doris moment arrives. joint direct attack on her journey back to freedom. you know we're an interactive documentary. returns home on d w dot com. we can make china a peaceful country if you ever said no to beijing yes many times i'm telling you the facts why don't you list the politicians in taiwan being out campaigning in presidential primaries ahead of next year's election with the topic of relations with china very much on the agenda of our guest this week outside the capital. who's been seeking the nomination of hughes probe aging party the kuomintang. pushes with increasing urgency for reunification on the taiwanese continue to

reject its. party to offer. the way welcome to. thank you very much for inviting me. you said the only way to resolve antagonism between china and 2 i one is to talk and to love you have to know your lover china that is threatening taiwan both verbal and militarily and holding a sword over your head continually how do you love what world does your impression actually if you talk to some chinese in mainland china as long as you don't support separation from china they are not treat you like that they are not attack you also don't say the wrong thing other was right and you know you are normalize that you think that's a normal way to live the power across 180 kilometers of the straits as to you if

you say the wrong thing you finished why do you think i don't think it's that serious you have the series you keep saying i think you have to talk to each other if you try to visit china so call the china we call the mainland ok we are taiwan our mainland we together is a china is a one china war if you think the threats from china is so serious as i want why do you european people all the people around the world are all the members up in the e.u. and try to work with china try to have dialogue with china try to solve problems it's true that you know that as well as i do it's not a human rights record is their work and its trade and we can do that too apart from trade what exactly does democratic time i were having common these days with one party communist china you have free elections yes you will change your party in

power they don't you have independent courts they know you have a free press they don't you can speak out against abuses of power and they can't what on earth have you got in common with mainland china. i think we should emphasize differences. go there work with them be their friends be their brothers and change that instead of being their enemies go there walk with them you can change like what do you were doing with them now what are you going to do a country about human rights what on earth in china is that you can change them what on earth is the evidence what you see the trade surplus china with malin rights you see a lot of changes in hong kong recently why china is not using force to press down be demonstration why they compromise why because they seek opportunity to prove they can change they came pruitt will come on to hong kong a little later i want to go into some detail on that but the serious issue is the

military pressure from china is that even 2 years ago your government's national defense report highlighted concerns that chinese military activity near taiwan posed an enormous threat to security in the taiwan states now just a few days ago you had washington saying that china stepped up its pressure seen the largest increase in military activity around taiwan for 20 years as you and you think that's meaningless why us say china is going to interfere in the lecture in tell you why and so us is coming here to interfere and. you happy with these bullying turnouts because that's what they are not happy about bullying thing but i'm not what i was doing i'm happy about you know we can do persons with each other we can ask of china to make changes we are the only people on earth believe that we can make that happen we can make china

a peaceful country where you look back at the history who are the invaders who are the invaders japan right who participated the wars in asia. if you want to live in history do you want to live in the no i want you to live in the present in modern this one i'm sure people i want to i want to make history clear those who are going daters ok if you want to be someone's enemy then they will be your enemy if you want to be someone's friend always following your ideas because you have race if only light ok let me tell you one wild thing why us is selling our 16 to taiwan instead of 35 and the us is selling f. 35 to korea to japan to singapore to other countries why the united states gave the early island to to japan instead of taiwan it was our territory why the us is doing that to taiwan this show.

but as president of the taiwan foundation for democracy said last month that more and more taiwanese feel the nation is now on the existential threat and you seem to be out of touch with that feeling totally hoochie you don't feel angry i think you know the reality i feel the reality i know how to deal with the chinese in mainland . i know what's the facts i know you have to give your given you won't have to deal with them as a politician i tried to deal with them when i was the mayor here at the the big city mayor i work with the city in one gene i try to communicate with them i try to work with them try to ameliorate carbon emissions ensues environmental issues education will work with them what about the don't quite match it front where they continue to squeeze you where they ramp up the pressure where they try to persuade countries to drop their recognition diplomatic recognition that you did that you

