tv Conflict Zone Deutsche Welle June 20, 2019 12:30pm-1:01pm CEST
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so if you have to get through the biggest make it break without a football 6. think again. let's look. at excitement. the 19. results here on t.v. telling you. i think that's actually more of question you should because king 52 you remarkably complacent about the fact that the most powerful country on the you sent you can consume death why do you think is complacency the international criminal court set up to try the worst crimes on the planet has a new enemy in washington the trumpet ministration was accused of having no legitimacy and says it wants to die my guess this week here in the hague is
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chilling sujit always be president of the i.c.c. how can he defend the court against such powerful opposition. about suzy welcome to conflict zone thank you very much and welcome to the i.c.c. thank you the u.s. national security adviser john bolton has said he wants your court to die and he's happy to help bring about that demise do you realize what a serious blow that is to your work it is not a serious blow to court because a 123 states parties to it too strongly supported this is the most powerful country in the world and we want them to be part of the cool they're not and they want we hope there will be we will. not cooperate with the i.c.c.
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he said we will provide no assistance to the i.c.c. we will not join the i.c.c. we will let the i.c.c. die only after all to all intents and purposes the i.c.c. is already dead to us now he said to you you want them to join this is the odds it couldn't be clearer could start the year that is the answer from him the moment we are confident that. they will reconsider we are confident about something not based on what many tell me tell you. the sort of hostility had been shown in the past never to the sixten that and later on another ministration came in even though the maintained in principle that they have difficulties with the i.c.c. and its jurisdictional reach they still did assist the court in very many ways think looting referring the doc situation to the court the united
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states government did move for 10 in doing so when you're dealing with them trying to do this trace when i was like once i can and when they voted in the security council to refer to the 4 situation to be i.c.c. they said they voted because they did not like the idea of impunity and for that reason that there were a flurry notwithstanding the reservations about the court this is not just a refusal to cooperate this is a threat to take punitive measures against anyone even daring to investigate the actions of americans only or their closest allies with a view to holding them accountable in an international court i.c.c. judges and prosecutors who investigate americans will be barred from entering the u.s. and their funds in the u.s. would be targeted i think that's actually or a question you should be casting. what that means asking you under
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a little seriously you learn seem to take this serious you see remarkably complacent about the fact that the most powerful country on the you saying it wants you dead why do you think is complacency it is not complacency what i am saying is leave bad and we are getting them to reconsider their position and join the court and cooperate because this court was established for reasons that america can pan out in the 1st place america has been quite strong in the past about international criminal justice they were at the forefront of nuremberg proceedings they have hoped with the administration of international criminal justice along the way since terminal times in the past you're talking to me about the past i'm talking about the present because if you're putting your head in the sand who you're not putting my head in the side what i'm saying here is that we need them to join us we have
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reasons the court has created for which the court in its creation have not and played the idea is that there should be a place of accountability for those who commit genocide those who commit crimes against humanity those who commit war crimes but reason those reasons should mention parrot that it's important to the united states as much as it is to the rest of the world and that is why this court was created you keep repeating that the 2 weeks ago the u.s. secretary of state might pumpin i referred to a 2017 request from the i.c.c. prosecutor to initiate an investigation into the situation in afghanistan that said pompei or could illegitimately target american personnel for prosecutions and sentencing in 2018 the trumpet ministration warned there would be consequences if you went ahead with that request pompei i understand that request is still pending is it still pending i don't know i don't know that man. to you would change what i
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already said but please address the specifics of what compiler is throwing at you he says that is could illegitimately target american personnel for prosecutions and sentencing that 2017 requests from the i.c.c. prosecutor to investigate the situation in afghan i cannot comment on pending matter that is a matter now pending the full temper of this court and we need to leave it at that are you going to challenge this incredibly hostile threat from the u.s. or bow down neatly and accept it. we'll put it to use those sort of the mood of the language it becomes a little difficult. other things that can happen between cow towing and the media as you put it and wore the other thing you said the point is now we. to consider that this court case important for the global interest for the interest of humanity they want to change course the i.c.c.
