history. was simply a human being. was no armstrong. was his destiny starts july 20th w. . hello and welcome to crowded around the world one person is forcibly displaced nearly every 2 seconds that's the highest level of placement on record it amounts to over 70000000 people trying to flee to safety often risking their lives in the mediterranean 600 migrants drowned in the 1st half of this year alone after a 2 week standoff with italian authorities who were blocking access to ports

a german rescue ship last week forced its way into the port of lampedusa leading to the prompt arrest of the captain migrants seeking entry to the u.s. also face dangers including cramped and unhygienic conditions in holding camps along the southern border with mexico trapped refugees rescued forgive me that's our title this week on quadriga and here are our guests ana maria alvarez from costa rica is a refugee activist and founder of the migration hub she says we don't combat irregular migrants by letting them die while crossing borders we do it by offering safe and regulated tough ways and fair migratory policies both for the country and for those migrating. works university and she's an expert on migration issues she says humanitarian rhetoric loan doesn't make humanitarian policy. u.s.

and e.u. migration policies are more similar than we may fit. and it's a pleasure to welcome other lending for the program he works for the daily newspaper the target should be though and he says we will only achieve a humane european refugee policy if e.u. citizens that europe has had to tighten its borders in order to prevent right wing populist from gaining the upper hand so they let me start out by asking you about the numbers that we're seeing as i mentioned this is in fact the biggest wave of refugees worldwide on record since the 2nd world war why is that must we expect this trend in fact to continue rising it's indeed the case that the refugee influx to europe has been unprecedented since world war 2 but the reasons are very diverse we see people fleeing from war but also people searching

for opportunities in europe so. there's on the one hand the intensification of war and conflict in the middle east and hardships in south america that lead to large movements of people but there's also economic developments in africa that lead to an increase in the number of migrants arriving from there and also crossing the mediterranean through libya. those who advocate tighter borders often see refugees as people who are making an economic choice basically looking for a better life those who advocate doing more to open borders to receive them typically see refugees as victims for example of conflict environmental disaster and so on we've just heard it's a lot more complicated than that what does that mean for policy well actually just

sort of correctly right i mean we have to make up this was a refugee who is an asylum seeker who's actually looking for a canonical opportunity is right so we have to distinguish that in the 1st place and yes of course especially when when when when we talk about what's happening to them littering and people fleeing out especially from leave you have these days i mean just i guess was just to right the strike happened and killed 4040 people in a migrant camp in libya so so of course it's just right so what it means for policy means that many countries have signed up and has committed to do global compact recently which is basically to say why didn't try to try to prevent people from dying from the c.m. actually creating more safe pathways for my us to calm all of us lead countries like australia and united states were to want schools whose sign up is a global company for example a a solution of course not but it's a commitment from this companies to strengthen and actually basically to take care

of the pathways of migrants and when they're migrating both as you pointed out with your opening statement time migrant sentiment essentially easy to phobia often has become a driving force for right wing populism in europe but if you look at this distance just to sticks rich europe has taken in only 16 percent of the total number of people who are fleeing it's actually poor african and middle eastern countries that have taken in the vast bulk of migrants worldwide is that fair. it might not be fair and i mean you're completely correct i mean the syrian. migrants from syria they basically are in turkey in jordan and in the i think 6 millions of us have millions of them on these 3 countries combined so if you compared to these 3 countries europe as a bloc has not taken in a lot but there is a buck to it but it is you have to reconcile the humanitarian imperative to help

those people with the acceptance of the local people and it seems to be lacking huge part of acceptance of as you mentioned in your question in the 1st part of your question and. you've witnessed as a consequence of this the rise of a lot of basically right wing populism in europe that the that is the consequence of a noble open border policy so it's not a question of fairness it's a question of how many could be reconciled with societies and states in europe so then as you implied in your opening statement there is a lot of humanitarian rhetoric in europe but you were essentially saying that the practice is something else the fact is there is a strong body of migration law in place we have rules and systems and processes for how to deal with the flow of migrants but obviously that system is broken or we wouldn't be having this conversation yes so the body of law does not