not curiosity china didn't remember this you lost anything in 28 teams for the right to chinese russia you know about the intersection using the engine thankyou you recognize china you don't recognize the the republic of china you will recognize it because if i was writing about republicans and we were talking about china is taiwan we were their representative of china before 971 and the un i talk. about in history and the sense of i'm an artistic you know i'm telling the fact we exist here the are we seeing this is here and that's what you called the taiwan but you never knew i could not as the hour see here you recognize the p.r.c. rates what in the e.u. when i read an article recently we hear to one china policy as to regards to taiwan and hong kong and i say i think you should be defined like this we are here to one china policy as regards to mainland taiwan hong kong and

a markup was to show you're not talking about china that continues to thwart one's participation in international organizations like the world health organization and interpol for instance you want to be members of those organisms want to sign up as well i mean if you're going to help us is trying to stop it why you agree. as you know having like you never criticize a child maybe i just as i ask a question everybody i think when you say dr who i know no men trying to read a letter i didn't say that we've read a lot of i have the luxury of science to express my opinion about china it's not time we started to set up this is wrong this is not tell you i have here one more thing the un the e.u. even germany you recognize the p.r.c. you don't recognize the scene and i truly hope one day you'll recognize the hour

see you know how to participate doubly h. o. ok i and you see the chinese on the lock about you know what we have a lot of investigation to try to talk about we were talking as what we should try scenarios result i didn't see it can be such great reality that candy did that candy tried to talk to mainland china time they tried to sound trite yet they tried to do that us but it's a magic show especially today h. o. and i see a whole mr show beijing is clearly losing patience with taiwan and while you dream of some vague love in between taipei and the mainland china is crystal clear what it wants from you and that's reunification and it refuses to rule out the use of force to get it doesn't it and you live with that and you normalize that on a daily basis ok in our consciousness saying to the not you can't come dancing you could ask for the constitution ok there's only one china policy. and that

includes mainland taiwan hong kong and in my car that's in our constitution we should by and by our country's constitution are right you're being told by xi jinping as you were in january unification is an inevitable requirement for the great rejuvenation of the chinese people he said taiwan should accept that it must and will be reunited with china whatever talks you've been having with china hasn't got them out of the vat idea and how many people in taiwan want that the unification under 3 percent do or about going to try to worry about what the rand paul think about you don't know you've already got people up i think but don't worry about their threatening words why not just stand up to those threatening words what we stand up to you won't we stand up to that but you know i have a cigarette remember iran must and well ok we united with china have you got them out to me have you tried to take a lot of our constitution have you tried to take

a look of morse to show you are looking at what china is now saying our laws and in our constitution we want a peaceful relationship we want to unification. the people who go through the people don't that's in our law and the constitution people take that it doesn't matter what their country why they want to try to amend the constitution that's your perception our people here want to have a peaceful relationship with the mainland and we want to make money we want to do business together we want to have a democracy in the future in mainland china but not fighting against them not taking down s. and anomie trying to be their friends and tragic change them by participation as like what you do elsewhere do you know that's working so well the the reality is mr joe the push on unification puts your party the kuomintang into

a very difficult position doesn't it your veteran china expert suchi actually said that he said she jinping took away all the space for ambiguity and that puts us the kuomintang in a very difficult situation that difficulty being that your party is being told get on with this by china and you don't have a policy of standing up to it do you do have a policy. i declared that i claim that i want to unify china i want to unify under taiwan the last young chance for your 3000000 people what i was against the courage is made my partner see i don't see one percent as it's fantasy you have to remember the whole story not happen. in the world you have to understand the history in the world what's happening now unification separation. yes yes that's the process unification separation separation unification. that's a track of the history but there's one thing very important i also learned runs

