when i returned to. visit friends i don't think i'd ever go back there to live you know when i lived there again i don't know so i'm not sure. witness to step matters. they'd find. the government has already shell the bill that would be the end of it would not come back why should there be any history for the rest. isn't that you wrote in a rule of law you say you're going to give me time resolute let me finish this is a heated discussion you know even if he wanted to you got to give me a chance to answer my question plenty of time interrupting than i can answer weeks of mass protests in hong kong show no sign of coming to an end but how long will beijing put up with it my guess this week here in the city is ronnie tong a member of the hong kong government's cabinet and

a senior advisor to its chief executive gary locke to be authorised to use now except that the new extradition law which provoked the crisis should be scrapped now and for good. welcomes comfort zone 2000000 people on the streets of hong kong. failures by the hong kong government admitted by the chief executive kerry lam why is she still there why hasn't she was there and well i think this is a more complex question than simply asking why did she not resign 1st of all someone find also my daughter to somebody fails in there well not only don't know i don't want to argue about a figure but more i chris figure would be more like half a 1000000. but even then it's a very very large number of people on the street and i think the government accepted the 2nd thing is that we must understand what the government has been

trying to do. a poll did by one of the more mainstream newspapers of the people return now in force to march on sunday revealed that 90 percent of the people who much thought that the extradition bill was so enabled the hong kong government to send people back to china for trial for criticizing beijing now they couldn't be more wrong and this is where they actually extradition because it is this this extradition bill i was a stab you about extraditing people who committed a crime across the border or outside the border of our own call comes to hong kong and we need to have a legal framework to see how we would deal with i want to get a sense of that is only there once you get in so that really has got nothing to do with any of the freedoms or core values of the people in hong kong so why if that is so why should the chivas say they resign because she has an extension

deficiences in the work of the government and you tell me which government leaders in the world have not made mistakes this isn't these are huge missile insanities a huge mistake look you know why don't we have we know as i say a minute there is not a champion of the liberal party saying that you should resign as well clearly that is not even to do with the call there is our freedoms of the people of hong kong now the government has not done except the nation following enough true that is because of the fact that we need to deal with a particular criminal who is about to be released very soon and that basically. impact the period of consultation now that is not ideal i accept but this is not the sort of thing that you say that because it's a huge mistake therefore the chief executive ought to resign well i don't want to resign maybe i want to resign why why is it why doesn't you really want it in failure then no i'm not under sort of not admitting i am guilty of as she did kind

of face the admit it deficiency. in the work of the government i personally have to shoulder much of the responsibility she said i'm sorry says let your child says and anxieties in society i'm sorry i mean you are being unfair really i mean quoting her because that unfair you know and you're being a little unfair about that she is basically saying that she has not done the consultation farley enough that is not something that any government would take the blame or say the whole government or the leader or the prime minister or whoever should resign and i say which government leader in the world have not made mistakes for us to talk now you let me push an extradition here i want to follow up on what you said ok about the executions let me a chance to answer your question i did i gave you a sense then you have to use of your me not in the view of you right i give you plenty of china a new extradition bill but was widely seen as an attempt to remove one of the key

legal safeguard think of hong kong's way of life i know you do i know you scoffed at all objections from foreign i know has done some of the most respected legal if you do should you put it here found internationally putting a very unfairly person bill sorry the present statue i do where you've read it and i probably have not because have you read it you probably wouldn't have put the question the way you did the present law was an act not by the sale government but by the british colonial government before they hand over which i gave the arguments notes are you talking about the statue i'm talking about the amendment on so you mr you know i'm talking about the statue you must read the start you or i to understand what is going out if you haven't even read it you don't understand it and you don't qualify to produce that you cite let me just finish i haven't not finished he said you're going to give me time resolute let me finish right ok the statute was an active by the british colonial government it followed very closely

the resolution of the united nations in 1900. are you saying that the united nation was suggesting that home culture do something which is contrary to human rights and core values and freedoms that is of course not true now come to the amendment what the amendment did was not to change the legal framework or purports to do is to extend the ability of the statue to china and the rest of the world to start a lot of people aren't buying that well you know how can car association what you want obviously not buying on bar association and driving effects and not talk about opinion or i talk about opinion a lot of talk a very respected organize ations mr tieless i don't doubt virus sociate the hong kong law society the law society of england and wales the international bar associations human rights institute fair trials the defense extradition lawyers forum amnesty international human rights watch the speaker of the house of

