turned into tragedy. that's not the reason for this is not the kind of freedom to me. how did you become a gateway to islamize terror. they say sorry but i don't want sitting here as a result. an exclusive report from a destroyed city. philippines in the sense of ah yes starts april eleventh on d w. meaning. a lot of very warm welcome indeed to quadriga coming to you from the plane and the focus is all the nato the north atlantic treaty organization which this week is marking its seventieth anniversary and seven decades of peace and prosperity however the celebrations in washington

a clouded by grave concerns about the future of the military gets us president donald trump and nato secretary general back say the alliance will only stay strong if as president trump has demanded member countries step up defense spending a message above all directed of course at germany meanwhile with nato members like turkey and hungry but also president trump himself openly flirting with letting their points in question here on quadriga is nato at seventy who is the enemy and to discuss that question i'm joined by three astute observers beginning with i'm curious kluges editor in chief for hundreds black today cues that militarily nato is a strong us have a politically it's in crisis that's trump's fault but also says andreas. found also with his cloudy in my year all senior associates of the german.

institute for international and security affairs he says how germany responds to questions like the two percent spending pledge exports to terrorism nuclear weapons will be crucial for europe's security and defense under very well. a policy fellow at the european council on foreign relations believes that germany is risky its international credibility. does not seem to realize well. let me begin with you nato of course styles itself as the most successful military alliance in history is it right to do so i think it is right because nato is indeed the most successful military alliance in nato for seventy years has guaranteed peace within europe peace in the transatlantic relationship and in fact really is a big very important part of the transatlantic relationship and it seems to me that sometimes when we talk about the military aspect we seem to forget that this is also just the corp. the transatlantic relationship which as we all know at the

moment you know has its major problems and various a seven decade success story maybe but the celebrations to mark the anniversary in washington have been described variously as restrained low key or even ugly what's the problem the problem is that there's a separation between the american public the american elite as represented in congress and the american president and if you notice the american public there's a bunch of new polls out is still for nato and has barely budged in europe but europe is also still for nato but has gone down a little republicans of course are much more skeptical which republicans though and that's where that is the second constituency to just mention is congress they invited back the secretary general of nato to address a joint session and that's a great way of sending a signal i believe that's the way americans and a signal to the white. house they did the same when they in the congress did the

same when they invited benjamin netanyahu to address a joint session during the obama years that was a way of saying to obama hey pay attention you're going to treat this guy better because we want you to treat him well congresses before nato and behind nato and the republicans as well i think and it's just really trump and his character characters around him that have sowed so much down ok cloudy of the u.k. guardian newspaper carried a piece of the secrets of nato's long life i'm quoting here is that it is not just a military alliance a point we heard earlier do you go along with that yes i think that the particular strength of nato of twenty nine and soon thirty member states if all those countries agree if they stick together if they really show solidarity that's a really strong signal so that means that the political cohesion the political credibility actually makes the military slings if you talk one country or talk or

you have the whole nato that's going to respond and that's an enormous sign of strains that we're sending that also means if the internal problems. the military weakness and the political weakness is getting bigger and that's a problem which we have in the moment we have on the one hand problems inside europe with germany was turkey was a ok so there are struggles potent and then in addition we have the transatlantic problems so one of the big kind of ways of a half how we keep the inner cohesion how they keep us on a devotee bit because only if it's united they say lions it's going to be strong it's going to be credible in terms of defense and deterrence and that's a major challenge at the moment ok some very interesting opening statements there lots to talk about before we do that talking let's have a look at what the nato military alliance is all about and we're going to begin at the beginning with the signing in one thousand nine hundred forty nine of the north atlantic treaty often called the washington treaty. shortly after the second world

war ended twelve countries founded the north atlantic treaty organization among them britain france belgium the united states and canada. the western allies saw a need to contain the soviet union and mount a swift defense against a potential soviet attack the principle was that an attack on any nato member would be seen as an attack against all. the fall of the berlin wall and the soviet union's breakup brought a fundamental shift in the geopolitical situation. nato excepted eastern european and baltic countries as members. the threat from asymmetrical conflicts and terrorism worldwide forced the alliance to revise its strategies. u.s. president trump has injected uncertainty into the nato alliance how does the future for nato. talk about the future of who at this point in time who