never mind the track of westerly track of mystery is just a word track of you know you just know it's the fact the question is what people want to know human nature is the vast majority of your population do me a favor wants unification to me i know have you ever stood up to china i stand out of you understand you answer them i stand up for the republic of china have you ever said no to beijing yes for many times what's wrong with human rights issues through yes really yes because when cracking down when you know the facts it was. actually an accident happened that was 30 years ago i'd be told them i had 2 years whenever i went to china i told don't you need to introduce democracy to your society or they're listening you know the u.s. attorney so once you the 1st of them was crackdown in 25 years taking place on human rights activists human rights watch reported last year human rights defenders continue to enjoy arbitrary detention imprisonment and force disappear yes and you

say nothing about that. have you heard i said anything about that i get just now i even told them i even told them because you don't know my history the old in with them i have the many dialogues with them i told them you have to improve that's human rights that's international standards of treating your people i told them to ok i have to tell you one thing if you don't participate if you don't join them if you don't treat them like they can improve their nothing good is going to happen and what i did live here it's a fine line between that the peace movement isn't a yes it's a very flexible fine line it's very and beat us but you have to do that from your heart. people know that but never spoken up for the tiny taiwanese democracy activists leming che it's more than human chains more than 2 years since he was forcibly disappeared you haven't heard of him believe me chair it's more than 2

years since he was forcibly disappeared by police in china's grown province and charge was subversion of state power he's a citizen of taiwan you don't talk about you don't even know he's let me know he's in terrible conditions human rights groups around the world have been campaigning for his release no one of our governor sentenced to 5 years in jail can't get phone calls can't get letters 4 times his wife was prevented from from going to china to visit. and you know his rights of being around 20 years ago i tried to talk to chinese commoners to release and as suspects a lady who just got married and was released recently i talked to our government. when calming down was the ruling party and they didn't step in they

didn't try to rescue her she was sentenced to death however in jail for 20 years and just a year ago she was released probably just at the in this year she was released and look what the people here have done to help human rights you know we should try to work together and we should try to talk to them and what the government here do let's talk about hong kong again you mentioned earlier the interview and you were you were praising china that they had shown restraint with the demonstration not praising them for that who started this in the 1st place ok that's the law right. for what the demonstrators will tell you that it was a constant erosion of their freedoms under the one country 2 systems formula that forced them onto the streets anywhere the denial of universal suffrage the

kidnapping of booksellers the banning of a political party the prevention of elected legislative council is taking their seats because they didn't like the politics that constant erosion of freedom under the one country 2 systems that's the system that she is offering you one country to nurse them i suggest you take a look what's been happening here in taiwan in the arrow see the ruling party d.p.p. who claimed they protect human rights they have to say with no i have to tell what embarrassing thing happening here that's the reason why it's so embarrassing because our ruling party is trying to act martial law here doing something even worse and there is one lawyer related to national security you know that's what they are doing here our ruling party here in white of course we criticise the hong

kong government especially the council tried to establish a law which your hong kong residents disagree and doesn't trust sold out the show you the latest television show back to your chief executive kerry lam the chief exec she's beijing's appointee of russian history to be appointing even so-called elected by some hong kong representation is. more ask hong kong people as from people is their democracy in syria system asking from people to come back to the question and this is the one thing is important they withdraw. a lot draft rights they've suspended this is it is not they still there said they have said it's day said they would drop because they did something wrong there in the meat i think there's something proceeding with it but not now that's that's what's happened before now they say they were. you're satisfied it's over now i'm not

satisfied about that i'm worried about what's happening here in taiwan and the one country 2 systems formula that she jinping has offered to taiwan we do ads read the that or that's not going to happen that's not going to happen then you mean hong kong is not going to have a different systems from china system these are the last thing i think the system what should exist because that's the the window shop for chinese they should to show that improvement of democracy to the world hong kong system is a joke is will give it a try to violate that it's going to embarrass them just to show isn't a lesson that you should take away from hong kong is that china doesn't live up to its promises of democracy isn't that the lesson i think and i think talking and wanting i love china i don't live up to the note on this i have to think we should

