scientists. forced. to endure the darkest believed years to end. the renaissance fashion stores of people twenty second d. w. . a low and welcome to the international talk show quadriga where today we're talking about the one thousand battle hardened islamic state fighters and their families from germany some of them are now on their way back home many are already here following i asked this collapse in syria and iraq both men and women and among them are vicious killers and war criminals of those who have returned a number are already on trial what should germany do with them should they answer

for their crimes and be sent to prison should social workers help them integrate back into society into neighborhood schools workplaces. islamic state terror today just how dangerous are returning fighters i'm brian thomas and joining me here in berlin to talk about that is amir masowe he works for media outlets here in germany and in iraq he says some i asked attorneys are dangerous but more dangerous is the updated ideology they bring with them. allan poe's and as a commentator for the daily newspaper de velde he argues if we want other states to take back their citizens who we consider terrorists then we have to take back our citizens who have committed terrorist acts and kristen helberg is a featured mideast analyst in a number of european publications she points out i yes is militarily defeated but not i do. illogically the west must help the kurds in dealing with the jobs.

a warm welcome to all of you and to those of you joining us from around the world kristen if we could start with you you've also written two books about this topic about i.a.'s about syria you spent a lot of time in the country let's get to a demographic of our average i-s. fighter jet hottest who is he and what drew him to fight in syria to fight in iraq well it's not that easy because behind the one thousand and fifty german fighters there are one thousand personal stories they are quite young the majority of them they have radicalized very quickly usually over the internet so some of them are converts german citizens convert some of them are migration and they have a migration background in germany but i think what generalizes them would be that they feel alienated from german society they felt that this is not their country this would be from women for example who left for the caliphate who said that i

don't want to educate my children in this country i feel i'm a part of this country personal frustration maybe as a muslim feeling you know this new anti muslim idea many german citizens so this is a general question of why did these citizens german citizen not feel at home in germany and then how did they radicalize you know this is a this is basically an internet problem an internet probably get back to that aspect let's talk about the nation first allan if you could pick up on that is it a failure of integration into german society as a result of the rise of the right what's behind so many young people sympathizing with i.i.s. and even going to fight in iraq and syria for them now returning home i don't think it's neither afraid of integration although integration has failed in some respects noise jus with being discriminated against nor really is it all that many. people i

mean. we have had homegrown terrorism here think of the so-called red army faction the movement of the second of june people of my generation who went underground and they had thousands of sympathizers hundreds of people who went underground help them in all sorts of organizations and they were neither a native nor were they you know conversed islam and i think so david you disagree or disagree with chris and you think they're not alienated. maybe alienated does not because they're being discriminated against i think it's some good happens it can happen to you quite quickly in as as as a cousin said over the internet suddenly you find something that seems to explain all your problems and gives you a purpose in life and and off you go and you know we had this with is interesting because the are you have read on the fact on the one hand you have these highly intelligent intellectuals and on the other hand you had sort of semi criminal

koreas hoofed and they they bonded and it's quite similar with i as you have these semi criminals or real criminals and but then he was a very intelligent converts often who take the ideology of islam which they've half understood and convert it into something which reminds me again more of european terrorism than of anything you know from islam is one of the similarities certainly the danger in here you say that these individuals these young men are dangerous but more dangerous is the ideology can you expand on that exactly because i think oh and we defeated a military still existing to low think this. poll how the idle is still existing with that people the detainees when they come back here not all of them of course most of most of them they are still dangerous and they have equipped with military training to equip themselves. just follow that image

that we can live in a state. governed by sharia this is possible ok the project is filled but still the hope still existing and i think we should just be careful who are we going to bring back which case he is how distance is he from this that i think the most dangerous is the woman because there are more logical laws than and i think the combination between what back to the question why they left germany and i think the combination of the individual problem. person the problem and the international jihadism it is not offend them and just in germany look to the whole europe ward wider problem where this fix it one time in one place is the toxic brew is another disaster is no problems in the ideology so kristen didn't

