this is not the kind of freedom that we. showed you how we become a gateway to islamist terror. an exclusive report from a destroyed city. in the sights of ah yes starts october 24th on t.w. . turkey's president tired bad one has launched along the threatened offensive against kurdish forces in northern syria so why now and what's the goal and won't impact will the push out on the region as a whole while president out of one says the turkish air and ground offensive aims to prevent what he calls terror corrido meanwhile u.s. troops have been withdrawing from the area that turkey says it plans to turn into a safe zone but how destabilizing could the offensive be on an already volatile region and for security in europe and one syria offensive whilst the

price. in a very warm welcome to the point with the focus on turkey's offensive in northern syria i'm peter craven and my guests. seders a t w foreign policy editor who say's a military operation in syria won't solve one's problems out. also with us is motor laming senior contributor at the berlin daily telegraph spiegel a meltzer argues that the middle east is facing further escalation the losers of the kurds and donald trump. and a very well welcome to sit down you know gala editor in chief of the middle east magazine sen if you believe that everyone has already achieved his. so you go in

goal but militarily this offensive is a very dangerous fall ok. thank you thank you all for being here today and i'd like to begin with you say. the long awaited offensive against kurdish positions in northern syria has begun as president has wanted is to clean now out war well we can say that a very dangerous phase has started so basically are do on once to with this military operation 1st get rid of the wife which it considers a terrorist organization affiliated with p.k. which turkey has been fighting with over decades and at the same time he also wants to create a safe zone where he wants to bring the refugees that are currently living in turkey there are 3500000 syrian refugees number huge number and he's saying he wants to bring about 2000000 of these people in the so-called safe zone most women what's your take on why the invasion why now it's cold after all operation peace

spring is that a peace mission. definitely not if you ask me why now it is the direct result of a telephone call that one had with the american president on the trump. in which promised to pull out as we just heard american troops there so it was regarded as it was meant to be the green light for for going ahead with this operation. even though the president after that made kind of retreat and saying it's should not be a better deal should not be 0 what i would regard offensive or things like that but it's very way vague terms like that so it's a peace mission no i don't think so because i don't think you will could ever fulfill all those goals is a strong kurdish opponent on that side to resettle a 1000000.5 or even 2000000 refugees it's

a task that he won't be able to fulfill. you say the president out of one has already achieved his political goals how come you so therefore every have to explain his political motivation in my analysis. there is a very strong domestic political motivation which is and we've seen this in turkish politics for decades since the p k k the fight with the p.k. has been going on to always use the conflict the kurdish question in the conflict with the p k k for domestic purposes he has 2 very strong opposition parties against him and recently we have seen a very interesting rapprochement between these 2 political opposition parties in parliament and these parties can agree on many things in particular on the fact that they want to get rid of out of the government but they can absolutely not agree on the kurdish question in particular the military operation in syria and so we saw the turkish national assembly the kemalist party the republican party that you had a one of his fiercest opponents potential opponent also maybe even the potential in

the sense that they might run against him successfully for the next elections they voted for the syria operation to extend is not dead and the a.t.p. which is a party which is voted by many kurdish people not people alone that many people voted against it. just this question about whether the president said one has got the go ahead for for from president trump or not does he need it how's he going to be what's your take well it's really hard to say what kind of a message she got from trump because his tweets are changing daily if not hourly. so you know way he did get the go because. american. military had to move from certain positions so that the 2 nato countries would not be facing each other in situ in a potential clash so of course that was very very important but at the same time

trying to say no i'm going to you know crash your economy you can't do this so he's saying he should not cross certain lines ok very mixed messages from the u.s. president there has been one truly astonishing trump from a tweet from among the others here it is we'll talk about in just a 2nd let's listen in. as i have stated strongly before and just to reiterate if turkey does anything that i in my great and unmatched wisdom consider to be off limits i will totally destroy and obliterate the economy of turkey i've done before i must with europe and others watch over. this mind boggling stuff say what does it mean with off limits well it's really hard to know exactly what he means with off limits but there was information that he does not he wants turkey to pay attention to the civilians to villages minorities and he wants

