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tv   Quadriga  Deutsche Welle  April 12, 2019 6:30am-7:01am CEST

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began around six hundred years ago. in renaissance. park. scientists. and artists. in general the darkest leisure to read. the renaissance time stories of the route twenty seven on d. w. . hello and welcome to the international talk show quadriga where today we're talking about the one thousand battle hardened islamic state fighters and their families from germany some of them are now on their way back home many are already here following i asked this collapse in syria and iraq to both men and women and among
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them are vicious killers and war criminals of those who have returned a number are already on trial what should germany do with them should they answer for their crimes and be sent to prison should social workers help them integrate back into society into neighborhoods schools workplaces. islamic state terror today just how dangerous are returning i-s. fighters i'm brian thomas and joining me here in berlin to talk about that is amir masowe he works for media outlets here in germany and in iraq he says some i asked attorneys are dangerous but more dangerous is the updated ideology they bring with them. allan posing as a commentator for the daily newspaper de velde he argues if we want other states to take back their citizens who we consider terrorists then we have to take back our citizens who have committed terrorist acts. and kristen helberg is
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a featured mideast analyst at a number of european publications she points out bias is militarily defeated but not ideologically the west must help the kurds in dealing with the jobs. a warm welcome to all of you and to those of you joining us from around the world kristen if we could start with you you've also written two books about this topic about i.a.'s about syria you spent a lot of time in the country let's get a a demographic of our average i-s. fighter jet hottest who is he and what drew him to fight in syria to fight in iraq well it's not that easy because behind the one thousand and fifty german fighters there are one thousand personal stories they are quite young the majority of them they have radicalized very quickly usually over the internet so some of them are converts german citizens convert some of them are migration and they have a migration background in germany but i think what generalizes them would be that
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they feel alienated from german society they felt that this is not their country this would be from women for example who left the kind of fed who said that i don't want to educate my children in this country i feel i'm a part of this country personal frustration maybe as a muslim feeling you know this new anti muslim ideas many german citizens so this is a general question of why did these citizens german citizen not feel at home in germany ok then how did they radical as you know this is a this is basically an internet problem and internet probably get back to that aspect let's talk about the nation first allan if you could pick up on that is that a failure of integration into german society is a result of the rise of the right what's behind so many young people sympathizing with i.s.i. and even going to fight in iraq and syria for them now returning home i don't think it's neither a fate. of integration although integration has failed in some respects noisy with
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being discriminated against nor really is it all that many people i mean. we have had homegrown terrorism here think of the so-called red army faction the movement of the second of june people of my generation who went underground and they had thousands of sympathizers hundreds of people who went underground help them in all sorts of organizations and they were neither alienated nor were they you know conversed islam and i think so there you disagree or disagree with chris and you think they're not alienated. they may be alienated business because they're being discriminated against and i think it's some good happens it can happen to you quite quickly in as as as a cousin said over the internet suddenly you find something that seems to explain all your problems and gives you a purpose in life and and off you go and you know we had this with with is
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interesting because the r.a.f. the red army faction on the one hand you had these highly intelligent intellectuals on and on the other hand you had sort of semi criminal koreas hoof and they they bonded and it's quite similar with i as you have these semi criminals or real criminals and but then he was a very intelligent converts often who take the ideology of islam which they've half understood and convert it into something which reminds me again more of european terrorism than of anything you know from islam is one of the similarities certainly the danger in here you say that these individuals these young men are dangerous but more dangerous is the ideology can you expand on that exactly because i think when we defeated a military kind of still existing to low think this. poll how the ideology is still existing with that people that ditching. when they come back here
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not all of them of course possible most of them they are still dangerous and they have equipped with military training themselves they just found that image imagination that we can live in a state. governed by sharia this is possible ok the project is filled but still the hope still existing and i think we should just be careful who are we going to bring back which case he is how distance is he from this that i think the most dangerous is the woman because the more logical eyes than the. i think the combination between what back to the question why they left germany and i think the combination of the individual problem. person the problem and the international jihadism it does not offend them and just in germany look to whole europe its war divide
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a problem where this fix in one time in one place is the toxic brew isn't exactly recent problems in the ideology christian to pick it up actually what. i think it's very important i would very much agree on that i think that jihadi i don't know gee it's some kind of a youth movement as it was thirty years ago with the left so that i was in if you where the way if you wanted to stand up against the society as a whole you were looking for justice justice is a major feature if you talk to extreme it's all about treating it just state just order so at that time it was leftist marxist idea and now it's not so it's really some kind of a fashion as well youth fashion that is never easily promoted through the internet that gets to these people because it attracts them it attracts them and you pointed out that that it is in fact young women and amy are that's what the new research is showing is that young women are especially attractive why would they be especially attractive or young. women particularly optimistic were what quality do they have
