the people of east germany. tend. to clamor for german unity journalist peter limbo because it just seems. 30 years later he looks back on the. storage december 19th d.w. . when you do it in the west it's for public order them to do it it's a pressure ok part of the they can see any further you cannot fight one terrorist organization with another turkey has outraged many of its allies and partners with its military operations in syria and the whole catalogue of human rights violations against its own people my guest this week here at the foreign policy forum in berlin is turkey's presidential spokesman in bring him clearly how does he justify his country's highly controversial policies. and abroad.

even in cali welcome to comfort zone thank you let's start with mr arthur once trip to washington a couple of weeks ago. he went to change minds to change influential minds in the united states to talk about the justification for your military action in syria but he appears to have failed to change those minds comprehensively why did that happen do you think but for us to visit went well actually we have a good relationship with the trumpet ministration some people that the congress will be with trump rather than move ministration well if you want to make that distinction that's for domestic american politics to comment about but obviously some people in the congress have a different view the ones he hoped to influence how to differ here and our president made a very clear case actually. for why we went in there because our goal has been to

clear our border with syria from more terrorist elements for a better isis or p.k. related groups and yet they weren't buying it were they well i think they're meeting members of the republican party senator lindsey graham for instance chairman of the senate judiciary committee he seems to have particularly angered your president by talking about the military action as an invasion but what did you expect while he got his answer obviously our president told him very clearly that he cannot call turkey an invader but the president is also got his answer then he said the reason it's an invasion this is lindsey graham the reason it's an invasion is that's exactly what you did i warned you not to do it and everything that i was worried about came true in spades but it is senator graham who says a couple of years ago to ask quarter then the defense minister of the united states that p.k. is the same as p y d y p g p y d y p g in syria is the p.k. he is the one he said this on record now he's changed his position it's not for me to comment on his flip flopping on this issues but we have had

a very clear policy line on this issue we do not want to see any terrorist element taking over piece of land rolling over people in syria whether by k.k.k. or isis or al qaida or any other groups here but according to the pentagon that's exactly the effect of what you've done the pentagon said just a week ago quotes quoting information from the defense intelligence agency the terrorist organization talking about isis exploited the turkish incursion and movement of u.s. forces to reconstitute capabilities and resources within syria and strengthen its ability to plan attacks abroad that's exactly what you didn't want to happen isn't it well to the contrary actually it was p y d y p g in. that release about 800 isis terrorists in prison when president trump spoke to our president about what turkey is going to do about the isis prisoners on our president said very clearly on that phone call that we will.

take care of them that is we will keep them locked up we will not release them we will try them we will try to return them to their countries of origin and this is what we did but it was by p.g.p. why did that release them from prison in russell and they know this that's on the record eminently foreseeable that that would happen why will they did that and this why did why did why this is the result but why did why p.g. did that. for of for for that you very calm very well what's the answer the answer is that p y d y p g wants to use isis actually as a bargaining chip in the eyes of the west telling them that you know without the y d y p g the fight against isis will be successful they need p y d y p g on the ground to fight isis and be argued to the contrary from the very beginning you cannot fight one terrorist organization with another one you cannot fight isis with the p.k. k. but if the effect is that 6 months down the line isis in a much stronger position what are you going to do just say sorry feel military action we fought against isis in the jobless area with your face to shield

operation we have eliminated more than 3000 isis terrorists ve had about 1200 isis prisoners in turkey more than half of them are international setters some are turkish we are keeping them in prison we are not releasing them we are going after all isis elements if you look at the turkish syrian border which is about 911 kilometers all the way from to the iraqi border there is not a single isis element present in that strip of land you have cleared our border from the isis in fact we made this case to president obama before he decided or when he decided to support p y d y e g in the fight against isis we told them look you don't need p y d to fight against isis we can do this with the national elements in syria we can do it with the turkish army ok i don't want we don't need to have u.s. troops on the ground but you can provide air support ok and you can take care of isis they did on the island let me let me just go back to your justification for

this operation do you have a right to make your border area safe from terrorism to force militant kurdish groups p y e y p g out of this so-called terror corridor but very few countries are buying this slowly and if the job of a presidential spokesman is to sell the president's line you're not having much success. you look at the us ambassador james jeffrey there's. department's point man on syria he said turkey launched this operation despite our objections undermining the isis campaign risking endangering and displacing civilians destroying civilian infrastructure and threatening the security of the area that's not much of an accolade does none of that happen actually they claim he doesn't know what he's talking about well that's not what he told us in our meetings i've had many meetings with jim he's a good friend and of course as professionals we work on this issues together he may be a good friend percy now great narendra none of those arranged that you actually came true if you look at they said that there will be a huge humanitarian crisis with the turkish military operation it didn't happen

