i don't know how to do it soon you need to be going. to school for the i. subscribe to the documentary. hello and welcome to quadriga a decisive showdown over breakfast at this week as members of the conservative party deserted their prime minister dealing him a harsh defeat that deprived him of his parliamentary majority against boris johnson's will some members of his party voted for

a bill to stop his do or die pledge to leave the e.u. at the end of october with or if necessary without a negotiated deal with brussels could the last minute revolt save the u.k. from a no deal bracks it and even topple the prime minister at the end of the road for johnson that's our question for today and here are the guests who will answer it alex forrest whiting is a d.-w. reporter and a former westminster political correspondent she says the country's parliament and the conservative party are tearing themselves apart over breakfast at prime minister johnson appears to have lost control and features taylan is with us he's an expert on business and economics who formerly wrote for the german newspaper steve bell and the bitch and he says democratic convictions are more deeply rooted in the political system of britain than some populists seem to believe and it's a pleasure to welcome john edwards he is an e.u. citizen with you. a passport to visit berlin he's a blogger political advisor and

a member of the green party he says boris johnson is turning the conservative party into the breck's of party but this week has shown that it's a dangerous game so let me start out by asking you alex you say that boris johnson appears to have lost control but appearances can be deceiving how does he actually perhaps overplayed his hand or could it be that he is playing into the hands of his opponents and could you wind up winning the endgame alternately well i think we can write him off and and this is my point particularly because he has some very strong characters behind him who are very good at the dock she say so we can't write him off at the moment it looks like those who are opposing a no deal breck's it including those who want to remain in the e.u. are winning the game they've always they've done very well in parliament by

defeating him in these votes this way which has been a very difficult time for the prime minister given how he has been promised if a such a short amount of time so it has not been an easy week for him but he is still prime minister and he does still have cards up his sleeve i believe and i do not think that we can say that this is the end game for boris johnson let me ask you just very briefly could one of those cards still be snap elections yes absolutely i think that we will be see an election in the u.k. the question is when will it be are we talking in a few weeks if you days are all we talking about a couple of months ok we'll come back to that point in just a minute let me ask you john wirth highly respected tories were kicked out of the party this week for defying boris johnson now you say he is restating the conservative party into the bracks party but. in fact britain already has it party

namely the new party founded in january by nigel thrush so wouldn't it rather than boris johnson's reconstituted conservatives be in the best position to rally those who want to leave going forward what you say there is exactly what nigel frogs would like like to think bear in mind however that british elections require lots of seats on the grounds lots of local campaigners and that's what the conservatives at least bolt for breaks a party is much more of a media operation it's very it's very polished in the way it comes over but it can actually do election campaigning on the ground and that's why essentially boris johnson's pitch is essentially to lose votes as to who voted for the brakes and part of european elections in may come back to the conservatives with a real break city is now and to try is trying to unite all of those programs that voters behind the conservative policy he thinks the next election will be forced on bret's it rather than being forced on other topics and that's he's clear pitch come

back to the conservatives we have the true bright city is now ok thanks very much and again we're going to take a deeper look at that in just a moment the detail in your opening statement said that democratic convictions are deeply rooted in the u.k.'s political system but as many of us have discovered over the last 10 days many of those conventions and convictions are not written down as black letter law and doesn't that in fact make it very difficult to rein in an unscrupulous demagogue of the sort that boris johnson is proving himself to be if but my confidence is that the machinery of democracy has worked for for them for 400 years and and there may be a solution suddenly we have a snap election out of it is there's no majority in either labor and all the tories united and the rest. have

a majority then suddenly another person who is somewhere around turns up and can unite. behind him and then suddenly we are in a new situation my trust is that the british political system and the put it too close for whatever we've seen in the last 2. years has a. can find solutions will find solution because it's deeply rooted in the well political senses and heart of the british me just push a little harder on that point because what we certainly heard over the past week as that those conventions depended on the members of the political system says try being 2 and written rules of fair play and integrity and would you really say that boris johnson and the people around him are doing so no mo meets no but i. advocated that out of the snap election that was becomes a no majority for mr johnson but suddenly the country from june night's hine someone who has not been a candidate before that is easily possible and that is sort of when to dish it is

