people you're not going to want to miss. sixty. there is no. manager. you know the banks. and so watch the language of the bank. speaking the truth. matters. we are in kampala uganda vis is a capital and the rain gods have opened on us but guess what the show must go on because today we're going to be discussing a very fiery topic here gender parity or lack thereof it is in this country that the minister of tourism suggested that women should be added on to the list of

attractions for tourists that garnered a lot of reactions and we're going to get some of them right here so let's open this discussion with i suppose we'll come to you patricia what gives what is the current situation in uganda in a surprise egalitarian islam is concerned i mean i think that uganda is a lot like. you know it's very nature so this is a country where a minister can get on t.v. and see that women are tourist attractions just for the same country where. telling women that because they're educated. it's a sim country where an m.p. can get up and say women need to be displayed into by their husbands uganda is deeply entrenched in the patriarchy i think that the few feminists who exist in this country and exist largely are met with constant attacks so i guess in a lot of ways we sort of a long way to go ok you say that you have a long way to go but not everybody thinks that these actually any reason to go anywhere. munday you say that there's no need for changing anything society was

created like this by our forefathers for reasons. i don't suppose many of changing anything but i'm saying that the speed at which the women want things changed is what actually is very very alarming and of course we all know that women they believe in the role of making a home for example if i were them and. so in playing with the who has been the position of my would come to this will they must be sure and that's what we're. breaking because they're running go from there ok let me just broadcast we're going monday here say all this is just a hall of blue we don't need to be getting into these conversations and i want to understand how much does a ugandan culture play into this kind of thinking to a large extent it does. for me my my opinion is basically the balance the balance between those who want to my specialty and we want to aspiration and

whether we really understand it because we were talking about in my space showing that women empowerment yes we support the diffusion of the godchild for instance but then you do get the girl child to go where to go somewhere maybe to into some career development or something or to become a journalist like myself and when you become a journalist you forget about the other roles of a woman may be having a family or something how do you balance the two for instance you're married how do you balance the respect for your husband a new career. and here in uganda it's not unusual to find women being extremely weak it's part of culture so where do you find this balance between who we were who we still are and who we want to be i don't see any violence. there's no violence whatsoever what i'm seeing to be quite frank is men behaving like scared to children and. women being treated like children by the men how do you mean men of

behaving like scared little children. this is how i want things this is how things used to be this is your role i feel threatened by you for example when you have male ministers having the power to stand up and say ok so now i'm going to put here in this anti pornography law that women who wear miniskirts it is now illegal because it's got such a way or cause men to behave like this are you to us i mean monday i'm going to come to you just now i want to come to a fat boy who by the way is really not at all fat. to ask about this things he is saying men are just throwing tantrums you're just and secure how do you feel about that essentially i think change is ok but if it comes to quickly i think some people may have trouble adapting to these new changes and who is having problem with the pace of the change i think society in general because of the way families are organized will have to change the way the workplace is organized has changed

and things are changing gradually so for them to be complaining that women are having it rough they're not given these opportunities something which will do you live in it's like they're rolling out the red carpet for women doing everything possible to make life comfortable for women all of the women who are here complaining about patriarchy all were sent to school by fathers who are happy and proud to send their daughters to school i feel like the only telling half the story and i don't like the tendency to always blame men for all of the problems they see this world in so to them i'm saying chill out things are good for women and they can get better even time ok hold on i have to i have to introduce pass on here because he is actually a feminist i think i would say how do you feel about the claims that fat boy is making that the women are constantly blaming the men we need to understand that one such a cuban if it's man unless we start to ten men that. actually you could have benefits

you also had you do not start to think about transforming themselves at the moment to just been creating an overview but i want to get into the very specifics of this everyday sexism and i think i want to begin with you monday i'll come to you i know you have a point but can you tell me in practical sense what it means for you to be a woman in uganda it means that my my body is not my i feel like my body is not especially in regards to street harassment terrifies me any man can come up to me is entitled to come up to me and ask me what i'm doing why i'm doing it why i'm there. i'm being in fun tell lies every single. even i know he's there in front of me if i put it in terms of the leadership that we have so last year i think you probably the minister of public service issued a new dress code for women that's extremely oppressive something like the one nine hundred twenty s. women cannot show cleavage women cannot have sleeveless tops women should not wear