pick it up actually what linda said ok it's i think it's very important i would very much agree on that i think that jihadi i don't know gee it's some kind of a youth movement as it was thirty years ago with the left so that i was in if you where the way if you wanted to stand up against the society as a whole you were looking for justice justice is a major feature if you talk to extreme it's all about treating it just stayed just order so at that time it was leftist marxist idea and now it's not so it's really some kind of a fashion as well youth fashion that is very easily promoted through the internet that gets to these people because it attracts them it attracts them and you pointed out that that it is in fact young women and amy are that's what the new research is showing is that young women are especially attracted why would they be especially attracted to young women particularly optimistic or what quality do they have the quality of women is kind of advertising for the. especially women coming from

western countries just to get to say for the local law yes members look that people have everything in europe but they left them back and they come to us that give us good ability that we are in the right time in the right truck and b. side of this they married with fighters also it is something interesting and i think when you we look for one example we said we saw a women married as fighter went to syria he killed in fighting and she came back to germany and. another guy went against second time there this isn't it this is an example to show you how dangerous they are you've interviewed a number of women women the brides of the highest fighters. was there an attraction to the anti feminist message that is part of the city ology

what drew them in the the women you talk to while in the end of the day that women live in the kind of sharia. imagination that the woman play the role as a host wife she should serve her man and she is she should keep herself in hosts she serve the religions she serve the god when she said of her man this is a kind of you can say it and t. phantom ism like this but also with the kind of energy inside because they look to others unbeliever. and they do not accept even to talk with someone i came from iraq and i talk with her she said i don't want to talk with you because you are unbeliever something like this our perspective then again with you and your years there you can roll your eyes a bit chris and i want to that's true but every son forget that one third of the i.a.s. find already came back and among them a lot of women who were completely dissolute. because they went they they thought

the caliphate was some place some ideal place you know where the people would live in respect and just is and everybody would have his place and she would have an important role to play and there was not exploited they were exploited or they felt that this is not the place that they were dreaming also they came back so not all of them of. persons we have to admit and i think the women that are convinced of it they feel that they have a certain place they they have an important role to play they they are respected as a woman they are against this sexualized role of women in the west you know they would criticize this obviously because we have a problem with a. role model of women you know the left. of the west is and i mean this is something that doesn't help them in their rights but something that they feel that they would lose the dignity it ok in that respect let's meet one of these women right now among those returning from the battlefields of syria iraq as we've been discussing are not only hardened worriers but also women and children the

wives sons and daughters of those combatants one woman attempting to get back to germany is a wife now living in a syrian refugee camp with her summer son she says she was forced into the situation and was a captive broad of islamic states. a room somewhere in northern syria tens of thousands of people live in this overcrowded refugee camp among them children indeed men and women and perhaps islamic state militants most want to return to their home countries as quickly as possible. one is they not she used to live in berlin with her turkish husband on a visit to turkey he forced her to accompany him to syria where he joined the i.s.i. according to her statements now her husband is. it's horrible the crimes i says committed in the name of islam. and i'm hoping i'll be

allowed to come back to my beloved home country germany i might want to chant. her son was born during the war now she's hoping the worst is behind her. cruel things happen their women and children have no value at all women were horribly mistreated by isis. whether complicit or not should isis palabras get a second chance. what do you think there is she telling the truth and how do you go about ascertaining something like that you know this is a standard so what we get when we interview of the people that they don't they don't accept the islamic state and so on but i think this is we should really think about what they say because for me personally i do not believe her because she is she live in this level stay till two thousand and four almost four years that four

years there were many many chances to lift the state and to go to surround herself and we saw many cases by the way that women really do not accept the difficult. difficult time they manage to top. to to go back and the end of the day we should think about who are going to come back in which cases and how distance has or they have four of the. g. and a really it's it's need a lot of fork it's the need evidence when you go to the courts you should bring black and white and the kurds who are in control much of the area where these former people are being held so it's very difficult to get that kind of evidence alan what do you think how should we deal with these cases should they be tried in syria these are these individuals once they return here be subject to german law.

