15 it shows 50 stories and 15 very personal tips cumberlands very best features. book now for planet for our girl max series every week on d w. the government has already shelved the bill that would be the end of it would not come back why should every embassy for the event. isn't that the roshan of rule of law you say you're going to give me time resolute let me finish this is a heated discussion even if you want it there's got to give you a chance to answer like was it a plenty of times what you said i'll interrupt and then i can answer weeks of mass protest in hong kong show no sign of coming to an end but how long will beijing put up with it my guest this week here in the city is running a tong a member of the hong kong government's cabinet and

a senior advisor to its chief executive harry lauder to the author it is now except that the new extradition law which provoked the crisis should be scrapped now and for good. welcomes comfort zone 2000000 people on the streets of hong kong. failures by the hong kong government admitted by the chief executive kerry lam why is she still there why hasn't she was done well i think this is a more complex question than simply asking why did she not resign 1st of all someone said also like you are to somebody fails in there we're not going to know i don't want to argue about a figure but a more accurate figure would be more like half a 1000000. but even then it's a very very large number of people on the street and i think the government accepted that the 2nd thing is that we must understand what the government has been

trying to do. a poll by one of the more mainstream newspapers of the people would turn out in force to march on sunday revealed that 90 percent of the people who march fought. addition bill was so enabled the hong kong government to send people back to china for trial for criticizing beijing now they couldn't be more wrong and this is where they actually extradition because it is just this extradition bill yeah i was a step below about extraditing people who committed a crime across the border outside the border of on call comes to hong kong and we need to have a legal framework to see how we would do what i want to get into that is only there want to get into that deal has got nothing to do with any of the freedoms or core values of the people in hong kong diet so why that is so why should the chivas say

either resign because she hasn't any intention deficiences in the work of the government and you tell me which government leader in the world have not made mistakes this is a these are huge missile insanities a huge mistake look you know and then we had we not as i say i'm not there is not a champion of the liberal party saying that you should resign as well clearly that has got nothing to do with the call there is of freedoms of the people of hong kong now the government has not done except the nation following enough true that is because of the fact that we need to deal with a particular criminal who is about to be released very soon and that basically. impact to the period of consultation now that is not ideal i accept but this is not the sort of thing that you say that because it's a huge mistake therefore the chief executive ought to resign but i don't want to resign maybe i want to resign why why is it why don't you really want it in failure then no i'm not i'm

a slut i'm not admitting i am guilty of and he did kind of phasey admit it deficiencies in the work of the government i personally have to shoulder much of that is nonsense realty as you said i'm sorry just let your child says and anxieties instead i'm sorry i mean you are being unfair really wanting her to be that unfair. no and you're being a little unfair about that she is basically saying that she has not done the consultation thoroughly enough that is not something that any government would take the blame and say the whole government or the leader or the prime minister who ever should resign and i say which government leader in the world have not made mistakes for us to talk now you let me push an expedition do i want to follow up on what you said ok about the executions give me a chance to answer your question i did i gave you a sense then you have chinese of me not in view of you right i give you plenty of china a new extradition bill that was widely seen as an attempt to remove one of the key

legal safeguarding of hong kong's way of life i know you do i know you scoffed at all objections from foreign hostile some of the most respected legal issues and to put it here found innocent nationally. unfairly the present bill sorry the present statue i don't know where you've read it and i probably have not because have you read it you probably wouldn't have put the question the way you did the present law was enacted not by the sale government but by the british colonial government before they hand over which i get your elements not talking about the law of the statue i'm talking about the amendment i'm sure you are so you know i'm talking about the statue you must read the statue all right to understand what it's going not if you haven't even read it you don't understand it and you don't qualify to produce that you cite let me just finish i have not finished you say you're going to give me time resolute let me finish right ok the statue or the nectar by the british colonial government it follow very closely the resolution of the united

nations in 1900 are you saying that the united nation was suggesting that whole culture do something which is contrary to human rights and core values and freedoms that is of course not true now come to the amendment what the amendment did was not to. change the legal framework all it purports to do is to extend the bullet of the statue to china and the rest of the world the state a lot of people aren't buying that you have a hard on car association what you want obviously not buying on bar association as far as facts and not talk about opinion or i talk about opinion that talk a very respected organize ations mr tieless i don't doubt virus so seriously the hong kong law society the law society of england and wales the international bar associations human rights institute fair trials the defense extradition lawyers forum amnesty international human rights watch the speaker of the house of