a war is the essence of. as if it is always the case the answer is more complicated. no i wouldn't say that the main enemy is russia i don't think that that's the situation at the moment that being said you know in terms of actual military threats yes i do think that europe is still somewhat militarily by russia and that's why it is important also important to have nato that nato really goes beyond that and that's what i meant with my opening statement about you know political cohesion nato us about the alliance the political alliances between the transatlantic countries so it's not i don't think it's helpful to frame with this idea of you know who is the main threat. we must not be naive about the russian. i and i and i agree with that and i think you know within within europe there's a lot of the bad about about freshness and tension. no one really knows and there

is a lot of this agreement among european allies on that and yes we absolutely shouldn't be naive but i don't i don't want to make the argument that we need to nato because of russia time has moved on we're no longer in a cold war and nato has been doing many things other than you know just the fend against russia there are many other threats out there it's a scary world i made my list claudia china cyber threats terrorism hybrid warfare and migration i don't know what you have to add so that's how continued they continue to defend successfully nine hundred and thirty million people from twenty nine different countries against all verbs for its. my first my first reaction white surprised too but i think the precondition to actually think about successful defense is sticking together as a political union because only if you have all countries agreeing that you need to do something they do remains relevant and then you have to think about what's the short term problem and what's the long term problem so in the short term or middle

term you obviously have russia and russia just why elated the i know the one which abolished overbid intermediate nuclear weapons system so there's a problem they have a military problem in the same time you have civilization issues on the southern flank of nato so failing states of corruption all this what you have on the in the kind of southern area of europe and that's and then you have to look beyond i think one of the issues about the europeans need to think and they do need to think is china the americans agree that the next life would be for the covered like what actually is great power competition russia and mainly china so the question for us europeans is do we agree what does it mean do we have an active role to play do we have a kind of more passive role to play so i think we need to differentiate what to do now and tomorrow what we have to do in the future and we really important question what can they to do on its own military things and for what it needs partners there

are many things like the i would say of the i think you mentioned or or what does cyber war that's when they go has only a little role to play with the european union or states have much more to offer so i think there are many questions we need to answer first. those questions well you've put up about twenty of them in the last five seconds but i mean the i would say i completely agree that it's not the of russia is not the only threat and that nato we've had this for twenty thirty years out of area or out of business this debate of where should you know how far should nato go but i think russia is the most immediate threat and in fact the more immediate it is as a threat the more easily nato will the twenty nine soon thirty will be able to maintain that political cohesion and just remain reminded of that famous definition of nato from the very first secretary general the word is made who said they just purposes to keep the americans in the russians out and the germans down and it's interesting what has changed and what hasn't we're worried a little bit because of trump and some others in america about america's staying in

we're still hasn't changes we're still want to keep the russians out and what's completely changed is the germans we don't want nobody wants to keep them down except they themselves and that's part of the problem so if you think of lore it is misquote i mean we would do well to focus on the immediate threat and by the way cyber warfare and russia are almost the same threat so we have that i mean there's also from others so that's the same threats hybrid warfare is again russia i mean they wouldn't go in with tanks into the baltics they would send green men and take down a few computers and spread fake news go out again after they would make nato look foolish so that nato starts bickering with each other that's the problem so i think it is russia. as before and not all the members are playing you know playing their fair share of the moment can i just briefly because we worry

a little bit about the united states i think we worry quite a lot about the united states leaving and withdrawing from this isn't just a trump issue i mean we've all seen these reports in the new york times elsewhere well. donald trump said that he's considering withdrawing from nato and it is true that congress doesn't want that nevertheless for the united states the strategic outlook in the world really hostile and i do think that you know in terms of interests united states interests in europe are different now than they were while seventy years ago but even fifty or thirty years ago the united states still needs europe to some extent and the united states still needs europe to be you know peaceful but i do think that the outlook is way more towards the east towards asia towards china and i think we as europeans and as crucially important we as europeans need to understand that there is a change of you know american interests and keeping the american in in is an important aspect of it but also europeans need to build up their own capabilities can you quantify the likelihood that donald trump will announce the u.s.

