i'm kind of a challenge for you to hold their reach in and they're really. good confusion and fun. from street food the 5 star restaurant tasty taipei starts september 1st on d w. hello and welcome to quadriga the w.'s international talk show coming to you from berlin brian thomas on our show today you've seen them for about 3 months now every weekend out on the streets of hong kong thousands of protesters calling for democracy and the rule of law one protest 1700000 people peacefully staking their claim on freedom police holding back this time with no

tear gas no rubber bullets but will beijing give hong kong the freedom and autonomy it so desperately wants and why is the west been so reluctant to unequivocally back up the protesters and their calls for democracy. our topic today china's power play hong kong for trade talk about this i'm joined by walk away from did abuse asia desk he says china wanted to experiment with the rule of law and democracy in hong kong with one country 2 systems and now also has the make concessions. botches the senior expert on egypt where the bertelsmann foundation base here in berlin he says comes the half percent or all the global competition of systems western democracies should show solidarity and resilience and the ability to learn. and cherry chan is from hong kong. works for g.w.

social media team in berlin she says china's propaganda war is only uniting the people of hong kong and they will not stop viking on the streets until they get a real response from the government. thanks so much to all of you for being here today and to our viewers of course from around the world as well wow if we could start with you you know you say that it's all a matter of of the people talking in in hong kong and of beijing experimenting with this city have they lost control of the laboratory the laboratory that is right hong kong right now for the chinese government are and are events taking on a life of their own there one see it is out of control beijing never controls hong kong the remaining but it's not conscious of the public image of the international words the situation home call is like it is hong kong trying to be the part of

that one country 2 systems to the part of the one of the 2 systems in the world with the demanding a democracy and rule for all this written into law and that's what the dimona beijing is not ready to give them the freedom ok to 2 countries to use 2 systems is one country and one of the systems is clearly totalitarian the one in beijing hong kong has been frayed to this point a baronet you say the hong kong is on its way to becoming a police state. at least the police have played a role in the last couple of weeks that i think has surprised a lot of hong kong is because in hong kong there was a lot of trust in institutions and the police and the police violence that we've seen and that hasn't been independently. researched is something that has shocked. hong kong has and is really at the heart of this conflict which for hunk owners and

knows better than we all do is a conflict about what is city going to be like in the future is it going to be just any chinese city or is it going to remain. a different system ok this point of view is that it's 2047 right that hong kong reverts to complete chinese rule so there's this window of opportunity there a cherry as a hong konger how is this city different from the rest of china. in that race in hong kong. people from there we always say. at. almost the same standard as how the us and woe is seeing it we also know people from china with friends from mainland china what we thought when we discuss we know that we have a friends. for example we always have a relatively high freedom of speech freedom of media we can get access to a face for. the internet without any restrictions which is very different from the

mainland china ok and it's also the court system as well it's been so successful because it has an independent course system there is the rule of law that is also a main difference along with freedom of expression isn't it yeah exactly in hong kong we always trust such a system and we know that it's independent from and ministration we know that we have always trust that the government would not into a city in 2 and a process all and each of the show ok so it's a long way from where we are today to a police state that so many people fear how one of the problems that protesters have been pointing to is the extradition law that the citizens of hong kong if they are charged with a crime would disappear to mainland china basically what's behind these fears of being extradited to mainland china why is that so terrifying for hong kong people

over the reasons pretty clear because home and city are good by law but the mainland china is not the case there for some accused in hong kong the if the. if they go to to meet in china their fear is not very transparency proceeds in the courts that's the main reason for the hope protests but brooke now this bill is dead says the c.e.o. of the country but it's just the beginning of the long protests because the finally the months. democracy is the real meaning like we understand here in west. what do you think what are the chances that this real democracy is how put it as we know in the west can be protected by kerry lamb the current leader of the city of all go. i don't think promoting democracy is the job that kerry has i mean given by the beijing government the basic goal said that potentially hong kong could

have free elections it's not very definite there's it's a it's unclear no but that is what hong kong people have been hoping for the longest time that at one point there will be full democracy and beijing has made it very clear in the last couple of years that that is not going to happen and it's carried. through to no squash these protests some peeps taking says it could happen but. it should because in the basic law if that if gradually it would happen well potentially so we believe that in the end it would happen and we're looking forward to this ok cerium you also pointed to earlier social media that's very much part of china's propaganda warfare aimed at not only the people inside all gone but the mainland chinese as well it shows that beijing really wants to get control of this process the protest process quickly as possible is there a fear in beijing in how this question would apply the use well that that the

protests will will leave hong kong and moved to other parts of the country that we could see protests elsewhere in china as a result yeah. i think the propaganda war by china itself very office laid off a successful in hong kong and it's all very successful in the international media as well because hong kong people have been very used to this kind of propaganda state media they at this they months and people mainly use it mainly see it as a joke more than believing what they are saying yes so and also hong kong people really trying to be they are really trying to get international attention and a lot of protests all guys in other countries as you said but could the social media propaganda. another propaganda lead to protests that will move to other parts of china or do you think that's that's a situation that's to be excluded that these protests are not transferable to the wee gars for example the minority muslims oh i don't think they're going to move

