sometimes more exciting than real life. but if there's no escape. we are in kampala uganda vis is the capital and the rain gods have opened on us but guess what the show must go on because today we're going to be discussing a very fiery topic here gender parity or lack thereof it is in this country that the minister of tourism suggested that women should be added on to the list of attractions for tourists that garnered a lot of reactions and we're going to get some of them right here so let's open this discussion with i suppose we'll come to you patricia what gives what is the

current situation in uganda in a surprise egalitarian islam is concerned i mean i think of uganda is a lot like. you know it's very mature so this is a country where a minister can get on t.v. and see that women are tourist attractions just for the same country where. telling women that because they're educated. it's a sim country where an m.p. can get up and say women need to be displayed into by their husbands you can i deeply entrenched in the patriarchy i think that the few feminists who exist in this country and exist loudly are met with constant attacks so i guess in a lot of ways we sort of a long way to go ok you say that you have a long way to go but not everybody thinks of these actually and you resign to go anywhere monday you say that there's no need for changing anything society was created like this by our forefathers for reasons. i don't have as many of changing anything but i'm saying. disputed which the women want things changed is what

actually is very very alarming and of course we all know that women they played the role of making a home for example i thought of them in but only one woman so implying that the whole me and that has been the position of that now would come to be. a must be sure and that's what we have been. breaking because the running go from there ok let me get to the broadcast we're hearing monday here say all this is just a whole lot but lou we don't need to be getting into these conversations and i want to understand how much does a ugandan culture play into this kind of thinking to a large extent it does. for me my my opinion is basically the balance the balance between those who want to my suspicion we want to mass question and whether we really understand it because we were talking about in my space show no women in parliament yes we support the kitchen of the godchild for instance but then you do

get the girl child to go where to go somewhere maybe to into some career development or something or to become a journalist like myself and when you become a journalist you forget about the roles of a woman may be having a family or something how do you balance the two for instance you're married how do you balance the respect for your husband and your career. and here in uganda it's not unusual to find women being extremely weak it's part of culture so where do you find this balance between who we were who we still are and who we want to be i don't see any violence. there's no violence whatsoever what i'm seeing to be quite frank is men behaving like scared to children and women being treated like children by the men how do you mean men are behaving like scared little children. this is how i want things this is how things used to be this. is your role i feel

threatened by you for example when you have male ministers having the power to stand up and say ok so no i'm going to put. that woman who wear miniskirts it is now illegal because it's got such a way cause men to behave like this are you to us i mean monday i'm going to come to you just now i want to come to a fat boy who by the way is really not at all fat. to ask about this things he is saying men are just throwing tantrums here just in secure how do you feel about that essentially i think change is ok but if it comes to quickly i think some people may have trouble adapting to these new changes and who is having problem with the pace of the change i think society in general because the way families are organized will have to change the way the workplace is organized has changed and things are changing gradually so for them to be complaining that women are having it rough they're not given these opportunities something which will do you live in it's like they're rolling out the red carpet for women doing everything possible to

make life comfortable for women all of the women who are here complaining about patriarchy all were sent to school by fathers who are happy and proud to send their daughters to school i feel like the only telling half the story and i don't like the tendency to always blame men for all of the problems they see this world and so to them i'm saying ok chill things are good for women and they can get better every time ok hold on i have to i have to introduce hassen here because he is actually a feminist i think i would say how do you feel about the claims that fatboy is making that the women are constantly blaming the men we need to understand that one such a key benefits man unless we start to ten men that the patriarchy that benefits you or somehow it's you know not to think about transforming themselves at the moment of just being creating an overview but i want to get into. the very specifics of

this everyday sexism and i think i want to begin with you monday i'll come to you i know you have a point but can you tell me in practical sense what it means for you to be a woman in uganda it means that my my body is not my i feel like my body is not my especially in regards to street harassment terrifies me any man can come up to me is entitle to come up to me and ask me what i'm doing why i'm doing it why i'm there. i'm being in fun tell lies every single. even right now he's there in front of me if i put it in terms of the leadership that we have so last year i think you proved the minister of public service issued a new dress code for women that's extremely oppressive you said something like the one nine hundred twenty s. women cannot show cleavage women cannot have sleeveless tops women should not wear anything above the knee which aggression by the way we should specify that this is for women in public service when. public service if you walk in the national hospital is any any public service then this is for you so it was one of the real