withdrawal from nato in the year this year. it has been actively room the german i was talking about these articles from the us you know that and we've got back as well saying that as there's great concern among the europeans about the next sweets there is there is one small foot load militarily america has been building up its nature commitment and the rhetoric from the president is going the other way but that's when even the secretary general is concerned there's a tweet is going to land on his table or in his mobile device the donald trump is going to announce it's the end of the story but i think the i mean we have two scenarios a one as he just moves out everybody else shocked but i think it's a maybe most dangerous more dangerous scenario is that he's just not interested in if he doesn't leave tonight night it does need to leave nato to we do we can it if the u.s. is politically less committed if their military would be less committed if they don't talk wheatley highly of both nato and the allies if they just say. but people

under so maybe germany is not a good ally maybe a way to committed that's already a problem because again the credibility of nato is all countries be. and together and if the biggest ally the most important in many tobie political and nuclear terms if this says actually i don't really care anymore than they do has a major problem and then they come towards or rekha funk i just mention. what is our european i'm so ready to take questions and i say let me read one. contributor a journalist sorry but it's time for the europeans to tend to their own garden. you know in the ninety's when the bottom will start as one of the european politicians says this is you know if you go up there and you know what happened afterwards it wasn't the all of europe so i'm always a bit concerned i think it's the europeans don't have a choice they need to do more in security and. they need to do

a lot more. but they should have little bit shy away from this big rhetoric which we often have in europe so we need to think about what we should do what we can do without the u.s. always miss a large part of what the points shy away from the big resurrect the big rhetoric of i. for example from a very big security conference an influential voice here in germany said it is time now europe's political task is its own emancipation it's not too much well first of all i like your metaphor that you just pulled up a tendinitis on gardening is that what is that evokes bunch of aging europeans cutting rosebushes well there's a nice things on the outside so that tending the garden is exactly the problem i and i know one thing is sure is that you did call so do a lot of people i don't see any of it even on the horizon again the germans are part of the problem we can i'm sure get to that but they don't have the same military or geostrategic traditions the french the germans the others and they attack it in the typical european way with bureaucracy and acronyms so you have

a lot of things they're named pescado and card but they can't even agree that that's a point you've made claudia the french germans can't even agree on what what arms to export to which countries given that they supply components to the same weapons sometimes they're there at loggerheads over everything and i think the chance that pushed that if there was an actual security crisis like the russian attack of some sort that these armies would fight as one army in the coming generation is very low . just talking about the possibilities that the europeans have the options that the europeans need to address of the top of the show in your statement cloudier you to . nuclear weapons were you talking about germany or possibly accessing a nuclear option at some stage in the future no i was talking i was talking more largely about deterrence in europe and last year the us openly

accused russia of violating the un of treaty and now both countries are going to walk out of the treaty that was a milestone offer security order in europe and that actually shows that we have a return of nuclear weapons in security and in defense of your that's a very unpleasant topic but the question so europeans need to ask is what are we going to do if washer has nuclear weapons pointed to europe what does our we're on set in europe we see us is it a conventional answer is it the disarmament initiative so we don't like the topic particularly we don't like it in germany but we need to talk about what is our reaction and the second nuclear topic which we have is if the us is less interested in europe but in the same time as us provides a nuclear umbrella that protects europe and the us is less interested what we are going to do is that a replacement is a franco british and so it's a european answer and this it nuclear question is the germans because the germans participate in the nuclear deterrence was

a place of planes which are too old and needs to be replaced so the new questions come in from all angles and particularly in germany it's a very easy unpleasant topic but we need to talk about it and that's going to be i'm afraid it's going to be a big mess as you ok let's talk about germany donald trump has repeated who suggested that american above all germany are freeloaders and there are other nato members who believe that germany is not exactly what might be seen as a reliable partner as just gets a taste of the case for and against germany. germany is helping in mali with troops supporting the united nations mission in this west african trouble spot their training mali and security forces among other top. and in afghanistan with some twelve hundred troops the german military is the second biggest contributor of personnel to nato is resolute support mission after the u.s. . and with the rapid response force germany is currently leading the spearhead of

nato. it was formed as the ukraine crisis unfolded as a deterrent against russia. something of a deterrent to germany's contribution is its defense budget. and finance minister old off scholtz plans to cut it back to one point two three percent of g.d.p. by two thousand and twenty three far below nato's invision goal of two percent. chancellor merkel is still counting on one and a half percent until two thousand and twenty four. for us to fulfill their stated all the occasion i stand behind that and so does the german government. can the nato partners rely on germany. this year german foreign minister. said nato is about decency and dependability and not just cash in contributions to a dependability is important that more and more of germany's allies are beginning to doubt that germany is a reliable act what's your take on