representatives all of them challenge the suggestion by your chief executive that the amendments you want to make to the hong kong extradition laws are in accordance with international human what it is they also have say it is if you don't the only one who sees the truth nobody is going to anyone who sees the light paralysed correct yeah from a rule of law point of view you would think no one let alone lawyers would object to the cement clerk that's what you say as i say it follows what you know total holydays know nothing if you are the only one who sees the light falls on the united nations provided each member state to do. and we are following the precise regime as the u.s. military and the u.k. regime canadian najim australia dream and nobody is making any comment about those countries how to stay out of that i and i answer silence mr to who think that the judiciary in hong kong is not up to its work its name has to do its not my opinion

the opinion of your own you've got to look at the fact hanukkah song one association is putting a travesty of the facts to me so the hunk of our 2 association is putting a travesty of the high things to say i'm not looking at the law they're not looking at both of these and the lawyers have got it wrong. it's capable of doing a proper job of keeping you say you say to these and any decision that is made by the chief executive is subject to confirmation by the whole no no no you can completely run for god's sake really go and we want to see what is wrong about that rod because you laid out angelo proposed you magnavox wrong now you can do it on a show proposed again and out of exile criminal suspects can be extradited without confirmation by the hong kong courts. can i say you know can i ask you a question yeah you got all the facts wrong what facts are or what fact is if you look at the statute you know that the chief executive has no power to order

extradition is clearly spelled out in the statute for one thing secondly ordered the chief executive can do is to refuse extradition the underside would refuse exactly that under final decision this were refused that's the final decision he can she can he or she can only refuse extradition he or she cannot alter tradition the only institution which can order extradition is to courts to mr tung that the your and bar association points out that the magistrate of parliament i understand and our chairman so not only does a band the magistrate go find the whole thing may say that's not your instruction and who do not agree with this the magistrate are how can i get the question up the magistrate in hong kong says the bar association does not have the jurisdiction to inquire into the quality of justice that the future may go enjoy wrong once surrender why am i going run so we don't want the bar association or the wrong really you are only talking about the committal process yes the law has got 2

processes one is the committal process the other is about save guarding them and the protection of human rights and fair trial which is being provided in section 5 of the statue as the u.k. law society pointed out in so far as the proposals would introduce any human rights examinations at all they are vested in hong kong's chief executive not alone or appear that is wrong it's wrong so the u.k. law society good is wrong please pick up the skirt you have a look before you come to me and ask me questions. you're absolutely right that the judges and magistrates of hong kong wouldn't dream of currying favor with beijing they leave that to people like you. you want to curry favor with holy unfair it is not only unfair to me but this is really extremely unfair to the judges and judges are there to carry out the law if they can't carry out the law they have no

business being judges all right i have no power whatsoever i mean they're vital to the government i have no power because even the chief executive has so has no power conferred by the law i keep telling and i haven't said it starfish and they are enough times for you have to look at the law to understand what are the facts if you don't lose out an organization and so you can turn a lot of people would say yes yes because their opinions matter no i don't think so the facts matter i'm sorry facts matter society here at home you know it does do not outline of the not of these opinions on matters the of the facts and the u.k. law society who writes that the proposals in the extradition bill fundamentally imperil the operation of the rule in hong kong rule of law in oregon they've got it wrong as well you know i think i don't understand why any why why do they think it will imperil the rule of law and on kong if all of that is happening is that the task of scrutinizing any requests for extradition is to be considered by the judges

missa to longer not one not isness of going to say a trial is available in the mainland what kind of fair trial well fair trial what the government has proposed is to ensure that they would be open trial defense and would be a little touch on the mainland yes open towards when do they have open trials on the mainland are you are you letting me answer the question or not you know. priest all interrupt that's very very and polite all right and there have been this is a heated discussion that no no if this is it isn't it this is going to give me a chance to answer my question. wendy of time interrupting than i can answer i'm telling you that the government is proposing to ensure that there will be assurances of open trial the defendant will have the choice of his own lawyer the trial has to be proceeded on the basis that it will be in the language which he understands there would be visitation rights or all these the minimum guarantees of article 14 of the i.c.c. p.r.

