a. price for government and corporate. selling out of our country. donkey's fear know how you know us. start september 18th on t.w. . hong kong is the new berlin in the new cold war says pro-democracy activist joshua won't be speaking here in the german capital but he told the w.t.v. that the people of germany must stand with the people of hong kong beijing though immediately let it be known that there will be consequences and many are asking how much of a threat is china to western democratic values. and well on her recent trip to china german chancellor angela merkel called for a peaceful end to the hong kong crisis saying anything else would be quote a catastrophe this is thousands of protesters continue to take to the streets all

phone calls on an almost daily basis and ahead of celebrations on october the 1st to mark the 70th anniversary of the people's republic on question is the long march china's path to global supremacist. so a very warm welcome indeed to the 1st edition of the w's new international political talk show to the point with me peter craven the focus this week is on china's expanding global role and my guests chen so on a freelance journalist from china she says angle america's visit to china came into a difficult moment but she accomplished a mission impossible also with us is our own ever i must form a china correspondent for germany say on dean at work and on. ana believes that

china has excellent strategic qualities and capabilities europe's answer must be a strategy of unity and a very warm welcome to sonoma barket an american journalist who's trying to be a fellow at the make age an institute for china studies here in berlin he argues quite simply the germany must show woolley to shit on china. thank you all 3 being here today i'd like to begin with you chen soon and begin with the latest developments surrounding joshua wall how much of a controversy has it been and how the chinese side likely to react. i think china react quite strongly in a way that they know they have to show that it's their stance that this is not what they expected that what because especially one was just thing china and decisis kind of. almost like a balance of. criticism from the german media side that america hasn't been spoken

enough about this issue ok we'll talk about our visit to china in just a 2nd but 1st of all just do one visit d.w. studios right here in berlin and he made this appeal we hope people in germany and the chancellor castro a strong stand for support hong kong's democratization to automate and fundamental call for us is to elect our own government. ariano that's very clear people from just go will now how far should germany go the german government go in supporting the production democracy demonstrators in hong kong i think chancellor merkel has made clear in her visit in beijing that she asks for nonviolent response of china and hong kong and for peaceful peaceful solution of the hong kong conflict at the moment that she made it clear at the press conference of beijing that's one side the other side is should she have met a wall here in berlin i think no i think it was

a good idea not to meet with him because she. has met also with members of society in beijing like she also she didn't win maybe it's with germany's foreign minister and that clearly angered beijing considered definitely definitely and that was it was it a good idea for the foreign ministers to meet with joshua while i think it was not a good idea to have a photo of the meeting and to have it like to have it as a big symbol and in the media that was a little bit of a too much i think meeting with activists meeting with with those of society with people who are struggling for freedom for democracy is a very good idea it's one of the core values also of germany but you might get like public at a party of one of the german biggest newspaper i'm not sure whether that was a good idea and we will know things because you know quote to consult with us no no we don't do you calling for more leadership from germany this is leadership meeting the foreign minister meeting which i'm sure a woman is of the right kind of leadership because it can be it will be explosive or the timing of it of course as you mentioned is

a bit awkward americal had come back only a few days before from china and i think that is probably seen in china as a form of disrespect that one was was welcome to hear that the firm mr hi c'mon went to this party was photographed with him but i think you know medical when she was in beijing gave made very clear that she wanted a peaceful. and of this conflict i don't see a big problem in the german foreign minister meeting with joshua why he's here in berlin. what i feel is that there's a bit of an overreaction on the chinese side to the chinese ambassador summoning the press and condemning this which is quite unusual one of the surgeons i'm sure and sure when he compared the situation in hong kong with the protests here in germany as a peaceful revolution here in germany that led to the fall of the berlin wall what do you make of that comparison and i think it's i think also this comparison is

