coming. from the attention of the famous naturalist and explorer. to celebrate the next summer from 250. morning on a trip discovery. expedition boy on dino. we're not a perfect country and we don't claim to be going to see the last terrorism if you have more religious freedom again you know the country that pushes religious freedom or the united states gets to who has ever held a minister ariel on the edges freedom before this one has anybody donald trump may not be known as a champion of human rights but those one in particular those courtiers attention to the right to worship free my guest this week here in washington is sam brownback ambassador for international religious freedom because donald trump trying to hijack religion for political purposes.

and also the son brownback welcome to conflict zone thank you the u.s. recently held what was billed as the world's largest meeting on religious freedom international religious freedom delegates were welcomed by the same don't trump who said in 2016 i think islam hates us and when he became president a year later moved to bar the citizens of several muslim majority countries from entering the u.s. does that help your campaign for religious freedom i see it all as something for us that religious freedom is specifically a right of everybody everywhere all the time and what he's primarily discussing are immigration issues but yours and we immigrated to your own party i mean there are people like john. ok the late john mccain lindsey graham who were horrified by the

state said this executive order sends a signal intended or not that america does not want muslims coming into this country and you can go to any state united states and you have mosque there or there and if you want to open up one yourself you can do it and the point of what we were talking about when i was psyched about here is international religious freedom. and that is guaranteed here in the united states and if you can't practice at the united states you're well placed to bring any lawsuit that you would choose and to declare and to put forward that you have a 1st amendment right in the united states to do this and the by the way we are not a perfect country and we don't claim to be but we are one the do it we do believe in these rights these fundamental rights like religious freedom we do practice them and we have problems and they end up in the court system but we're going to continue to push these rights every chance and every place we can but the policy

was condemned widely by religious groups including the jewish community the policy of barring people from muslim majority countries was the american jewish world service coded nothing less than a xenophobia muslim in the intent of which has been made clear by president jump through multiple anti muslim statements over several is it that it doesn't help your cause to be promoting international religious freedom when you get responses like that doesn't. i don't i don't care for those responses but i also would stand for all of those people's rights to save those in doing those things that they do and i would stand for their rights to practice religious freedom the united states i think you are conflating 2 separate issues i think you're bringing in my opinion of what you're putting forward here an immigration issue which there are. anshul

questions about immigration there's a lot of dispute and debate about u.s. immigration policy a legitimate discussion to have but what i'm talking about is a fundamental right to religious freedom to where there really isn't i don't think that much dispute that individuals in the united states are all entitled to this fundamental right to practice their faith or no faith at all freelance and various ages are up in arms by things which which donald trump has said. we were told yesterday are about jews the president's statement last month to them that if you vote for a democrat you're being disloyal to jewish people you're being very disloyal to israel since when is it the business of a political leader to comment on the political views of a particular region because the outrage yeah yeah my position and work is investor religious freedom and that's what i comment on that's the line that i'm in and that's what i'm going to comment on on your program we really want to you know i

into those views that if you vote for a democrat you're being disloyal to jewish i'm not going to comment on those one way or the other i've got enough work to do in this job on religious freedom and anything you want to talk about on religious freedom i'm happy to discuss about that or brownback you said that you saw pushing for religious freedom as a way to promote other rights you said if we get it right you're going to get more freedom of assembly is going to be more press freedom is going to be more free speech taking place you set that into law yes fact is when you drill down there is little or no evidence for that is that oh why did i dispute that completely. if you if you look at this issue on religious freedom which has been declining and contract in around the world the last 10 years in particular you see these other rights decline and retract and often religious freedom or the persecution of people of faith as one of those 1st issues that happened to guess manipulated the most the earliest. and you can see countries that really on or religious freedom tend to be

ones that also on her 1st amendment rights of free speech and of assembly you can also say there's a couple other correlations on this i appreciate the question there are a couple correlations that i think you'd be interested in one is you're going to see less terrorism if you have more religious freedom and there is a factual basis for that as there are for these others and you're going to find more economic growth if you get more religious free and this is that's why we talk about this in this sort of foundational sense engine by you looked at the united arab emirates which you singled out as being one of the good countries they hosted you said the 1st of a papal visit on the arabian peninsula and they've been stepping up and doing a lot more so you gave just cold stuff for them this is a state which truly detains and forcibly disappears individuals who criticize the authorities you made no mention of that when you were giving them the goats the duty i didn't know those additional things but i also think that the other on the