question is why you know because for me just like what women should dress like this some men don't like this woman don't repute men don't harass they don't talk to men like this is the logical the logical steps that cannot then control them i mean. ok i think i want to go back to the point that lindsay was making that this sort of sexism is not only social cultural but it's also systemic it exists in law it exists in organizations how do you react to that i mean you can argue with that my point is simple is that i think if you have a chip on your shoulder and you think that the world is out to get you you're going to view every obstacle that you face as a result of some nefarious actors or in the ferias class of people that are trying to put you down in this case men which is what activists will say the feminists and i feel like this is unfair there's so many women that have succeeded who have gone on to do great things there are many terrific. brilliant business women in this

country brilliant women in parliament brilliant women in all walks of life in every profession look it's a double edged sword there are women who do take advantage of their femininity to know what ways to get lax treatment you know they're going to smile at their supervisor and hope that he treats them a little bit more leniently there are some women that will try to date men at a high level some men abuse of power to gain sexual access to women other women utilize their power to advance their careers ok it's just the world we live in joyce are you using your sex your female wiles to to to advance in your career is this what is happening is there any truth to what fatboy saying yes there is truth to what you saying some women have ignorantly done that some women hate but let me ask you why do you think the feel the need to if. that's what i was going to talk about because the fed does taking advantage but some in some cases someone has no

option it is not the only option he lives oh ok there's a lot of nothing here there's a lot of nothing here so like i don't know like how you think that the plane is leveled just because there are women that are like taking advantage of the fact that they're women do you understand that they have been told that this is what they need to do like it is not fair like it is not enough for me to just be intelligent to be really hard working i have to open my legs for someone to sleep with me for me to be on the same level as you ok so i'm going to come back to monday because this question is actually in direct contradiction to what you said that some of the cultural norms which we have normalized was like ok is that some of the cultural norms we have normalised may be normal but they're not right in africa we look at the woman's body i was doing some cred that is like when when a minister or public service or what you're going to comes up with the police and say look here we must be seen to dress. because they look at the one's body as. and

if you continue but now if you you're very comfortable with exposing what we we look at dia then we may not see minimal because rukia my sister was saying but doesn't that mean that the body belongs to the man and he has a foreign he learns you belong to society oh yes yes yes. no no no no i have i have to remove the microphone right there when men do not belong to society and. to themselves to themselves and just let them show them to them give an example let them give an example in the african sitting we don't live in isolation we believe in the clans we be we believe you know then lastly i she did really talk about the issue of the dress quickly i strongly support that he took up i should be book about that i mean i've behaving like a ninety year old receiving i think that is the misrepresentation fact in the

african sitting a man is the protector of these our community when you see things that when you see things that you hold dear somebody missing up with them remember that their own place in its own well well well well well well well ok hold on hold on let's get this conversation i know it's getting heated but i want you to respond directly to what he say you know they're high five ing right now because they're like this is what we believe in because it's still kind of like the african sitting with the concepts and i would like to put it to him that the african sitting on african heritage and culture and history disputed on the principle of oneness that essentially means that men and women are equal was the issue of discord and what and what we need to accept that when a system that subdues women and when someone comes up with guidelines of discord it's it if it's a demonstration of control over women's bodies that is that is not that good.

protected the what if the system just trying to show that you are listening we have to control you in discord in the wide that's why even for salaries even for salaries because assistants have dues women so those they get to keep us do not think that women didn't deserve equal pay like men it's just the system we're living in so people become victims of the system and get to suffer because of the system and unless we dismount of that system our own warped agenda a quality studio it's ok i want to hear from patricia africans in a country so this is not a free country should know like values and dogma because this is not like homogeneous group every single group comes up with everything whatever cultures work for the second the culture evolves because culture is made by people not the other way i won't understand so if your forefathers believe that women are less than you often enough to believe the same things and we're telling you this system doesn't work for us and we will change it at all costs because for twenty i don't know how many thousands of years we have been telling you this system is not walking and you have been rejecting that and i think for me the insistence on