representatives all of them challenge the suggestion by your chief executive that the amendments you want to make to the hong kong extradition laws are in accordance with international human right is they also how upset it is if you don't the only one who sees the truth knows what they're going to anyone who sees the light tell is to correct yeah yeah from a rule of law point of view you would think no one let alone lawyers would have jumped to the cement exert that's what you said as i say it follows what you know total holydays know nothing if you're the only one who sees the light falls on the united nations provided each member state to do. and we are following the precise sprue jeem as the u.s. military in the u.k. regime canadian a jim australia dream and nobody is making any comment about those countries say how the south that i and i answered my own son mr to who think that the judiciary in hong kong is not up to its work has to do its not my opinion the

opinion of your own you've got to look at the 1st article on one and suddenly asian is putting a travesty of the facts to me so the hong kong bar association is putting a travesty of i think they are not looking at the law they're not looking at both of these and the lawyers have got it wrong actually it's capable of doing a proper job of keeping you safe you say to these and any decision that is made by the chief executive is subject to confirmation by the whole no no no you can completely run for classic rail and we want to see what is wrong about that because you laid out a fancy i'll propose you men of electrons now you can lay out on a show proposed a plan a lot of x.l. criminal suspects can be extradited without confirmation by the hong kong courts. can i say you know can i ask you a question yeah you got all the facts wrong what facts were up one fact is if you look at the statute you know that the chief executive has no power to order extradition is clearly spelled out in the statute for one thing secondly ordered

the chief executive can do is to refuse extradition the underside would refuse exactly that a final decision if we refuse that's the final decision he can she can he or she can only refuse or tradition he or she cannot alter its tradition the only institution which can order extradition is to courts mr tung that the your and bar association points out that the magistrate of parliament i understand and our chairman so not only does a land the magistrate go find a constant basis a does not have around jurisdiction and who do not agree with this the magistrate are how can i get the question up the magistrate in hong kong says the bar association does not have the jurisdiction to inquire into the quality of justice that the future may go enjoy wrong once surrounded why am i going run so we don't want the. wrong really you are only talking about the committal process yes

the law has got 2 processes one is the committal process the other 2 is about safeguarding and the protection of human rights and fair trial which is being provided in section 5 of the statue as the u.k. law society pointed out in so far as the proposals would introduce any human rights examinations at all they are vested in hong kong's chief executive no those alone or appear really is wrong it's wrong so the u.k. law society goes wrong please pick up the search you have to look before you come to me and ask me questions. you're absolutely right that the judges and magistrates of hong kong wouldn't dream of currying favor with beijing they leave that to people like you. you want to curry favor with wholly unfair it is not only unfair to me but this is really extremely unfair to the judges and judges are there to carry out the law if they can't carry out the law they have no business being

judges all right i have no power whatsoever i mean they're not vital to the government i have no power because even the chief executive post so has no power confort by the law i keep telling and i haven't said it starfish and they are enough times for you have to look at the law to understand what are the facts if you don't lose out an organization and a lot of people would say yes yes because their opinions matter no i don't think so the facts matter i'm sorry facts matter society here at home you know he does not have none of these not of the same opinions an atmosphere of the facts and the u.k. law society who writes that the proposals in the extradition bill fundamentally imperil the operation of the rule in hong kong rule of law in oregon they've got it wrong as well you know i think you can understand why why why do they think it will imperil the rule of law and on kong if all of that is happening is that the task of scrutinizing any requests for extradition is to be considered by the judge as mr

someone you're not well not isness asking why does say a trial is available in the mainland what kind of fair trial well fair trial what the government has proposed is to ensure that they would be open trial defense and would be a little touch on the mainland yes open kids when do they have open trials on the mainland are you are you letting me answer the question on you know. priest owns or up that's very very and polite all right and there have been this is a heated discussion the no no no if this is a hint it is going to give me a chance to answer my question. sente of time interrupting than i can answer i'm telling you that the government is proposing to ensure that there will be assurances of open trial this defendant would have the choice of his own lawyer the trial has to be proceeded on the basis that it will be in the language which he understands there would be visitation rights all these the minimum guarantees of article 14 of the i.c.c. p.r.

