discovered. subscribe to the documentary on you tube. you never stand up for your what of course we stand up for europe you seem to live in a kind of the universe you know like the old let's not be silly please the north atlantic treaty organization nato has just started seventieth birthday but it wasn't a happy one constant carping by donald trump about defense spending has caused bitter resentment here in europe my guest this week here at nato headquarters is rose gottemoeller the organizations deputy secretary general will she now acknowledge that nato has serious splits in its unity.

rose gottemoeller welcome to conflicts and we thank you great to be here your boss young stoltenberg reminded the world recently that nato his mission was to provide credible to terence and defense the fact is that the tyrants is no longer credible and hasn't been for a long time he said why do you say that we don't seem to think we're not in the midst of war when i say that because just five months ago america's national defense strategy commission painted a pretty dismal picture of the us his ability to protect both itself and his allies the security and well being of the us it said are at greater risk today than any time in decades america's superiority has a road to a dangerous to greet and its ability to defend its allies its partners and its own vital interests is increasingly in doubt that's that's dismal this and that there are many different fees. of how deterrence and defense are conducted today and i

think for nato the emphasis truly has to be on what we now call the hybrid challenges that are coming at us many of them associated with emergence of new technologies and accelerated by new technology let's look at defense commission fact those in its report and also say that the u.s. military could suffer and acceptably high casualties and the loss of major capital assets in its next conflict it might struggle to win a war against russia or china that's got that's not good news is it well what i have to tell you if you ask me the question about whether deterrence is working or not i have to say yes because we do in fact here at nato work together as twenty nine nations with the united states to provide for the deterrence and defense of all twenty nine allies and we do have challenges i don't want to sugarcoat the challenges that we face and particularly the challenges emanating from new technology but i'm not ready to cry that we're in the midst of disaster the

secretary general pointed out that for the first time nato has combat ready battle groups in the eastern part of the alliance for battle groups in the baltic states and poland plus additional forces amounting to a brigade the a third of the rand corporation doesn't think much of it says nato forces are not nearly sufficient to defend a contiguous line and delay a large scale conventional advance by a mechanized adversary such as russia again hardly a vote of confidence in the measures that lead to mistaken is it the four battle groups in the baltic states and in poland are not meant to hold the line for long they are precisely that they are going to be credible they are and they are credible as a deterrence and defense tripwire because they bring together forces from across the alliance units from every single nato ally practically are serving in those battle groups and server but you animal russian knows russian know that if they step across the line they will face. the entire nato alliance but that is why

nowadays we are placing our emphasis on reinforcement and readiness and being able to rapidly move troops in behind those battleground isn't impressed by that either it says that given the current posture and capability including the european battalions and rotational u.s. omid brigade combat team russia still enjoys a substantial time distance advantage in the initial days and weeks of a conventional ground campaign in the baltic states that's the reality of geo geography and the fact that russia does in fact sit as the great land power in eurasia that's a fact of history yeah but i do forces not providing the tenants that you promised i don't know why you keep saying that tim you're sorry i'm not sorry yes i'm going to work to live sorting some reports that have come about and i'm terribly amused by those ran reports you know i worked for random in one nine hundred eighty s. they said exactly the same thing during the cold war so the fact of the matter is

everybody gave up there's just no no they don't make it up but they are repeating you know what is based on a reality of the geopolitics and the geography of eurasia what we can do is ensure that russia knows all twenty nine allies are prepared to act and are prepared to reinforce and that has proven during the cold war an effective deterrent and i believe it proves an effective deterrent today the impression of an alliance that is no longer credible has been assisted if you like by years of war games played out on computers by the pen to good range of defense experts major consistently loses against what it considers to be its main adversary doesn't it well i think the best thing you can say about exercises of all kinds is that they are meant to stress test stress test until we understand where our weaknesses lie and what we have to do better i was present this fall when we had our big tried and juncture exercise which was not a. peter exercise it was

a big combined arms exercise in norway and it showed that it had been a long time since the alliance had reinforced across the north atlantic there were problems that emerged in the desert of the ball well we saw the end of the soviet union and everyone decided and it was a good thing the last tank of the united states left europe in two thousand and thirteen we saw that as a good thing but then after two thousand and fourteen and the aggression against crimea the seizure of crimea the destabilization of the donbass we had to think again about deterrence and defense that must be the agency must in there because last month give you an example a senior research at the center for a new america's security david up monica you probably know i know he said of a graphically that when the simulations were run against russia and china america get its backside gets its backside handed to it to put it slightly differently i've just adjusted it we usually fail he added to achieve our objective of preventing