do you know what is' is to be are is international covenant of civil and political rights is a charter for human rights the government is saying that mr chairman i was not ratified i'm not with china i'm talking about hong kong because the gay keep it as in hong kong but i'm talking about as one can if they are selling are going to try and offer different sort of about kind of fair trial that define turning can expect in the mainland turn on the mainland if there is no guarantee that there will be the minimum requirements of article 14 of i.c. c.p.o. it is written in the law there then the court has no business ordering a extradition even if a court were to all the next edition the chief executive would veto it because as i keep repeating the telling you that the chivas say it has no power to order extradition but has power to veto an order for extradition are you following that unlikely the chief executive is unlike one to do so i request from china based on what fact you say those are like she's an appointee of china so isn't she so so she

got to stand up to china suddenly and say this is obviously not go through based on what basis do you say that she would not do that based on the human rights record in china as a civil and she did have her rights as shire for that alternative for years ago to china has she however or the initial decision of any sense of it to china. you're told me will you tell me i don't know you might tell me a day that has not been a single occasion that happened we're talking about when it does happen notice i'm not going to talk about where your star events are from doing song did you read the you. latest human rights reports about what happens in a jolly u.k. report in 2011 i'm asking about the future real u.k. reporter trying to live and i must go but you don't lose either one right as you point commission says that it is paramount that you should respect each member states on judicial system even where those civil and political rights and don't use the road you know in china no the continuing to gentian

a trial of human rights lawyer isn't what i say is i'm telling you both in the u.n. resolution and in the u.k. report in 2011 made it very clearly that protection of human rights in their tradition are not mutually exclusive that is why that you've got to frame your legal regime in the way that hong kong is doing to ensure and the gay keeping is in the local judiciary not anywhere else in the world to ensure that any suspect any offender would be entitled to fair trial and protection of human rights when the extradition is being carried out that is the way in which all extradition arrangements mr tuck. is being carried out the well overstepped so no country is different mr tung what expectation can there be of a fair trial in china when civil and political rights according to the latest british human rights and democracy report i don't want is our fence rights continue

to be eroded can i just read what they said the continuing detention and trials of human rights lawyers and defenders lack of due process and judicial transparency remain important concerns i don't want to sound funny how can you have how can you have an expectation of a fair trial for anyone that is extradited i don't want to sound off answer but how can anyone expect a fair trial to be had in syria or iraq. we're not talking about syria and we're talking about mainland china that is essential to me no it's not it's the same guy just say it's not just it's a china now it's a stick with china why do single china i'm told i'm not this is the whole point of their own problems half the time but have been talking of late is they know clawing its own kong hong kong people will apply the same standard no matter who is coming to make the requests be it united case united states united kingdom syria russia china we apply the same standard because this is what the model requires us to do

and we would do it period once you understand the purpose of extradition you would have understood what i'm saying but obviously you wouldn't you know what you want but your guess mistake is that of throwing insults at me what's what's your guess about where this is headed with the hardliners in beijing try to teach hong kong a lesson you know or will they show that they're willing to learn 10 from what's been taking 1st of all the facts say but it did not come from mainland i think the chief executives explain very clearly that it was her own initiative based on the fact that she was asked by the family of the girl who unfortunately was murdered by this hong kong person in taiwan because of the whole injustice of the situation the chief executive agreed to look into it and she was asked to to establish an extradition regime which can apply to taiwan applied to the rest of

the world which includes china but china is very exercised about what's been happening here called it a downright if you a direct challenge to no one country 2 systems if you were right china would not have permitted the chief executive to shelve the bill. rather long will that go on as far as this administration is concerned i understand that it's not going to come back period instead in the last few days or so it's just tell me right if what you say were true why would china do it. the fact is you don't know change and it is i don't do i do more that you do otherwise you would have come and asked me for 4 for an interview would you in the last if you had all the answers you would have come to me with the last few days may come along the hong kong my association has called for a credible commission of inquiry not the police complaints council but a statutory independent body that can compel documents to be submitted and worst witnesses are testify is that going to happen is they're going to be i'm not sure

we should have inspiring are not do you want it to happen because the years are you know i have made clear that i am going in good greenman with that request but the capital. of the eyepiece see the independent police complaints council has already. on a full inquiry there is only one investigation subject which is the police the police has already promised that it would comply with all requests and brought and provide for cooperation the government has made the same promise so that inquiry would be a very sufficient inquiry but if at the end of the day but look at the protests notice then say that's my solution come on now i'm going tomorrow so serious this is not sufficient the only thing you're not you know what to say to quote a by association with a look at the facts and there's a difference but you think it's very much so it's a look at a face look at the for what you pay the bill hamas look at the facts and you have