do you know what is' is to be are is international covenant of civil and political rights right it's a charter for human rights the government is saying that mr chairman i was not ratified i'm not with china i'm talking about hong kong because but gay keep it as in hong kong but i'm talking about is one can if they are selling not going to try and offer a different sort of about kind of fair trial that define turning can expect in the mainland turn on the mainland if there is no guarantee that there will be the minimum requirements of article 14 of i.c.c. b.-o. it is written in the law there then the court has no business ordering a extradition even if a court were to order an extradition the chief executive would veto it because as i keep repeating the telling you that achieve it say it has no power to order extradition but has power to veto an order for extradition are you following that unlikely the chief executive is unless you want to say to a request from china based on what fact do you say those are like she's an

appointee of china so isn't she so so she got to stand up to china suddenly i'm not saying this is what is wrong not go through based on what basis do you say that she would not do that based on the human rights record in china as a civil and she did have her right says she either for that or to have 60 years ago to china has she however or the initial decision of any suspect to china has she you're told me will you tell me i don't know you i don't mean by that has not been a single occasion that that happened we're talking about when it does happen notice i'm not going to talk about when your start all prevents us from doing song did you read the you. latest human rights reports about what happens if you really u.k. report in 2011 i'm asking about the he's right it's a real you go report 2011 i must go by you lose if someone writes you point a commission says that it is paramount that you should respect each member states on judicial system even where those civil and political rights and don't use the road you know in china no the continuing to gentian

a trial of human rights not i also want to say as i'm telling you both in the u.n. resolution and in the u.k. report and 2011 made it very clearly that protection of human rights and the tradition are not mutually exclusive that is why that you've got to frame your legal regime in the way that hong kong is doing to ensure and the gay keeping is in the local judiciary not anywhere else in the world to ensure that any suspect any offender would be entitled to fair trial and protection of human rights when the extradition is being carried out that is the way in which all extradition a range mans mr tuck. is being carried out the well over a certain no country is different mr tung what expectation can there be of a fair trial in china when civil and political rights according to the latest british human rights and democracy report i don't want is our phones and rights

continue to be eroded can i just read what they said the continuing detention and trials of human rights lawyers and defenders lack of due process and judicial transparency remain important concerns i don't want to sound funny how can you have how can you have an expectation of a fair trial for anyone that is x. to die to i don't want to sound of answer but how can anyone expect a fair trial to be had in syria or iraq. we're not talking about syria no great talking about mainland china that is essential to me no it's not is the same of that i just say it's not just it's a china not just with china why do single china i'm told i'm not this is the whole point of the else that's half the time but i've been talking glazes they go canceling hong kong hong kong people will apply the same standard no matter who is coming to make the requests be it united case united states united kingdom syria russia china we apply the same standard because this is what the model requires us

to do and we would do it period once you understand the purpose of extradition you would have understood what i was saying but obviously you don't you don't you want what your guest mr instead of throwing insults at me what's what's your guess about where this is headed with the hardliners in beijing try to teach hong kong a lesson you know or will they show that they're willing to learn from what's been ducking for the facts say but it does not come from mainland i think the chief executive is explain very clearly that it was her own initiative based on the fact that she was asked by the family of the girl who unfortunately was murdered by this hong kong person in taiwan because of the whole injustice of the situation the chief executive agreed to look into it and she was asked to to establish an extradition regime which can apply to taiwan applied to the rest of

the world which includes china but china is very exercised about what's been happening here called it a downright if you know a direct challenge to the work one country 2 systems if you were right china would not have permitted the chief executive to shelve the bill. right on with that go on as far as this administration is concerned i understand it's not going to come back period instead in the last few days or so it's just tell me right if what you say were true why would china do it. the fact is you don't know changes and it is i do i do more that you do otherwise you want how you come and ask me for for for for an interview would you in the us if you had all the answers you would have come to me in the last few days may come along the hong kong my association has called for a credible commission of inquiry not the police complaints council but a statutory independent body that can compel documents to be submitted and worst when this is

a disaster sorry is that going to happen is there going to be i'm not sure we should have inspiring are not do you want it to happen because the years are you know i have made clear that i am going in good greenman with that request but the capital. of the eyepiece see the independent police complaints council has already. on a full inquiry there is only one investigation subject which is the police the police has already promised that it would comply with all requests and brought and provide for cooperation the government has made the same promise so that inquiry would be a very sufficient inquiry but if at the end of the day what was the protest nurse then said that's necessary should come on the ongoing matter so serious this is not sufficient the only thing you're not you know what to say since it is called a by association without looking at the facts and there's a difference we should very much i had to look at a face look at the facts what you pay the bill why not look at the facts and you