he doesn't want another humanitarian crisis that's one of the things. daniel what do you make of the relationship between president trump and president. on i don't think. i'm not an expert in reading trump tweets and the language that he uses to be honest i don't think he understand he knows himself what he's up to he's just like this was a spontaneous reaction to criticism is that ok i'm still in charge i'm still what i'm doing. obviously i don't promise to have a personal conversation that he's going to take care of the islamic state detainees of terrorists that everybody is afraid of and trump said ok view the america the europeans are taking care of you going to do it and this is an easy task for turkey and the most important aspect for trump and that is no surprises he doesn't consider syria a valuable asset and last year he already wanted to withdraw the troops from syria and now that they would be withdrawn many of his top diplomats and security experts

resigned over that decision because they were absolutely scandalised an outrage but it comes to no surprise to the kurds that american support for them would one day expire now the point is why doesn't he why did he stay for so long after the announcement last year because i think americans realized he himself realized that is. a very inexpensive and cost efficient mission to keep a foot in the door to keep a ball in the game and american troops didn't die like in vietnam moneywise they the whole mission was somehow ok and it was a very cheap way of somehow keeping leverage so his own advisors kept him in the game in the in the game by convincing him that it's not very expensive later on when one of his like top security experts. this national security advisor was kicked out his minister of defense was resigned and eventually trying to decision but again with all the confusion about it i think to the leadership of

the kurdish forces it comes to no surprise that americans would betray them one day talk about that in just a 2nd month or you want to. i would say it was very very personal decision office because he didn't consult with anybody not with the state department not with the defense ministry not with congress not with allies with nobody so i think it took everybody by surprise and i think it took the kurds by surprise as well because that's why they speak about betrayal and all these things and they really it's going to the heart because they were left alone they paid the highest price namely 11000 fighters against us died in the war for the united states gold to get crushed about the i.r.s. so i think it was very very hope what some people in turkey saying about this well if you look at turkish mainstream media you can see

a kind of celebration off this military operation but if you listen to few what is left of the opposition media than you can see people are serious is causing the issue they are worried that this is going to of course be bad for turkey. they don't see the safe zone as a realistic solution how are you going to move these people are you going to force them to leave turkey and to go to areas probably which they didn't even come from so there's a big discussion going on in turkey of course how is this going to be financed not just the safe zone but even the military operation how long is it going to go so there are a lot of questions. i think however there is a certain degree of consensus in turkey that such an operation however it is conducted is necessary in order of 2 to pursue goals of national self-defense now why is this timing from the purely military perspective interesting and maybe why

could the could the timing be conducive to the operation to the goals of the operation. of course the kurdish question of the kurdish resistance in turkey and on a toll in turkish territory would flip but at the moment most of the higher high ranking operatives of the p.k. k. of the kurdish. underground it's the of the kurdish resistance and now present in syria so i think from a strategic consideration turkey would say let's crush them that's them let's attack them as long as they're still in syria before the troops and their weapons are moving back in and i think there is another consideration which is or another calculus which i find interesting they are speculating on the fact that could since syria and the population of the northeast of syria would become disenchanted frustrated and even angry with the p k k that has come to syria from anatolia from turkey to build up this semi autonomous statelet and after all most

importantly the y.p. g. forces so they had that turkey is trying to drive a wedge between the syrian kurds and the p.k. k. kurds because of course they've always brand what's happening in north eastern syria operation but they know very well and the turkish. those at best that there is a difference between the syrian kurds and the p.k. k. however powerful the p.k. might be operating and then he can always count on the fact that none of the states because a living in iraq. syria is interested state in more autonomy is curtis aspirations ok we'll let's go by the president had one just for a minute we've talked about it's already what is his motivation was driving at this point in time we got the short report before we continue the conversation. northern syria is largely under the control of the kurdish y. p.g. peoples protection units vangie and american forces have long supported one another

in their fight against the islamic state terrorist group but turkish president everyone follows his own agenda he wants to ward off any recognition of the autonomy as kurdish region he labels the kurds terrorists and opposes them. for some time he's been demanding a security zone along turkey's border with syria 30 kilometers wide 480 kilometers long now he plans to resettle some of the nearly 3600000 syrian refugees to and from to. everyone has been coming under increasing pressure at home because of the refugees the mood among the turkish people has changed. we want them to get out fair response is possible we don't want them around us anymore even now more and more refugees are being repatriated to northern syria. is and one security isn't just power politics.