a bit of overstretch in my opinion that 1st the wearing a very different his talk about it was very different time now he compared this as the new cold war i thing right now the whole world is not as bipolar as back then and also i think one thing we always try to make it clear is why china's so i'm very at this point and also somehow with this metaphor is that what is chinese government's eyes what is josh is he actually just the activist the fighting for democracy or is he actually separate and that's a very distinctive point to that what is in a nutshell what is your answer to your own question i think from the point of view of the chinese government he definitely wanted to hong kong to be not just democratic but also into pendent and that's a big question so is hong kong a frontline city in a global battle between the rich area and systems and democratic systems i think a bit more complicated than that it's definitely at the front line at the moment

and. yesterday at this press conference in berlin sat that that in the past have been tibet and now it's hong kong more they'll be taiwan so he he put in a like a more for a perspective and i think there is some truth into that picture but on the other saw it i'm not sure whether it's like whether it is the symbol for the big new world it is one symbol of many many there are existing at the moment. we have to we have to look also outright war at the moment of the track conflict between china and the yes we have to see what position europe has in between whether to put themselves where to put themselves or whether to have a known position on. that point so i think it's more complex than this just to put hong kong at the front line thank you all 3 of those initial comments let's just take a quick look now at the role that human rights played during the chancellor's trip to china. criticism is unwelcome that's why german correspondents in beijing were not allowed to attend the press conference but

chancellor angela merkel did answer the question of whether she had mentioned the protest in hong kong during the meeting she said she talked about the rights and freedoms underpinned by the sino british declaration of the. don't think of these in the us and i pointed out that these rights and freedoms have to be guaranteed. the joint declaration is still valid. and it entails a number of citizens' rights that should and must be respected conan. the prime minister read a prepared statement. the chinese government safeguards the principle of one country 2 systems. we support the hong kong government's efforts to end the violence on the streets and to return to order the chinese people have the ability and wisdom to handle their own matters well. can western politicians wield any influence regarding human rights in china. who question

his chance to go back to your comments at the top of the show will how do you saying this. mission impossible to china. will tell us exactly what you mean. i think just the timing is a very you know with very complicated so what what's this main goal of the visit to china i think 21 is the issue that's what's going on because she faces a lot of pressure from. back home and the other one is for sure truth strengthen the bilateral relationship between germany and china specifically focusing i cannot make development but this 2 topics actually contradict each other because if the she is too loud about the hong kong and then it will make of the government angry and then of course would have consequences in a way if they cannot be where they ship but if she is too quiet she will face tremendous criticism i should come back to germany so i think she funder somehow relative a good balance between the 2 topics what do you say you know about our question of

on demand for still clings to this policy notion of the 100. and rhyme that is treated trade will create a better china or a more human rights oriented china or a more liberal china critics are going to have those critics say that's a totally outdated strong suit you would like yeah i mean i think broadly she would have been happy with the way this trip went it as as you were saying there was potential for for problems and tension and i think she when she headed back to berlin those the there hadn't been really any tension there hadn't been some big blow up. the protests in hong kong for example but i would say that what was missing from this trip was sort of the european approach we've seen europe taking a much tougher approach with china over the past year. back in march i think it was

french president emmanuel michel invited merkel and the european commission president roh juncker to paris to meet with seeds in paying to sort of send a message europe is united on trying and we can't be divided and going to beijing at this time after this year of reforms investment screening to protect german and european companies from chinese chinese acquisitions to go there with a large contingent of german c.e.o.'s to put the focus back on business i think some of germany's partners in europe may be questioning you know where whether the priority whether miracles priorities are in the right place in the backdrop so what you're telling us there is there is what is often described by commentators and pundits as a sea change in relations but with china in the last couple of years china becoming more globally ambitious china becoming more dangerous pops yeah well i think we've seen this here in germany back in 2016 we had this the acquisition of this

german robotics maker kuka and that kind of was a wake up call for a lot of people in germany also in europe we need we need a level playing field if we can't make acquisitions like this in china we need to prevent maybe china from from making such acquisitions here so but but but it's not just the these these corporate matters it's also the spread of the debt and political influence through belt and road china's surveillance state which is also being exploited to 3rd countries so there is a great deal of concern in in berlin and and in other european capitals about this on a systemic rivalries what i call it the european union commission has called it out i'm going to medical school to that surely that is wrong have already healthy. well rive really only healthy to a certain point. to the point when it can create innovation for example when there