anything. which aggression by the way we should specify that this is for women in public service when we have a public service if you walk in the national hospital any any public service then this is for you so this is one of the real question is why you know because for them it's just like what women should dress like this some men don't like this woman don't repeat men don't harass they don't talk to men like this of this is the logical the logical sex the kind of the control. i mean. ok i think i want to go back to the point that lindsay was making that this sort of sexism is not only social cultural but it's also systemic it exists in law it exists in organizations how do you react to that i mean you can argue with that my point is simple is that i think if you have a chip on your shoulder and you think that the world is out to get you you're going to view every obstacle that you face as a result of some nefarious actors or in the class of people that are trying to put . don in this case men which is what activists will sink the feminists and i feel

like this is unfair there's so many women that have succeeded who have gone on to do great things there are many terrific brilliant business women in this country brilliant women in parliament brilliant women in all walks of life in every profession look it's a double edged sword there are women who do take advantage of their femininity to know what way to get lots treatment you know they're going to smile at the supervisor and hope that he treats them a little bit more leniently there are some women that will try to date men at a high level some men abuse of power to gain sexual access to women other women utilize their power to advance their careers ok it's just the world we live in joyce are you using your sexual your female wiles to to to advance in your career is this what is happening is there any truth to what fatboy say yes that is true to want to st some women have ignorantly done that some women hate but let me ask you

why do you think they feel the need to if. that's what it's going to talk about because it's. taking advantage but some in some cases someone has no option it is not the only option and lives oh ok there's a lot of nothing here there's a lot of slapping here so like i don't you know like how you think that the plane is leveled just because they're women that have like taking advantage of the fact that they're women do you understand that they have been told that this is what they need to do like it is not fair like it is not enough for me to just be intelligent to be really hard working i have to open my legs for someone to sleep with me for me to be on the same level as you ok so i'm going to come back to monday because this question is actually in direct contradiction to what you said that some of the cultural norms which we have normalize ones like and things that some of the cultural norms we have normalised may be normal but they're not right in africa we look at. the woman's body i was doing some cred that is a win win

a minister or public service or when you're going to comes up with the police and say look here women must be seen to brace because they look at the one's body as. an african to you know if you you're a very comfortable with exposing what we we look at dia then we may not see not only because rukia my sister was saying but doesn't that mean that the body belongs to the man and he has authority on names you will be lumped society oh yes yes yes . no no no no i have to remove the microphone right there where men do not belong to society and. even to themselves to them to themselves and let them tell them for them give an example let me give an example in the african city we don't live in isolation you believe in the clans we live in we believe you know our people sleeping the lustily i she did really talk about the issue of the driscoll and

i strongly support that he took up i should talk about that i mean i've behaving like. yelled receiving i think that is a misrepresentation fact in the african sitting a man is the perfect viz i community therefore when you see things that when you see things that you hold dear somebody missing that was the him remember spend their own space in its own well well well well well well well ok hold on hold on let's get going with this conversation i know it's getting heated but i wanted to respond directly to what his say you know they're high five ing right now because they're like this is what we believe in man because it's to provide the african said to move to consider i would like to put it to him that the african sitting on african heritage and culture and history this beauty around the principle of oneness that essentially means that men and women are equal was the issue of discord and what and what we need to accept that when a system that's abused mean. and when someone comes out with guidelines of discord

it's. a demonstration of control over women's bodies that is that is not that good is a protected the what is the system just trying to show that you are listening we have to control you in discord in the wide that's why even for salaries even for salaries because assistants abuse women so those are the good keypads do not think that women didn't deserve equal pay unlike men it's just the system we're living in so people become victims of the system and get to suffer because of the system and unless we dismount of that system our long walk to gender equality studio it says ok i want to hear from patricia africans in a country so this is not a free country should know like values and not about because there is no like homogeneous group every single group comes up with every one of our cultures look for that second the culture evolved because culture is made by people not the other way i won't understand so if your forefathers believe that women are less than you often enough to believe the same things and we're telling you this system doesn't

work for us and we will change it at all costs because for twenty i don't know how many thousands of years we have been telling you this system is not walking and you have been rejecting that and i think for me the insistence on african traditional societies whatever that even looks like when men are also evolving you're not hunting the same way your forefathers were hunting but somehow you expect us to maintain the same rules and likewise and because it has changed for other gender roles you in the fun so the it that's absolutely like you can expect us to be in the same system twenty one thousand years later i became a dick and i think that was a great argument by patricia how do you respond to that fat boy well yeah i am of view that culture does change society just does change and it's it's kind of inevitable and you know to my friend you know who wants to sort of maintain things the way they are i feel like he's fighting a losing battle because changing global trends economic trends will necessitate.