most are just want to come back to the kurds on the question of power they feel very hard done by they feel as though they've been stabbed in the back a very. often of the western media representatives the good guys in this story all these are good guys for the poor guy so to say i would say good i mean there are certain elements of the p.k. k. other organizations who use terrorist means to to come to to fulfill some aims they are right now the poor guys because they in the way profited from the civil war in syria from from from the stabilization in iraq things like this because that gave them the opportunity to finally come close to i wouldn't say state but to thomas kind of governing themselves. and that is the that is the put in question. if they can hold these things twitter stand on your my side let's come back to the point we're often told that the kurds have democratic structures equal rights between men

and women better schooling and all these kind of things you smiling yeah because it's so in particular in germany of course this is often romanticised and if we look at the regional context if you look at the other countries around and the way the states are managed you can say ok. this standards are pretty low so notwithstanding the p y d p k k and these codes organizations are far from being democratic though they use the word democratic a lot for of for for self marketing self that the thais know because they think that this is actually the implementation of democracy you know this is the basic ideology is a leftist extremist. pockley maoist stalinist influenced ideology that is far from being democratic that is even ruling in a very author terry in a way even though it differs from continent to continent from region to region of course they have been trying to involve all the other groups but human rights

record of the of the people id is. a disaster but you know you know it again you can think of the ones who pulled the main brunt of combat so you are something of a woman's who are now holding i assume custody and they say they no longer will we have a very big problem and people refer to them and people say ok if we look at what's what's around us if we look at the assad regime for example then probably this people idea of rule is not the worst of all options on the other hand there's also many kurdish people that suffer from it there is a lot of arab tribes that are very frustrated with this with the rule of the people id and even i think inside the people at the structures there is many who understand that this experiment doesn't really work and however. western governments and the united states in particular have created false expectations and they have said let's build up something new an alternative to the assad regime let's build something with with what we have there and let's see that life in syria is possible we can build up something and this is also one of the reasons by the

way why don't the su keen to crush this experiment because it should not however i don't think it's going to be a success but it should be of the risk that it could be a success must must be totally eliminated and then he has other countries in the region other governments in the region notably the syrian government that she has you so. and suzanne how worried are you about a possible resurgence of islamic state in the region well of course the u.s. is already except trump of course the u.s. is warning and also the e.u. is warning that if y. p.g. has to take its fighters away from these camps that isis fighters are being held that the y.p. g.'s guarding right now there's a high possibility that these camps will be freed somehow and there's a big probability that isis fighters will be on the on the loose and sulking about tens of thousands of people and supporters yes we are also talking about their families women and children but we should not think of them as innocent families

because they've also been radicalized so it's a big mess which if trump will stick to his word and say well ok are gone and the e.u. now has to take care of their. areas and in the middle east then it's a big problem for everyone is a big headache for everyone sort of irony because i mean the the kurds by and large have been a reliable partner of the west especially in the united states in the fight against the hass and they they were successful in crushing the i guess since march i would say. and so president trump is always saying this is one of his big successes that he together with the kurds trying to crush the yes though his green with. the kurds lost 11000 falling to the americans we don't know. but it was the kind of suicide really a bore the brunt of the fighting yeah yeah and so it's part of a bitter irony that now that bites back in the. bitrate of course others in the

region would say yes and they were the most efficient power in fighting the islamic state and the other had the presence of the so-called islamic state was the reason why they succeeded in building this autonomous state because otherwise they would never have received such as to mental international support and this is an argument that of course made a lot from turkish sources you see that. all sides in this conflict are accusing each other of being the main profiteer from the presence of the islamic state and in a way this is one of the reasons why these jihadist organizations always research because one side is always believing that they might hurt the other one more than they actually hurt me and this is a 0 sum game that's been going on and many many powers in the region were part of it and said what about these mostly for resettlement program that appears through count of president as many as 2000000 people being removed from refugee camps in