a lot they're not wrong i mean i'm not sure they're right but they're not wrong and this goes back you have to understand this is not about trump this goes back several administrations. defense secretary gates in the w. bush administration came out strongly criticizing the germans they've just been more diplomatic and that's just the americans but the other partners as well and germany clearly has. thanks to this it's been trying to cash in its alleged peace dividend after the cold war and it has let its army navy and air force just go to rags i mean there's a submarines that don't float and airplanes are don't fly and all of that and that's now well documented and that's. not and that goes against the grain and i think the germans are now wrong as merkel and her finance minister scholtz as they like to do is to split hairs over how whether a percentage of g.d.p. is a good figure or not you know i would suggest you get a recession if you can somebody made this or you don't want them to do is become an

incredibly important symbolic debate where the actual money is willing to pull its weight and it's not just symbolic i mean number one i think it chip they've relatively clear that germany needs to invest more in its military simply in terms of capabilities as was mentioned there are so many systems that do not work we haven't we don't have as many people in uniform as we would like to so i think there's first of all a need for more investment that needs to be fulfilled but the second point of course is that the pen debility and i travel a lot you know within europe i go to paris i go to wall saw and i don't think berlin realizes to what extent it has lost really the the trust of a cool user and i want to be with bill or you mean the berlin political analyst leadership there is no i don't and i don't really know the whole state know that germany's credibility is at risk but whenever i talk to them they tell me oh you know what don't trust the numbers we currently have on the table it's going to go up i mean defense spending right it's going to go up in the budget process of going to be finally going to get towards the one point five percent from what do you say

it's about so sister when it's presented to you i say i look at the numbers that are actually on the table as do all the other european and transatlantic allies and we see that we are nowhere near the one point five the germany said it's going to achieve and of course we are nowhere near the two point two percent that germany set it by twenty twenty four and this isn't a terrible signal and quite honestly no i don't think that the the berlin establishment really realizes how have you to reflect on the day i think i've been seeing is is intriguing to me if i want to test it on you i believe that for the last few years since then president gallup gave a speech at the munich security conference that the berlin elites the. bill around this part of town actually do understand that germany's allies are having doubts but there's no but the german public is completely uncoupled from this elite and there's no zero courage on the part of members of this elite to explain it to

them they all thought specially in the social democratic party is that you do not want to touch is that the third rail of german politics so i think no one's actually foreign policy security policy and the need to arm for real threats to the public in a very know that the public doesn't want to doesn't want to interact with that it would be the actual entity i think the public actually is well they're willing to listen to that but the problem is not to talk about numbers we talk about one point we want one for one point five we don't we to talk about defense and we don't really talk about strategy and i think one of the major problems germany has a dozen lots in defense i mean if you look at the defense budget ten years ago or twenty thirty or thirty three billion they'll be at forty three so things moved indeed and germany so in a lot of nato but on the other hand then comes the domestic debate in the kind of party power politics and then germany is sending mixed messages what you mention so the question is restrict or not stream not stream to the pipeline and then the same

time we do lots of deterrence and defense in the east so our partners say what you actually want you want to do that up on project with the russians or you want to defend us against the russians then we have to export problem on the one hand we want to build a strategic autonomous your office friends with big industrial flexible projects but then we don't want to export them so our partners say yes obviously in terms of credibility even liability we don't really know what you want and that's the same with a one point five or two percent defense budget we come out talk about what you that's what isn't the whole day and then it's about strengthening the institutions to do what your doctor has made to you you when you say maybe not so there is a kind of gap between what we do and what we talk about. and that's. true or not. i couldn't say it any better the the seven decade. since we're talking about that on the seventieth birthday of nato for seven decades germany has outsourced its security to the big brother the united states and has basically shirked

studion it it hasn't understood that it that the big brother is fed up with that and it has to do something itself and it is just in denial and that's the part of the public debate i was criticizing. maybe just one point on the public it is true that the german public tends to be a pacifist a country like the military as much that's all however i increasingly get the impression that german politicians almost like to hide behind this alleged public opinion because i do think that. to try to explain the fundamental truths about. you know. the public's i think hiding behind an. argument. i'm afraid that thank you very much. i hope we have

plenty of food for question old.

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millions can live. this is g w news live from berlin tonight the irish border breaks it and the berlin wall the german chancellor visits ireland amid growing fears of a no deal breaks it i'm going to medical cited her own personal history behind the iron curtain and she told the irish prime minister that she understands the importance of maintaining peace at the irish border especially with bricks that

loomed also coming off germany's for.