somewhere and chinese cities because it's not going to work because the home call is to a free city you may go to street and demonstration but in china the simple ways we don't know exactly what happened happened really happened in mainland china we don't know what exactly happened why it happens and the police have a very strong hand and they would make you disappear for long periods and that's very risky for all of the parties but it ok we're going to focus more now on the propaganda war being waged on numerous fronts by beijing those fronts include global social media platforms state run media from entertainment to films to internet news sites and of course to state run t.v. as well. this is how the chinese state media are presenting the situation in hong kong as a city in chaos with mass protesters prepared for violence. accuse

of being bandits and terrorists. this is the chinese government's take on the temporary occupation of hong kong airport. we express our strongest condemnation of this new terrorist act and express our deepest condolences to be injured mainland compatriots and hong kong police. the newspapers are also full of images of violence this propaganda seems to be plausible for some citizens who didn't think i think that it's ok to take to the streets in protest in a normal way but you shouldn't destroy public order and carry out violent acts only terrorists do that kind of thing. state media have also been showing these images of troops exercises in on the border with hong kong. but will china really resort to arms to crush the resistance in hong kong. what do you

think about chinese a propaganda aimed at hong kong and the rest of china how effective is that different isn't it we heard from sherry this offer effective in hong kong what about on mainland china do people buy all of that. that's the big question i think the interesting thing and you pointed to that is that. in hong kong it doesn't work and it doesn't work although there's been more than 20 years of strong propaganda strong propaganda in schools and it didn't work and i think this demonstration came as a surprise to beijing because aging thought we have discovered so the big question in mainland china is do people believe all the propaganda yes in a way they do it's what they're fed with but it doesn't mean that they are happy with the system that they're happy with their own lives and that there's not a lot of undercurrents of dissatisfaction that could blow up nobody had

a protest like in hong kong on their books and the big question for beijing is how is it conquering to control its own population ok. what do you think what it is china not getting right about why is the propaganda not succeeding there is it simply that hong kong people have access to western media is that what's going on there there is no saying china's which is very good is like a metaphor for this reason because the asian chinese intellectually writing from upstairs to down serious when they're reading books is always why home cause the hong kong regard hong kong part of bristol there right from left to the right hand side is always safe no i just think in beijing they want to try to into the body's response and how we read that's exactly that they know everything what the party in the states say it's too and they didn't have the 2nd sort of independent source because of censorship that's the reason and i don't see. chinese states around

maybe a is going to have the control they might have a culture of the public opinion within the mainland china but what they want it's have an international opinion a china friendly international piano what they're trying to float over the the facebook and twitter ok. what do you think of propaganda is not going to work what are the options for beijing to get hong kong in line. to answer all that the months often come people 1st of all this is i think in every mind of this and they know very well what they want and what they're fighting for and then i'm going to stop until they get that the months i'm set and also there's one thing about. a public opinion in china maybe chinese government think that they could control the public opinion but the fact is that chinese people they are so afraid to speak out that it's never we are never able to get what they're really thinking because they

cannot speak on social media they cannot speak on camera so maybe they're really thinking like hong kong people just that they can speak out maybe they want the same freedoms but we simply don't know that ok well the chinese communist party is track record on respecting human rights is of course dismal the occupation of tibet destruction of its culture in term of devolve or a 1000000 we muslims of course as well and the bloody suppression of the democracy movement at tiananmen square in 1989 now this was the central point of. efforts to crush the human rights movement 30 years ago and it was a savage reality when tanks literally rolled over young pressers protesters in the square of heavily peaceful we all remember that in tiananmen square young men and women who had the audacity just like the courageous citizens of hong kong today to

call for their voices to be heard to demand that their voices matter just as much as the highest functionary in the communist party and that all people must be equal before the law that will is what it was all about back then it is now and the question is those voice those voices 30 years ago they were drowned out in blood we haven't heard them since then not in the way that we're hearing them now at least in hong kong. it's a big question i know but after looking at the images of tiananmen square from 30 years ago burner if we could start with you should we be concerned about the possibility of another tiananmen square in hong kong i think we should be concerned but i don't think it's very likely tenement is still a troll mo for the chinese communist party. beijing knows that it would be drastic if the p.l.o.

a the people's liberation army actually went into hong kong and i don't think it's necessary nowadays because the party has different means of putting people under pressure and it has all the technical means it has the companies that are being put under a lot of pressure now cathay pacific and many others so i don't see a big likelihood at the same time i don't see a very good outcome for the hong kong people it's going to be a very unhappy ending a very unhappy ending ok what do you think that means gerry what would be a very unhappy ending have you excluded as barrow it has the possibility of another gentleman square i think hong kong people they're very well aware that china is trying to scare hong kong people with violence and a possibility of sending the army i think many of them just try to ignore the fact or even if they know about this they would think that they have nothing to do this if it ends up like this they would they would take action but then. they only