aggression by the adversary do you think moscow has noticed that as well well i do think it's important as i said to train an exercise without taking our eye off the ball and when we learn that we have problems then we have to rectify them and that means a lot of hard work but we're in the midst of it it's extraordinary that you do have these problems because the staggering amount by which nato countries outspend russia on defense and still lose the war games it's surprising isn't it really. when you think that the alliances combines economic strength in twenty sixteen was about thirty one times that of russians. what you're doing with the money if you're not getting value for money you know you i'm asking the question as to whether the problems you describe are actually the problems that you have i'd be very interested to see how the russian general staff trains in exercises i'm sure they also train to stress themselves until they fail and then they have to work on their

problems so i think we have to consider what the challenges on both sides are and in the case of nato and its allies the united states and its allies i see capable forces that are adjusting to the modern warfare and are moving rather i would say flexible a and with speed to do so i'm not always sure i see that in the russian armed forces. despite a nato advantage of more than three quarters of a trillion dollars spent by the alliance's combined military forces in a single year i'm talking about twenty fifteen you would struggle to win a conflict with russia how is that possible when you outspend them to this enormous degree well again i'm not accepting the basis of your hypothesis i'm not sure that we would actually lose because again we have a great deal of flexibility and adaptability that's why nato has succeeded all these years we have been able to adapt to new challenges when they come out us you

think is succeeding well in two thousand and eight the russians took a bite out of georgia after a lightning strike i know wasn't a nato member bows a nato partner in twenty fourteen in crimea you mentioned they moved to seize that since twenty fourteen russian forces either regular or contract troops have been operating with pretty near impunity in eastern ukraine ten thousand people have died so there's glow that it's being keeping the peace isn't quite true is that i think it is important to point out the. that article five of the washington treaty applies to allies that's the famous all for one and one for all. part of the washington treaty that is the core of our defense alliance where george's concern in two thousand and eight that was an enormous wake up call and two thousand and fourteen represented a sea change for the alliance not even see it coming not only in terms of a wake up call in ukraine but also the fact that the rise of eisel the

establishment of the caliphate in mosul that brought the fight against terrorism and violent extremism into sharper focus as well so we did have a wake up call in that period and i think it has led to huge change in the alliance not least of which was a huge change in our defense spending and a look at what we really need today to counter both of these kinds of challenges but despite the fact that you provide ukraine with what stoltenberg called strong political and practical support it makes no difference to what russia's moves in the military field in that area has it it's strengthened its naval forces it's built up its tanks according to the chief of staff ukrainian general staff last year they built up tanks along the border they're not being deterred by your strong support political or otherwise for ukraine other i think they've taken notice we

have put quite a bit into training but i want to give credit to the ukrainian armed forces themselves they have been doing a lot to professionalize and develop their capability and capacity over the last six years that has really been impressive and so they working together with us and also with individual nato allies have been making a difference to hold the line but you continue to dangle nato membership is a carrot in front of them without giving them a time. table for it without a timetable is meaningless as. well let's have a moment to talk about that in two thousand and eight at the bucharest summit four countries spoke about their aspirations and nato agreed that they would be in the line to have nato membership those countries included ukraine and georgia but we have been very clear that both of those countries are still on the path of

reform we have to ensure that when countries are ready to enter nato store they are ready to contribute to security and defense in the alliance but also to come up to certain standards of democratic principle so what are you waiting for to moscow's think of another bite out of eastern ukraine know what we're waiting for is to see them come up to a certain level of readiness for nato membership. nato allies have reiterated the decision we made some years ago that ukraine will become a member of nato that's the bucharest summit to say that still stand at some point at some time it's up to ukraine to decide who their security relationships will be with that's an important principle from our perspective i have to say though it's also very important that all nato allies be ready to accept them and that means seeing a level of of reform and development in their not only armed forces but also in