is like a proper competition for for example but i think we're at the point at the moment which can be very dangerous especially to germany to an exporting country because. germany and europe at the end. to what's going on between china and the u.s. at the moment if you if we look at the discussion about the chinese company huawei and zte and sente eat and all which is like the i.t. industry of china of china like is there a way of of that industry becoming part of the european 5 g. networks for example or what's the u.s. reaction and what is like with all the companies supporting like tiny parts for any of the goods to u.s. companies than so the big danger i think is that europe and germany will be kind of might be a victim of a decoupling system of 2 systems so the rivalry at that point will not be healthy atoll it will lead to

a very very big problem for for the germany common economy for the european economies and then also for the world economy so i think there is a point where we everybody has to go back and say do we really want thought and to what extent do we to do we want to put our positions forward and not and not withdraw. its already according to critics of beijing business with china really takes place on an even playing field and that's not the only problem. chancellor angela merkel in china with the who's who of germany's business sector and her side you know 11 deals are signed. in $28000.00 china was germany's biggest trading partner for the 3rd year running bilateral trade reached almost $200000000000.00 euros. but the price of trading with china is high with regard to free market access for example despite many promises. german companies complain they're at a disadvantage in china. with regard to

industrial espionage and counterfeiting foreign companies that work with china lose millions to piracy. and then there's the social credit system beijing's way of monitoring evaluating and analyzing citizens and businesses. german companies fear all encompassing surveillance. is china using to tell was here in methods to conduct trade. is china creating a. style system of controlling its own citizens. about the social credit system for example i think it's very interesting to look at how that discussion what's going on here in germany for example and what's going on with the discussion going on in china especially if for example about the credit system and believe it or not many think it's actually a good thing because you say look at the crime rates. and then people feel safe i'm

not saying that it come as a cost or i'm saying it's what a lot of chinese. people in general i think it's 15 is somehow more important than privacy because they also help people look at privacy is a very different you feel look at the privacy issues through the chinese lens they somehow rather sacrifice their privacy in order to get convenience and also safety so i think from that point of view a lot of chinese doesn't even look at it as a monitoring system so i think it's a quite interesting to just try to i think the chinese says of view and how easy it is actually for the chinese government to build up a system. well you're right that different countries have different. sense of what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable. agassi here in germany there's quite a strict view in china i think if you look at public opinion polls people are

accepting of this i think maybe one of the worrying things is that this is being exported to 3rd countries in latin america. africa etc so i think here in europe there's a concern that if if the west doesn't pull together europe along with the united states and set certain standards of data privacy there's a debate in the u.k. right now about surveillance. for example at king's cross station. in london so this is a debate that that europe the united states other western countries have to have what is acceptable and what for them goes too far in talking about control and influence over and over there we're going to talk about the bells and road initiative it's the biggest infrastructure project in the world they say it's bringing jobs and economic opportunity to very many countries that haven't had jobs

and economic opportunity in the way that we do in europe it has to be a good think well no not necessarily because they also house to be stunned thoughts what their european you know what your money is focusing on the stuff that of course infrastructure investment. investments and investments of any at any level should come with a certain standards and such as transparency goals and certain standards of how investments and who how investments are done and who is doing this is rich coming from europe with the who was the colonial bank around of the practices in many southern hemisphere countries in the past century that that's true that perspective is true but on the other side that's also the danger and that danger has been felt already by some all countries who have been like a dealing with china and big infrastructure projects as for long because they can't pay the debts at the end because the infrastructure programs and help us in roads and trains can't they don't be. ring the money they thought they will bring and then these countries with these poor countries on debt a debt to china and at the end big infrastructure programs constructions will be