have to i don't know what i said let's talk it rubbish 5 i didn't say that but i don't know what facts they looked at but i'm telling you what the facts are right now if at the end of the day the i.c. i.p.c.c. inquiry proved to be insufficient in adequate then of course we can look at to see whether there are other ways to implement or to improve what is being done but inquiry is going to be carried out russell and also you want to read into what the hong kong government did or didn't do what that is being look how it failed by. body its own deficiencies no it's not turned over to science independent does that story but it's going to change his ways to listen more and try to gauge more public opinion why do the resort. has listened before but this particular 20 days consultation i'm already explained to you why that is so if you heard one of my explanation it was because that this criminal was to be set free in

september and his going to leave hong kong if there is no law in place that is the reason but and the only reason why they have been insufficient consultation or not the demands from the protesters about what about their dental has already sell the bill that would be the end of it it would not come back right so it's finished it's finished its step and what about the demands from the protestors scrap the bill independent inquiry set school and scrub independent inquiry into public where those already i.c.c. see how innocent of any arrested why why should there be a mistake for the arrest. isn't that erosion of the rule of law you've been telling me that the rule of law cannot be road so you are now telling me i'm not telling you anything i am putting you are you on that demand your asking me about rule of law and your i mean why supporting those around and crimes committed serious crimes committed including we don't like that of course there is

a presumption of innocence isn't there have you have is there often a presumption of the reason i have gone that you've used tape if you watch a t.v. take there's also a presumption of innocence have you watched a t.v. tape yes i have watched t.v. takes up as you see with people throwing bricks there is also a commercial innocent now but it isn't that if somebody has from a brick you're telling me they're guilty and even know you wait for me to answer you i mean why use been so unfair why was i put the questions we tell you why don't look around so the question isn't how i am sorry about my my damndest to try to answer your question i'm asking you if those a clip which shows someone has from a brick that me somebody has committed an offense right now whether that person is rightly arrested or not is for the court to decide so you can say that somebody has been arrested that arrest must be wrong that isn't nothing to do a presumption of innocence you understand that i understand that mr taaffe few days ago you were warning and you were trying to evade the point is that only is that if

you got somebody who would be arrested let the court decide whether he's guilty or not by simply asking that you should let him go without going through a due process of the law is a stream erosion of the rule of law and you are seeing there how on your high horse and you're telling me that the bill is rooted in the rule of law and yet you are pointing to me at the same time that freedom giving freedom or letting the arrest go free is not erosion of the rule of law you holland how could you have such double standard you warned a few weeks ago a few days ago that if things got worse the chinese army might consider taking to the streets you said when there's trouble in hong kong when things turn sour there's violence in our street our fear is that if the police are not able to control what is happening here there's a remote risk the chinese army would get involved. how remote is that risk if it's so i don't like when i do it why did you mention it no i hope you another happen

why did you mention if there's a small fire escape we're trying to frighten people no it's a fact everybody understand it except you you don't understand it hong kong is a place where it is being operating is operating under the one country 2 systems it is a not very successfully is it is a huge political compromise we are part of china under the basic law china has a responsibility to ensure that hong kong is stable everybody who is doing business here want to see hong kong to be stable all right so yes under the basic law there is provision for the the beijing government to interfere if nobody hoped that it would happen i'm trying to say that we are trying to of avoid this happening so i'm not instilling fear into people i'm simply reflecting what is stated in the

basic law and what is the political reality of the situation you said we need we in the days of perfectly responsible thing to do you said we need we in hong kong need to gain the trust and confidence are aging so that they can allow us the freedom of political reform so what about the other way round what about beijing's duty to earn the trust of people in hong kong only one small ways where they have managed only successfully have the one spot where 22 years they have managed it's exists only that's unfair and they've been doing of their most of dr well the internet you know cause all show that people do not do the majority of people still do not identify is just going to face all damaging an example that has worked on this isn't. everybody got to work harder you think the people of hong kong should play nice to their masters in beijing and they might throw them a few crumbs i do use a little use of force words the words i use is that we should communicate with each other and we should instill confidence in each other that's what i'm saying you know understand the difference. well he told me good to have you got that so.

soon. to get.

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this is. from berlin she wants to be the european union leader can she convince the powers that be in brussels germany's. position lawmakers today campaigning to win their backing for her nomination to become the european commission president. victory is not a sure thing will go to brussels and. also coming up it has happened again. trembling in public for the 3rd time within a month and it is fuel.