when we talk to those who began the struggle for freedom comes from personal courage moral penalty but also going no telephone call for almost all of you know you've been in the courtroom we employed all surprised me i saw it coming 10 years before i'm not sure i'm coming home i mean. what does it take to change the course of history and. raising the iron curtain start september 30th on d w. we're not a perfect country and we don't claim to be you're going to see the last terrorism if you have more religious freedom opinion of the country that pushes religious freedom or the united states gets to who has ever held a ministerial on religious freedom before this one has anybody donald trump may not be known as a champion of human rights but there's one in particular those courtiers attention a right to worship free my guest this week here in washington you sound brownback

ambassador for international religious freedom is donald trump trying to hijack religion for political purposes. possible sam brownback welcome to conflict zone i.q. the u.s. recently held what was billed as the world's largest meeting on religious freedom international religious freedom delegates were welcomed by the same don't know who said in 2016 i think islam hates us and when he became president a year later moved to bar the citizens of several muslim majority countries from entering the us does that help people can pay for religious freedom i see it all as something for us that religious freedom is specifically a right up. everybody everywhere all the time and what he's primarily discussing

are immigration issues this year's an immigration so your own party i mean the people like john mccain the late john mccain lindsey graham who were horrified by the state said this executive order sends a signal intended or not that america does not want muslims coming into this country and you can go to any statement on a stage when you have mosque there or there and if you want to open up one yourself you can do it and the point of what we were talking about when i was psyched about here is international religious freedom. and that is guaranteed here in the united states and if you can't practice in the united states you're well placed to bring any lawsuit that you would choose and to declare and put forward that you have a 1st amendment right in the united states to do this and the by the way we are not a perfect country and we don't claim to be but we are one the do it we do believe in these rights these fundamental rights like religious freedom we do practice them

and we have problems and they end up in the court system but we're going to continue to push these rights every chance and every place we can but the policy was condemned widely by religious groups including the jewish community the policy of barring people from muslim majority countries was the american jewish world service poll did nothing less than a xenophobic muslim in the intent of which has been made clear by president chum through multiple anti muslim statements over several. it that it doesn't help your cause to be promoting international religious freedom when you get responses like that does it. i don't i don't care for those responses but i also would stand for all of those people's rights to save those in doing those things that they do and i would stand for their rights to practice religious freedom the united states i think you are conflating 2. separate issues i think you're bringing in my opinion

of what you're putting forward here an immigration issue which there are substantial questions about immigration there's a lot of dispute and debate about u.s. immigration policy a legitimate discussion to have but what i'm talking about is a fundamental right to religious freedom to where there really isn't i don't think that much dispute that individuals in the united states are all entitled to this fundamental right to practice their faith or no faith at all freely and various ages are up in arms by things which which donald trump has said. we were told yes they are about jews the president's statement last month to them that if you vote for a democrat you're being disloyal to jewish people you're being very disloyal to israel since when is it the business of a political leader to comment on the political views of a particular religion because the outrage yeah yeah my position and work as

ambassador religious freedom and that's what i comment on that's the line that i'm in and that's what i'm going to come on on on your program really until you die into those views that if you vote for a democrat you're being disloyal to jewish i'm not going to comment on those one way or the other i've got enough work to do in this job on religious freedom and anything you want to talk about on religious freedom i'm happy to discuss about sort of brownback you said that you saw pushing for religious freedom as a way to promote other rights you said if we get it right you're going to get more freedom of assembly is going to be more press freedom is going to be more free speech taking place to set that election law yes fact is when you drill down there is little or no evidence for that is that oh i did i had to dispute that completely if you if you look at this issue on religious freedom which has been declining and contract in around the world the last 10 years in particular you see these other rights decline in re. tracting often religious freedom or the persecution of people

of faith is one of those 1st issues that happens biggest manipulated the most the earliest and you can see countries that really on religious freedom tend to be ones that also on her 1st amendment rights of free speech and of assembly you can also say there's a couple other correlations on this i appreciate the question there are a couple correlations that i think you'd be interested in one is you're going to see less terrorism if you have more religious freedom and there is a factual basis for that as there are for these others and you're going to find more economic growth if you get more religious freedom this is that's why we talk about this in the sort of foundational sense in july you looked at the united arab emirates which you singled out as being one of the good countries they hosted you said the 1st of a papal visit on the arabian peninsula and they've been stepping up and doing a lot more so you gave us a gold star for them this is a state which up a truly detains and forcibly disappears individuals who criticize the authorities