mental things that they are they are but also there's i mean sure that your best friend in the ocean had of democracy what do you think i'm sure what did you think of the papal visit for the 1st time in the history of mankind to the arabian peninsula what did you think what led you to cover it what do you think that the well what do you know if you go what do you what do you think about that people aren't interested in my views. over my goodness you're putting on forward right now what i mean here is that you only know of what jail for they've used thought about it well i think that comforted them well let's let's talk about what happened. let's talk about you have a papal visit on the arabian peninsula that's never happened in the history of mankind do you think that's significant then i think our blows up even human rights a blessing is the media give me finish the thought we finish the thought if you want to answer my question i'll finish my thought here that there what you're doing is you're starting now. open up in an arabian peninsula area that hasn't had these

freedoms put forward before but hasn't had a papal visit ever happened before this starts to talk about some of these rights and my job that i see is one that you're always trying to move people along the process let's hope it's not free speech just don't talking about democracy the only decision there's a lot here of it is the let me let me finish this thought here what you're trying to do is to get these countries to move on forward and that you hope that as you move them forward on these things that they will tend to engage more people that have a broader set of thoughts and that you can get to more of these as you saw in the going to do that the ruler of the u.s. has 6 and wife is holed up in london having run away from him terrified that she'll be kidnapped like 2 of his daughters were with a child together but that's who you are dealing with. he's got no intention of changing and being becoming a democratic state and you and this is one of the good hunch is your name well this

is one that held a papal visit this is one that i went to mass there in that country my biggest problem getting a mass was the traffic i wasn't blocked from going there that's not true in a number of islamic countries where i have visited and you don't have the degree of ability to move around they are not a perfect nation and they have many things they need to improve upon but i'm just redo on religious freedom the government chooses and vets odium ups issues weekly guidance for the friday prayers to them even in formal islamic teaching has to be approved by the government is that religious freedom and how do you think you can i didn't put a gold star said on this and once i did why don't you compare him to what the saudis do now what do you think about i'm going to sally's mother let's talk about the sound of this that is a bit late well you know because you never thought it was how discouraging what must well what did you ever think about how do you ever improve a situation. you just say we're going to stand back and we're going to condemn

completely and all the time and you guys aren't doing enough and we're not going to talk or work with him or you try to engage this the right way michael brown then the president of what are you going to your way to do it but michael abramowitz president of freedom house said the u.s. cannot effectively promote individual liberty human equality or democracy by narrowing the definition of human rights to exclude broad categories of rights or people and to focus on international religious freedom excludes democracy free just for the poor it's like that those so the obama years this was being done much better and progress is being made our idea should have you just say about obama you know you're just saying that of the way of just saying we're going to stand back and be critical and we're not going to engage is a much better way to go quoting an individual than saying that that's the way to do

it i choose to believe and i've been around and working on these issues for a few years i carried the original religion international i just freedom bill i was one of the key sponsors of that in a democratic administration that didn't want to really see this become law and sense and we've continued to put these reports forward we've continued to work on this topic and i think without those sorts of efforts you wouldn't see you'd you'd see further backslide and then we are today but i'm busted and so i think these are key things that we try to push this on forward you know me tell you what about high individual told me that he was in the evening because i want to get through quite a lot of ok what do you want to fight so let's so let's do this well yes you do sir you don't want to hear about what direct ways we want to go at this i do i want to hear how you explain away this single minded focus on the international religious freedom and ask you how discouraging you think that might be to human rights victims in because. yeah and i did our banner at your variance very bright man and

you've interviewed many people much brighter than me over a long period of a very successful career and i applaud that you know that and that i have a certain statutory authority the position i am going to statutorily created position and it has a narrow mandate and then narrow mandate is on religious freedom and it's on every country in the world except one which is the united states and it's not only united states because this is a very robust and difficult debate in united states and we want to keep a bipartisan support for this topic but i am more you know stand if you take egypt for instance where donald trump said in april that president r.c.c. was doing a great job and was a great president. the question is what's so great about ignoring the escalating campaign of intimidation the violence and arrests against political activists many others who voiced criticism in april 17 senators including james rich the republican chairman of the senate foreign relations committee drew attention to

