from politics to flash from housing boom top this is where. welcome to the 77 percent. this weekend on t.w. . hong kong is the new berlin in the new cold war says pro-democracy activist joshua was speaking here in the german capital and he told the w.t.v. that the people of germany must stand with the people of hong kong beijing though immediately let it be known that there will be consequences and many are asking how much of a threat is china to western democratic values and well on her recent trip to china german chancellor angela merkel called for a peaceful end to the hong kong crisis saying anything else would be quote a catastrophe this is thousands of protesters continue to take to the streets all

phone calls on an almost daily basis and ahead of celebrations on october the 1st among the 70th anniversary of the people's republic on question is the long march china's path to global supremacist. so a very warm welcome indeed to the 1st edition of the w's new international political talk show to the point with me peter craven the focus this week is on china's expanding global role and my guests chen so on a freelance journalist from china she says angela merkel's visit to china came as a difficult moment but she accomplished a mission impossible also with us is out on the horizon most former china correspondent for germany say on the network and daria. i believe that china has

excellent strategic qualities and capabilities europe's answer must be a strategy old unity and under very warm welcome seems to know about it an american journalist who's trying to be a fellow at the mechanics or institute for china studies here in berlin they aren't used quite simply the germany must show bully the shame on china. thank you all 3 of you for being here today i'd like to begin with you chen soon and begin with the latest developments surrounding joshua wolf and how much of a controversy is it being and how well the chinese side likely to react. i think china react quite strongly in a way that they know they have to show that it's their stance that this is not what they expected that what because especially one was just thing china and just so is this kind of. almost like a balance of. criticism from the german media side that america hasn't been folk

have enough about this issue ok we'll talk about i'm going to visit to china in just a 2nd but 1st of all just sure we're in this to d.w. studios right here in berlin and he made this appeal. we hope people in germany and the chancellor castro a strong stand to support hong kong's democratization how to meet and fundamental call for us is to elect our own government. ariano that's very clear people from just euro will know how germany go the german government go in supporting their pro down democracy demonstrators in hong kong i think chancellor merkel has made clear in her visit in beijing that she asks for nonviolent response of china and hong kong and for peaceful peaceful solution of the hong kong conflict at the moment that's that she made it clear at the press conference of beijing that's one side the other side is should she have met josh along here in berlin i think no i think

it was a good idea not to meet with him because she met has had that has met also with members of society in beijing like she also she didn't mind maybe it's with germany's foreign minister and that clearly angered beijing considered definitely definitely and that was it was it a good idea for the foreign ministers to meet with joshua while i think it was not a good idea to have a photo of the meeting and to have it like to have a less a big symbol and the media of think that was a little bit of a too much i think meeting with activists meeting with with those of society with people who are struggling for freedom for democracy is a very good idea it's one of the core values also of germany but you might get like public at a party of one of the german biggest newspaper i'm not sure whether that was a good idea i wonder what new things because in your quotes of itself of this no no we don't do you calling for more leadership from germany this is leadership meeting the foreign minister meeting which i'm sure a woman is of the right kind of leadership because it can be it will be explosive well the timing of it of course as you mentioned is

a bit awkward merkel had come back only a few days before from china and i think that is probably seen in china as. a form of disrespect that one was was a welcome to hear that. the firm mr high command went to this party was photographed with him but i think you know americal when she was in beijing gave made very clear that she wanted a peaceful settlement of this conflict i don't see a big problem in the german foreign minister meeting with joshua wang he's here in berlin. what i feel is that there's a bit of an overreaction on the chinese side to the chinese ambassador summoning the press and condemning this which is quite unusual and of a certain. sure when he compared the situation in hong kong with the protests here in germany as a peaceful revolution here in germany that led to the fall of the berlin wall what do you make of that comparison and i think it's i think also this comparison is

a bit of all of a stretch in my opinion that 1st the where you know very defend his talk about it was very you know a different time now he compared this as the new cold war thing right now the whole world is not as bipolar as back then and also i think one thing we always try to make it clear is why china's so i'm going at this point and also somehow way this metaphor is that what has just come as i as what his joshua want is he actually a just the activist the fighting for democracy or is he actually separate and that's a very distinctive point to that what is in a nutshell what is your answer to your own question i think from the point of view of the chinese government he definitely wanted to hang on to be not just democratic but also into pendent and that's a big question so are there is hong kong a front line city in a global battle between terry and systems and democratic systems i think a bit more complicated than that it's definitely the front line at the moment and.