you made no mention about when you were giving them the goats the duty i didn't have those additional things but also as i could be out on the mental things and they are they are but also there's i mean you're out of your ass freedom there was also a bit of democracy what do you think i'm sure what did you think of the papal visit for the 1st time in the history of mankind to the arabian peninsula what did you think what led you to cover it what do you think that i what do you feel like you know what do you what do you think about that people aren't interested in my views what you say you are my goodness you're putting on forward right now what i mean here you know but i mean do i but jail for their views thoughts about it well i think that comforted them well let's let's talk about what happened. that's talk about you you have a papal visit on the arabian peninsula that's never happened in the history of mankind do you think that's significant though so you are blows up even human rights a blessing is the let me. you know me finish the thought we finish the thought if

you want to answer my question i'll finish my thought here that there what you're doing is you're starting now to open up in an arabian peninsula area that hasn't had these freedoms put forward before but hasn't had a papal visit ever happened before this starts to talk about some of these rights and my job that i see is one that you're always trying to move people along the buses here as well but it's not free speech it's just not talking about democracy the only decision there's a lot here of it is the let me let me finish this thought here what you're trying to do is to get these countries to move on forward and that you hope that as you move them forward on these things that they will tend to engage more people that have a broader set of thoughts and that you can get to more of these as you saw in the going to do that the ruler of the u.s. has 6 and wife is holed up in london having run away from him terrified that she'll be kidnapped like to with his daughter as well when they try to get away that's who

you're dealing with. he's got no intention of changing and being becoming a democratic state and you and this is one of the good hunches you name it well this is one that held a papal visit this is one that i went to mass there in that country my biggest problem getting a mass was the traffic i wasn't blocked from going there that's not true in a number of islamic countries where i have visited and you don't have the degree of ability to move around they are not a perfect nation and they have many things they need to improve upon but i'm just redo on religious freedom the government chooses and vets all the amounts issues weekly guidance for the friday prayers and even informal islamic teaching has to be approved by the government is that religious freedom how would. you guys didn't put a gold star said on this not once i did why don't you compare him to what the saudis do and what do you think about i'm going to saudis and other let's talk about the sound of the. that is

a bit late well no but it was you know about it was how discouraging what must be well what did you ever think about how do you ever improve a situation. do you just say we're going to stand back and we're going to condemn completely and all the time and you guys aren't doing enough and we're not going to talk or work with him or if you try to engage this the right way michael brown the end of dozens of what do you want your way to do it but michael abramowitz president of freedom house said the u.s. cannot effectively promote individual liberty human equality or democracy by narrowing the definition of human rights to exclude broad categories of rights or people and to focus on international religious freedom excludes democracy free just for the poor it's like that so the obama years this was being done much better and progress is being made our idea should have you just say about obama you know you're just saying that of the way of just saying we're going to stand back and be

critical and we're not going to engage is a much better way to go quoting an individual that saying that that's the way to do it i choose to believe and i've been around and working on these issues for a few years i carried the original religion international i just freedom bill i was one of the key sponsors of that in the democratic administration that didn't want to really see this become law and sense and we've continued to put these reports forward we've continued to work on this topic and i think without those sorts of efforts you wouldn't see you'd see further backslide and then we are today but i'm busted and so i think these are key things that we try to push this on forward you only tell you what a high individual told me that he was in the evening because i want to get through quite a lot of ok when you want to fight so let's so let's do this well yes you do sir you don't want to hear about what direct ways we want to go at this i do i want to hear how you explain away this. single minded focus on the international religious

freedom and i ask you how discouraging you think that might be to human rights victims in because i'm on the idea that our banner at your average very bright man and you've interviewed many people much brighter than me over a long period of a very successful career and i applaud that you know that and that i have a certain statutory authority the position i am under statutorily created position and it has a narrow mandate and then narrow mandate is on religious freedom and it's on every country in the world except one which is the united states and it's not only united states because this is a very robust and difficult debate in united states and we want to keep a bipartisan support for this topic and i admire how it's done if you take egypt for instance where donald trump said in april that president r.c.c. was doing a great job and was a great president. the question is what's so great about ignoring the escalating campaign of intimidation the violence of the arrests against political activists