african traditional societies whatever that even looks like when men are also evolving you're not hunting the same way your forefathers was hunting but somehow you expect us to maintain the same rules and likewise and because it has changed for the gender roles you in the fun for the it that's absolutely like you can expect us to be in the same system twenty one thousand years later i think a particular i think that was a great argument by patricia how do you respond to that fat boy well yeah i am of view that culture does change society just does change and it's it's kind of inevitable and you know to my friend you know who wants to sort of maintain things the way they are i feel like he's fighting a losing battle because changing global trends economic trends will necessitate that society will have to change in the way that it is structured in in the way that rules are assigned to the various genders or if even roll should be assigned at all and just to speak on the issue of. you know dress codes and modesty codes i

wish to inform my friends here that the ladies that have to the biggest promoters and enforcers of modesty codes actually the women trend recalled in your youth leaving the house at fifteen sixteen and maybe a skimpy skirt does like all you're going out ok be back by nine but it's your mom saying excuse me where you going just like that i don't know what am i lying or are in the workplace difficult it will be female colleagues older ones typically who will be very critical of how the younger women are dressed why because they view them as competition ok well there's no i don't think you know that that a lot of no's had a lot of no's he enjoys let me come to you james is actually talking about is true it is true that in most cases it is the older women or women in soko of vision like myself if a female if a female reporter came to office in red jeans a different in the us pam why the putting one like that especially segue into parliament where these it just going to ask the same question yes i would if his

trousers were too tight yes i was buttons were after him i would buy the thing is is about the system before it is the mother who would ask why are you going like that you're going to embarrass me that kind of thing that needs to change also it's obviously if i didn't give you the truth because yes you see and yes he was so dangerous that it creates sub processes so we cannot be unsealed happy that it is the women who control themselves this is how bad the patrick a system is that it has created so prisons where you find women or prison for women so we can celebrate and come up about that you know we can and we need to see how do reaching that system remember this is the thing i think that if you look at oppression as a systemic institutionalized i mean i just asked him i said you're a black mime and for those of years they told you because based on the color of your skin that you were inferior butt. right now if

a white man came and told you you're inferior to me because of the pull of your skin you would rebel right but for thousands of years you also still believe the same thing so for me it's a very clear indication that they understand the systemic nature of how violent the systems are but because patriarchy for the most part appears to benefits men. then they're just like ok well you know sexism racism yeah that's bad but you know sexism well but women need to just be a little bit more patient would you have been patients if like you said you know what your let's just say ok i'm negotiating with you please let me be kind to you know you would very quickly come to that narrative and it's the same thing because sexism is a systemic as violent as racism is up to this image and generally all this oppressive systems work and the idea that women like the one thing one woman internalize because if for all your life your mother told you to keep you safe you must wear a long skirt you must wear a long thing you then you puff those same things women are not telling these young

girls to cover up because of competition because they're afraid of them because they know they have seen what happens how men react this is not the system works and this is how you because it's all right so i want to come to you monday because you've been told that you are being selective in what you want to change and what you don't want to change and because you're a beneficiary of patriarchy you have absolutely no motivation or desire to change something that you're benefiting from the change that you're going to stand up just to. bring everybody on board she was saying that women must not negotiate. one of negotiations i'm sorry sounds to me like you're giving me mixed stories here on the one side here saying we want the culture to remain as it is this is who we are this is who we were. now you're saying what i'm saying the change what i see what i'm saying is that the must not be over. if there is a change if something want to achieve even if it calls for is harmful when you look at the. most of the. news most of them.

is that. women thinking that. africa is a prison in action i don't see them how we're going to do that just because protecting. its predicament. i mean for all my. time with you for once the location was well done let's see how i'm getting somewhere let's let's let's let's go through let's go through those questions one at a time you say the system is not oppressive it is protecting women protecting them against what against anything harmful. only for one second of patriarchy you just stood here and you told me that women belong to society we do not have a sense of independence is in the world also many. other women we all i think we all belong to that we. just said i need those facilities that give us rules to give

men on the view today is so monday is arguing that you know the laws that are put in place are meant to protect us they're meant to avoid us from diluting our culture i just want to come to these ladies here because we were speaking earlier and you said something interesting so in this case for example the graphic law which says a woman scouts can only be up to a certain point is not meant to protect you know there's so many people that have been wearing long themes and still good trips and feel good sincerely like harassed that is not the just being a how come we men that just go do something that women are not for them in what is this all going like it doesn't make sense ok so i do have something to say yes i think it all goes back to women are meant to be seen or known tired why is what we wear so important why don't you want to listen to what we've got to say why don't you want to listen to import to our society why is it so important how we dress what are you protecting us from from yourselves so on. throw yourselves and maybe

