but that one little bit to give them i had serious problems on a personal level and i was unable to live there but what i'm going to. want to know their story and for my great spirit fighting the information for margaret. everything. that you think the rest of the world is really that stupid no. question and it's going to be rather uncomfortable for you is there no it's not that all uncomfortable we will see who is less corrupted and who is better managing and governing the country the time east european states of moldova has a new coalition government united it seems only in its dislike of the previous administration my guest this week here in the capital q c now is vladimir cheerful tyree vice president of the outgoing democratic party and a former justice minister with moldova now

a by word for corruption you see ashamed of peace party's record in government. which i will tell you welcome to conflict zone. and place to me here it's discussion your party lost the battle to hold on to power but you deserve to lose in the way didn't you because democracy was increasingly undermined under your watch and there was massive corruption which you did very little about so you deserved to go didn't you really it depends how to look at that and i would disagree with something related to the corruption spot yes indeed i can say that we have lots of critics related to democracy tendencies in republic of moldova they owe to democratic parties and undertook while undertaking their mandate in the governance in 2016 and. a lot in social and economical performances mean for

example the salaries increased in the public area by 70 percent there are a salary still in the pensions last year you were sure in the world that the democratic party was implementing european standards at home that's what you said in september yes here europe was telling a completely different story about the european parliament condemned what it called an increasing backsliding on core values related to democratic standards so much for your european standards it also added that moldova was trapped by oligarchic interests with economic and political power in the hands of a small group of people exerting their influence on parliament the government political parties state of ministration police and judiciary in other words your assurances about european standards were worthless weren't there i would disagree with that because similar opinion this was a political statement and we can have different opinions leaders political statement because it has been done by

a political group it was based on findings that they discovered when they came here many years are talks that they've been having a list again did you see did he show any on evaluation or a some some reports regarding to that because they haven't seen and everything that could be measured has been measured with a significant progresses bards that is that i want the view of the e.u. the council of europe freedom house the u.n. the u.s. state department amnesty international oh i see bertelsmann foundation there was remarkable unanimity about the state of democracy and corruption in this country from there wasn't but let me please explain otherwise if you want to hear me because while i would divide those cine shoes i would divide the corruption and i would divide the democracy why because well talking about corruption since 2016 there were. the most progress is that ever have been done in republic of law in

fighting corruption was the 1st cases where ministers the prime ministers and other very high officials have been prosecuted the u.s. court is elektra of justice now if selective just while one we're talking about the ministers that were in our government i wouldn't say that it was selective because selective means then when you're prosecuting all everyone except your once but it wasn't the case and you also said you undermined the processes the judicial processes that's also the view of the united states well it was some new shoes well but this is not related more than some issues is it still with i know i again there are difficulties in judicial system of course there are but while talking to corruption this was the most fighting period in republic of moldova that's right according to the public perception corruption was the 1st one ranked problem in

2016 and it became the 5th one in 2019 due to the efforts that have been put fighting that in march washington's human rights report effectively highlight it with all the other international organizations have been saying they highlighted torture in your prisons arrest and detention by the authorities restrictions on freedom of the media and serious attacks on people who stood in the way of your party especially lawyers as one un special rapporteur reported lawyers faced politically motivated criminal charges or were threatened each time they defended people with opinions dissenting from the author or it is you were just dismissed and you signed off on this you were quite happy that it happened that this noise should be thrown. well you know it's very fashionable to start victimizing yourself understudying politics while you have some criminal cases on your side.