reflect the political reality and this is something that i want to come back to which is making this connection between the influx of refugees and right wing populism is not that clear right the countries that are most opposed to it in europe namely poland and hungary there's a those of the countries that have the least influx of refugees in europe right so they they. base there and tie refugee rhetoric on sort of a threat perception around refugees right and this is this is the thing that we have to tackle i don't think people are opposed to the humanitarian idea of taking in refugees i think what they are afraid of is the unregulated uncontrolled way that refugees are entering so by saying that we should not save people from the

mediterranean because that will fuel right wing support i don't think is the real narrative the narrative is to bring people over to europe safely and have them vetted have them background checked and be humanitarian also in the size of migrants that we want to bring in not just saying we just shut it off in order to you know drain the right wing rhetoric that's not what we should do i think this is also not. the solution to this pressure because it is based on a threat perception rather than on reality in my opinion i want to come back to you mother i know you wanted to respond to that let's just take a brief look at the situation in the medicare medicaid rainy and and particularly a look at just how dysfunctional the practice there has become it was illustrated in the past few weeks when we saw a crisis that essentially pitted the captain of

a german refugee ship against italy's populist leader. it's nice interior minister latte or so being me nicknamed capitano he owes this not to his love of the sea but to his strict policy on refugees. she only of the hunt is a real captain jenin refugee camp cape town many consider her a here right she weeks ago she took 53 refugees and pulled the sea watch 3 import them to it to me despite sal being nice and she finally decided on the saturday night to enter the ports on a small italian island of lampedusa. we declared a state of necessity because the psychological situation and the humanitary condition has been worsening so much that i cannot guarantee you the safety off the rescue people. the captain was under arrest for several days for entering the force

illegally armed because she watched 3 curry did with the border patrol but the new things she should spend years behind bars. first there were no says it was a criminal it were like. this couple of a case to appear right or a criminal. so martha was right and the captain ms wreckage or or 70 the captain is right i mean you have to save lives quite there's no discussion about it and there's no but to it there's nothing else that's a humanitarian improves if you cannot let people who are neat so there's nothing to add for it. having said that. there is a dilemma we're facing the dilemma is you don't want to encourage people to go on a on the main on an adventurous trip that might kill you. so by saving lives sometimes just sending messages to 2 people who are coming so this is the dilemma

you cannot escape just easily and saying i want to blend the consequences of it you have to save life there's no but to it but there is something that you're coaching people to go on this i want to take that point to the other guests in just a moment let me just ask you one other thing that goes back to your opening statement and the idea that we may have to tighten borders in order to prevent right wing populous from gaining the upper hand in fact don't actions like sell vs tightening the borders of italy in many ways feed to the kind of xena phobia that celine just described rather than actually reducing it. it's hard to say what is 1st of all the 2nd and what is the consequence of what i mean it really seems to be an example that i mean the legal nord where she's the party chief of she is again the legal note is up in the polls i think is now a support rate of 35 percent italians this is terrifying even even

salvini is making all these speeches maybe he's fueling it but maybe he's just reflecting a sentiment that isn't really in italy as you mentioned in the 1st place was one of the countries that most refugees came in from the mediterranean and they had a huge influx of immigrants so this is a very very complicated. connection between what causes what there is clearly 04 big sentiments inviting populism that has the fight you have to fight these xina for big foreign and sentiments on the other hand you have to reflect that there is no consensus in the societies in europe about how many of migrants could be could be coming into one country so let me come back now to this question of incentives and disincentives because that in fact was in your opening statement on ameri that you said we won't combat illegal migration by letting people die at the borders is