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is attacking america's rule of law it's not too late for the i.c.c. to change course and we urge that it do so immediately direct direct appeal from the u.s. secretary of state michael well. as i say once again i could not pass that as i already told you that's a matter pending before the team but what do you want me to tell you to tell you all right the temper is going to drop it like one so tell me this does the court stand by its 2016 report which said there was a reasonable basis to believe the u.s. military had committed torture at secret detention sites in afghanistan operated by the cia again how much your report again and matter pending before i try to do what i can tell you it's been in the public domain it's come from your court where i can tell you is that let's understand the jurisdiction the premise of the court. it is that states have the primary responsibility to do justice the court is all. court
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of last resort is one state unable unwilling to do justice but the i.c.c. is entitled to intervene now that means that for some states the ones we call the states they call them as a mirror of conscience so they need to do justice so that justice does not become an orphan in the territory of sovereign national sovereignty i understand that your answer candiotti. question and this is relevant to it and the 2nd part of the course the restriction those who are not able to do justice there are a lot of countries around the world where when these things flare up they cannot administer justice it is easier to do atrocity than to do justice we saw that in rwanda of the for the times i understand that right my question was does the court stand by its 2016 point 2 percent there was a reasonable basis to believe the u.s.
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military had committed torture secret tension so you mean that because they really mean what in the court reporter you're talking there are examination report sunday which are made public been given to the general assembly this is one of the intrinsics let me explain to you have we park now i am a judge the chief judge of the quarter. so i speak to you from the perspective of the judiciary i cannot speak to you from the perspective of the office of the prosecutor that is not to say that if i don't answer any question in relation to the office of the prosecutor there is no answer but you're the president of this school that has little to make the for its nuclear judging around these questions on the list and i'm refusing to answer what's already been in the public maybe what people to make of that you can characterize it anywhere you want the point is there are ways. and ask the judge i speak from my judgement i cannot be making comments on something else that is not. in the within the ram it click yes i
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have to decide what you are talking about is not before me as a judge ok so mr pompei was not going to get a reply from you to his appeal to change course is he going to get he's going to get the same answer that i've got to listen to which is no answer yeah it definitely shook the case yes ok it's not just america is it america is far from being the only country that that's refuses to deal with you in fact the most powerful and populous countries in the world have decided that your type of justice isn't for them i'm talking about china india pakistan russia that's 3 out of 5 permanent members of the security council with the power to block your investigations in countries that are not signed up to your court was a question their veto is another serious block to work isn't it why is that a problem for me. it's for the court that's what i mean for the court if stage who should join the court haven't joined this is a big problem is that the most powerful unpopular states in the but the run 123
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states nationally ignore those one mistake people make often quite frankly is the ignored those who are in unfocused and those who are not in that's not fair to those who are in the thesis that all 3 of them have intended to go in with the mustard to come we must be able to respect the participation of the 123 states parties who continue to have faith in the one hope the court left utah lost in the preferences of those who have not yet joined whom we hope will join at some point these 223 countries do not buy a large car vetoes in the permanent members of the security council they do it with a veto yes china it poses russia and the united states have a veto it is a factor of concern of course that. one of when cases come to court is where the security council refers it. attests to the court big hole we call them
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situations in west specter of countries that are not states parties of course when you have the possibility of somebody blocking that possibility of doing justice. where the court would naturally not reach by where of its membership it is a matter of concern it is a let's give you a concrete example you want to investigate the abuses suffered by the wreck injured people me and mine that's that's already to china has warned you off your claim of jurisdiction last year in the general assembly was based on an appropriate interpretation of the clickable legal concepts and might make the i.c.c. is work in the future more contentious undermining further its own therapy and credibility this is a certain. this is the kind of resistance you're facing among the permanent 5 members of the security council russia and similar criticisms accusing you of subjectively interpret in what it called the standards of international law it
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doesn't matter if they're right or wrong does it it matters that they have the power and the veto to block your work again i don't know what reich improve on the answer the answer i gave you is that. 123 state you have faith in this court and we continue to. just now we continue to watch those who have not joined to do so so that humanity all over the world become under the umbrella of your genius pulling on deaf ears what have you actually asked to solve why it is that those states who have not joined haven't done so. either way that should be a question you may want to ask or reflect upon what it means we can write the number of pages thesis on those we're not here to write ph d.