because for example to do with the charges that well you have this exactly this exactly cases you're referring to 2 cases one of them is related to one attorney a woman that has been committed a crime murder in 191999 the other one is another lawyer they were just referring to 2 cases into cases they refer referring to a pattern the banana i know exactly the cases that they're reference to and the other case is this case of lawyer ridden co who has committed bribes and traffic of influence before starting being the lawyer of one of the people that pretending to be politician so they say we're taking about 2 cases all of them committed crimes before starting coming into the public area where we have a lot of different cases to go through mr secretary why was the international community so keen on seeing you on june the 14th the united states basically said

it was pleased to see you go the state department spokesman said the u.s. welcomes the democratic party's announcement that it's withdrawing from government in favor of prime minister prime minister maya sandu and the coalition formed by the democratically elected parliament the fact is washington couldn't wait to get rid of you could and more importantly it wasn't going to lift a finger to save you was it well no one should leave anything is to say when you were politicians without us it was a coalition created that we accepted the final stage and we transfer the powers of the governance it is could the people who have the comparison of how the car country can be governed by ones and by the others is good for us if you will give up willingly you gave up the rules of national pressure you even got the constitutional court to strip the president of his powers so that new elections could be called for september if we're talking about that is going to have to see

how the. uncivil since the 7th of june and you'll see that we gave the power in a peaceful manner and we give it willingly and we may be as announcements for they said before transferring the power after trying to get the constitutional court to step in and call elections that's what she tried to do which isn't tied to step in any constitutional court or stuff like that because on monday already which was the 3rd day of that announcement of the constitutional court will ready to take the decision to transfer the power and on tuesday which was the 4th day or we already announced that we are willing to stay to discuss how to transfer the power peacefully who trustingly rulings from your constitutional court these days after you stuffed it with your own people who trusts the constitutional court here most of the people trust the creation of court doesn't trust only the ones who doesn't don't like the decisions of that report last year the bottles when foundation said

that the current justice system including the general prosecutor's office the supreme court the supreme judicial council and the national corruption center were largely subordinated to the oligarchy. look who just happens to be chairman of your democratic party although you tell me he's just a down he's just announced that he's really he just announced the hurt but that's not a great record you want justice minister and you allow that kind of state calculation a place i think i think you i took the management of the ministry of justice in 2015 and the end of the year and at that time already they were the statements that the state is captured by the way 2nd at that time already all the support of european union in that area has been refused or suspended. i had the conditionality to approve lots of the reforms in a very short time and i'd managed to do that in 2 years or even less and it was

accepted and recognized now we we have a legislation in the judiciary which is like a piece of the art we have a class of a lot of things to implement to work on training the new judges which have been renewed we have almost 5045 percent of the judge the new ones which came into the system but still we need to train them we need to create uniform practices in that respect and it cannot be done through the night it will take time down was to stop this is a good ordination to the chairman of your pa it was without burning has been foundation i would deserve using actual attention i would disagree to you to make the assessments and the conclusions based on only on the statements of the parties that were on their position at the time it's not because of the terrain their own findings a little black friday i international organizations today saying the same thing today at 2 weeks time since the government has been transferred to the other

parties i can say the judiciary is subordinated to the new government why very simple because it was sufficient the new prime minister to make some statements and of course have been changing their decisions immediately through the night if this is subordination then you have to accept that there subordinated to the new government as well they want to go we have heard that it depends how do you sense that the leaders are demanding a bt and of the judiciary is the author or a tease the nominee syria has been inforced by your policy of using corrupt practices business clan ties and intimidation this was reported the battles believe it is not said released on the phone but they got it wrong well let's let's then break the law to ralitsa and discuss that i misunderstood let's let's discuss that i just stated that the new government. and it would be control of the judicial reign said it's not so if they just made a statement but if they make the statement that you have to revise your decision

and to decide like that and the court immediately is doing that what does it means if not subordination in your understanding. in more than 0 you also watch and you watch mr chip with the politicize ation of the judiciary was an instrument which was often used against mr knox rivals that was the conclusion of the bertelsmann foundation i went from 271822800 thanks to your effort miss one of the economic forum ranked moldova 100 and 32nd the other 137 countries as regards the independence of the judiciary are you proud of that record of course i mind no i'm not but i what they can say is standard what they can tell you is that when we took the judiciary i took the judiciary the trust of the people in the jury share was 7 percent and when i left my position of the ministry of justice was 25 percent yes this is not sufficient but in 2 years time to increase is 3 times it's