people went back to their homes they said that kurds will be attacked no kurds were attacked except p y d y p g terrorists on the ground they said christian minorities will be oppressed or killed none of that happened in fact it was our military that and these are just reasons why only and sure it's a plane. now there of worship being peacefully in russell and i'm talking about the army and church there so all the things i take away that you none of that had violations that they said would happen and have happened happened where where exactly give me some examples ambassador jeffrey interest and bastard jeffrey again gave you examples he said we would say that turkish supported syrian opposition forces who were under general turkish command in at least one instance did carry out a war crime and we've demanded an explanation you claimed you claimed a number of investigations were under way trying to human rights abuses so you're asking me about something you already know how many investigations by the way and

by whom and number of investigation by our military have been launched how many mr kalam how many some of them are operational details i will rather not you can tell me if there are any now writes probably us all to find out going on as a good journalist you don't know and you don't know why it's just a blanket excuses in this look if you look at the civilian casualties in the syrian war. can you guess how many people how many civilians have died in the operation in iraq or. make a guess we're not talking about no you're talking about syria those are talking about syrian civilians severely talking about writers human rights violations around 3000 civilian people died in iraq. the city of raka was destroyed level to the ground around a 1000 people civilians were killed in the resort and in mosul again in the fight against isis if you're going to talk about all this i think we should be very candid and clear about this issue and it would be nice to be high level your character your very very angry about your rights invest in young 9 to 11 series

very here in the fight against isis in mosul along how many civilians have been killed in our operation mr cowen you don't have a great record on investigating human rights violations do you so why should things be different now if in 2016 the un committee against torture cited credible reports of turkish more enforcement officials in gauging in torture and ill treatment of detainees the committee said it was concerned at the reported impunity enjoyed by those who committed such acts impunity doesn't suggest you are doing much investigation into those things does that we have a 0 tolerance policy towards torture we have in fact clear our prisons our judicial system for torture we've had this in the past but what you're referring to is what happened right after the bloody coup attempt on july 15th 2016 when the fetter terrorists carried out a quit in turkey killing 251 people

a dozen wizened suter tortured people i didn't say there is torture i'm not saying this to justify i'm referring to those who made those claims who were actually behind this quick temper killing 251 people injuring about 1200 people they had the intent to kill the elected president of turkey the reports mr kalin go on and on 2 years ago the ngo freedom from torture said that from 2011 to 2016 all the years where most of the one of the a.k.p. have been in power turkey was one of the top 10 countries for referrals after torture and in 2016 you moved into the top 5 no known investigations were carried out in a number of investigations have been carried the men. they said we have how many and by whom you want to say 203040 well i can give you what you will detail i'd like the truth i will i think i will be had like going to the exact numbers i don't have the reports of it and i'll be happy to send them to you in 273

in the council of europe's commissioner for human rights said the problem of effective investigations and impunity of security forces is a very longstanding and entrenched problem in turkey so you're not fooling anyone you know is talk of if you're not in the business falling anyone you're taking care of our own national security then you face this kind of credible national security threats against the p.k. k. or from the p.k. care from isis terrorists from fetter terrorists those terrorist organizations in the west only recognizes one of them that is isis because it attacks western interests but the others since they are only in turkey and attacking turkey the elected government security forces or the civilians nobody wants to talk about it mr cohen you sent in last month's you sent in your syrian proxy forces into the northeast corridor of the country knowing that in all likelihood they would torture abuse and possibly murder people because that's exactly what they had done in the

northern city of africa which you seized in 20 $818.00 isn't it not at all in august that year amnesty international reported you gave free rein to syrian groups armed by you to commit serious human rights abuses in africa that didn't happen in our friend there was looting enough and they were penalized but it's the same group of the by the way you're talking about the syrians themselves fighting for their own freedom for their own country against the brutality of the assad regime to which the western world has not turned a blind eye we're the only ones actually taking care of millions of refugees and the syrians in both turkey and on the syrian side it's the same syrian national army which the american supported or plumbers to support 5 years ago 6 years ago they changed their policy. in the course of time it's the same syrian people who fought against the assad forces in the in the perrier when they fought against assad and isis in that area everybody applauded them what's the situation when it came to when they came to p y d y p g held areas suddenly the air changed they said well there are terrorists