many others who voiced produces in april 17 senators including james risch the republican chairman of the senate foreign relations committee drew attention to what they called serious concern about the erosion of political and human rights in egypt but you think they're doing a great go bust. just campaign thinks they're doing great. on. how do you think he compares to president morsi when he was in as you gyptian the leader of egypt how do you think sisi compares. he has tried to achieve more people than the sea do. you think syrians were really trying to answer yes he is worse than morsi do you not think torture is worse no no i'm asking when you see they don't go around cairo murdering babies do you know he's the head of the muslim brotherhood. he's the muslim brotherhood. it's not. that strongly reputable the group but you would rather have been. man and c.c.

. bill how. is that he through i'd rather people not being praised to subject their citizens to industrial degrees of torture yeah and use them or send a man who was responsible oh it was mr al sisi was responsible as human rights watch said and 2013 for one of the largest single day massacres in modern times in a city for which nobody has ever been held responsible somewhere between 40800 people die. it indiscriminate killing by egyptian forces who see didn't do that. i think there would be a variance of opinion of believing that the muslim brotherhood being in power in egypt is better than sisi been in power now i do not claim i don't think anybody in this administration with the c.c. is perfect or near perfect by any means you feet praise on him and i think that

once with that there would be criticism and that there has been criticism of that there will be criticism but there i also believe there are people trying to work with this government in egypt saying this is a major player in the middle east and in some way that we need to work with some ways when i was in the senate i worked a lot with hosni mubarak and president mubarak had a lot of problems and he did a lot of things that were highly questionable but you're still saying ok then what's the alternative and is it the muslim brotherhood yes that's the alternative well i don't think that's the right way to go. in january secretary of state colin powell was in cairo he too was heaping praise on the c.c. he said he's really taken to the ideal of religious freedom and he's done so with great power and great courage and he is to be lauded for that the facts are rather different when it comes to the. ijaz freedom in egypt the egyptian christians the

largest no communities luis live in a minefield of of legal and social discrimination i mean maybe you meet with more people that are dealing with religious issues in egypt tonight do i doubt it but i've met with a number of people that are practicing people of faith minority faiths in egypt. and here's what they tell me. that this is much better under the c.c. government than it has been even though you would prefer the muslim brotherhood they do not. there is communal violence is taking place and it is very discouraging . they are very appreciative of the signals that president sisi is sending from on time and top and trying to push they very much appreciate him dedicated in opening up a church because of the signals that it sends they are not appreciated as are being closed as well and let me finish this point if i could with you they appreciate some of that now i look at it and i see

a lot of problems that are taking place which shall you do sort of these are not the sort of thing where you you pick the perfect against what you have right now this is the sort of situation where you say this is it's either candidate a or candidate b. within us and they would rather have the current situation than what they had. but not all that is the right for respecting religious freedom it would be nice if they would 14 churches was shut down by the authorities between september 26th scene and they pulled 2080 with cultic christian is denied access to them and for a service is prohibited in one village south of cairo they've been waiting since 2001 to have a church and last december they were attacked by muslims with style and no one was held responsible in the christians have had to suspend all that you know and all those things ought to be addressed. and we put those for daily use in the. they got

a gold star and the secretary of state not get a gold star he didn't say i give you a gold star oh he said you did you look at our report our religious freedom reported that the secretary issued on egypt he said and he cites a number of these problematic things that he said he's really taken to heart the ideal of religious freedom and he's done so with great power and great courage and he is to be lauded for that that's what he did so. he also put out that report and you look at the report which very few people read. i would dispute that within the religious freak religious freedom community this is the gold standard to use your terminology this is the gold standard on religious freedom the secretary of state issued that report he signed it he cited it he put it forward and he stands by it. the best of the this talk about i think you should look at that report ambassador let's talk about the u.s. attitude to human rights because this is so much as anything goes where it was

