this world. even though. we can make every attempt. at. the trial of cattle and separatist leaders over their failed independence has laid bare some stark divisions in spanish society not least over the justice system my guest this week here in madrid is spain's foreign minister years a burrell how does he answer the charge that the trials are fundamentally unfair. because a bar of welcome to conflict. last year

a lady called come a fokker was the president of the catalan parliament she was arrested charged with rebellion when she was interviewed last december she was spending 15 hours a day in her cell in solitary confinement is this really the image of spain that you want to show the rest of the world. judicially decision. to hold. people under control another to avoid them to escape from the justice like others a grandmother. in a prison convicted of nothing by those enjoying joys the presumption of innocence before her donald. everybody who prevented jail enjoys the presumption of innocence instead of 30 percent of the people who are preventing the tension

it's hard not to see her incarceration as the action of a vindictive state setting out to punish defendants they should. be enjoying this presumption of innocence. that a presumption of innocence has nothing to vote with your on record as saying that you wish some of those in pretrial detention were 3. times said exactly that they would had. the judge could have found another way of preventing them from escaping the action of justice you said there were other methods that could have been used you said there were other methods that could help the beauty of so this was unfair treatment. in your view though. you would have preferred to see them out of pretrial and the other you know another thing the main me say thing that they haven't said. understand to national cording to them the use of pretrial

detention is justified only when there is no alternative measure which would insure the interests of justice you have said there are alternative measures so it is unfair well look you know the judge has decided. these measures because he things it has to so i am not going to. decide in the plate of judges in spain judges in that they take their decision by their own i understand that already and if maybe mr put them on had an escape maybe they would have taken other kind of measures do you know that with the man and other has been escaping the act of justice you know that there are very few people who don't know that or listen to ban them explain that but it's not your role you tell me the courts are independent but it's not your role to turn a blind eye to serious questions and doubts about the way your judicial system is

functioning isn't it because you came to power your government came to power promising to transform. space my point to you is keeping people in. lockdown in solitary confinement for 15 hours a day. solitary confinement 15 hours a day 63 year old grandmother convicted of nothing. excuse me you say convicted of nothing do you know about the conviction of this case i start thinking that you don't anything about it she hasn't been convicted of anything as she's been charged but she has no charge convicted well let's. stop it we're going to stop this interview and the same. if you continue like these are you stop it. and you are not going to have a thing me going to be wearing me. so you win me trying

to police no i'm not a subject of any kind of inquiry or from your side i understand that the right questions and let me talk if not you stop it absolutely ok i just. look. you came to power to modernize and. last year the e.u. score card which measured public trust in the independence of national courts and judges put spain in 23rd place on the list of member countries below portugal hungary and romania how do you feel about that spain is the ranking among the 20 best democracies in divorce. with. no. need of. the economist.

i think be classified. as a being. but the truth is when it comes to the charges of rebellion against the defendants there has been a substantial outcry both here and abroad present that last november more than $100.00 legal experts in spain signed an open letter condemning the charge of rebellion in the council didn't move you why don't you lead the judges made their work i'm asking your opinion. in spain. how do you think that the decision of the german court which refused to extradite the former catalan leader. on the charge of rebellion how do you think that has affected the credibility of the case against him because the german court said the amount of

violence required for the charge of high treason which is the closest they have to rebellion was not seen. in breach of the public peace they said does not apply because the mark was only involved in carrying out the independents. ringback will be the german judge. and it's a blow to your case. what you define. the course with the court was basically saying that your central charge against the catalan defendants doesn't hold up. but i don't know how. the situation in spain but who has to judge this pain scored. early suggestions here in spain that they're not going to get a fair trial the professor of constitutional law at civilian. royo said i would like to be wrong but the way in which the october 1st case has

proceeded so far inevitably points to a guilty verdict the trial will be a farce even though they will abide by all the legal procedures while it's been helped the verdict has already been written so chilling the accusations are him. just that. just that when you learn agree with the association of judges for democracy about the appointment of some of the leading figures in this case there is very much a bias. look for the people who criticizes the judges i can tell you know other people who has. there may be other views but i mean there's been a damaging criticism house and moved it to a 3rd time i am answering you this same pans in spain judiciary is in power let them do their work. the moment

accused you of contributing to the increase in hate he said when you were appointed foreign minister this gesture by a had in mind in order to send us a message of fraternal deescalation the fact that you have been you a catalan have been dead set against catalonia independence was the right was this a message of fraternal deescalation. can you tell me why mr bush is saying these kind of things i can't i don't read his mind i am asking with asking whether you agree with it for sure not why should i try to defend myself of the creation when mr puts him on if you are on able to say in beijing is there. if you how do you have those like this thing of the year while you are talking about do you want to deescalate the situation have been discussed he thinks the situation these government has been akin to be careful to know the discovery of this situation and