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thesis we can do oh yes let's stay with the facts and what you were set up to do which is to try to the most serious crimes of the planet and that is very important we should know lou signed and i find the veto that the 3 members that i mentioned permanent members of the security council have will keep you for instance from any serious prospect of trying any syrian officials that might be responsible for the mass killing and torture that has taken place that it's their veto that has prevented what human rights watch called a path to justice for syria's victims the fact is most go will not allow any referral of syrian leaders to your court under any circumstances we can that's a big gap we will need it is it is a very important job there's no question about that but i staked vetoes a situation that should ordinarily be brought to court so that humanity is protected. by virtue of the mandate of the i.c.c.
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it is a serious problem but it is one that all of that protection including you mr sebastian would need to get them to reconsider because this is about humanity it is not about the i.c.c. everyone keeps focusing i.c.c. i.c.c. we need to look beyond whine i.c.c. was created there were 6000000. jews killed because of their faith. during the 2nd world war we 800000 people when the genocide in the night and night i don't know what they see see you keep going back and i'm staying in the present i'm talking about the relatives of the 400000 victims of the assad regime who have absolutely 0 chance of getting the kind of justice that you would wish to deliver for them i'll just say not be a kindness to tell them that finally passed but i can do what i'm doing now using your program to them to reconsider. that position and joining.
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because the protection humanity under the rule watch this well that is what we hope to see happen we live in a world that despite your honorable intentions we live in a world where the spots to get away with pretty much everything we are hoping that changes that is why this court was brought into play and there's an irony you have reason to think that that has actually changed there's an irony here isn't there if you kill one person with luck you'll be arrested tried and you're convicted you order the death of 400000 people and we all know who we're talking about here and you get invited to peace talks just as i have not invited anybody no you haven't you haven't so why don't you but syrian officials have and that's the reality of today isn't it that's the america we all had more international law great a body of international law more courts more experts more judges but that's the
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reality one person you get tried you kill 400000 you get invited to peace talks that's hardly justices think you and i might be able to. extant. speaking loudly with the issue even commenting on that but i want to see where you're coming from but i would say that it is a matter that passed all of us you'll be to the actions like. those concerned in these decisions to stalk the reach of isis's jurisdiction to reconsider their position you told the general assembly last year that the mere existence of this court serves as an obstacle to those wishing to commit crimes against humanity if that were true we wouldn't have seen the use of chemical weapons in syria along with the torture and extrajudicial killings the continuing
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slaughter in yemen the killings in south sudan the targeted executions in the slums of venezuela and the massive loss of life in your own home country nigeria. you can't offer the kind of protection and you can't offer the obstacles that you claim let friends back up to for support the reality doesn't match your rhetoric does it now i can tell you this i can tell you that yes this cold hands put an obstacle. to the conscience of those who would ordinarily but me in ways they would not be if we didn't have the schools well nothing you have and you can see how it's really done not in venezuela not in syria when i cannot comment on some of those issues it's a matter of you read the news when i can read you read the news you see what's happened i read the news but ever since how can i tell you something because the way this is what i said judge i cannot comment on the propositions you trust me i
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can speak in general terms about the need for everyone to remember why the court was here the reason why i cannot comment on what you said distinct takes any of those. cases come up at the i.c.c. . it be a problem for me not her chances that he's not shot i'm not sure that it's not much chance we have to keep hoping. that you cannot fail to notice is a human being it's men as well and the states men and women who make these decisions will reconsider their position so that everybody subscribe to be i.c.c. not only are some not reconsidering their positions you have the withdrawal of existing signatories to the rome treaty like the philippines and burundi and i ask you whether you can blame them because the big powers refused to collaborate with us should this forms and we just recently had the malaysia join us don't forget
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this you have that what about the withdrawal of the philippines and burundi where there are clear cases to answer why not clear cases of human rights violations what more do you expect me to say to think that it is for them they made the decision to draw for reasons that reasons we q. and i. can discuss in another 2nd stances but that's not what the i.c.c. . is not ice he says it's a major we. are your work isn't it. because not only are you having countries withdrawing you having others that are flouting their commitments to the cause of the philippines and burundi the dimensions. drew because they say that i.c.c. was investigating cases in relation to that now why is that a problem for the i.c.c. in the moral sense that you're trying to apply because i.c.c. is doing its work and people choose to withdraw and then that's