well look i'm glad that we have this problem because remember how we pointed the finger at the united states about guantanamo they had similar problems that these people have been found on the battlefield they were obviously they had been fighters that but you know you couldn't prove it what to do with them so they dumped them in a sort of extralegal place called guantanamo we're doing the same with these people we're saying to the kurds you hang on to them we don't want them for whatever reason now. we can do that but then we ought to be at war to climb off our high horse with regards to guantanamo what i think since we have put ourselves on this position that we say everyone deserves a fair trial that a person like the young woman you just heard should come back to germany and make a case in charge of membership of an foreign terrorist organization paragraph one hundred twenty nine eight and three years in prison and she can make a case and see if one can believe i think that that's what i offer this is another

compelling issue here and that's what to do about the children what about her little boy that's very important because most of these children are very young age between one and five years old so really to leave them in syria and iraq means that we are creating a next generation off young people who have not entered school who are not educated who have only learned to fight so we can really not afford this so to take care of the children we need a whole set of measures i think we need the jurisdiction of course we have a state of law we have everything we need we have the laws that we need we have to find proof but it's not it's not that difficult in terms of terrorist organization because you have to prove that they actively supported a terrorist organization which sometimes it's easier because you find evidence on the internet because they themselves post with victims and with what they did. so and as you to be honest it's not easy but if you would like to a little bit as what to do with the church. though as we as we you know we have

because out of this we are visitors one point the other thing a social worker it's the only thing it's the other thing is psychological. work has obviously who worked with these children who try to divide collines them but try to give them a try to to try to set them on zero and start again basically you have to work very closely with the families of these former members the families of the women for example of maybe the grandparents of could take of the here in germany is what's happening actually there's some experience with this from the last few years when they when the first came back the first few members i mean how do other islamic countries deal with this problem other arab countries deal with the problem of foreign fighters that are returning home their wives their children does are is it different in egypt for example or saudi arabia how they approach this issue while they have also kind of. programs for example in. warrior where they are implementing also. personal role and also social worker

to get the data needs. for example in tunisia about i think just to step back for the question what we we should behave with that sentiment i think the most important question are we going to face the next generation of i guess i hope that i'm wrong but the question is yes because when i see this question in the grow that the pollution and the situation of politics situation in syria now or in syria in iraq the making the same mistakes before before two thousand and fourteen pressuring undeveloped country without toll. using the court in a strong and i think people in the end of the day they need prosperity they need to hold they need they need to have a kind of a light in the end of the time. goal was delayed to the from the. but when they

come together in this social situation the artist will have grown up again again. it's like a virus that's waiting to emerge on the other proper conditions this is exactly what i mean when i'm saying we have not formed it ideologically if you're talking about really defeating isis on an ideological base you have to think about the reasons why people turn to ice and the conditions of life that they have we've determined that they are they could be personal as well as of the europeans we're talking about the regional if you look at syria if you look at iraq if you look at egypt you have really the ground is prepared for an extremist organization to come back because we have to take care about education about political part when they say we are you talking about dignity international about national community who is supposedly fighting isis isis but only on a militarily level which is not enough because we have to take care about the regions that we the west destroyed for example city of lies in ruins or libya right

one and a half years after the liberation of iraq it still lies in ruins it's full of mines people displaced around they cannot come back they don't have a dignified life they cannot politically participate nor the sunnis in iraq nor don't even think about it in syria think about it is not really the mare's also turkey's involved in the region you can't just point your finger at the west go you know you can't point because europe really hasn't learned the lesson from the arab arising stake they misunderstand dictatorship with stability this is what you see egypt if you put a young activist into egypt prisons this is really what makes him an extremist would you agree that the west has a special responsibility to go back to syria to iraq stabilize them in a way that. precludes islamic state from rising again. yes i would agree. one of the problems in iraq was for instance when the americans were then they had this. arose possibly from members of the old army in the baath party and so