one tough to look at what i wear maybe you'll have to look at what i have to say and what i think ok now that we're talking about women being controlled in terms of their body isn't what they dress we're now in the wave of the me too movement and there's been a complaint that this movement while it is appreciated and very much needed has made men the other the violent one how do you feel about that is it possible to have a balanced discussion about equity without victimizing the man do you feel victimized when i listen to some of the rhetoric being you know put out there by feminists it almost does sound like they're demonizing all men the overwhelming majority of men try to be good and try to be reasonable they're the psychopaths out there that will disrespect women in valley women of course they are there but i think when i listen to what the me too movement is saying it's like hey all men you all the something wrong with you you need to fix this laying the blame all the feet of all men can you imagine how you as a woman might feel if i was in some way. assaulted or violated by one

woman and i made it the fault of all women i don't think you would like it you would write rightly tell me hey it's not all women i can get patricia here first of all i think that's just like james being dishonest because this is a favorite when you look at the percentages of women who actually lie about sexual assault about things like one percent not going to let me tell you there's a lot petitions happen if you haven't right a judge right now in the us who is actually still managed to pass like all the barriers despite the fact that those three women who came out and said this month. i'm going to let me tell you what the something should see me in actually because what do you mean do i record you when you when you type my ask why we called you let me come back let me come to you hasn't because i think this is pertinent for you as a male feminist how do you feel about what factoid touched on that these movements can sometimes demonize men. these movements are good for us to understand how we

can work with men to express their sexuality in respectable ways. that is the most significant thing out of this movement without looking at the advantages of men and you know men want to stay in the privileged privileged position nothing should gender but how i live my life they like to protect but to me to movement is giving us evidence that their women express their sexuality has to be questioned because you cannot express your sexuality by six right harassing people they knew that you money between us disappears linsey have been quiet for a while i want to come to you for these global movements of women and feminism they translate they always translate in local settings. absolutely i feel like men like football my friend here i don't know if you have eyes and ears i don't know if they're walking because everywhere i look there is evidence of min of using women the second last police report that came out defendant was

a second highest crime in uganda one in three women have experienced sexual harassment at least once in their lifetime so menacing not all of us and we think we don't know who the good one is do you have stickers how do we know that you're good if you feel like you're being unfairly harassed but not all of you are doing wrong things missing talk to your mates men sit in buys look at men tapping other women's asses look at the mix saying very explicit discussing things about women and keep right but somehow feminists are coming for us if you feel like not all of you are bad then begin to do the walk to change the next and ok ok i think i think please please please please i believe that we could be here for days talking about the issues that obviously multi-layered there evidently very complex but my question to the people standing here is do you think uganda will ever be egalitarian is that even a wish for the for the country how do you propose going about that fact let me start with you i think. as. well as the government of the country all of us focus

on building wealth and lifting the country out of poverty i feel like you've got to terry and his him will simply arise as as an effect of that and this is what we've seen in many western countries where the industrial revolution with greater wealth created in the world that's greater opportunities created greater options available for impoverished families where previously they might have had to keep their daughters at home or high the most but now they say hey we can afford to send more girls to school and that is precisely what we've seen enrollment of those in primary school is almost par if not slightly over that of boys performing boys in terms of results i feel like we're already moving in that trajectory and i would only urge my sister's here to be happy about that so attack each other or be antagonistic all right egalitarian tarion using in uganda is this a possibility is this of a going to be a reality i think it's a possibility but it has to happen when both parties involved like in families you grow up knowing that you and your brother equal so what changes when you watch in

the world why do you say oh no i can't i can't do this my wife asked to do that when you know when you were growing up you were doing the same things and what is the role of men in creating this equality that we have such as an ideal for men and to be part of the solution to achieve gender equality men need to accept to share power and to share decision making and men need to do to have respect for relationships that is they have are ok. i'm not even sure if i should come to you because you might you might open another can of worms but monday i have to ask you is there ever going to be equality in uganda. when the what i just want to say is that if they were equally to come only before they be sure mary enough said well we've had a very good number of comments here today i think. this is definitely one of the most heated debates we've had so far and we absolutely enjoyed it please do let us

know what you think and thank you for watching.

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