but you need people to entrap let's say you want to know their story. reliable information for margaret. discover the fire. starts nov 14th. so you saying people use goes out of control well i don't believe they're out of control nobody forces you to break the law or do that the government part i think is probably kongs pro-democracy movement imagined it had been unqualified support of the international community it had better think again the british government has slammed what it called a hard core of demonstrators warning that violence was unacceptable and had to stop my guest this week here in berlin is joey sue a pro-democracy activist and spokes person for a number of students unions in the hong kong shouldn't movement now except that

it's time to make a deal with the hong kong government for that too becomes impossible. choice to welcome to some pressure if it's wrong for the hong kong police to use violence why is it right for the demonstrators to use. well 1st of all i don't think the level of violence used by projects are based on de intention to attack anybody i believe the intention of using violence is only to protect ourselves because saying that the police had been beating a protest. without a reason when the police are you saying they return it yes but they do more than retaliate don't they october 20th we have a group of hardcore protest has thrown petrol bombs the station police station in

retaliation we could only go one protester starved a policeman with a box cutter we have a homemade bomb which went off on the roadside by the grace of god didn't hurt anybody or killed anybody is that kind of violent crime talking about well what's the justification well i believe the justification is because when potus realized that peaceful demonstrations the marchers are no longer useful in calling the government to respond to it is demands i believe that's why it is a reason why did trying to use violence to express their anger expressed their fear and so against a police force and because round of violence. yes and i agree that in no means we should try to use peaceful means to call for response from the government and i believe to use age of violence would not be the resolutely enough force into government to respond to our demands are you saying the people who use violence now out of control well i don't believe they're out of control because one

of you for the protesters to enter the london financial times last month is called mark he's 17 years old he said i feel like we can't restrain ourselves anymore the hatred towards police is growing stronger and stronger can't restrain ourselves that sounds very much like so much movement which is getting out of control. i believe that is only some in defeat ok i believe on the on incoming ground that most of the protesters are still doing doing things on based on a reason for example like dave vandalized n.p.r. stations they vandalized those restaurants or other shops that are related to chinese funded companies because it will come a little. too but the measure is serious but some of you leading figures are worried by the violence of the johnson young was an organizer of the 2014 and brother movement who said every stakeholder should take action immediately if we don't want the violence to escalate to a point where the panic but why don't you stand up and so enough with the world

well i believe one of the principal amount to prattle about mostly taking no condemning any of our products or even though. the level of violence they use ours seems to be like escalating and might be posing some harms to the others so you move to almost chinese communist party unity that's vital for you and that is the amount you really can talk nobody can dispute what we do argue and we do discuss about our actions and even even after those vandalize asians we've got some discussions online on the online forums about and we do reflections of on on our actions so i believe there are those around and still goes on who can stop it who can or do it to stop. well i believe nobody can try to stop it unless it is so it's out of control than if nobody can stop it alas when the unless when the

younger generations send to gether they're willing to stand there with together with the older generation for example like so far like student leaders together with some so they can leaders from the pro-democracy side when. when these leaders try to stand up together and say now we have to do something peaceful and to stop the phallus i believe that might be a. there might be a way to stop the violence and other things and so it's pretty tentative so it's predetermined pretty difficult once the train is rolling nobody in your group can stop it that's that's dangerous and yes i agree so that's why we have been organizing peter marches and rallies to to try to switch the to try to switch the tactics that we're using on a platter saying to cover it government to respond to our demand and i believe everybody in the society has been working very hard for example that we are organizing general strikes we have been organizing class by cutting campaigns

because we would like to try to explore other piso means so that we don't have citizens baffin's if in the meantime you should god forbid killing the body and innocent possibility or us or a policeman you movements finished then you international support will evaporate over the us i agree and i'm prepared to take the risk and you won't come out in public and say we need to stop this the british government has slammed last week has slammed what it called the hard core minority so the violence was unacceptable this is the sound of you international support wavering and and believing the reason that. yes well i believe the ask elation of thousands and those violent scenes those might definitely be very concerning to the international society when all the free world countries are advocating using peaceful means to. bring the