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a problem for the i.c.c. i can see it but you're doing your work i would be because i.c.c. was precisely doing its why some people didn't like it that they made this unfortunate decision that we regret in 2016 the group of former world leaders learn as the elders called for the urgent reform of the i.c.c. required it said to improve its overall performance and effectiveness in delivering justice for all in a timely manner such reforms they said would lead to the enhance credibility of the court there have been no reforms since 2016 reforms. it depends on what we need. reform. i will be the past to tell you that as a human institution this court yes those knees of the ready review of that manner of doing one to 2 to do battle like we do in our lives now like
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every other site institutional company would do that is taken for granted but in advance of what people are talking about the rather some reforms that are more difficult to achieve because. you need to amend the rooms tattooed some that's a more difficult proposition but closer to home judges will want to keep on reviewing how we do the one to improve how. we do things there have been some serious missteps doesn't help when you have this. whittall of the former every coast president laurent gbagbo for instance earlier this year this was seen as a stunning defeat wasn't it for what was the 1st prosecution of a former head of state amnesty international called it a crushing disappointment to victims of post election violence in the country do you share that disappointment i do not share the counter rising of stunning defeat
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i do. understand the concern of those who speak on behalf of the victims i could see. they would be disappointed by such results but understanding oh i think with the victims. one can say they should not lead us to taking short cuts to do one short cut you need better prosecution said going to the judge to not toughest one of your colleagues said the prosecutor had failed to submit sufficient evidence to demonstrate the responsibility of mr gbagbo as well as his former youth minister i can satisfy the burden of proof this is a prosecution failure isn't it i cannot comment on that because i mean the appeals court will be of this court and that case might come of an appeal and because of the time something i cannot comment on it because what i was saying what i was
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saying is that. you know not just live with all the press procedures it means perfect in the court or is it that there is too much of the need is not high that everything is part until everything is imperfect when you have a string of losses there in a string of reverse and you listen to me please along the way there's all kinds of continuum that we must take into account now judge i must tell you that i do not regard it as a stunning defeat citing understand. victims will be disappointed. but we hand other ways of trying to attend to the victims for instance the something we call the trust fund for victims by the way. to donate is not just this message that's not just us to donate to the trust fund for victims something else that's not just them systems program. there is no conviction am i right or wrong in
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thinking that a prosecutor's job is to bring to court he will pull a case based on solid evidence that will stand up in court and that hasn't been happening the last meal is questions and he did not want to be easy if he seems to be written out that is simply what we can write appears if he says now you know help me where you can give me a much simpler answer than that i cannot give you much simpler answer some things are not susceptible to simplistic answers you say that's an excuse or not it is not an excuse the fact of the matter is this if you focused on accountability and we need to focus on the room started promised counter ability to people he did not promise that every case that comes to court must result in a conviction that do you know. we are not here running for your cause i think you can try building up the holy office of the inquisition even. right did not come because everybody or when failed to stand unfortunately we're
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minutes w. will. board. i'm not thinking out of the gym well i just sometimes i am but i stand up and whip it up and meet the german thinks deep into the german culture of looking at the stereotypes aquatics put in here thinks he's a country that i know a lot. yes. the thickness gram a day out thus it's all that hey look i'm a joke join me from the gemini funded up the. coast. guard. it's been 50 years since the moon
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landing. he was the 1st man to walk on the moon. as a small boy he dreamed of the stars. as a pilot decent anything no matter how dangerous. cherished or go to the cold. as an astronaut he took part in the greatest adventure in history. but he rode a legend was simply a human being. must learn strong starts july 28th on t w.
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this is e w news live from berlin iran says that it quote is ready for war after shooting down what it says was a u.s. fighter and to ron says that the u.s. has crossed a red line brazing fears of a military confrontation or prompting between tehran and washington because also coming up china's president xi jinping arrives in north korea and just greeted by
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