deeply rooted in the british political so it might come up optimist ok i was just going to say the problem with that is that we that we have seen in the past few months in british politics m.p.'s leaving either the labor party and the conservative party and trying to set up a new party to do exactly this and it has not done very well they have some of those members have now left and joined the liberal democrats which is the 3rd party and this is the problem with the british political system at the moment it is very adversarial it is based on a 2 party system and that is why bracks it has proved to be rather complicated i want to come back to that in just a moment but i'd really like to 1st bring in a report that gives us a somewhat deeper look at the politician who seems to hold the u.k.'s fate in his hands at the moment. his career as breck city

a leader launched with online. the u.k. was obliged to pay the e.u. 350000000 pounds each week his campaign claims that was hugely exaggerated nevertheless his anti e.u. stance helped him become prime minister in late july a new partners of rebuffed his attempts to renegotiate now boris johnson is steering the country towards a no deal breaks it. we're leaving on the 31st of october gives us we will see any attempt to go back to. that referendum to stop parliament from passing a law that would rule out are hard granted he ordered a 5 week suspension of the house of commons but the prime minister faced a huge backlash when massive protests erupted in many british cities is boris johnson harming british democracy.

let me put that question straightaway to john wirth whether boris johnson is harming british democracy is certainly some people said as he suspended parliament essential sending it on a forced and lengthy vacation that that amounts to a cook i think to call it a curious perhaps exaggerating it somewhat but nevertheless. in the parliament not sitting for 5 weeks in the middle of a political crisis is an extremely worrying development and it's basically said boris johnson can avoid parliamentary scrutiny so essentially he's trying to push parliament away because he knows the parliament aarons don't really support his brakes at plans now what we're seeing this week and we'll see more next week at least is opponents fighting back is trying to use the little time it's got available to bind boris johnson's hands as much as possible but it's a very delicate situation and we're not yet certain whether parliament will actually win the battle against helen let me ask you a devil's. question you know the british have been going in circles for the past 3

years essentially said that he agreed on breck's it or since the referendum a devil's advocate might say look you know what it's time for strong leadership even if it is a bit unorthodox. sound rational but it isn't because the. but your system doesn't know and that's non-stress what you said before coalitions any in wartimes political parties have united in a coalition government which is the normal procedure in effect as in europe and around the world that maybe we have steering in this sold off a crisis situation because if it's not the leader of the labor not called and somebody else comes out of it out of the dark or all of the right and forms this and that we need in this crisis situation a coalition government is actually if you look at the industrial economic consequences of what is happening after no deal breck's it all breaks it will it

will the country will suffer the common people will lose money and the money which is in the city the financial review is going to go away we're going to take a closer look at that as well but let me stay with the point about unscrupulous politicians and what they mean within the kind of political system that britain does have alex you referred i think in your very 1st answer to some of johnson's advisers in practitioners of the dark arts i assume you were referring to mr cummings and maybe you can tell us a bit about what you're bent yes so dominate cummings is boris johnson special advisor and he has. become quite a big name amongst british politics for many years but also among the british public because a lot of finger pointing. is going on at dawn and coming saying that he's the man

responsible for a lot of this he was the man behind the vote leave campaign back in 2016 for the referendum that campaign succeeded that is why the u.k. is leaving the view and everybody many people thought that that wouldn't be possible but he turned it round his way is to make bricks it happen and he has is the man behind boris johnson making sure that breaks it happens using the phrase this is what the people voted for back in 2016 this is democracy so you talk about boris johnson being on democratic or they will say no we are doing what the will of the people called for back in 2016 and this is democratic doesn't it cummings i myself have had some some dealings with him the 1st time i met him i had a night she even know who he was but i had been interviewing the cabinet minister michael gove's who he then what for i had all stim

a couple of questions that michael gove didn't like and he told me he didn't like them he walked away and suddenly the 3 men came towards me one of them was dominic cummings who swore at me and told me i was whatever journalist absolutely furious told me i couldn't use this interview. which was then used and so so so then so seeing things happening with him swearing at m.p.'s on the phone we're hearing about including the rebels marching out an advisor to the chancellor that's the finance minister because apparently she wasn't toeing the line you know all these stories that we are now hearing is very much what well certainly i experience some of it but what we have known in westminster for some for many years and he has one aim and that is to get it over the line so dumb that cummings was part of the mystery to read that. essentially created a red pro live campaign for the referendum that was based on lies we heard that in