situation to a restart but they're going too far already doesn't that matter well of course that matters but i think the most important thing is about how can we hold our government accountable and how can we bring them to respond to our to what about the judiciary you've heard criticism from judicial institutions in hong kong pretty heavy criticism these are the bodies and enjoy considerable respect around the world for the impartiality again if you're losing them this is a really bad sign for the law society for instance all forms of on the move for violence particularly against the police the use of petrol bombs against the police as well as the apparent attacks on the families of police officers and of the children at school. who proof of those methods bullying the children of police officers that school well i don't agree with those math that's still with. us

and so you don't agree with the violence and you don't agree with the bullying of the children doesn't sound as though there's much you agree with but you'll stay silent anyway now we had the effort using peaceful means for example like peaceful rallies marches to. to express our concerns and demands and but the point is that we do not publicly condemn those actions but still we try to use our peaceful means to use our own case for me is to try to switch to tactics. using intimidation mafia style and intimidation we have a report of one teenage daughter of an officer being harassed by another out while she was playing sport they said to her what your father is doing is disgusting since when are children responsible for the actions of their parents. well 1st off i don't thing any family members of those police officers should be responsible for their own disgusting actions and i'm able to you're making them responsible some of

your people are making responsible balloon them her assume what i believe that is happening but other or the law society says it's happening yes i can deny that it is actually happening but still we're trying to use peace so tactics to to bring the situation to a resolution and i believe like bullying family members would not be a very good way to solve the situation the hong kong bar association so do the hong kong airport constituted serious struction and was in open defiance of junctions granted by the courts in other words you broke the law do you want to live in the state governed by the room of the new or only the moves that you like of course i would like to live in a state of our floor however we can see that it is very obvious that the situation of we are flying hong kong is being broken not by the protesters but by the government itself 1st and i believe that's why protesters are marching on the

street are taking on to the streets even though they know that it will break the law and i believe to get around this is something you know the most important is to fight to protect the rule of law in hong kong and judicial independence but you're trashing it at the same time. well i believe breaking the law to protect a little more doesn't because well it is the government that forces us to take on the streets and to break the laws it is not approximately so this is you know very forces you to break the law or do that to government far as i said to do so i believe that's your interpretation but here here are these judicial institutions rule warning you that criminal contempt as they put it impedes the administration of justice and if unchecked will inflict grave and reprobate damage to the rule of law in hong kong grave and irreparable damage that's what we think you're doing to hong kong doesn't

a matter. of cost that matters but as i have mentioned what matters to most of us about whether we can actually bring a change to our political structure and government structure and that would be the common goal and would be the most important goal for us to achieve for. this moment and i believe even for the department of justice this self as in being totally independent for now after after the handover of hong kong from the british government to the chinese government we can see that our core values our traditional way of systems being encroached by the chinese government we can see from teresa and prosecutions that the department of justice is only prosecuting and putting those processes on court while they are at you still have independent judges you still have independent courts well. in terms of system they are independent however we can see that they're actually being very heavily influenced

by the chinese government and that they're sidestepping cases of for example like the 21st you not on 21st year long cases they're not prosecuting they're not taking any you have to try it straight to the court while they had been political prosecuting so many of the protesters and several rows of persecution decisions. if you have a son down with the government and hold a dialogue who talks to us who could also rise compromises that are essential in the kind of political dialogue who in your movement could actually sit down and authorize compromises i believe nobody could represent our movement because as you know leave the letters nobody will sit down with you you are not opening doors your closing doors when we are going oration you just said nobody to go through compromises will be considered the room for you represent you well back you have not supposed to talk to well back in the chief executive kerry has tried to

approach to several state in your there's a hong kong and we had rejected her offer because she requested a private meeting with some of this didn't you know hong kong which which is not even representing all the students in hong kong it would be a start wouldn't it it would have been a start it won't be a start it will only be a end to our movement because back in 2014 we see that kerry i'm trying to talk to some of the student leaders some of the leaders of the umbrella revolution however what we got our dirty after the dialogue was that. was to crack down after our movement and then carolyn did not fear any of her any of her promises in the dialogue and we felt like especially in this leaderless movement it's very important for us to have a public dialogue with as many stakeholders in the society as possible at least we cannot only have the student activists talking to kerry land ok we have to include other stakeholders you've put forward 5 principle demands of the hong kong

