less had to hold them that they're random of as a former president of the european parliament i'm sure you noted the criticism such arms of attracted in that forum last november i mean a piece heavily criticized the way member states have greenlighted most films exports to saudi arabia despite the fact that those exports violated six out of eight criteria and that's on the mind the european arms control but the spores vollmer that this paints has been doing. doesn't fulfill completely whole legal requirements amnesty international so do your own forms export more prohibits arms transfers when there is reasonable suspicion they could be used in human rights violations and we have a committee that control of this port of arms and to make sure that when we support

our arms and we don't buy your made any verbal. when you are confident despite criticism from human rights groups despite what the e.u. parliament has been saying about the need to stop these arms exports to saudi arabia that you haven't violated the criteria they told you for at least two or three times but you continue asking the same question that it seems this government is doing nothing they haven't continued was supported arms so no more no more laser guided bombs to saudi arabia at least was a contract that has to be how it was signed by the previous government and since then he has been another one related to the time i am asked the same question minister and the time we have left i'd like to look at developments concerning gibraltar. your government has made it clear that you intend to use the bricks it process to reopen the question of shared sovereignty over gibraltar despite the

fact that both britain and gibraltar have signalled that that issue is not open for debate why do you bother. to open the question of shared sovereignty who says that your prime minister did in november he said that the issue should sovereignty would be back on the table of the prime minister centers for sure it's on the table all the time it will be for you but it's not for them not for gibraltar not for britain for sure what. so what so what why do you think this time you can put it back on the two do you think it's you can use the leverage the leverage of negotiations to put pressure on britain and. how badly you form you while really you don't know anything of what you are talking about my god what do you want done don't know did you do not do anything you were talking or we had been

saying very clearly that we were not going to use the dogs of the black sea to the point of the table the question most of the rain thingy. you are law you're just not working for you didn't hear your prime minister say in november that the issue of sovereignty would be back on the. table but not do the integrated negotiations how you're a new wow incredible what about through the trade negotiations if there is to be a free trade agreement between britain and spain. then. again put pressure on gibraltar either you say the scale seems i am going to surprise. you come from. this or bite this the deal what you are talking of. you say they are interested in eligible you say that and you say that. she was on the table first of all you said the government had hadn't said anything about putting that on the table then you know the prime minister certainly did say

that can i explain please please have an answer to your continues question please can you give me the opportunity please. we have said very clearly that we have not going to put the question of rain on the table on the framework or to brag to negotiations and we haven't done it which doesn't mean that we forget about the question are so willing to for that will we to reach five agreement with the british government of what you brought up with treaty and in the future we also agreed with you to be your commission that any of you united in the little perspectives you've ruled to have to be on the control of spain the government that's all nothing more than that for sure we requested most of arabia but it hasn't been all come did they will go back to negotiation you should know of

outreach and not both questions on the fourth wave. on this on february eighteenth minister one of your warships into the water and tried to order out commercial vehicles that were tied up there. what was the point of that action because it is forbidden for the cheats to stop they can pass that they can not stop now these were gibraltar waters british gibralter waters which you don't recognize we do not require nice job growth. because according to refute rich trading. we lead the man on the waters we are acting accordingly with international and with. the ships come passed by they can not stop. one of your most experienced diplomats who headed your mission and law of the sea matters and. has said publicly that there's no legal basis for claiming that

gibraltar has no territorial waters they said about the point of view of this plane of them and. if you have a disagreement and you do have this disagreement over gibraltar waters why not settle it through the disputes procedure of the law on the sea conflicts one of the . talks as far back as nine hundred sixty nine that friday night that you put the question it will be much better of your lead the interviewer to answer the. crease continue for cutting my answer is a true sense of the question i thought all your for this pain is not over. the ships can pass by but they cannot the stopping to water that we can see that they don't belong to this job rovers for one will settle that issue my dialogue will not settle hash. that. why not certain that. i understand believe

you don't answer my question as the question that as many as you've won it's my hands what are you afraid of the dialogue taking it to international arbitration to the international court of justice they could decide this international court of justice is not competent for this kind of question and the u.n. law of the sea they are competent but you won't take it to them either you want to put me in the bank of guilty people or i'm just asking why not. you're really funny. you've just reached a tax agreement with britain over gibraltar. so dialogue can get some results planted. unload with your broker who i said i would reckon i said with written about general greater getaway to women got something wrong with it you were concerned about tax fraud in gibraltar such right why not do more to prevent things

like fraud and bribery and money laundering any way around can spain do more and we want. to do more. transparency international says that key european countries are failing to enforce the oh you see these and see bribery conventional which is one of the main instruments for fighting global corruption which is the question. and spain is one of the region where you can spin is one of them so currently showing cording to transparency international little or no in forstmann why is that we do as much as we can. but you could do more sure. could do better given the. minister good to have your own company. thank you thank you to your butt next time table deputy if you could the questions and the lowest value as a way. i militaire just to give you the questions you want me. laundry

got international talk show for journalists to discuss the topic of the week. a lot. more droplets expression. are topping the tragedy of this. country go

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of the good news is our own choices in energy conservation. recycling. in transport rage on the line find out what you can do today at read all the lines out all. malta's armed forces say they have taken control of a tanker that was hijacked by migrants who had been rescued at sea five people were handcuffed and escorted from the vessel the incident took place only a day after the e.u. suspended modest time patrols in the mediterranean.