demand is to have answers from the government what do you think oh i don't i don't think this. happened again with china sort of years ago is was complete different from the china today because channels that's always says it's now a responsible big nation the international word and they're going to use force because in the international conflict china always says we want peaceful meaning to solve the problem they can be that china says we now have a problem i hope becky art i'll just make my soldier suit or to give it clears i just know probably more. than the bow and not the them and is china's going to celebrate 60 years of funding of the people's republic china beginning of october. that's coming up yeah i don't believe they're going to be have a very very bad image in the international press when the pira is marching to hong

kong ok so china plays a very long game though the communist party in beijing. if we look at the past if we look at what's happened in tibet what happened at yemen square the internment of the weak corps i mean beijing is not adverse to reverting to force at the end of the day it could have would be because hong kong has nothing legal framework this is a part of a not a system the legal frame with sess the peary could be sent to hong kong if the c.e.o. of the leader of hong kong officially a speeching to do that about of not sink caroline as the leader of the city is going to do that ok well how is the west responded there's been a mixed response french and german leaders have called for dialogue about the situation the u.s. congress has condemned china's heavy handed police response president trump has called on the chinese president to exercise restraint. but like to see hong kong

worked out in a very humanitarian fashion io prisoner g. can do it he sure has the ability i could tell you that from personal logie certainly has the ability to do it if he wants to so i'd like to see that worked out humanitarian fashion i think it would be very good for the trade deal that we're talking about. jerry i believe is only donald trump responded to this in terms of a high level world of politician is the us the only country that can bring pressure to bear on beijing i think home people are trying to. the international community not. only the u.s. but also. to put pressure on china but they also very well aware that only if it's only what it would like. even if international coming. if there are no other economic sanctions all. that what's with them mean

anything ok what do you say. expressing concerns kind of pressure and china has to syria's take taking to consider. as anxious not a way out a way out would be that beijing hong kong they going to negotiate in the framer bung country to systems about the way the timetable at least how the democrat democracy could be implemented in hong kong like a direct like a general election ok i don't know what i'm listening to terry though that's already been decided just 2047 when china resumes control of hong kong until then the chinese people or the people of hong kong rather want democracy the way i'm hearing you is that gerry that's non-negotiable yeah because for us we don't believe what we're trying to. the extension of on country to a system we don't want to live that. by. the way it will become chess and not the

city of china we want to have an extension we want to have the 2 system for africa ok the 2 system forever let's take a listen now to some of the protesters and what they have to say about their hopes their fears and their dreams from. the proponent of the movie come out to protest and the more people will be arrested but we still will not leave until we get what we want. or the. dream isn't one of those and most all talk no it's a lot more than he knows the north pole pulls of the spoils you just. review these he recalled for them to do this we can put on more of them but if we use these for the most of overseas we're different people. share the same values as us and e.u. that we fight for democracy we fight for justice and so we pull out those countries

and then go and speak up for. ok after listening to those protesters are what we're seeing in hong kong or is it something that's shaping up to be another clash of cultures on one side clearly a one party it is a logical system on the other a multi-party democracy that supports the rule of law is this a clash of cultures that we're seeing take place focused on hong kong that has to do with china. i prefer the term competition of systems none of us has an interest in a real clash but definitely in a global situation where we have established western democracies on the one hand on the other hand we have a rise of or to retire in systems. china and that is part of the conflict that is playing out that is part of why the u.s. is getting involved on a high level because the u.s.

and china have this trade and everything else will going on so more trouble for xi jinping is something that donald trump obviously enjoys but it's also something that concerns us in europe because in hong kong we say we see the playbook that china is using to handle descend and cold for democracy and that is a much much broader question how is it more of a clash or a competition and i prefer the word to the term co-existing because the system should be cooling systems and what china doesn't want is that the between the want the 2 systems that one system is challenging the other should be a coexistence that says to keep the whole one country stable cherry's the west's approach right now a good one should the west back off of void provoking china not looking like it's being involved in the protests right now. speaking from the perspective of person

off cause we would like the west to speak out law to give more pressure to china but that may be in the best interest of the obvious let's think on trees because of all the other reasons because of economy because of trade but then if we had just thinking about the value of the milk with the end favor then obviously the west has this responsibility to fend them how should the how should the west stay up stand up what does it need to do to show to the rest of the world that it indeed believes in the value. on which it's based i think showing solidarity is important i think honesty is also important i would be very happy for leading european politicians to come out and say we support this this is illegitimate show of concern by the hong kong people china is trying to undermine the legitimacy of these protests and we should show no this is just a minute on the other hand we should also be very open and saying. you can expect

this from us but you can expect more we have interests in china we are in a very different very difficult situation this is how far we can support you but please see the complicated situation that we are and ok our last question to you do you think this is going to end peacefully you are promoting a code system so the 2 systems is a go dand well believe the going to end well because a single way out is. hong kong beijing and that's that they have to the homework they have to do right now and sit down at the table and start talking that's right shari we can talk more some point about extending the freedoms but past 2047 are out of time though i'd like to thank all of our viewers from around the world for joining us on quadriga today and of course our guests here as well. i'm dr thomas for all of us thanks so much for being with us.

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