what they called serious concern about the erosion of political and human rights in egypt but you think they're doing great your boss was thumping thinks they're doing great. how do you think he compares to president morsi when he was in as you gyptian the leader of egypt how do you think sisi compares. he has tried to achieve more people who see. you think see iran were really gigantic you see is worse than morsi do you not think torture is worse no no i imagine when you see them go around cairo murdering babies do you know he's the head of the muslim brotherhood. a he's the muslim brotherhood. it's not. that strongly reputable of a group but you would rather have them in and so you see. is that he truly i'd rather have people not being praised who subject their citizens to. industrial

degrees of torture yeah and you saw morsi and the man who was responsible well it was mr sisi was responsible as human rights watch said and 2013 for one of the largest single day massacres in modern times in a city for which nobody has ever been held responsible somewhere between 40800 people die. it indiscriminate killing by egyptian forces who see didn't do that. i think there would be a variance of opinion of believing that the muslim brotherhood being in power in egypt is better than c.c.p. in a tower now i do not claim i don't think anybody in this administration with the c.c. is perfect or near perfect by any means you feet preys on him and i think that one's word that there would be criticism and that there has been criticism that there will be criticism but there i also believe there are people trying to work

with this government in egypt saying this is a major player in the middle east and in some way that we need to work with some ways when i was in the senate i worked a lot with hosni mubarak and president mubarak had a lot of problems and he did a lot of things that were highly questionable but you're still saying ok then what's the alternative and is it the muslim brotherhood yes that's the alternative well i don't think that's the right way to go. in january supposed to stay pohnpei i was in cairo he too was heaping praise on this the r.c.c. he said he's really taken to heart the ideal of religious freedom and he's done so with great power and great courage and he is to be lauded for that the facts are rather different when it comes to religious freedom in egypt on the egyptian christians who can lodge is no community lose live in a minefield of of legal and social disk. the nation you know and i mean maybe you

meet with more people that are dealing with religious issues in egypt tonight do i doubt it but i've met with a number of people that are practicing people of faith minority faiths in egypt. and here's what they tell me. that this is much better under the c.c. government than it has been even though you would prefer the muslim brotherhood they do not. there is communal violence is taking place and it is very discouraging . they are very appreciative of the signals that president sisi is sending from on time and top and trying to push they very much appreciate him dedicating in opening up a church because of the signals that it sends they are not appreciated as are being closed as well and let me finish this point if i could with you they appreciate some of that now i look at it and i see a lot of problems that are taking place. these are these are not the sort of thing where you you pick the perfect against what you have right now this is the sort of

situation where you say this is it's either candidate a or candidate b. within us and they would rather have the current situation than what they had. but not all that is the right for respecting religious freedom it would be nice if they would 14 churches was shut down by the authorities between september 26th seen in april 28th with cultic christian is denied access to them and for a service is prohibited in one village south of cairo they've been waiting since 2001 to have a church and last december they were attacked by muslims with stones no one was held responsible and the christians have had to suspend all that you know and all those things ought to be addressed. and we put those sort of a shoot out in our right they've got a gold star and the secretary of state not get a gold star he didn't say i give you a gold star now he said you did you look at our report our religious. freedom

reporting that the secretary issued on egypt he said and he cites a number of these problematic things that he said he's really taken to heart the ideal of religious freedom and he's done so with great great courage and he is to be lauded for that that's what he did so. he also put out that report made you look at the report which very few people read. and i would dispute that within the religious freak religious freedom community this is the gold standard to use your terminology this is the gold standard on religious freedom the secretary of state issued that report he signed it he cited it he put it forward and he stands by it. the best of the this talk about i think you should look at that report ambassador let's talk about the u.s. attitude to human rights because this is what is so much in so you tell us where it was changed one country pushes religious freedom any more than the united states. what about all the other fundamental rights well i'm asking you this one because

this is the one i work on and you asked to interview me and this is the one i know but the fact is the another country is as. give me another country that pushes religious freedom or the united states decides who is ever held a man a stereo on religious freedom before this one has anybody i would suggest to you there has not been a single nation before the sale to a minister on religious freedom went out and held one we'll consider that this is in the broadest thousands of people from around the world ambassador i understand that no but you tell me a nation that's better than us on religious freedom so i'm boss of the u.k. you may wonder about i'm not talking about me i just have read in china do you think i'm chinese better on religion or you taught us about religious freedom but i guess what i read was thirsty but this isn't the ministration has basically said goodbye to human rights diplomacy hasn't it now it has not served france real extremists and says religious freedom and human rights rex tillerson chance are 1st secretary and. state religion i am didn't know why he did not said to have really