government you and your fellow activists the government is only addressed one of them which was the extradition bill which through with drew firm but in fact according to professor of nor the university of hong kong the government responded to all of your demands just not in the way that you want it you wanted an independent investigation into police handling of the riots you didn't get that but you didn't get nothing over the independent police complaints council appointed 5 overseas experts from britain canada australia and new zealand you didn't get everything but they did respond well i believe what are we calling for is not only a official demand for official response from kerry lam what we are asking for is about a concrete action by the hong kong government we're asking them to respond to our demands by taking actual actions for somebody to invited these experts from from britain canada australia new zealand i believe that is not was standing in for no

it's not exactly what you wanted but it's something we are asking for an independent commission of inquiry to investigate a police brutality however if a team dependent police commission it is followed by most of the. supporters how can we trust them how is that how nobody can put it i can't trust you overseas experts from britain canada. to me at least not the ones who make decisions to handle change you also want all charges dropped against protesters who've been arrested and they've turned that down. but how could they do anything else if your if you were found to broken the law you should be punished the same way as the police shouldn't you so why did why are you above the law so why aren't they punishing the police they have in the past police have been hauled into court punished we cannot even identify the police because they are not showing their warrants because they are not showing their numbers when we cannot hold the police accountable when nobody can actually punish the police how come to come from

government this could be charging our creditors with rioting even though they are only participating in some peaceful marchers there is that is not reasonable so they can die consider yourselves equal before them nor will the body else do we are equal before the law so why do you should you get an amnesty one if you've broken the law and the hong kong bar association the hong kong society seem to indicate that you have broken the law should you be punished for breaking the law while i believe our same for amnesty would be the best solution would be the best resolution to be sold to and hotter way of law in hong kong yes we're trying to yes we want but of the same time many want an amnesty you want to escape punishment for breaking the law i would say that in the society they do want to live in i would not say they're trying to escape from being punished when we have broken the law i believe the reason why protests are taking onto the streets is because. we want

a government to be accountable to us we want a government to give concrete actions as much to our demands and i believe that's why we are participating in peaceful marches lawful marches ever since june however the government the police have been accusing us has been arresting us for rioting and to reason why directing us is not reasonable at all how can they charge us so that's why we're asking all a couple to some of some of your other actions in the book when it comes to the future the worry seems to be that you don't have much of a plan do you except to keep fighting you said recently i have no idea how these protests will end or even what will happen tomorrow we feel like there is no way back so we must keep fighting as if you're a passenger in this movement but you're not a passenger in this movement you're one of the spokes people for this movement on to isn't it time you took responsibility for the well i think definitely are should

be taking some of the responsibilities of finding the way out for hong kong for the whole movement but the fact is when the situation like changing in a very in a very lightning speed every day we do not see our future we do not even know what would happen in the next day because back in june back in july we did not expect the government to be exercising its emergency powers don't have a plan of work to go do we want from saying we want all our demands met in full but it's the only plan you have. i mean to put it we do have a we do have a plan we are very clear that we have to rethink about our we have to rethink about the future of hong kong we have to think about a 2047 debt light and i believe that is the consensus among congress are there going to 5 demands we're trying to discuss we are trying to have discussions amount

different stakeholders in hong kong about our future after 2047 but at stake is not just your fate and your from the protesters but millions of other people who live in hong kong we're going to have to live with the fallout from your movement and from your movements actions for many years and you may be happy to bring china's rules down on your head but to collapse the roof or move. in hong kong is that really a responsibility you want to you're prepared to take well 1st of all i thing the majority of hungers are still in support of the movement and i believe most of us are quite clear that and i'm getting prepared that was we are going to move on or ones like. the chinese communist government would be using 1000 tactics to end the protests we are very clear that what the aftermath would be and i believe the majority of hong kong would like to take the risk in all their to you