on and the americans under general petraeus at this john the arab awakening they defeated al qaeda not only military but also politically but then the americans left and al qaeda comes back and the baath party i comes back to as in the form of . exactly so we're always you know we always think we go in we find you his good and then we go out again that doesn't work like that because let's pick up on this and so the islamic state desperate if you will these so-called islamic state has been crushed on the battlefield in syria and iraq on the battlefield it is but it's far from a spent force in other countries like some in africa and as far as field as in the media. isis fighters were on the advance that was in two thousand and fourteen when the terrorist organization took the city of raka syria. it was the start of five years of war ending with thousands dead and captured now isis is last

fortification the village of the goose on syria's border to iraq has fallen the islamic states caliphate appears to be an end with help from the international alliance combating isis in the middle east. but observers warn it isis still poses a danger the extremist militants have gone underground in iraq and elsewhere including the leader of the group back here al but now to the terrorist militia can still mobilize thousands of fighters and tens of thousands of sympathizers the idea of the islamic state lives on. since the summer of twenty eighteen around two hundred fifty attacks have been made outside of syria. how dangerous is isis now. amir what do you think is i asked more dangerous now than it was prior to its

defeat in some ways i believe yes because we are talking about millions of dollars investing in a normal economy that managed before they defeated in iraq in syria in turkey in europe. the money is there the financing system is going all underground and the side of this is the slips the sales still active we have about fifty attacks in iraq still every month. and the side of the fact that i just would like to show that they are still existing they are trying to make attacks here and there just to say we are still strong but i think in the end of the day the dangers will be less or more. to bend on the question how we are determined to do with this problem in the law not in the short term just putting bombs as you say social

political engagement there's a there's a long term strategy that we need to have but elman also needs to be a short term strategy we've had the christmas market attack here was an i.r.s. directly but affiliated individual are german authorities prepared for iris attacks here in germany you know if i say yes then tomorrow a bomb goes off and you can't be prepared can you because i mean we've seen all the mistakes that were made with the christmas market attack and it could could have been pretty prevented but it's easy to say that after the event and i think german the german authorities i mean we never hear about the many attacks that they foiled we only hear about the ones that get to go through i ask claimed responsibility for the christmas market and it would be like a franchise on the i mean bomb goes off they say oh it was us and all the people who laid the bombs that oh we're islamic state you know you never know but look we're going to have to live with terror of for the rest of our lives that's for

sure and we're just going to have to get used to it and react from time to time at the same time i agree with i mean totally a long term side to look what's happening in sudan and in algeria people want democracy people who want to totally change how they can to leave them in the lurch are we going to do something or are you arguing for a return of a strong american presence to the region something that under the current administration would be very difficult. american european i mean it's our neighborhood it's not even america's neighborhood i mean used to be a member of the european union when it was pop to front but it depends what kind of . change we're not talking about going back telling the people who to vote for what to do it's about supporting the people that in these countries. the courage to do so these people feel let down completely by the european union and. wherever in the world they feel we have to really go back to the conditions of

these people and not have these conditions being. over their central question as hundreds of jobs returned from battlefields how dangerous is islamic state here in germany today in a numeric scale from one to five would five being extremely dangerous how would you rate the dangerous threat. is a question we should. still. not special of the children but we should work in the long term on this question one to five. five but i would. take the chance to work with one of the other ones we have to put in jail. or. if you want to rate give us your rating. with the comments on our you follow us on twitter give us your rating there how dangerous as in germany right now what do you

think we'd like to hear from you i'm brian thomas for all the guests thanks so much for joining us and soul.

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this is the day of unions coming to life from bernie and chopper from power but sudan's president won't face extradition for war crimes so they don't see a minute or two to say they would not handle what omar al bashir over to the international criminal court to face allegations of genocide he also said the transfer of power to the people could come soon or if handed handled smugly also coming up the phone system blind behind bars for wiki leaks founder julian assange is a rare.