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the quality of women is kind of advertising for the especially women coming from western countries just to get to say it for the local i s members look that people have everything in europe but they left them back and they come to us that give us good ability that we are in the right time in the right truck and b. side of this they married with fighters also it is something interesting and i think when you we look for one example we said we saw a women married as fighter went to syria he killed in fighting and she came back to germany and. another guy went against second time there this isn't a this is an example to show you how dangerous they are you've interviewed a number of. women women the brides of the highest fighters. was
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there an attraction to the anti feminist message that is part of the city ology what drew them in the the women you talk to while in the end of the day that women live in a kind of sharia. imagination that the woman play the role as a host wife she should serve her man and she is she should keep herself in hosts she serve the religions she serve the god when she said of her men this is a kind of you can't say it and t. for them isn't like this but also with the communal energy inside because they look to others unbelievers and they do not accept even to talk with someone i came from iraq and i talk with her she said i don't want to talk with you because you are i believe or something like this our perspective this is. then again if
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you're in this regard you can roll your eyes a bit chris and we're going to that's true but every shouldn't forget that one third of the i.s.i. has already came back and among them a lot of women who are completely disillusioned because they went they thought the caliphate was some place some ideal place you know where the people would live in respect and just is an everybody would have his plays and she would have an important role to play and there was no exploit and they were exploited all they felt that this is not the place that they were dreaming also they came back so not all of them obviously logically. we have to admit and i think the women that they're convinced of it they feel that they have a certain place they they have an important role to play they they are respected as a woman they are against this sexualized role of women in the west you know they would criticize this obviously because we have a problem with the role moment a role model of women some of the other left. of the west is and because i mean this is something you know that doesn't help them in their rights but something that they feel that they would lose the dignity and ok in that respect let's meet
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one of these women right now among those returning from the battlefields of syria iraq as we've been discussing are not only hardened worriers but also women and children the wives sons and daughters of those combatants one woman attempting to get back to germany as wife is now living in a syrian refugee camp with her summer son she says she was forced into the situation and was a captive broad of islamic state. a room somewhere in northern syria tens of thousands of people live in this overcrowded refugee camp among them children indeed men and women and perhaps islamic state militants most want to return to their home countries this quickly as possible. one is they not she used to live in berlin with her turkish husband on a visit to turkey he forced her to accompany him to syria where he joined the i.r.s. according to her statements now her husband is. it's
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horrible the crimes i says committed in the name of islam. and i'm hoping i'll be allowed to come back to my beloved home country germany. chant. her son was born during the war now she's hoping the worst is behind her. thought. cruel things happen their women and children have no value at all women were horribly mistreated by isis. whether complicit or not should isis pollers get a second chance. what do you think there is she telling the truth and how do you go about ascertaining something like that you know this is a standard so what we get when we interview the people that they don't they don't accept the islamic state and so on but i think this is we should really think about
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what they say because for me personally i do not believe her because she is she live in this level stay till two thousand and thirteen for almost four years that for years there were many many chances to lift the state and to go to surround herself and we saw many cases by the way that women really do not accept is that difficult. difficult some they manage to top. to go back to end of the day we should think about who are going to come back in which case is the whole distance has or they have four of the. g. and a really it's need a lot of fork it's need evidence when you go to the courts you should brink black and white the kurds who are in control much of the area where these former people are being held so it's very difficult to get that kind of evidence alan what do you
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think how should we deal with these cases should they be tried in syria these should these individuals once they return here be subject to german law. well look i'm glad that we have this problem because remember how we pointed the finger at the united states about guantanamo they had similar problems that these two have been found on the battlefield they were obviously they had been fighters that but you know you couldn't prove it what to do with them so they dumped them in a sort of extralegal a place called guantanamo we're doing the same with these people we're saying to the kurds you hang on to them we don't want them for whatever reason now. we can do that but then we have to be at war to climb off our high horse with regards to guantanamo what i think since we have put ourselves on this position that we say everyone deserves a fair trial that a person like the young woman you just heard should come back to germany and make a case in charge of membership of an foreign terrorist organization paragraph one