their democratic practice let's talk about nato seventieth birthday which is just come and gone and the happiest one downgraded to foreign minister level instead of the usual heads of government. you disagree on many issues and you know secretary-general hardly ideal in an alliance that claims its strength rests on unity as is it the secretary general had a wonderful speech before a joint session of congress the first time any leader of an international organization has had that honor it was a great day but we haven't finished with our celebrations tim there will be a leaders' meeting at the end of the year in london in december heads of state and government will celebrate nato seventieth anniversary let me put it bluntly the problem is that many member states don't trust donald trump do that his commitment to nato why should they i mean he's done everything he could to undermine trust that he's one hundred percent behind it you know i haven't seen that clearly donald

trump has shaken things up there's no question about it he's gotten off to a bit more than that is not molly allies to sit up and take notice because he was very concerned about the lack of of fair burden sharing inside the alliance and he wanted allies to pay more in his inimitable way he got everybody to pay attention to the necessity of putting more money into their defense budgets that was one of the. it will come out look i'm going to the front thing in a minute but i want to just say that ten days ago it fell to william burns former state department advisor to five u.s. presidents and one of the most respected u.s. diplomats over the last thirty years to point out the terms unilateralism is doing putin's work for him by widening the gap between the u.s. and europe over climate change iran cracks it and nato that's a serious charge from a serious highly placed person of liberalism indeed you're in serious serious but

what's your question why don't you take that seriously you're telling me everything's fine you tell you everything's five but i say elephant in every room listen to he's the one they talk about he keeps casting doubt on article five of the nato whether it's obsolete or not you've heard the statements and you've read them rip orts well look in this headquarters we have important work to do every single day that's why trust is so important exactly trust is broken and that you know each other we are in trouble we are working hard to do what we need to do in terms of running our operations in afghanistan and iraq in terms of continuing to run our operations in k. four in the western balkans in terms of providing for both deterrence and defense and fighting against terrorism in the salon so every day we keep our heads down and keep working yes of course there are differences among nato allies and as i've said mr trump has gotten everybody to sit up and take notice but this is more the true

this is the more just this is more than just differences doug lute former u.s. ambassador to nato said earlier this month this is unprecedented we're at the seventieth anniversary but it's the first time allies have doubted the commitment of the american president nato allies he said see trump as the alliance's most urgent and often most difficult problem well again high. early placed influential well informed indeed indeed doug lou does as well but i don't need to agree with all my friends and colleagues on the outside what i see as how nato is working day and day out to make a difference to our deterrence and defense and that includes fighting terrorism you seem to live in a parallel universe you know i don't know or i don't how do you say paralleled look over the house of representatives they had so little confidence in chumps intentions toward nato that last year they had to pass a law with bipartisan support stating that is us policy to remain

a member of nato prohibiting funds to be used to withdraw from the alliance so little confidence do they have in their president's commitment to meet her a i saw that as a great expression in washington of bipartisan support for nato and i saw it when we were there ten days ago for the seventieth anniversary nato is well supported across both sides of the aisle that's a great thing why why are you going to isaac and not by the president well i don't know about that because you know actions speak louder than words since the president has come into office the united states is spending forty billion dollars more on the european reassurance initiative putting more cop capability and capacity into eastern europe to help in our deterrence and defense tests against russia so. i see the reality and this is at the same time as senior administration officials told the new york times on several occasions last year that the president had said privately he wanted to withdraw from nato

a move let's face it that would destroy the alliance wouldn't it do you think reports like that shedding doubt on america's america's commitment to damage the alliance they do that corrosive. well what i would say to you is that it's perfectly natural for all kinds of issues to be discussed and debated in the white house as elsewhere. what we see is the reality and the practicality of u.s. support a nato ally mccoist said europe can no longer rely on the united states and must take destiny into its own hands so they're not convinced so that the whole idea is to spread confidence in nato and it's some solidity it's not happening is it well you know uncle or merkel of the other european leaders step up and provide more funding and more capability for the alliance that's all to a good thing the scouts of this debate about european defense capability and

european spending on their own defense her a i say that's a great idea it contributes to what nato needs to do it doesn't compete with that let's just talk about the funding issue because this round of defense spending is going on and on who donald trump's endlessly repeated complaint that is nato allies haven't spent enough on defense and oh the us a lot of money for the shortfall which of course is false isn't it because they don't do the us any money do they it's clear that up now said we were having a bit of truth about this as well from our perspective it's really good that sense we face that watershed year of two thousand and fourteen every single ally turned around and stop the cuts in defense spending they don't do us any money do this let's look at exactly when we look at france was going to let's look at what the allies are doing which is spending around are there is truth. what i have to tell