implementing and the old kind of measures in order to make things go into normal again but we cannot give to them that the people did wait to go to the communication as they are asking for because it is again this question to show that this has nothing to do with international law why not have a debate about the constitution and constitutional rights. that could have touched on those provisions which outlaw independence for spoilage regions they could have done it they could have to gone through the spanish barlow and imprisoned a proposal to reform the constitution by the basque bit they haven't done it why didn't you do it do you are you not interested in reforming the constitution who is asking for 70 percent of the manuals warlords also usual reform according according to the center for sociological research so watch your show so

it. could be nuclear lying. the center for sociological research has said 70 percent of spaniards want constitutional reform of some college are some while you can have some guy as bob's record of previous record why finish what ronald finish i don't want to do that anymore. minister in november the human rights commissioner of the council of europe wrote to the senate and the congress of deputies pressing for serious amendments to the so-called law on citizens safety i know that your government promised meaningful changes to this law but you haven't delivered them have you i've been visiting this

the consul. and he was not complaining at all and he said that this pain is usually 1st consider returning and then one performing i call in with your mind approachable. so there was no criticism at all you didn't read the letter that was sent there you had an interview with that they went with them and. i don't think there is criticism about the functioning of the spending but you didn't you didn't change the law or do you promised meaningful changes to you haven't i don't know exactly what you were talking about the general terms their consideration that the human rights council makes of of this based system are very good what the commissioner wrote was in his letter i find it disturbing that according to the minister of interior 27000 alone more than $21000.00 sanctions have been imposed on the grounds of lack of respect or consideration for police officers and the

articles that can easily be interpreted he said in an arbitrary manner and thus have a chilling effect on freedom of expression well you have a bias approach to this you to a shooting in spain what they can tell you is the just human grades court has had much less cases with respect to spain that to many other countries. the court of superior court of human rights decided that a number of basque separatists didn't get a fair trial. you can found that doesn't help to argument does it no doesn't help my argument for a beautiful until you but can't repeat the ones and again that the statistics show that spain has much less much less cases in front of the court of human rights than many other european countries like france belgium germany and others

but you don't answer for them you want. are you not concerned about this public safety or you wanted to change it. do you find inside this factory that so many people were sanctioned for disrespecting the police i am not aware of that they can't refer to this to the students or in general terms and the position that this painting has on respecting human right let's talk about arms sales in september last year you announced you had the sale of laser guided bombs to saudi arabia with concerns over the use of such weapons in the war in here been i'm just days later you changed your mind and said the contract had to be on the. dish contract more contract was higher it but seems that it hasn't been anymore sell arms. but you continue to sell arms not since these are covered with this you know

thieves they have been selling arms you said you had changed your mind and said this particular contract had to be on this particular contract had to be already was signed with the previous government and. the spanish socialist government believed that this had to be written yet every other word that the up about these bombs munitions of this kind have been used against hospitals hotels water whirls residential buildings factories and last year in a school bus attack so the question of collateral damage when they've been aimed at civilian targets doesn't really apply does what they say everybody who has a meaning will mean diligence if you can understand is that the precision we've created less collateral damage is that they're just randomly put if it's any civilian targets anyway that's just an academic argument why do you have to prove

that they have been used for that well if you read words human rights watch has said last year as of november last year 6872 civilians had been killed and more than 10000 wounded by saudi arabia led coalition strikes since 2015. they have documented about 90 apparently coalition air strikes which have hit homes markets hospitals schools and mosques and these are the people you decided to honor the contract with you but it is not at all approve of what you are saying that there was caused by this god of arms. well they will bomb coalition coalition air strikes but the bottom somebody trying to claim you are the only thing you have said it is something that if you have a little bead on mr broder to the problem you will understand that a precision bomb creates klesko had to hold them that there are random as

a former president of the european parliament i'm sure you noted the criticism such as attracted in that forum last november i mean please heavily criticize the way member states have greenlighted most stones exports to saudi arabia despite the fact that those exports violated 6 out of 8 criteria and thus undermine the entire european arms control effort the spores or vollmer that this base has been doing doesn't fulfill completely whole legal requirements amnesty international so do your own forms export more prohibits arms transfers when there is reasonable suspicion they could be used in human rights violations and we have a committee that control of the support of arms and to make sure that when we support our arms and we don't buy your made any verbal. and you are confident

despite criticism from human rights groups despite what the e.u. parliament has been saying about the need to stop these arms exports to saudi arabia that you haven't violated the i but i did tell you for that television 2 or 3 times but you continue asking the same question that it seems this government is in office they haven't continuous portrait arms so no more no more laser guided bombs to saudi arabia at least was a contract that had to be heard or it was signed by the previous government and since then he has been another one related to the time i am asking the same question minister in the time we have left i'd like to look at developments concerning gibraltar. your government has made it clear that you intend to use the bricks it process to reopen the question of shared sovereignty over gibraltar despite the fact that both britain and gibraltar have signalled that that issue is