they are jihadists they are the same people who fought in the everybody is thankful to turkey for keeping things under control in italy because we prevent it and others maybe i don't see. much gratitude coming your way at the moment or basically taking care of about 7000000 syrian refugees for the last 45 years we are preventing another major humanitarian crisis and other migration for from there i know that doing more than anyone i know that like we do you know what the situation in africa is now it's very it's very calm no there is no very calm ok there is no ice is there is no p.y.t. there much of what you are saying you know you say journalists and you say it is very comparable in syria you said regional they are not a set about the reason they are upset about af and they lost a big chunk of land if you ask the origin of kurdish people living enough in which is about 400001 way in africa and ask them how they are being treated now

compared to how they were treated under p y d y peter control 2 months ago the un human want to ask around that question to months ago the un human rights of its reported the situation in africa contrary to your nice assurances remained dire armed factions have carved up the province into zones of influence there was repeated kidnappings torture extortion and assassination that some legacy you left behind doesn't it no look condi had cleared our assurance p y d y p g terrorists which are the marxist leninist leftist group which is supported by all the freedom loving liberal western countries including the trumpet mr ation which is really mind boggling for me that the united states will support a marxist leninist organization in syria in the name of fighting against isis. well what's baffling to them is that you have your forces on the ground according to

william roebuck who's the top state department official in northern syria your forces have committed abuses on the ground war crimes and ethnic cleansing he said on november the 7th turkey's military operations spearheaded by armed islamist groups on its payroll represents an intention laced effort at ethnic cleansing it was he added an unprovoked military operation that at the time he spoke november 7th had killed some 200 civilians and left over 800000 people newly displaced and homeless we heard this many times from the centcom people within the trumpet ministration which actually never again you just themselves are reconciled with the fact that we are taking this action against their so-called allies you want to direct us to you want them to recognize they are reconciling themselves with the p.k. here terrorist network in syria giving them piece of land and then while at the same time talking about serious territorial integrity or ethnic balance in syria how can

you explain the fact that you favor one ethnic group which is linked to a p.k. terrorist network the so-called kurds against all the arab kurdish non-peak. the arabs the christians the turkoman all the others serious they are coming to us telling us the oppression that they are living under under the vikings you must callant we've talked about some of the criticism of your actions especially from our allies but what you really want to stamp out is criticism at home isn't it on october the 10th your broadcast regulator. on the turkish media not to say anything critical about your action in turkey that there would be as they put it is erode tolerance of any broadcasting that might negatively impact the morale and motivation of soldiers or may mislead citizens through incomplete falsified or partially. information that serves the aims of terror in other words you put it anything that the government doesn't like and you're in deep trouble so much for

press freedom while you kind of freedom that media outlets in turkey day and all of your a lot of them you've closed down the internet you have all kinds of different views attacking the president every single day attacking me and us that's why in the 1st week of the offensive you closed down 839 social media accounts for sharing as you put it criminal content 196 people were taken in and they were cheering for indicating 24 reminded every trial that terrorist propaganda you would in a library proof of that have you you wouldn't allow that in the u.k. when you do it in the west it's for public order when we do it it's oppression since the 2016 coup or 10180 media outlets have been forcibly closed over 220000 websites blocked according to the ngo article 19 in september said scores of journalists remain in jail or the travel bans hardly a proud record for us that the ever they are dealing with news outlets that is

spreading propaganda for the terrorist network when you are dealing with such a terrorist that carried out that attempt on july 15th yes they had the media empire nothing out of the media empire in turkey you fling around isn't that the evil i'm talking are around these accusations xperia money actually to spread their propaganda now unfortunately they have a free reign free right here in western capitals they're all over the place according to the germany's own committee for the protection of the constitution the presence of the p.k. k. in germany alone i have the full report here that's in german i'm sure our german colleagues will know about this you won't mind if we now go through it this is not our report by this is germany's on on official report in fact when president bush than meyer came to tricky when he was foreign minister about 2 years ago i think our president presented this report to him as well said look this is your own report and. it wasn't take us any further know what it says as a question he says is that you are giving a free right here in germany why do you do that and as far as they are not doing

that in turkey as far as the west is concerned this was a report from a british parliamentary committee back in 2017 there is a fundamental intolerance of alternative narratives in turkey with the government broadly suppressing discrediting or punishing those who contradict its accounts of sensitive events look there are journalists who do their job. they are free to report have critical comment nobody has any problem with that there are those who spread propaganda who use actually id cards press courts but function as p.k. operatives who are and those are people who used to get to extreme conditions in your prison like for instance from jim who read newspapers really he were reported to have been the end result actually solitary resilin fine by the good man is in the 1st place he was put in prison by the glenister so that makes it all right now the non-elected members know what i'm saying this is this is the extent of the