something but they return the seat only on and say hearty chairman knows who they gave their oil we knew that's wrong or that's what they said and that's wrong they misunderstood it then they just got it wrong they made up the story is that right is this what you're saying no i'm not saying that i'm just saying that i think it is someone saying that that we had a very poor situation which is not very fantastic today but it has registered a very good improvements in that respect you you deny any wrongdoing by the merits and i'm not i'm not saying that it's not correct just to state their own doings but it is correct to see how the developments and evolution of all of that what about mr plan look you are probably gantry and you can do so than 2016 that he was made the most hated man in the country because people need to find somebody to blame that's it he's blameless now we know one is angel in the liver. iran the new

governments even they all governments even democratic parties the members were nothing jewels as no one is an angel one likely think we are committing mistake was he a crook is he a crook of course it's not a crook. of course it's not a crook it's a person that has ensured a good and efficient governance from the point of view of the social infrastructure problems yes maybe the party didn't focus too much on democracy and maybe the party didn't focus too much on implementing some reforms in like judiciary for example but what he's done improving the life of the people is done a lot and even more than many other governments putting together for the last previous 20 years when the new government came in your party chief then with the plan he fled the country along with a business partner illand saw he was looking perhaps for friends outside but.

he didn't find any duty to find any friends again i would disagree with his statement but because he left the country only after transferring peacefully the governance studio to the opposition or to down to the settlement i don't know let's ask him i am not together said that neither the interior ministry nor the border have a record of him leaving the main is the the new minister of internal affairs made 3 different statements in just one week and all of them conflict in between each other so i would i wouldn't pay too much price to the statements that he made i understand that he's a new minister but he's committing too much mistaken smith and is misleading the public opinion in that respect i have no he isn't coming back you see it's over everyone's had enough of your part let's ask him let's ask him because he is your understanding he's coming back my understanding is that he's coming back as long or when the security arrangements will be done including curium although you refused

for a week to give up your offices didn't you said earlier officials you appointed refused to obey the new prime minister's week on the 3rd day we already announced for the accounting since 8 of food were already announced that we are willing to have discussions to transfer the governess so i would disagree for a run on you put your supporters into the square and there could have been massive violence because the chance for should be peaceful and not should be should be peaceful but it might not be and it was peaceful and try to get into the office that you wouldn't i mean we know they didn't try even to get into the earth as some of them do now unaware he said none of them didn't try to get into the offices they just made some declarations yes different dates could probably to pay one week staying here in those very hard times to turn the stand the situation no one tried and we made all the announcements and invitations to them to start talking and this

was. it's only just for your time is over what means the governess is over it was over on 8 of june yes it's over the new government has promised they'll be no revenge i'm sure you really are already there they are already sure you're relieved to hear that millennial because this is helping them with their inquiries i'm sorry previous corruption is because they harassments public pressure and revenge already is there many of the people already dismissed the professional people which has no links with the parties have been already dismissed from their positions but if you are there already come on this is europe saying now u.s.l. it was they reserve dues of people that file sharing on different reforms and different projects to manage and funding by our development partners their professional smelled like nice like that very thing you did don't they're going to put a spotlight so brutally let's put on the spotlight it's going to be rather uncomfortable for us and no it's not at all uncomfortable because i see many of the critics they

have been done they already be coming to an out opinion because they they criticize not knowing or not going into the details of different projects or and reforms but we'll see what they will do and it's better to judge about them and us in comparison and we will see when how the salaries will rise we'll see how the infrastructure projects will go on how the collections of the budget will be done and then we will see who is less corrupted and who is better managing and governing the country the challenge for this government is to dismantle your system of control over the courts and the criminal investigation bodies isn't it which you controlled basically and which were loyal to your party chairman from 26 dean. transparency international reported your main aim was to concentrate your party's power within the executive criminal investigation bodies and courts it said are