yesterday at this press conference and berlin sad about that in the polls have been tibet and now it's home to more they'll be taiwan so he he put in a like a 4 up specked and i think. there is some truth to that picture but on the other side i'm not sure whether it's like whether it is the symbol for the big new world it is one symbol of many many there are existing at the moment and we have to we have to look also out the right war at the moment of the track conflict between china yes we have to see what position europe has in between whether to put themselves where to put themselves or whether to have a known position on that point so i think it's more complex than this just to put hong kong at the front line thank you all 3 of those initial comments let's just take a quick look now at the role that human rights played during the chancellor's trip to china. criticism is unwelcome and that's why german correspondents in beijing were not allowed to attend the press conference but

chancellor angela merkel did answer the question of whether she had mentioned the protest in hong kong during the meeting she said she had talked about the rights and freedoms underpinned by the sino british declaration of the. movies in the us and i pointed out that these rights and freedoms have to be guaranteed. the joint declaration is still valid. and it entails a number of citizens' rights that should and must be respected. the prime minister read a prepared statement. the chinese government safeguards the principle of one country 2 systems. we support the hong kong government's efforts to end the violence on the streets and to return to order the chinese people have the ability and wisdom to handle their own matters well. can western politicians wield any influence regarding human rights in china. or in that question.

your comments at the top of the show will have you saying this. mission impossible to china. i think just the timing is a very. very complicated so what what's this main goal visit to china i think to one is the address that issue that's what's going on because she faces a lot of pressure back home and the other one is for sure truth the bilateral relationship between germany and china specifically focusing on economic development this 2 topics actually contradict each other because if the she is too loud about. it well make of the common angry of course what have consequences in a way. ship but if she is too quiet she will face tremendous criticism much of conduct of germany so i think she funder somehow a good balance between the 2 topics. still clings to this policy notion of.

trade will career. or china or a more human rights oriented china or a more liberal china critics on. you. i mean i think broadly she will have been happy with the way this trip went as as you were saying there was potential for for problems and tension and i think she when she headed back to berlin those the there hadn't been really any tension there hadn't been some big blow up. the protests in hong kong for example but i would say that what was missing from this trip was sort of the european approach we've seen europe taking a much tougher approach with china over the past year. back in march i think it was

french president emmanuel michel invited merkel and the european commission president roh juncker to paris to meet with season ping to sort of send a message europe is united on china we can't be divided and going to beijing at this time after this year of reforms investment screening to protect german and european companies from chinese chinese acquisitions to go there with a large contingent of german c.e.o.'s to put the focus back on business i think some of germany's partners in europe may be questioning you know where whether the priority whether merkel's priorities are in the right place the backdrop to what you're telling us there is there is what is often described by comments i do some pundits as a sea change in relations but with china in the last couple of years china becoming more globally ambitious china becoming more dangerous bumps yeah well i think we've seen this here in germany back in 2016 we had this the acquisition of this

german robotics maker kuka and that kind of was a wake up call for a lot of people in germany also in europe we need we need a level playing field if we can't make acquisitions like this in china we need to prevent maybe china from from making such accusations here so but but but it's not just these these corporate matters it's also the spread of the debt and political influence through belt and road china's surveillance state which is also being exploited to 3rd countries so there is a great deal of concern in in berlin and and in other european capitals about this . we're going to systemic rivalries what they're calling it the european union commission has called it out i'm going to medical school that surely bounces rivalry is healthy well rivalry is only healthy to a certain point to the point when it can create innovation for example when there