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hundred twenty nine eight and two or three years in prison and she can make a case and see if one can believe i think that that's one officer another compelling issue here and that's what to do about the children what about her little boy that's very important because most of these children a very young age between one and five years old so really to leave them in syria and. iraq means that we are creating a next generation off young people who have not entered school we're not educated to have only learn to fight so we can really not afford this so to take care of the children we need a whole set of measures i think we need the jurisdiction of course we have a state of law we have everything we need we have the laws that we need we have to find proof but it's not it's not that difficult in terms of terrorist organization because you have to prove that they actively supported a terrorist organization which sometimes it's easier because you find evidence on the internet because they themselves post with victims and with what they did. so
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many to be honest it's not it's not easy but if you'd like to evidence of that as what to do with the children though as we as we you know we enhance because out of this we are visitors one point the other thing a social worker it's the only thing it's the other thing is psychological. work as obviously who work with these children who try to do you read them but try to give them a child to to try to set them on zero and start again basically you have to work very closely with the families of these former members the families of the women for example of maybe the grandparents of could take of that here in germany is what's happening actually this is some experience with this from the last few years when they when the first came back the first few members i mean how do other islamic countries deal with this problem other arab countries deal with the problem of foreign fighters that are returning home their wives their children does are is it different in egypt for example or saudi arabia how they approach this issue while they have also kind of. programs for example.
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we were implementing also you call personal and also social worker to get the detainees. for example in tunisia about i think just to step back for the question what we we should behave with that sentiment i think the most of. question are we going to face the next generation of i guess i hope that i'm wrong but the question is yes because when i see this girl the politician and the situation in politics situation in syria or syria in iraq the making this same mistakes before before two thousand and fourteen pressuring undeveloped country without told. using the court in a strong and i think people in the end of the day they need prosperity they need to
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hold they need they need to have a kind of a light in the end of the tunnel to it was delayed to them from the us but when they come together in this social situation. will the grown up again again i was like an assortment virus that's waiting to emerge on the other proper conditions this is exactly what i mean when i'm saying we have not forward it i don't logically if you're talking about really defeating isis on an ideological base you have to think about the reasons why people turn to ice and the conditions of life that they are facing we've determined the third they could be personal as well as what the europeans we're talking about the regional if you look at syria if you look at iraq if you look at egypt you have really the ground is prepared for an extremist organization to come back because we have to take care about education about political part when you say we are you talking about dignity international about who your national community who is supposedly fighting isis isis but only on
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a militarily level which is not enough because we have to take care about the regions that we the west destroyed for example a city of lies in ruins or libya right one and a half years after the liberation of iraq still lies in ruins full of minds people displaced around they cannot come back they don't have a dignified life they cannot politically participate nor the sunnis in iraq nor don't even think about it in syria think about it is this is not for. you know there's also turkey's and all that is a region you can't just point your finger at the west it's going to you know you can't point because europe really hasn't learned the lesson from the arab horizon they misunderstand dictatorship with stability this is what you see egypt if you put a young activist into egypt prisons this is really what makes him an extremist would you agree that the west has a special responsibility to go back to syria to iraq stabilize them in a way that. precludes islamic state from rising again yes i would agree
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one of the problems in iraq was for instance when the americans were then they had . a rose possibly from members of the old army in the baath party and so on and the americans under general petraeus at this john the arab awakening they defeated al qaeda not only military but also politically but then the americans left and comes back and the baath party comes back to as in the form of i it's going to get the stuff exactly so we're always you know we always think obie go in we can find you his good and then we go out again that doesn't work like that because let's pick up on this and so the islamic state desperate if you will these so-called islamic state has been crushed on the battlefield in syria and iraq on the battlefield that is but it's far from a spent force in other countries like some in africa and as far as field as indonesia. isis fighters were on the advance that was in
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twenty fourteen when the terrorist organization took the city of raka syria. it was the start of five years of war ending with thousands dead and captured now isis is last fortification the village of bug who is on syria's border to iraq has fallen the islamic states caliphate appears to be an end with help from the international alliance combating isis in the middle east. but observers warn it isis still poses a danger the extremist militants have gone underground in iraq and elsewhere including the leader of the group back here i'll back down to. the terrorist militia can still mobilize thousands of fighters and tens of thousands of sympathizers the idea of the islamic state lives on. since the summer of twenty eighteen around two hundred fifty attacks have been made outside of syria. how dangerous is isis now.