used by this party as instruments to intimidate and make loyal political rivals both at central and local level. so this practice is obvious particularly in relation to local councillors and there's it said that up blackmailed and compelled to join the ruling party that was you i'm very happy that you are making reference to this specific report because usually takes time to to prepare a report and then to make it public and so as it is dated 2016 it means exactly that there all the data is collected are in the previous periods so i will in that case i would just will restate that we took the governance in 2016 only and of course we recognise it was a loss of the problem and this is 27 serious reforms this is our only 17 report not 20 as you mentioned 16 i said from 2016 they said your main aim was this was a report 2 years ago when you were already in the justice department and here let's

come to the flash mailing in compelling mayors and local councillors to join the ruling party again your plan no no fishel claims in that respect have been done or or submitted by anyone is just it's opposition's segment and speculations nothing has been confirmed in time so you think do you think the rest of the world is really that stupid no not a coworker know what's going on don't know what was happened just you were in just one thing just in word or turn the stand the situation is better to have a more in-depth look at the everything and having at least while writing this reports at least 2 opinions at least well we have already quoted from the us state department from the european parliament from trance. transparency international from the west sea. one of the things that came into your area of control was the prisons. why did you allow our system of prison hierarchy

of convict hierarchy why did you why do the guards collude with the prisoners to control the system inside the prison why well actually this is a legacy which we are trying to fight and to fix and if you fail to do much when you are the way to do a lot of things to change or really yes we did a lot to improve the conditions in imprisonments and now we have only 2 prisons that are in a very worst conditions that are once placed we succeeded to repair and not to be the you know in the poorest conditions that could be 1st the 2nd we succeeded to create a system that cares the people in the terms of the health the medicine treatments and which is absolutely different that it really is the council of europe reported last year that one jail soroka prison no doctor had visited in over a year this was last year no doctor had been there over a year they had for medical orders order lease for 800 people you think that's

satisfactory no of course it's not so especially when you watch that never fortunate already not on my watch we are less this is a report last year 28 my last didn't you know last time i wasn't a minister of justice you know that you 1700 yes we were but they were already admitted that time has been transferred to a non political person and a technocrat since 201717 generally in the position of the minister of justice have been appointed only technocrats the people with very reliable and very trustful in the public society endanger national community one of them is an expert to nothing when a transition and the one of the international community you read the reports you see they don't trust anything that's been there i mean shares it in your party it's been more than issue let's talk let's. state correctly let's talk about economic upper for months and social performances and let's talk about those reports because

we focused on those area and there are huge progresses in that respect of course their most criticize their reales for initially was a serious economists in jail who were living in conditions which were said to be bordering on the luck shuras they had divan beds kitchenettes fridges aquariums carpets on the floor widescreen television so somebody in your economy was doing well it wasn't necessarily the poorest section but these people in jail you think that providing a sort of club for senior convicts and criminals they're not going to as part of the justice system and as you said earlier last year european up to european standards when you think in europe you have a presence like this yet not at all and let's go to the prisons to see him to understand that i as a told you it is a poor situation in the prisons but it is much better than it was 3 years ago and while certain about the people staying there is a report last year by the council yes but let's see the report 3 years ago and you

will see a more poor situation then the last year report and year by year the reports are becoming better and better nothing can be change on the report guess was a good number of the room none of them of the time when you were in government now is why the point i made at the beginning is you deserve to be a good people it's really good reports in the economical area in the social area. and none of the questions have been received so far from the area i understand it more pleasing things to discuss everything that could be criticised and we agree with you that those are the areas that have been performed poorly and could be better could be done better and they're doing better but not in there with the speed that we would like it to do because it's not easy to do it is very complicated to do lots of fear for have been put in the respect lots of the investments have been public investments have been put into that area as well but

still we have a lot of things to do until everything for we not perfect that acceptable and you're going to work with this new government even though you've already said it's illegal you consider the coalition to be illegal we said that it was illegal even at the moment when we transferred the governance but we said we work with it but we're going to work whether we said yes because we said at that time you have to fix one deadlock constitutional one. and it has been fixed and immediately as the goes to chanelle court has reversed some of his decisions we said ok now we can enter into the parliament now we can manage position real opposition and constructive all right. thanks very much for being here thank you.

thank.

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