turkey back to syria regardless of where they came from originally it's it's a project of ataturk. dimensions almost well we know that turkey has already sent some people back to syria not to this current zone but to so some people are said to have gone on their own willingly some are said to be forced to go back to syria but we're talking about the current safe zone what one of the moment is talking about is about 220 kilometers long 30 to 32 kilometers deep safe zone so when you look at it in that sense it does not cover too well to the end points to closer to the iraq border than you see where the i ask camps are so right now trying to keep it in a smaller area if you will but exactly how he wants to send these people over who

are these people of course this is creating a certain insecurity in syrian refugees living in turkey it's going to be it's never going to go to work and it's actually a typical example of hybrids of a middle eastern power that believes that deportation policy can work it is against all international conventions where conventions to deport ethnic groups from or to a regional war and this security or safety zone that he wants. established contains all the major cities and the major strategic and economic essence of the region so by no way the kurdish militias the y.p. geo the p why do you go to sit there and let them do this there is another historical implication which i find very important to mention which also understands the trauma of people in the region the cities that we're talking about like the old us ally in where the turkish troops have been operating now these are partly originated in the armenian genocide they are there because of

a big ottoman project to exterminate and entire nation christian people from from the displaced christian people from the tolly a settled there and founded some of these towns and build up the culture in this region now to have the turkish government say we're going to resettle a certain number of syrian refugees there we're going to build houses and gardens for them sounds cynical and also of course brings that a lot of the trauma of the. president down to one of these points in time has metaphorically his back to the war on refugee policy within turkey itself so there is a real incentive for him to make the scheme work and perhaps use the leverage the house with european countries like germany to get them to. become financial support well that's what he wants of course he's already called on you to help him and and yes there is that the turkey e.u. deal but of course all of the e.u.

countries are extremely skeptical if not against the safe zone they've already said they want turkey to stop the military operations but at the same time at the moment i don't see anyone in the e.u. investing so what i don't want because who's going to finance. well i'm not so sure about that who's going to do is going to invest in these areas who's going to live there it has to be there has to be. you know according to. 2 international incidents here 2 on has frightened to open the floodgates for as he puts it some open the gate since he said it more neutrally for a few jews moving to europe and that could intensify he did that of course it could intensify of course there should be a plan for each and turkish to sit down and think of a plan how they want to take care of this the refugee crisis but that does not automatically mean that he is going to say ok well we agree and this inhumane way of finding a solution moving people to maybe even where they don't belong it's

a very complex issue we can't just say ok now you has to be on board with this but what's clear i think is with the e.u. turkey deal the financial support that you gave is supposed to end at the end of this year which of course the payments are going to continue until end of 2020 but i think also for i do once important to see that he will get support for refugees inside of turkey as well so that's another and i don't see much of a very much of us president promised mexico will pay for the ball mexico doesn't pay for the wall so there is this this agreement between the european union and turkey concerning refugees and both sides are. by and large keeping this agreement intact you pays billions of money and turkey with some exceptions. the refugees cross the border to be in union but resettlement program is not part of the agreement so the e.u.

is not obliged to pay for the vote. the final word we're running out of time slowly yeah i think you know out on has been has been in the region in the business for much longer than trump so i think he's a bit more serious with his projects but i don't think he's as naive as thinking that this is just you know he can really implement this big refugee plan i think it's a way of trying to talk to market his idea and he does that successfully however i think we have to take the sea of the refugee issue in turkey seriously we have to or not lecture the turks all the time telling them how to deal with refugees that doesn't mean that we don't want your opinion but we should understand that it is a serious issue and we should also not lecture the kurds on the human rights records because i think also it is a serious issue they find themselves in and then we can implement our policies much better when we try to get down from the moral high ground and to the point today be looking a very incursion by turkey into northern syria i hope we can you punch you through the companies we can someone by by and choice.

over.

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