changed one country pushes religious freedom any more than the united states. what about all the other fundamental rights well i'm asking you this one because this is the one i work on and you asked to interview me and this is the one i know but the fact is the another country is as. good we know the country that pushes religious freedom or the united states this is so who has ever held a ministerial on religious freedom before this one has anybody i would suggest to you there has not been a single nation before this held at a ministerial religious train went out and held one wheel to soothe this is in the bonus thousands of people from around the world ambassador i understand that no but you tell me a nation that's better than us on religious freedom so i'm boss of the u.k. you may wander about i'm not going to give you just carried on china do you think i'm chinese better on religion or you told us about religious freedom but i just want you to read what to say but this isn't the ministration has basically said goodbye it's a human right. it's diplomacy hasn't it now it has not sir ranks real extremists

and says religious freedom human right rex tillerson chancer 1st secretary of state religion am didn't he know what he did not said to have really just buried i'm a human right rex tillerson says it's written that too often promoting our values is an obstacle to advancing our interests in other words don't let's let human rights get in the way of a good trade deal i mean i submit to you that religious freedom is a human right. it's in the 1st amendment nice lady only one as well but if you won't even admit it's a human right will you admit it's a human rights matter would. you agree to answer questions i agree to come here and ask them people in studio use they're not interested in my well i handle one area and that's religious freedoms are and in this area this is a human right it's in section 18 of the un declaration of human rights it is

a fundamental human right there is no nation on the earth that pushes human rights of religious freedom any more than the united states more than the trumpet ministration does sir and you can't come up with a single name of the nobody else that does it this is true on my road to you last well but it is true your last meeting on religious freedom coincided with the creation of a new commission this year to explore inalienable rights in u.s. foreign policy is that right. you said at his meeting yes it was your last meeting on religious international religious freedom the one you held this year. you had a new commission this year to explore in alienable right and that was you know that i thought that was announced by the secretary but it wasn't at the ministerial if that's what you're referring to sir is is no no no i don't i think it came roughly at the same time i came down the same here this with these are very separate entities but i mean you can confide in me if you want but there are several. that

entity's there seems to be a growing impression that you're prioritizing religious rights at the expense of other rights in 2016 martin castro who chaired the u.s. commission on civil rights wrote that religious freedom is often used as a code word for discrimination intolerance racism sexism homophobia and that that worry is present majlis and. that what that worry that concern is present not just in. religious freedom in the space they occupy is religious freedom internationally it's not domestically. this is a fundamental right it's a fundamental right for everybody that exists at all times all places for everybody and it doesn't pinch on other rights it is up just like freedom of assembly you tell you just didn't join other rights religion said here in the united states it says in its if it does a person brings

a lawsuit in and carries it on forward and they have the same rights as anybody else just this commission that was set up on elaine inalienable rights has been openly is chaired by somebody who's been openly critical of same sex marriage do you want to see same sex marriage ban in the united states i don't have portfolio there sir i do not have the you i only have authority on international religious freedom you have to interview somebody else but i do a confirmation hearing in 2017 you refused to give a direct answer when asked to state that there were no circumstances under which religious freedom could justify criminalizing imprisoning or executing people on the grounds of that g.b.t. status why did you know about it's just. oh hum not sure at that time but we i stand for whatever those rights are that the state department has been.

supporting supports individuals around the world on their human dignity rights. that you and i support those as well you don't buy any more that will be your wishes on the grounds of sexual orientation you know i don't. support what state department does in this area the area i work in is religious freedom but as governor of kansas you issued an executive order rescinding protection against employment discrimination based on sexual orientation and i did because there was not a statute that supported and i thought those should be determined by statute not by executive order lost to your boss the cycle you want to talk about religious freedom. to a frustrated to mass last year your boss the secretary of state went as far as to suggest that donald trump's presidential victory could have been the result of divine intervention to buy into that narrative. that's the secretary's opinion. you know i know i'm not going to talk about theology with you to talk

about religious freedom but i'm not going to you don't you know you don't share his view all you do share is i'm not going to comment on it sir i mean other people in the administration have said the same thing you have 2 days sarah saunders and so recently the press secretary went even further god wanted donald trump to become president she said. you can ask her about it sir i think i just don't have portfolio there i'm you're asking me questions that i don't have authority to answer you don't think this administration is in danger of just a little too much piety and self-importance about it claiming of holy endorsements for them ultra. high i'm just not going to i don't have portfolio there sir we don't have a view one way or the i don't have the portfolio you got to unite as the press secretary or somebody else that can respond to those questions i i. can answer

a lot of questions on religious freedom but if you don't want to go again it's from the best of us it's been good to have you on the program thank you very much.

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