chinese hands as has as has happened. so it's not only an advantage and i think even those countries who might be also quite disorder who has a very complicated history with european colonial. history with those they are also now calling of. courses how and whether to deal with china because they have seen already quite bad examples so the interesting thing about the road initiative is that it's not anymore brought forward in any talk and has been like a year ago and a year and a half ago when we held the road emissions of any any chinese official was talking this word definitely was even and now it's kind of gone for the moment why is it gone because it's not as successful as they thought and we maybe we thought the country thought it from the very beginning. i think sometimes i honestly i never understood why do they have to come up with such a big concept and

a name and then for people to target time and see what's dicer i actually because i think this comes to the sort of the chinese tradition they need a big title for they need a sort of almost like a monument to make sure that there's certain credits being done by a certain leadership cares or broaching an impression the world one of the chinese ordinary chinese you don't know it's very difficult to generalize but it is a. comfortable with the status quo or do they do they yearn for their country to be an expansionist nation i think it's always deep down rooted in the sort of the chinese psych psyche in a way that's because a we've been told as what you feel grow up in china then you learned the chinese history what with somehow the time as a nation suffered through the opium war and what's going on happen in the 2nd world war over and over again for so. they are 4 times that low on us what you accomplish a study and most of this kind of thing grading over bring that they want tended to

be bigger and stronger and that really sort of. get rid of the humiliation that the chinese have suffered in generations and i think the sentiment is still there on the fetch a big country that's involved from which is no clear borders they need this sort of a concentrate forcing out of whole of this country together and that's always the and the still won't be dead and probably will be there for a long time you know a big country big big middle of military force is not going to be a major military parade to the biggest presentation of military hardware that china has ever made on october the 1st what's the message. what is the message is that china's trying to send out well. i don't know the answer to that i think she's in pink 70th anniversary is a big deal in china and. you know you have this gathering nationalism of the china dream and that she's been paying as he described it

and just tell us a little bit about the china during these massive marine poles dusters always welcome to well i think this is just this idea that china is rising up if it suffered through centuries of the industrial revolution and trying to sort of left behind and this is about a revival of china you know returning to its rightful place as as a global leader. i think but this nationalism can get out of control of course and i mean china had traditionally has not been an expansionist country like the united states or britain. so we need to remember that important yeah we need to remember that but of course this us china trade war has some people calling it a new cold war is. inflaming these these and nationalistic views not only in china but also in the u.s.

and that's something that can get out of control if the politicians inflame it too much if nothing telling us about chinese sensibilities in china is very most adamant to put time the message we are a values based society were a values based economy want all the values that china brings to the global table that a good values that make the world a better place. it was let's not deter me. it was a private. well they may not be the same values that. traditionally associated with western values i mean you know china's often chris i've criticized for human rights for its human rights record its response is look at all these millions of people that we've taken out of poverty. there are different values right and we talked about the social credit system in china may be acceptable for a good portion of the population and in many countries certainly in germany would

be totally unacceptable. so. what is trying to get contribute to global governance i think that is a big question and that's that's something that a lot of a lot of other countries are wondering you know what is the chinese model is it a model that can be. can be translated to on a global scale as as perhaps we saw after world war 2 with the united states and western europe. which always sort of marshall plan generation yeah yeah. i think there are big questions about whether this is the china model has has broader appeal. you know in beyond beyond china and so forth and jumping i think for you simply fish and see if that come come has a value cut it has the advantage sure what the fishes that chinese i'm bring on the table and say germans are proud of their missions here but it's a waiting force one feels and also for them they get we always have this sort of

stereotype of the hot lacking rice sometimes even chill much and then that might be and you also mention a rivalry so i think that to a certain extent is actually good it's also good to make friends the whole big old industrialized contradict of germany feel a bit nervous about you have to operate gaming us our tanks so i think that's also maybe bring some. technology i think it's not a bad thing is china striving for global some promise for us although i think for what the from the chinese side they always been bad from anything that you remember a couple years ago they always say china as a peaceful rights that was specially referring to what's going on with us asia and if the us route to that neighbor neighbor area right knowledge say we don't export models ok we're going to be very quietly yes although it was a good answer thanks very much for joining us here on the shows are the only 2 points the new. until one bunch of us.

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