try to change then we should try to improve them you should 1st single into them what how do you know i didn't say no to them. doing that i've been doing that for so many years every time i visited china i talked to them. i think improve your system especially a democratic system and they step up their interference well. look at the propaganda war that's being waged against taiwan a study by the university of gothenburg in sweden said you're one of china's major targets for spreading this information happy about direct interference well i think . we all see so called the taiwan should be more more opened to outside world especially with western society or avoiding we question are doing is this information came here while china is trying to do that but other countries also try to do that too i think we should take active actions in solving their problems

well they're open society but not open enough to the outside world to take a look how many english speaking channels here so take a look about how many how much international media are existing here in taiwan we're not exposed enough to the outside world however the politicians here tried to close the door. try not close you know we china one we. know who we or you know we we emphasize local lies ations so much instead of internationalization that's what you don't want to see were going on here who do you know when you really miss oneself 1st you don't want to admit it now we want to improve ourselves too we also want to improve china remember i want to take active active process active approach to china to make china change this idea that you can

make sure that chile which frankly is pretty much of a long shot why should people vote for your purty. well if you're selling fantasies like that why no one are selling fantasy. be realistic it's a difficult competition. why don't you try to realise what p.p.p. can do p.v.p. is the one who came to the really action why don't you take a look what we're fighting for where fighting for true democracy here and good b.b.c. rule in democracy when trying to build up a peaceful relationship with china with the mainland we're trying to create a better society here we're trying to introduce your systems your values here to taiwan we're trying so hard to do that if we want to come dance of people here that can keep this country perfectly well then we have to respect the

democracy we have to open our society to the outside world we have to be honest to our people the bad by our ruling party is cheating our people well the bad news for you is that a plurality of taiwanese 45 percent don't identify with your party or the ruling d.p.p. they're going to take a look at you're right you're right they don't trust the parties here yeah they don't trust us they don't trust them they don't trust our party you're not saying anything that they think is relevant what i believe they're what they're saying is relevance we realise the fact already people don't trust the parties here people don't trust the politicians here which is why i would think i trust you i mean you you said in the 2nd probably debate in the social primary you claim that the number of times when these people below the poverty line was believed to be around 3800000 . which is suppressed simply not true which is simply not true it's true and if you

research you know essential says taiwan proportionally contains fewer people living in poverty than any other country and i know nobody almost no time no i mean i met them in less than 2 years on those old us and to me patients lee you know when i was the mere entirely county. they are around one quarter of the students can afford their lunch that's one quarter in a few times that proportion to the total population here in taiwan and tell me in fact and some light that's very low i'm telling you the fact that's not the facts that's the fact i'm telling you the fact why don't you listen almost no time when he is live on less than $1.00 us dollars a day that's noble part actually that is that clearly you have a poverty that's growing population of poverty is different really my definition of what you are going to not know you write yes relative to every minute yet that's my

definition and ubiquitous as my donation you live in so i did tell you if any student cannot afford their lunch then he's and his family is living in poverty that's my definition if it all goes wrong here in taiwan and she jinping loses patience and somebody says something they shouldn't say. and china looks as though it's moving towards an invasion would you fight for taiwan. or not where do your ultimate loyalties lie mr cho loyal to our country the republic of china well loyal to our constitution you would you fight your show you yes yes yes if they violated our constitution to preserve and protect our people and defend our people i'll fight against china so she we're going to have your comfort zone thank you very much as the x

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kids todd to take steps for and the face time in your up just such thing up nothing and the fine for the troops as hard to overcome pound trace and to knesset the a mug it's time for work double and he dove and use coming up ahead mines welcome to the neural max

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say it's one of the most horrific cases of child abuse they've ever seen 2 men age 56 and 43 have been sentenced to prison terms today for sexually sorting and grouping more than 30 children some as young as 4 to one questioning. why they were allowed to get away with it for so long. also coming up. growing more than britain those lawmakers did from mr bowen.