know that in this change of the better future of hong kong but don't you have a responsibility to try and find a way back which preserves and strengthens what you already have instead of risking a crackdown in which you could lose everything i believe we do or i mean for the act of democracy politicians we do have to responsibility but after all i think their greatest responsibility is the hong kong government south and this is a project of the british government calls for a meaningful dialogue between parties with the critical political tract to protect the rights and freedoms set out in hong kong's basic law are you capable of opening meaningful dialogue from what you've told me so far you know or tell you what i believe the 1st criteria of having a sincere and meaningful dialogue would be the hong kong government itself trying to be sincere well last time when they were in fact he did in unison a dialogue they're trying to have it privately they're not willing to make it

public and to invite other stakeholders in there and even when they're trying to start i come back to that point it could have been the start how could have been a start when they're not being sincere we do not believe that would be any kind of meaning for consensus made in a dialogue when they're trying to arrest our fellow protesters when they're trying to put us in jail how can we believe that there would be meaning for a sincere dialogue at least they have to stop their prosecutions 1st really not forever but the alice have to show some sincerity. some sincerity people are worried that you're becoming increasingly rigid and inflexible dreams of change who lead a coalition of pro-democracy groups into the 14 says no one ever do is to say think about it or accept it anyone who does so will be severely attacked we come to a consensus we stick to that position and we cannot shift is that the way you won't be able to start negotiations this rigid in flexibility you're in danger of

becoming just as inflexible as but if you want to i believe that this question about the future of hong kong are how difficult it would go this is like my family especially in the recent days when we see that there has been an ask alasia of violence while we're not achieving anything we're not forcing the government to respond i believe there had been more in my discussions and well and i believe that like peaceful means would be the only way out for us to resolve the current situation in hong kong primarily inspired a group of your protests those have been beating up people who just think differently september the 15th we have a group of beat up of 49 year old hong kong man beat him unconscious because he did to challenge what the group was doing child hughton remonstrated with your phone or activists shouting the love china i am chinese but they beat him up unconscious had to go to hospital he was in critical condition when he arrived but you survived is

that the way you deal with people who think differently from me. well of course that there will not be the very ideal way i do you could you don't even condemn it when did i condemn any kind of. you have any and i don't suppose then if you're not going to have an answer posts inhuman treatment like this you can't even look me in the face and say i condemn this kind of in human treatment where we're not doing any kinds of public condoms but still we are trying to detect takes to a more peaceful way what about the violence and says that the scene is on supported ho how do you imagine you're protecting democracy by trashing a.t.m. machines and starbucks cafes how does that help you preserve democracy while i believe protestors are vandalizing underground stations vandalizing those chinese companies for a reason because they will like to bring actual harm to don't companies so that so

that because they don't support you it is not about it i support this as it is about they are not why it won't for themselves they have to have their windows smashed and i have to have their a.t.m. machines trashed because they just don't think the same way as you do and you want to preserve democracy well i believe that we're definitely not big best way however of doing that for a reason and they're not i mean they're trying to be rational and that's why we're not trying to condemn them publicly but still we do have the factions we do have discussions about this vandalization is and i have been more and more voices about that we should actually try to explore some peaceful way so you're taking part in the local council elections not you personally but on the ground who for 450 candidates from the pro-democracy group are you willing to switch your attention from demonstrations and violence to politics to the slow painstaking often tedious

business of politics in order to make hong kong work better for its inhabitants are you willing to do politics instead of just demonstrations. well i believe the 2 things have to go parallel because one side about politics when we've got pro-democracy activists trying to get into the institutions we're trying to change to government structure by by a democratic way by elections and at the same time we have to continue our projects so that we can put pressure on the hong kong government of south and i believe the 2 things are not contradict contradictory and that's why we have to make it go parallel and i don't believe that. we have to put all of our attention all of our focus on district council elections and try to stop any kaiser protesting that i believe that protests have to be in a peaceful way joyce you been good to feel complete so thank you very.

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the dorm with a share of the meal you can share with children with just $0.50 and a tell when your smartphone to gather global hunger please download the app. this is d.w. news these are our top stories. chile's president says he's asked parliament to raise the minimum wage by around 15 percent he's also promised to investigate human rights abuses by police as he tries to quell the country's worst unrest in decades truckers blockaded highways to protest against road tolls and demonstrators have again filled the streets of the chilean capital. one person has been killed and.