not open for debate why do you bother by the world to open the question of shared sovereignty who says that your prime minister did in november he said the issue shared sovereignty would be back on the table of the prime minister sunsets for sure it's on the table all the time you will be for you but it's not for them not for gibraltar not for britain for sure and what. so what so what why do you think this time you can put it back on the tape do you think it's you can use the leverage the leverage of negotiations to put pressure on britain and. how badly you form you why really you don't know anything of what you are talking about my god what do you want done don't know do you do not i do don't help anything i won't be what you were talking we had been saying very clearly that we were not

going to use the dogs of the black sea to the point of the table the question of most of the rain thing how do you allow your or i just not the world in full and you didn't hear your prime minister say in november that the issue of sovereignty would be back on the table back on the table but not do it in directed negotiations how being around you are incredible what about through the trade negotiations if there is to be a free trade agreement between britain and spain what then will the again put pressure on gibraltar either you say be spared nothing i am going to surprise. you come from. this a bite this is the deal what you are talking of. you say that he's been eligible you say that and you say that the issue is on the table 1st of all you said the government had hadn't said anything about putting that on the table then you admit the prime minister certainly did say that can i explain my long please please have

an answer to your continues question please can you give me the opportunity. we have said very clearly that we had not going to get questions of range you don't get cable on the framework of breaks in negotiations and we haven't done it which doesn't mean that we forget about the question was over a $94.00 that will reach 5 agreement with the british government of what you brought up bar for the withdrawal treaty and in the future we also agreed with commission that any agreement with united in the little perspectives you've ruled who have to be on the control of the spaniel government that's all nothing more than that for sure we requested mr frankly but it hasn't been called on the day room who just got to negotiation you should know about it and not both questions on the 4th way. on this on february the 18th minister one of your warships

into the water and tried to order out commercial vehicle that were tied up there what was the point of that action because it is forbidden for the ships to stop they can pass that they can not stop now these were gibraltar waters british gibraltar waters which you don't procure not as we. do growth. because according to you know it's pretty. clear where the land waters are we are acting accordingly within to the nation no more with. the ships can pass by they can not stop. one of your most experienced diplomats who headed your mission and law of the sea matters and told you to reargue has said publicly that there is no legal basis for claiming that gibraltar has no territorial waters it is not the

point of view with them and. if you have a disagreement and you do have this disagreement over gibraltar waters why not settle it through the disputes procedure of the law on the sea conflicts when you go through the talks as far back as 960 not that very night but to put a question it will be much better which will lead the interviewer to answer the. priest now. cutting my answer is the true sense of the question i thought all you know for this pain is not over. the ships can pass by but they can not to stop in the water that we can see that they don't belong with us gibraltar's for it but one will settle that issue might go a long way that will not. wear that why not settle it. i understand you know dancing my question in this book and i ask the question

that's many times you've won it's my hands what are you afraid of dialogue taking it to international arbitration to the international court of justice they could decide this international court of justice is not competent for this kind of question and the u.n. law of the sea they are competent but you won't take it to them either you want to put me in the bank of guilty people or i'm just asking why not you're very funny. you're really funny. you've just reached a tax agreement with britain over gibraltar so dialogue can get some results planted. with gibraltar who i said would reckon i said with britain written about europe yes a greater getaway women got something wrong with it you were concerned about tax fraud in gibraltar is that right why not do more to prevent things like fraud and bribery and money laundering anyway can spain do more and we want you

always can do more. transparency international says that key european countries are failing to enforce the o.e.c.d. these and see bribery convention which is one of the main instruments for fighting global corruption which is the question. and spain is one of those which is it working on screen is one of them so the current show according to transparency international little or no inforced why is that we do as much as we can. what you could do more to up you're told could do better you've interviewed. mr good to have you in conflict so thank you thank you for your but next time i would appreciate if you could the questions and i'll answer by years away. i'm not here just to give you the questions you want was so.

thank.

you. standing up to ormond. painter mark inside a small town mayor in hungary. he's for a progressive society. welcoming minorities and fighting corruption. be a man who's proud to call himself a european. and 30 minutes on w.

d 2 you know that 77 percent. are younger than 6 of. cuts me and me and you. and you know what it's time all voices. on the 77 percent to talk about the issues. this is where it comes to. the 77 percent this weekend on d w. you're a big idea but what's become of it and what it looks like tomorrow. dublin gets ready for an in-depth look at the european elections across. the questions that matter but what are european voters hopes for the new parliament

what challenges fly ahead. can't wait to long for the country since then the people in power have come their way with not doing anything to fight the kind of crisis. and the european election affect the rest of. expert discussion of. the answer we have to answer to sleep 1st. has it all. 26 g.w. .

the bad. this is news coming to you live from berlin europe moves to destruct this information campaigns targeting the upcoming european elections there's been a massive push to get people out to vote but efforts to stop the spread of foreign and propaganda proved too little too late also on the program. more is no place for any child to get one in 5 live in conflict areas of warning from the age group save the children as.