that in fact what you think selvi me is doing or trying to disincentive eyes people to calm and clearly you don't think it works in that case of migration of course i'm to like them i don't i don't think anybody's illegal but absolutely i mean what what we should not fall into again this and they have a particular agenda and they have been using i mean call of united states calling in telling us well in and countries where they don't have that many refugees or are my friends coming it's an agenda and we we need to find a way how we how can we deal with the civil society and tell them not to fall into these agenda which is do you know my. father my grandson. sist and basically what we should be working on what we should be doing is to kind of bring by the dignity to migrants which we've been using in the past 3 years for political agendas so so of course he's not right and i am so so the problem here is that the more with falling under discussion whether the watch did the right thing or not of course it

is there's no point out of this right i mean but the process that is going to continue out of fear i don't think that he is going to stop there because i mean they're going to continue coming and who's going to be out there who's going to risk. their personal liability and and their organizations to go and continue rescuing for in sample there is a boat a german boat called un to who was just really such a thing this week after 2 years of being kept by the italian government so they couldn't go out to operating them in the mediterranean sea for 2 years and we would be supporting somebody should be deserving stations were actually doing the most of these and act of humanity so let me just. pronounce one thing i mean if you look at italy from finland to greece from the netherlands to denmark to fronts all these countries there have been a backlash of the 2015 backers from from governments saying they took over the the rhetoric of wiping populism we need to secure our borders we need stricter

policies and so on and so on because the pressure from all the societies were just growing on these governments so they are do you have any sympathy for italy's position hasn't the e.u. in many ways let italy bear the brunt of the refugee crisis at least in the mediterranean. i mean there's 2 important points that i that i think are worth making in this debate. first is i don't think this is a crisis of refugee numbers this is a crisis of refugee accommodation and refugee policy this is why we experience the backlash after 2000. 15 because the e.u. hasn't been able to practice real solidarity and provide an infrastructure that helps countries stem the influx of migrants i don't think it's a. we'd have to take a hard look not at securing our borders and making sure fewer migrants come we have

to take a hard look at europeans. and how we will manage refugee influxes in the future because this is not a story that is over now this is going to be something that we will deal with in the future and if we just close our eyes and say ok if we keep the refugees outside of european borders then our problem is solved this is not the case and the 2nd point i want to make is this idea of this symbolic discussion about saving refugees from the mediterranean and this is why we're incentivizing this is closing our eyes towards the real issues that drive migration the real push factors it's not the push factor or the pull factor if we say a. real push factors our economic our security our climate change our technological progress and if we keep having those placeholder debates about

a few boat saving lives which is a humanitarian imperative which you've said we stop. talking about the real issues and this is what we have to fight we have to push these these place a lot of debates away and start talking about the real push and pull factors and this is not what we do with this. sea watch debate so essentially celine is saying that this is very much about the fact that once refugees do i arrive in europe or in the united states we are not doing enough as you said to accommodate them to integrate them to process their their asylum applications and so it interesting lee enough to that actually was a point that was made by soviet me in relation to the sophia mission sophia is a naval mission of the e.u. i think an operation since 2015 the idea was to try to stop human smuggling in the mediterranean particularly coming out of libya but elsewhere as well so has

complained that the mission has turned into essentially a refugee rescue mission in which the refugees are then simply deposited on italian territory rather than being distributed across the e.u. in accordance with existing e.u. law doesn't he have a point. i think so few rescued 44000 people moved to rain and the the humanitarian imperative is always so strong you say you have to rescue these people on the other hand. i already described what i would call the dilemma the more the you rescue the more people feel they will be rescued i think there is a percentage of ice there is even migration if there is i mean there clearly they are all and collecting themself they all of them mobiles and talking about how to come to europe because that's what they want and i don't blame them they want to come but it's just how the system works i mean i would love to have a common european refugee policy would love to have under the muck of the german

chancellor try to have it for 4 years every week every month every day through saying we need we need a fair quota system and so on and so on and she couldn't get it because europe is not united in refugee policy so this is yes you're right we need one but we don't have all the discussion about incentives and disincentives has played a very big role in the us debate as well so let's now turn to the situation on the southern border of the united states and take a look at at the problems there refugees are drowning there as well as here as a recent photo show to a very powerful effect. this image has circulated around the world oscar maris and his nearly 2 year old daughter lariam which trying to flee when they drowned in the border. they came from el salvador heading for the united states but like so many others they didn't make it. home in el salvador.