our report as well. certainly boris johnson has shown himself to be perfectly willing to resort to lies from time to time to get what he wants is he to be believed now john when he says that he can get a better deal out of brussels this is one of the things that he has been saying to sort of. swayed concerns that. britain could wind up in a no deal situation he's been saying look i'm on the right track i can get a deal there is no evidence whatsoever that he is on the right track this was a question that came from a labor leader corbin in all of the debates earlier in the week. could you show us some proof of how these negotiations are working out and crucially can you show us how you're going to solve the northern ireland border question because boris johnson keeps on attacking the so-called northern island barksdale that's basically the system to prevent there being a whole a border and island off the brakes it and that's been so the crucial point where

boris johnson said we're not going to agree to anything with all the open it says ok so if you're making progress show us and boris johnson just bluffed he have nothing to say there is no evidence whatsoever boris johnson is just trying to threaten the e.u. he is not going to the e.u. with any sort of sensible and worked out proposals and the e.u. is sitting there going well what we make of this how do we possibly deal with someone like that who's essentially trying to threaten us rather than negotiate with just him and now speaking as a german looking at this situation and also with an incoming head of the e.u. commission who is herself a former german politician what do you think how much leeway and how much political will is there in brussels to try to find a different solution for the so-called irish backstop i do think there still is. a portion of goodwill in brussels not to have the situation deteriorating and.

boyce is in brussels saying maybe we were not totally corresponding to prime minister may at the time ever she wanted to get it through the house we could have been more generous and so i think even with us and on the other side if there is something russian along the way we could just i mean is there any real opening if you look at the law here we have a very clear law that any change in ireland borders must be agreed by the irish people that is law how can brussels possibly offer anything different than what has been negotiated so that i mean they're always ok no question but so solutions which have been discussed in there because what everybody i don't know about mr johnson but the rest of the civilized world in but not once is a restart of the irish catholic and protestant northern ireland the troubles as it

was cold and everybody is very happy we have the good friday agreement of 6 years ago and stick to that i mean even johnson could be very very careful to if that comes out out of his his proceedings that this piece is broken and remember it's free of all 5 months ago there was a 1st. killed somewhere in this context that starts again this is the end and i mean having coming with $100.00 other of whatever they are they had no undue the peace between northern ireland and the republic i mean this is no way that he would disagree with you to a certain extent like i personally take that point of view and i think playing with the with the peace process you know mine is a dangerous thing but ultimately london has not paid adequate attention to the problems of the northern ireland issue right since before the referendum and actually just kind of it just stays there. we are divided and so adamantly

it's not been adequately dealt with need in 3 years and so therefore the sticks the key questions of dealing with the new them on the border issues still remain unresolved and so ultimately that's what boris johnson has not understood he can't just go off to brussels to say get rid of the bark stop until he's got a workable proposal to replace it with something that's not been forthcoming so now let's talk again about timing these new bills that have been passed by the parliament this week which essentially put off the deadline for the bracks it decision until the end of the year is there any chance that a different agreement no matter what political constellation we wound up with whether or not boris johnson stays that a new different agreement could be negotiated by that they just kicking the can down the road once more well this is the problem isn't it because if they are

kicking the can down the road which i'm sure many in brussels will be looking at and thinking if we do give the u.k. another extension what is it full a key question what was quite interesting when this bill which was passed the house of commons the moment still has to as we're speaking still has to get through the house of lords though we're expecting that to happen and then goes to the queen for that for roll a sense of to be signed off what was pasta through an amendment as we say a change to this bill that was included would allow to reason may's withdrawal deal to be put to parliament this is the deal that was voted down 3 times in parliament could possibly could we see it coming back and that being a way for parliament to behave to vote or not to get an m.p.'s ok not those. who cannot vote for the backstop but for other m.p.'s to say this is better than