that society will have to change in the way that it is structured in in the way that rules are assigned to the various genders always even rules should be assigned at all and just to speak on the issue of. of you know dress codes and modesty codes i wish to inform my friends here that the ladies that have to the biggest promoters and enforcers of modesty codes are actually women tran recalled in your youth leaving the house at fifteen sixteen and maybe a skimpy skirt are you going out ok be back by nine but it's your mom saying excuse me where you going just like that i want all my life i want are in the workplace difficult it will be female colleagues older ones typically who will be very critical of how the younger women are dressed why because they view them as competition ok well there's no don't make it that that a lot of no's had a lot of no's yeah joyce let me come to you james is actually talking about is true it is true that in most cases it is the older women or women in soko vision like myself if a female if a female reporter came to office in red jeans

a different in the us them why the putting on like that especially for going to parliament where these are just called us camilla i think the same question yes i would if his trousers were too tight yes i was buttons were up to here i would look at but the thing is it's about the system before it is the mother who would ask why are you going like that you're going to embarrass me that kind of thing that needs to change also it's not easy if i didn't give you the truth because history of us has so dangerous that it creates sub processes so we cannot be unsealed happy that he does the women who control themselves this is how bad the patrick a system is that it has created some prisons where you find women opening for the women so we can instead of britain come up about that you know we can and we need to see how do we change the system or i mean this is the thing i think that if you look at all. question as

a systemic institutionalized i mean i just asked him i said you're a black man on for thousands of years they told you because based on the call of the. inferior but right now if a white man came and told you you're inferior to me. right but for thousands of years you also still believe the same thing so for me it's a very creative keisha and that they understand the systemic nature of how violent the systems are but because patriarchy for the most part appears to benefits men yeah then they're just like ok well you know sexism racism yeah that's bad but you know sexism well but women need to just be a little bit more patient would you have been patient if like you said you know what you're let's just say ok i'm negotiating with you please let me be kind to you know you would very quickly come to that narrative and it's the same thing because sexism is a systemic as violent as racism is. generally all this oppressive systems work and the idea that women are like the one thing one human internalized because if for

all your life your mother told you to keep you safe you must wear a long skirt you must wear a long thing you then you put those same things women are not telling these young girls to cover up because of competition because they're afraid of them because they know they have seen what happens how men react this is not the system works and this is how you because it's all right so i want to come to you monday because you've been told that you are being selective in what you want to change and what you don't want to change and because you're a beneficiary of patriarchy you have absolutely no motivation or desire to change something that you're benefiting from the change that. brings everybody she was saying that women must know. one of negotiations i'm sorry it sounds to me like you're giving me mixed stories here on the one side here saying we want the culture to remain as it is this is who we are this is who we were. now you're saying what i'm saying don't change what i see what i'm saying is that the conscious. must not be diluted over. if there is

a change if something want to achieve even if it all strays home full when you look at the. most of the norms and values most of them make. is that. women thinking that. africa's within them actually i don't see them. looking them it is predictable who are. you going to i mean for all my. difference is ok it was well done let's see how we're getting somewhere let's let's let's let's go through let's go through those questions one at a time you say the system is not oppressive it is protecting women protecting them against what against anything harmful. for one second of patriarchy you just stood here and told me that women belong to society we do not

have a sense of independence in the world also men belong to the ideas of the women we all i think we all belong to. those that give us rules to give men. so monday is arguing that you know the laws that are put in place are meant to protect us they're meant to avoid us from diluting our culture i just want to come to these ladies here because we were speaking earlier and you said something interesting so in this case for example the antipodal graphic law which says a woman scouts can only be up to a certain point is not meant to protect you know that so many people that have been wearing long things and still got ripped and feel good sexually harassed that is not the just being how come it's for their women the just go do something that women are not for them in what is this all going like they mix in ok so i do have something to say yes i think it all goes back to women are meant to be seen and tired why is what will. so important why don't you want to listen to what we've got