is like a proper competition for for example but i think we are at the point at the moment which can be very dangerous especially to germany to an exporting country because. germany and europe at the end caf no on sun the problem on so to what's going on between china and the u.s. at the moment if you if we look at the discussion about the chinese company huawei and zte and then to eat and all which is like the i.t. industry of china of china like is there a way of of that industry becoming part of the european 5 g. networks for example or what's the u.s. reaction and what is like with all the companies supporting like little tiny parts for any of the goods to u.s. companies than so the big danger i think is that europe and germany will be kind of might be a victim of a decoupling system of 2 systems so the rivalry at that point will not be healthy a tall it will lead to

a very very big problem for for the germany common economy for the european economies and then also for the world economy so i think there is a point where we everybody has to go back and say do we do we really want thought and to what extent do we to do we want to to put our positions for wood and not and not withdrawal who is touched on it's already according to critics of beijing business with china really takes place on an even playing field and that's not the only problem. chancellor angela merkel in china with the who's who of germany's business sector at her side you know 11 deals are signed. in 2018 china was germany's biggest trading partner for the 3rd year running by letter. trade reaches almost 200000000000 euros. but the price of trading with china is high with regard to free market access for example despite many promises german companies complain they're at a disadvantage in china. with regard to industrial

espionage and counterfeiting foreign companies that work with china lose millions to piracy. and then there's the social credit system beijing's way of monitoring evaluating and analyzing citizens and businesses. german companies fear all encompassing surveillance. is china using to tell us here in methods to conduct trade. china creating a. style system of controlling its own citizens. about the social credit system. i think it's very interesting to look at how that discussion what's going on here in germany for example and what's going on with the discussion going on in china now specially if for example about the credit system and believe it or not many think it's actually a good thing because it used to look at the crime rates. and then people feel safe

i'm not saying that it has a cost or i'm saying it's what a lot of chinese. people in general i think it's 50 is somehow more important than privacy because they also help people look at privacy is a very different if you look at the privacy issues through the chinese lens they somehow rather sacrifice their privacy in order to get convenience and also safety so i think from that point of view doesn't even look at it as a monitoring system so i think it's a quite interesting to just try to i think the chinese has a point of view and how easy it is actually for the chinese government to build up a system. well you're right that different comfort countries have different. sense of what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable in privacy here in germany there's quite a strict view in china i think if you look at public opinion polls people are

accepting of this i think maybe one of the worrying things is that this is being exported to 3rd countries in latin america. africa etc so i think here in europe there's a concern that if if the west doesn't pull together europe along with the united states and set certain standards of data privacy there's a debate in the u.k. right now about surveillance. for example at king's cross station. in london so this is a debate that that europe the united states other western countries have to have what is acceptable and what for them goes too far in talking about control and influence over and over there we're going to talk about the the bells and road initiative it's the biggest infrastructure project in the world they say it's bringing jobs and economic opportunity to very many countries that haven't have jobs and economic opportunity in the way that we do in europe it has to be

a good think well no not necessarily because they also has to be stunned dogs and what they're european you know what your money is focusing on the stuff that of course infrastructure investment and job investment is an investment that any at any level should come with such and such as transparency goals and certain standards of how investments and who how investments are done and who is doing this is rich coming from europe with her with the colonial background of the practices in many southern hemisphere countries in the past century that that's true that perspective is true but on the other side that's also the danger and that danger has been felt already by some all countries who have been like dealing with china and big infrastructure. projects longer for example because they can't pay the debts at the end because the infrastructure programs and all those in roads and trains can't they don't bring the money they thought they will bring and then these countries with these poor countries on debt at a debt to china and at the end big infrastructure programs constructions will be

chinese hands as has as has happened. so it's not only an advantage and i think even those countries who might be also quite disciplined who has a very complicated history with european colonial. history with those they are also now kind of. courses how and whether to deal with china because they have seen already quite bad examples so the interesting thing about the road initiative is that it's not anymore brought forward in any talk it has been like a year ago and a year and a half ago when we held the road initiative with any any chinese official was talking this word definitely was even and now it's kind of gone for the moment why is it gone because it's not as successful as they thought and we maybe we thought other countries thought of from the very beginning. i think sometimes i honestly i never understood why do they have to come up with such a big concept and