just buried i'm a human right rex tillerson says it's risky and that too often promoting our values is an obstacle to advancing our other interests in other words don't let's let human rights get in the way of a good trade deal i may i submit to you that religious freedom is a human right. it's in the 1st amendment nice lady only one as well but if you won't even admit it's a human right will you admit it's a human rights a matter of what. you agreed to answer questions i agree to come here and ask them people in studio use they're not interested in a well i handle one area and that's religious freedoms are and in this area this is a human right it's in section 18 of the un declaration of human rights it is a fundamental human right there is no nation on the earth that pushes human rights of religious freedom any more than the united states more than the trumpet ministration does sir and you can't come up with

a single name of the nobody else that does it this is truly not my road to you last well but it is true your last meeting on religious freedom coincided with the creation of a new commission this year to explore inalienable rights in u.s. foreign policy is that right. you said last meeting you had sat with your last meeting on religious international religious freedom the one you held this year. you had a new commission this year to explore in alien the ball right out that was you know that i thought that was announced by the secretary but it wasn't at the ministerial if that's what you're referring to sir his is no no no i don't but it came roughly at the same time came from the same as i hear this with these are very separate entities but i mean you can can fight him if you want but they're separate entities there seems to be a growing impression that you're prioritizing religious rights at the expense of other rights. 2016 martin castro who chaired the u.s.

commission on civil rights wrote that religious freedom is often used as a code word for discrimination intolerance racism sexism homophobia and that out worry is present malice and. that what that worry that concern is present now is that. religious freedom in the space they occupy is religious freedom internationally it's not domestically. this is a fundamental right it's a fundamental right for everybody that exists all times all places for everybody and it doesn't in pinch on other rights it is up just like freedom of assembly is really just a religion other rights religion said here in the united states that it says in its if it does a person brings a lawsuit in and carries it on forward and they have the same rights as anybody

else just this commission that was set up on elaine inalienable rights has been openly is chaired by somebody who's been openly critical of same sex marriage do you want to see same sex marriage ban in the united states i don't have portfolio there sir you have the you i only have authority on international religious freedom you have to interview somebody else or do a confirmation hearing in 2017 you refused to give a direct answer when asked to state that there were no circumstances under which religious freedom could justify criminalizing imprisoning or executing people on the grounds of the g.b.t. status why did you know about that question. oh how not sure at that time but we i stand for whatever those rights are that the state department has been supporting that supports individuals around the world on their human dignity rights . that you and i support those as well. you don't buy any more it will be religious

on the grounds of sexual orientation you know i don't. support what state department does in this area the area i work in is religious freedom but as governor of kansas you issued an executive order rescinding protection against employment discrimination based on sexual orientation it was i did because there was not a statute that supported and i thought those should be determined by statute not by executive order. to your boss does that tell you want to talk about religious freedom. to a frustrated to asked last year your boss the secretary of state went as far as to suggest that donald trump's presidential victory could have been the result of divine intervention to buy into that narrative. that's the secretary's opinion. you know i know i'm not going to talk about theology with you to talk about religious freedom but i'm going to tell you don't you all you don't share his view all you do share is i'm not going to comment on it sir i mean other people in

the administration have said the same thing happened days sarah sanders until recently the press secretary went even further god wanted donald trump to become president she said. you can ask her about it sir i think i just don't have portfolio there i'm you're asking me questions that i don't have authority to answer you don't think this administration is in danger just a little too much piety and self-importance about it claiming of holy endorsements for them ultra. high i'm just not going to i don't have portfolio there sir you don't have a view one way or the other i don't have the portfolio you got to unite as the press secretary or somebody else that can respond to those questions i i can answer a lot of questions on religious freedom but if you don't like an answer from ambassador sam brownback it's been good to have you on the program thank you very much.

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this is news live from berlin protesters mock 5 years off demonstrating for democracy in hong kong they were out on the streets as they have been every weekend for the last 4 months but this time marking the anniversary of a so-called umbrella movement will say that. it's about ways full of president robert mugabe has been buried in his home village it follows elites.