power that these people had in turkey we are clearing them from the media out that from the judiciary from the police for delivering your cleaning you don't have anything against him no no no i'm talking about the effect of people that had in fact the judiciary via the security forces in their hands and now we are for clearing them most of the things that you're referring to in fact is a reference to this people i'm referring also to what the e.u. commission in its latest report called the backsliding on human rights backsliding in a number of areas affecting human rights it says your accession negotiations have affectively come to a standstill stand to end this isn't it because you have no intention of meeting the conditions for membership that have been set down by the have you ever promised to be a full member in the european union many many many times and then you violated human rights left right isn't and we've been made waiting since 6263 or fish really because an official date in 2004 and 5 it was our president president edwin

actually who put so much political capital into this and we were presented with a package of 36 chapters no candidate member was ever presented with this many chapters and then what happened 15 years later we open only one chapter close only one chapter i'm not even to say what you say you're the victim here you like to play the victim the victim of what bias against turkey i don't see myself as a victim i'm just stay. the facts look there is an enlargement process or fatigue in europe and there are creations to be met they want they don't want to and you don't need spend the cab and you don't negotiate fatigue in turkey also how long will it take another century for turkey to be a full member that's up to you isn't it one thing out of 5 and i think there are dishes that could happen or look most of that you're not there just talking about for example in eastern mediterranean today is related to cyprus if you remember what happened in 2004 with the underfed on the. for the unification of the island the turkish side said yes to greeks said no and what happened afterwards in fact

it's only what you want this is what turkey shares or us that you talked so much about is this part of the anti turkish chorus that you often talk about i'm talking about what are you what are you saying here failure can see you saying the e.u. is biased. in the in the e.u. after the referendum what they did instead of actually. challenging the greek side on this issue they accepted the greek side as a full member and that violated another key principle you don't bring in a bilateral territorial dispute into the e.u. they did exactly that and now for the last 1415 years we've been dealing with these issues but my point is that it's either cyprus or human rights issues or security or turkish but it's one thing after another that is presented as a as an excuse or an obstacle for turkey a membership ok so you know what you know what the conditions on where you are going to be we're not calling a day then we call it

a day you want to do it they can they're welcome to do it we are still committed to joining the e.u. as a full member nothing short of a full membership discount and let's just look briefly in the time we have left at the purges the people who were after the coup attempt in 26 i think i would answer the people who were fired from their jobs many thousands of them had to be cleared later on because the charges against them were nonsense where the thousands of people who were falsely implicated in the coup attempt had to be installed because the allegations against the war folks not that they had the chance to defend themselves before they were fired this is life from the your a.k.p. in the or we're getting hurt you have no i don't there isn't your light or the western side of berlin right now does it matter what on the eastern side you know how many people were fired from their jobs when the unification happened we're not talking about. german i'm not talking about you have to say i know you don't want to talk about this you have to be needed in france that irish thing you know any

country about your own issues you want to provide the context when it comes to turkey you deny me the right to state the context i'm asking the audience here how many people were fired from their jobs when the unification happened in 1000 this is give you the number 500000 people so you want workers these are soldiers they start with journalists these are diplomats you can play the what about game and it's very fashionable know i'm a while it isn't there you say what about what about being in a somewhat oh i don't know what about china or what happened in your trying to talk about you've heard searing the question the very same fact is the simple thousands of people were fired and humiliated and their reputations were drawn through the mud here before finally they were able to clear their names they because this is a judicial stat for this chap but look what happened in the meantime they have applied those who are cleared in fact are free either to go or to apply for their jobs and that's still

a process under way of course i'm not saying that everything is perfect there there is still room for improvement there are still thinks that we need to do to make sure that this people you know have their full rights but you have to see this in context your party has sat back and watch countless people's lives ruined while you through allegations that the that turned out to be false there is a judicial process oh or it should lie eventually eventually may there was there were the 4 for this $500.00 cares about the collateral damage they were with this 500000 people who were fired from their jobs during the unification because they were suspected of working for. the german eastern german intelligence thank you suspect we are talking about turkey we are talking about be talking about turkey and i think harry regards a military coup and i thank you very much for being on conflicts in our pleasure thank you very much. ok.

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a long long long long long. long long long long long. long. long long. respects. the flute. this is the news these are our top stories on come police have entered the political diversity for the 1st time since it was sealed off by be authorities 11 days ago it ends a siege that saw police facing off with pro-democracy protesters barricaded inside . european lawmakers have approved a new team to leave the executive branch of the european union. the lion and the $26.00.