a name and then for people to target time it stands for what's dicer i actually because i think this comes to the sort of the chinese tradition they need a big title for they need a sort of almost like a monument to make sure that there's a certain credits being done by a certain leadership but there's a great impression the world one of the chinese ordinary chinese you don't know it's very difficult to generalize but they're. comfortable with the status quo or do they do they yearn for their country to be an expansionist nation i think it's always deep down rooted in the sort of the chinese psych psyche in a way that's because a we've been taught as the what you feel dropping china then you learned the chinese. history of what with some how well that china as a nation suffered through the opium war and what's going on happen in the 2nd world war over and over again for 3 or 4 times that low on us when you come to just study and those of this kind of ingrained in the bring that they want tended to be bigger

and stronger and then really sort of. get rid of the humiliation the chinese have suffered in generations i think the sentiment is still there and the such a big country that's involved from pyar which is no clear borders they need this sort of a concentrate forcing order to hold this country together and that's always the and still won't be there and probably won't be there for a long time you know a big country big big major military force is not going to be a major military parade route as there is this is the biggest presentation of military hardware that china reserve and many don't want so there's a what's the message. what is the message that china's trying to send out well. i don't know the answer to that i think she's in pain 70th anniversary is a big deal in china and you know you have this gathering nationalism that china dream and that she's been paying as he described it

and it's tell us a little bit about the china during this process very important aspects always welcome and today well i think this is just this idea that china is rising up it it suffered through the centuries of the industrial revolution and trying to sort of left behind and this is about a revival of china you know returning to its rightful place as as a global leader. i think but this nationalism can get out of control of course and i mean china had traditionally has not been an expansionist country like the united states or britain. so we need to remember that important yeah we need to remember that but of course this us china trade war some people calling it a new cold war is inflaming these thieves and nationalistic these not only in china but also in the u.s.

and that's something that can get out of control if the politicians inflame it too much you've both been telling us about chinese sensibilities in china is very most adamant to both tire of the message we are a values based society where a values based economy want all the values that china brings to the global table that a good values the place the world a better place. feels let's not just remember. it was a private. well they may not be the same values that. traditionally associated with western values i mean you know china's often chris i've criticized for human rights for its human rights record its response is look at all these millions of people that we've taken out of poverty. there are different values right and we talked about the social credit system in china it may be acceptable for a good portion of the population and in many countries certainly in germany it

would be totally unacceptable. so. what is trying to get contribute to global governance i think that is a big question and that's that's something that a lot of a lot of other countries are wondering you know what is the chinese model is it a model that can be. can be translated to on a global scale as as perhaps we saw after world war 2 with the united states and western europe. which always sort of marshall plan to reassure you yeah yeah. i think there are big questions about whether this is the china model has has broader appeal. you know in beyond beyond china and so if i can jump in i think for example you fish and see is that a kind of cult has a value or kind of has the advantage sure what the fishes that chinese are on bring on the table and say germans are proud of their fish and seafood is a waving force one feels and also for them they get we always have this sort of

stereotype the chinese the king right sometimes even chill much and then that might be. a rivalry so i think that to a certain extent is actually good it's also good to make for example a big old industrialized contradictive germany feel a bit nervous about you have to upgrade to gaming a star takes time so i think that's also maybe bring some come. technology i think it's not about is china striving for global promise to us although i think for one from the chinese side they always been bad from anything that you remember a couple of years ago doubtless they. specially refined to what's going on with us the asia and if. it's never made for area right knowledge we don't support the model ok we're going to leave it there and that was required leave us alone but it was a good answer thanks very much for joining us here on the shows are going through the points the new been so much. to learn bunch of.

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a bit of the. plane . this is d w news live from berlin the top u.s. democratic candidates for the presidency faced each other on stage for the 1st time . quite secure ok i know how to fix it and i'm going to lead the fight to get it done. in the 3rd televised debate the leading democratic presidential hopefuls clashed on health care education and climate policy a do you have any of them have what it takes to defeat al trump explains 20 well have analysis from our correspondents on the scene.