a no dale there is. the possibility is can you tell me what the british people make of all of this what are you hearing from family and friends this week. there are 2 components to this 1st is the british population is generally sick of this argument right they want to solution there's this kind of how if we still won't solve this that's one component to it give us a solution and indeed politicians are playing with that boris johnson said like if you don't want to have to hear the brakes attending more than give me my deal will give you my majority but on the other side the population is also still very divided right the general population is a little bit more program main than it was at the referendum. in them pinion polls there's a small majority of remain these days but the population is still very divided into 2 camps there's no be much move since the since the referendum so this is the howard's summit up still split the jaundiced and of kind of had enough of this argument but just because they've had enough of the argument doesn't mean we should

still to stop talking about it or stop trying to seek political solutions certainly for detail and what we do see from the polls is an enormous mistrust and actually disgust with the politicians in london so how do you think that would play out if snap elections do wind up being held because of course of course labor has said if this bill goes through if it is passed by the house of lords then they might be prepared to agree to snap elections how would you expect that to play out in in an election this distrust of politicians in general is the 100000 pound question nobody knows what is going to come out of it and whether the public is so fed up with it and maybe even go to have a lot of participation and voting which is gunned down to 42 percent or something that as we just heard that they're fed up with it but. nobody knows what is in the

heart of the voters what's going to come out and my up to mystic believe comeback britain has gone to a lot of crises nothing so spectacular what happened when no t.v. was around 100 years ago or 200 years ago but still be that at the end of the day if the rubbish is totally on the street and that then someone comes up and that we need to rush no solution and i am the one who going to need it he could i don't know feel someone out of the tory ranks someone else when they're all set up with his boys dungeon certain sorry i just want to bring in our last very short report here and then and then i'll come to you alex but certainly if a snap election is held the economic consequences of a brics it with or without a deal are absolutely going to be at front and center of the debate in the past weeks we have seen a dramatic fall in the value of the pound and experts say that could just be the

beginning of the economic problems that will result if forced johnson carries through on his policies let's take a look. the u.k. leaving the e.u. would damage the economies of both former partners but the british people would be most affected experts believe the u.k. could descend into chaos as food and medication prices spike and possibly become short in supply european businesses are likely to retreat and the london stock market and british pound could crash the ports along the charles faces endless lines of trucks waiting to enter a huge blow to the economy but you companies and especially export heavy german industrial corporations also risk losing billions all the u.k. and the e.u. careering towards a recession. so alex remainders will undoubtedly be

marshalling all of those arguments if in fact britain does wind up going to the polls where do you think we're going to be on to say november 1st and i have to ask for a quick answer because we're almost at the at here itself. i think there was still a very high possibility that there was a new job or exit or not the 31st that is not rolled out there are still many things in play that have to be played out before it stops but there still be a british prime minister johnson on october 31st. oh it's a difficult one to go i think so at the moment i think that there will be don't hold me to it if you tell anybody you think where we had a. i don't believe in the snap election i do think that brussels might offer another period of 3 months to negotiate if that is being discussed and will

stick to what i've said before out of the muddled someone that we're not going to run the country down someone has to take the banner and. bring us back to sanity sounds like. a lot of optimism there haven't you john worth on 1st in november that's the day of the brits miss due to have left britain will not yet have left and will have secured an extension from the european union to be a european union least until january 2020 and will be in the middle of an election campaign which is incredibly fiercely fought probably to take place sometime in november so boris johnson will be fighting for his political life up against an opposition that is trying to unify against his present clams and so 1st of november we don't know whether it will get previous and of course john somebody might be on the way. above to invite you all back for a 2nd round of the discussion after november 1st but if i did we'd be discussing under another name than quadriga because ladies and gentlemen quadriga now ends

with this show but the debate here at g.w. will certainly go on we have a new exciting show coming up starting next week it's called to the point be sure to tune in thanks so much for joining us all these years long on quadriga and thanks to all of you for being here as well about. food. food. food.

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a. good. this is g.w. news live from berlin a difficult visit in a difficult time german chancellor angela merkel arrives in china hoping to improve political ties and security economic agreement but pressure is on her to get tough on beijing over a human rights abuses of the treatment of protesters in hong kong also coming up. the death toll will be staggering says the bahamas health minister his country

starts cleaning up from hurricane dorian tens of thousands of people needed urgent humanitarian aid to one of the.