you is the way we look at this question is each ally should be spending two percent of g.d.p. on defense and twenty percent of that amount on acquiring new capability and capacity when i do it if you saw our so the question the fed's investment pledge you never correct these false hudes do you there are forces which donald trump has put on the record which they really that west european. european allies over the u.s. a lot of money for the shortfall the fact is they don't evolved out of the former u.s. ambassador to nato said no one knows the u.s. any money nor is the u.s. spending more because allies are spending less u.s. defense spending is a national decision and is determined by u.s. national security and defense needs true or false well i think it's true for every country across the alliance that they need to spend what it is in their interests to spend and that is on adequate sufficient capability and capacity they need to

get rid of obsolescent equipment they need to modernize they need to pay to train their troops they need to do what is in their interest for their defense and that's the most important thing this is all true is a country important thing and you would think that would be valued a little more in an alliance a military alliance which might take twenty nine countries to war sometime particularly when the commander in chief of the largest force as many country is in nato oh a tremendous amount of money for many years back that simply is not true if we can't even acknowledge that then nato is seriously trouble isn't it i think we have perhaps different views of what the truth is the truth to me is when the allies are acquiring real capability and capacity to contribute to our mutual defense well on the subject of these contributions it was left to germany's defense minister those eleven the lion to rebuke trump i reminded him point in terms it's not just about

cash decency and dependability are also valuable contributions the clear implication being that germany hasn't seen enough of those contributions elsewhere in. decency and dependability i would add on the state of what you've said since you're allowing so many false hoops to stay on the record here oh let's not be silly please but let me say that in fact the defense investment pledge is a knowledge to be made. up of several different components cache yes indeed but also contributions and capabilities and those come in many many forms and in fact germany is a very good example of where they are putting new new facilities on the table we need to do a lot more on military mobility on our ability to reinforce and they are putting in place a new mobility command in ormonde germany great example of how they are contributing to the alliance yes so it's not the one way street that donald trump likes to claim

it is europe contributes enormously to america's own war fighting capabilities doesn't it providing bases transport systems that allow it to project force in other regions where it wouldn't be able to without those nato facilities but that again is never acknowledged as a you never stand up for your. what of course we stand up for europe because europe is over that trumps false words to stay on the record well i think we have been clear about is my amends are clear restaurant telling really doesn't in telling it like it is. in the time we have left i'd like to talk to you about the values of this alliance into clean natives relations with the middle eastern gulf countries you have been conducting dialogues with them for many years nato is out for providing assistance as to participating countries in the areas of security institution building civil military relations this is a very warm nato embrace for several brutal and autocratic countries isn't it i'm talking about egypt bahrain u.a.e. with very questionable human rights records to discuss the clear evidence of human

rights abuses in those countries are your dialogues human rights free. well by no means because in fact when we work with all of those countries they have. the opportunity if somewhat to pick and choose what we talk about but we always bring our values to the table whether we're talking about is i mean criticizing the building integrity fighting against corruption ensuring that everything they do in terms of women peace and security as on the highest standard we always bring our basic values to the table when we talk to any partner and when we work with any ally and does that mean criticizing their human rights records it means working with them effectively that's not the same thing is it i mean would you discuss with bahrain for instance their continued use of civilian and military courts to convict and imprison peaceful dissenters who are from the usa which is accused of

maintaining a sustained assault on freedom of expression association i ask because they're frequently here they frequently visit nato headquarters there wined and dined presumably but you don't ask any of these unpleasant questions while you're a vital to the woman i was asian that purports to have value yours. a lot about what takes place for me if i'm wrong for one thing i'm wrong that wining and dining is rather rare and how we interact with our partners but so much on tact what in fact does happen is that we portray the core values around which the alliance is built and everything we do with in a day in day out basis is meant to build build the recognition and the acceptance of those values in a kind of organic way so of course the discussion can take account of everything that is happening day in day out in those countries but it does focus on building integrity it's good to have you on the program i was close and thank you very much .

thanks. to our. cut.

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