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amir what do you think is i-s. more dangerous now than it was prior to its defeat in some ways i believe yes because we are talking about millions of dollars investing in a normal economy that has managed before they defeated in iraq and see the tool in turkey in europe that the money is there a different. system is going on on the ground and the side of this of the states the sales still active we have about fifty attacks in iraq still to love every month. and beside of the fact that i just would like to show that they are still existing they are trying to make attacks here and there just to say we are still strong but i think in the end of the day the dangers will be less or more. to bend on the question how we are determined to do with this problem in the law
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not in the short term just putting bombs as you say social political engagement there's a there's a long term study that we need to have but ellen also needs to be a short term strategy we've had the christmas market attack here was an i.r.s. directly but affiliated individual are german authorities prepared for iris attacks here in germany you know if i say yes then tomorrow a bomb goes off and you can't be prepared can you because i mean we've seen all the mistakes that were made with the christmas market attack and it could could have been pretty prevented but it's easy to say that after the event and i think german the german authorities i mean we never hear about the many attacks that they foiled we only hear about the ones that get to go through i ask claimed responsibility for the christmas market it would be like a franchise on the i mean a bomb goes off they say oh it was us and all the people who made the bombs that oh
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we're islamic state you that you never know but look we're going to have to live with terror of for the rest of our lives that's for sure and we're just going to have to get used to it and react from time to time at the same time i agree with i mean totally a long term side to look what's happening in sudan and in algeria people want democracy people who want to totally change how they can leave them in the lurch are we going to do something or are you arguing for a return of a strong american presence to the region something that under the current administration would be very difficult. not only american european i mean it's our neighborhood it's not even america's neighborhood i mean used to be a member of the european union when it was top to front but it depends what kind of . change we're not talking about going back telling the people who to vote for and what to do about supporting the people in these countries.
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have the. courage to do so these people feel let down completely by the european union and. wherever in the world they feel we have to really go back to the condition of these people and not have these conditions. or central question as hundreds of jobs returned from battlefields how dangerous is islamic state here in germany today in a numeric scale from one to five with five being extremely dangerous how would you rate the dangerous threat. it's a question we should. still. not special of the children but we should work in the long term question one to five. five but i would. take the chance to work with. the other ones we have to put in jail. or. if you want to rate give us your rating.
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with the comments on our you tube feed follow us on twitter give us your rating there how dangerous is in germany right now what do you think we'd like to hear from you i'm brian thomas for all the guests thanks so much for joining us and soul .
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absolutely. africa wrong company president obama and a good job on the patriotic front qahtani the rebel army and in the ninety's before genocide wasn't doing well in oakland when for us to be you're caught out need to reinforce a controversial leader whose success is beyond question
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i mean. thanks to. all we can be the generation that ends it for good malaria must start so millions can live. u.s. officials have charged weiqi leaks founder julian assange with conspiracy to commit computer intrusion just hours earlier british police arrested a song after ecuador revoked his seven year asylum ecuador allowed police to enter the country's embassy in london to take him into custody he now faces extradition to the u.s.
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. pro-democracy demonstrators in sudan's capital khartoum continue to protest after armed forces ousted president.

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