romero's clings to belongings and photos of her son and granddaughter. and the demons that. the last thing he said to me on saturday. was moment mama i love you they are a moment please don't worry we're fine we've been in the so it was his last message just when the latest in fact. that even if the father and daughter had crossed the river things wouldn't have been easy for them in america under donald trump boulder police and right wing militia hunting down immigrants from latin america like never before tens of thousands of them being held in u.s. prisons and camps men women and children hardly anyone is amount to stay. you wouldn't believe of these people. these are people. which are animals and we're taking them out of the country at

a level of the ring that's never happened before is the american dream for everyone . ana maria donald trump has long been talking about a crisis at the southern border and in fact the recent numbers appear to be bearing him out why are we seeing what is truly an enormous tide of people coming across that border and what is prompting acts of such desperation as oscar ramiro us trying to swim with his toddler daughter nobody would put their song or their daughter in the water if the land would have be more dangerous and also let's let's not forget that central america special that the. triangle has a history with the united states over that cate's even the last century but recently. we cannot forget of the by the end of last year we saw this kind of people coming together from the north triangle because the journey of the road was

very dangerous for many of them who are fleeing out ever since 2012 we saw a real peak i mean crease of particularly among component miners so this is the time that the carbon they organize themselves together because the road is very dangerous especially crossing crossing mexico. they're having a lot of deals right now don tron is trying to basically push mexico to deal with the whole with a whole 2 to ation in fact yesterday a federal court ruled that east unconstitutional for donald trump to keep these people intentional centers without a hearing because what now we can say that was done on top is doing is unconstitutional just tell us very briefly what the conditions are like in those detention centers there was a lot of there was a big headline recently about the fact that young children were being held without access to so in toothpaste conditions have been called into humane what is the problem they are why are border authorities able to provide humane care.

i mean let's not forget that these people are fleeing not from islands draw carville's and poverty and when they have arrested a border specially many of them since last year in november when the car of and their children were separated from their parents so they're still there together where there is a number at around 200-2300 children who many of them are alone and that already besides khan constitutional before they there asylum seeker process is going but it's completely the probable to have that many people concentrating in bury them spaces which is not even given for them on top of a long and nobody's taking care of them so that already. by itself it's already it's already wrong. so then is it a funding issue or is it perhaps again an issue of attempting to deter migration by showing people that conditions are abysmal donald trump has said something of that nature would you ascribe motivation to the entire u.s.

government i think there's there's a combination of again a management crisis and then to prepare for things that they themselves have been warning about for months but we see parallels with european policy right so we see donald trump threatening mexico with terrorists. germany is doing or doing is traveling around africa and offering development assistance to curb migration. extend the number of safe start countries in europe and try to make a deal with mexico as a treaty immigration security treaty to treat mexico as a country sort of a dublin system where they have to. go themselves so there's a lot of parallels not only in the imagery that you showed before but also on the policy level but surely it is not to give development assistance to try to help people in the countries where they live so the question is why do we give

development assistance right do we give it to actually foster economic growth in those countries or is it sort of a financial incentive to decrease migration but it is a funding issue because there are there is obviously in these centers there needs to be there needs to be a better better conditions but what we have to do is to basically call the congress to money tour what is happening with that money because that monies that are arriving thanks centers. let me take us back to our title track refugees rescue for a bit do you think we will see this system change any time soon you know it's a very very short answer but i can't. the consensus of the european union i can see a consensus of in the united states even though the democratic party is not an open borders party as well because sulphate voted for billions of money to secure the borders though. so going to have to cut you off right there thank you all for being

with us thanks to all of you out there for turning and see you sad.

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