to say why don't you want to listen to our input to our society why is it so important how we dress what are you protecting us from from yourselves so control yourselves and maybe we won't have to look at what i where maybe you have to look at what i have to say and what i think ok now that we're talking about women being controlled in terms of their body isn't what they dress we're now in the wave of the me too movement and there's been a complaint that this movement while it is appreciated and very much needed has made men the other the violent one how do you feel about that is it possible to have a balanced discussion about equity without victimizing the man do you feel victimized when i listen to some of the rhetoric being you know put out there by feminists it almost does sound like they're demonizing all men the overwhelming majority of men try to be good and try to be reasonable they're the psychopaths out there that will disrespect women in valley women of course they are there but i think when i listen to what the me too movement is saying it's like hey all men you all this something

when we do you need to fix this laying the blame at all the feet of all men can you imagine how you as a woman might feel if i was in some way. violated by one woman and i made it the fault of all women i don't think you would like it you would write rightly tell me hey it's not all women ok i can hear patricia here first of all i think that's just like james being dishonest because this is the thing right when you look at the percentages of women who actually lie about sexual assault about things like one percent let me tell you there's a lot petitions happen if you haven't right a judge right now in the u.s. who is actually still managed to pass like all the barriers despite the fact that those three women who came out and said this month assaulted are not going to let me tell you what the substance of the simian actually because what do you mean do i record you when you when you talk my asked why we called you let me come back let me come to you hasn't because i think this is personal for you. the male feminist

yes how do you feel about what factoid touched on that these movements sometimes demonize men these movements are good for us to understand how we can work with men to express their sexuality in respectable ways. that is the most significant thing out of this movement without looking at the advantages of men and you know men want to stay in the privileged privileged position nothing should jane about how i live my life to lead to protect but the need to movement is giving us evidence that their women express their sexuality has to be questioned because you cannot express your sexuality basics right harassing people they knew that you money between us disappears lindsey you've been quiet for a while i want to come to you for these global movements about women and feminism that they translate they always translate in local settings. absolutely i feel like men like football my friend here i don't know if you have eyes and ears i

don't know if they're walking because everywhere i look there is evidence of min of using women the second last police report that came out defendant was the second highest crime in uganda one in three women have experienced at least once in their lifetime so menacing not all of us and we think we don't know who the good one is do you have stickers how do we know that you're good if you feel like you're being unfairly harassed but not all of you are doing wrong things with thing talk to your mates men sit in bars look at men tapping other women look at them at saying very explicit discussing things about women and keep quiet right but somehow feminists are coming for us if you feel like not all of you are bad then begin to do the walk to change the next and ok ok i think i think please please please please i believe that we could be here for days talking about the issues that obviously multi-layered there evidently very complex but my question to the people standing here is do you think uganda will ever be egalitarian is that even

a wish for the for the country how do you propose going about that football let me start with you i think. as long as the government and the country all of us focus on building wealth and lifting the country out of poverty i feel like you gather terry and his him will simply arise as a side effect of that and this is what we've seen in many western countries with the industrial revolution with greater wealth created in the world thus greater opportunities created greater options available for impoverished families where previously they might have had to keep their daughters at home for my the most earlier but now they say hey we can afford to send more girls to school and that is precisely what we've seen enrollment of those in primary school is almost par if not slightly over that of boys performing boys in terms of results i feel like we're already moving in that for just three and i would only urge my sisters here to be happy about that so let's attack each other or be antagonistic all right egalitarian tarion using in uganda is this a possibility is this of a going to be

a reality i think it's a possibility but it has to happen when both parties involved like in families you grow up knowing that you and your brother equal so what changes when you go out in the world why do you say oh no i can't i can't do this my wife asked to do that when you know when you were growing up you were doing the same thing on what is the role of men in creating this equality that's we have such as an ideal men to be part of the solution to achieve gender equality men need to accept to share power and to share decision making and men need to do to have respectful relationships that is they have are ok. i'm not even sure if i should come to you because i know you might you might open another can of worms but monday i have to ask you is there ever going to be equality in uganda jendayi quote when the what i just want to say is that if they were equally it can only be funny that picture not

. enough said well we've had a very good number of comments here today. i think this is definitely one of the most heated debates we've had so far and we absolutely enjoyed it fees to let us know what you think and thank you for watching.

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. for sweet starts many seconds on g.w. . player . this is news live from berlin a shootout in sri lanka leaves more than a dozen people dead including children overseas raid the home of a suspected terrorist linked to the easter bombings using explosives i ask you know forms and flags we'll hear from our correspondent in between lockout and also coming up signs of progress for protestors in sudan demanding

a return to civilian rule they say they've helped productive talks with the country's ruling military council protesters in the capital khartoum have been telling us.