to i don't know what i said let's talk it rubbish 5 i didn't say that but i don't know what facts they looked at but i'm telling you what the facts are right now if at the end of the day the i.c. i.p.c.c. inquiry proved to be insufficient to quit and of course we can look at to see whether there are other ways to implement or to improve what is being done but inquiry is going to be carried out russell and also you want to read into what the hong kong government did or didn't do what that is being look how it failed. body it's own deficiences no it's another to look at as i indicated that doesn't actually read more but it's going to change his ways to listen more and try to gauge more public opinion why does it long before it has listened before but this particular 20 days consultation i have already explained to you why that is so if you heard one of my explanation it was because that this

criminal was to be set free in september and his going to leave hong kong if there is no law in place that is the reason that and the only reason why they have been insufficient consultation were not the demands from the protesters and what about it donna has already shell the bill that would be the end of it it would not come back right so it's finished is finished a step and what about the demands from the protesters scrap the bill independent inquiry set schooners grip independent inquiry into public workers all right i.c.c. see how innocent of any arrested why why should there be endlessly for the arrest. isn't that erosion of the rule of law you've been telling me that the rule of law cannot be road so you are now telling me i'm not telling you anything putting you are you on that demand your asking me about rule of law and your i mean why supporting those around and crimes committed serious crime committed including we

don't like that fine of course there is a presumption of innocence isn't there for you is there often a presumption of the reason i have gone that you've used. if you watch a t.v. take there's also a presidential live in the snow have you watched a t.v. tape yes i have watched t.v. tapes of those additional people throwing bricks there is also a commercial innocent now but it is a better if somebody has from a brick you're telling me they're guilty and even know you way for me to answer you i mean why you've been so unfair why was i like putting questions we tell you why don't you answer the questions that are on the fire about why my damndest to try to answer your question i'm asking you if those a clip would show someone has thrown a brick that means somebody has committed an offense right now whether that person is rightly arrested or not is for the court to decide so you can say that somebody has been arrested that arrest must be wrong that isn't nothing to do a presumption of innocence you understand that i understand that mistletoe a few days ago you were warning you were trying to evade the point is that only is

that if you got somebody who would be arrested let the court decide whether he's guilty or not by simply asking that you should let him go without going through due process of the law is a stream erosion of the rule of law and you are seeing there how on your high horse and you're telling me that the bill is rooted in the rule of law and yet you were quoted to me at the same time that freedom giving freedom or letting the arrest go free it's not erosion of the rule of law you holland how could you have such double standard you warned a few weeks ago a few days ago that if things got worse the chinese army might consider taking to the streets you said when there's trouble in hong kong when things turn sour there's violence in our street our fear is that if the police are not able to control what is happening here there's a remote risk the chinese army would get involved. how remote is that risk and if it so i hope i got you why did you mention it no i hope you will never happen why

did you mention if this is not finest we're trying to frighten people no it's a fact everybody understand it except you you don't understand it hong kong is a place where it has been operating is operating under the one country 2 systems it is a not very successfully is it is a huge political compromise we are part of china under the basic law china has a responsibility to ensure that hong kong is stable everybody who is doing business here want to see hong kong to be stable all right so yes under the basic law there is provision for the the beijing government to interfere if nobody hoped that it would happen i'm trying to say that we are trying to of avoid this happening so i'm not instilling fear into people i'm simply reflecting what is stated in the

basic law and what is the political reality of the situation you said we need we in the midst of that perfectly responsible thing to do you said we need we in hong kong need to gain the trust and confidence are aging so that they can allow us the freedom of political reform so what about the other way round what about beijing's duty to earn the trust of people in hong kong with one small ways where they have managed in a very successfully has been runs both ways only 2 years they have managed to exist on it as unfair and they've been doing the most of dry well the issue in utah is all show the people do not of the majority of people still do not identify is just now down to 5 years old on beijing and what i work on isn't. everybody will got to work harder you think the people of hong kong should play nice to their masters in beijing and they might throw them a few crumbs i do you say are political reform words the words i use is that we should communicate with each other and we should instill confidence in each other that's what i'm saying you know understand the difference. well he told me good to

have your. slip.

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as it did up the news live from done led to showdown in the gulf britain says a royal navy frigates has driven off iranian boats trying to intercept a british oil tanker iran denies there was any confrontation also on the program. the man at the center of a euthanasia battle in france has passed away vigils have been held for the fall so mom better be in effect is that it states.