in the year 2000 the documentary secretly chronicled the power grab to. actually answer everything was precisely planned instructions to the freedom of russia. vladimir vladimirovich to the ends justify the means. putin's witnesses starts december 13th on d w. last sunday's election in hong kong may have been strictly local but it sent a signal straight to the heart of made lunch china in the face of an increasingly violent standoff between democracy protesters and hong kong's beijing backed government a record number of voters turned out for the poll and handed a landslide victory to pro-democracy candidates for the city's local district councils and the resulting defeat took hong kong to the league of government by surprise and up the pressure on beaching without make

a crackdown on the protesters more difficult or more likely i'll call hong kong elections wake up call for b.j. that's our topic. on the. upcoming. welcome to to the point we've invited 3 highly knowledgeable guests to exchange views on what the hong kong election result could mean hunch when lead born in hong kong works for 5 years at deutsche of ella as a t.v. reporter and also on our china desk and she says what happens in hong kong should be a wake up call for the whole world the chinese regime is a danger to all free societies. which is an expert with germany's renowned battles money foundation and he says beijing's reaction to pressure is counter pressure not only hong kong will feel it but also the west.

and it's a pleasure to welcome glacier fong she is a hong kong native of the digital rights and political activist she's currently studying in hamburg germany her position the opposition might have won the election but not yet the fight for human rights the system is broken the fight can't stop here and it counts. now. so let me start out by asking the 2 of you huntsman and also glacier what you're hearing from friends and family at home what's their reaction to the election result they were very surprised because it was landslide victory and they didn't expect that they expect the democrats will win little power but not that much so they were very happy and they also expressed a lot of you know that they express their views on online for example from my friends well. most of the protests many of the protestors are actually still under

18 or do and they still convo and if they could a vote and the results could have been like even it could have been an even bigger victory for the democrats so that sounds like a pretty upbeat reaction how about in the case of your friends and family glacier what are they saying my friends are actually very surprised about well they're a little bit more pessimistic they were saying that oh now we have one district council so now what do we do up next and what everybody just things because we have one to district council election that means the movement is over many friends are kind of worried about that people would have. a person in that because we won that district council then that's it for them and we have achieved everything one but it's actually not the case so war less they're a bit pessimistic but they're still very happy about actually at least with show the world most of the majority are in support of the pen democratic parties and you yourself clearly have an opinion you say the protest can and should go on i'm not

saying that the protests have to go on like definitely but we have to continue to fight for our basic for human rights for example the right to run for office to write to felt for our leaders in our government i think this is what i mean by the protests should go on we cannot stop here because even though we won in this system but the system itself is already problematic and broken so we need to fix that before we can go any further in that. so they're not it sounds to me if i put that statement together with your own opening statement that beijing will sustain or even increase the pressure as if we're not likely to see any real climb down from the stand down of the past. i'm afraid that's what's going to happen i think this is actually much more than a wake up call because the alarm bells have been ringing for 6 months so this is more the ice bucket that you get if you really don't get out of bed the question is does beijing understand that the path that they followed for the last 6 months just

hasn't worked and that they've totally underestimated. the resolve of the hong kong people and that they've kind of belief too much their own propaganda because as far as i know beijing has been taken totally by surprise. by this result let's listen to what some of the protesters had to say after the election results to get a few more impressions about what people are saying in hong kong some would believe that we have won the election the people have won i don't think this is what we really want to ultimately what he wants his. loss to be enforced and the law enforcers should be doing that job but didn't just standing on the opposite side of the people i mean just awful everything to be honest like. for the search i like the protest. if it goes well and if joe biden well i think the protests will

just go down like this only otherwise you're just going to call all depends on how to cause me going to provide. a free election when more than 70 almost 80 per cent of people. why can't people get back to rights that our government we are not satisfy only elected that this or consulate. so as we heard there much is riding on what the hong kong government does next let's hear what the leader the embattled kerry lamb had to say following the election we have for fisherman formally withdrawn the bill which was of course of all of these so so so on wrist the next to go forward is really as you have put it to engage the people and we have started public dialogue with the community but unfortunately with the unstable and vironment and

a chaotic situation i could not do more of that sort of engagement i hope that the environment will allow me to do it now. kerry lamb and other members of the establishment in hong kong were as surprised as i guess your families were as well apparently they had been expecting that the election would reveal widespread protest fatigue among ordinary citizens instead it did reflect this widespread sympathy for the pro-democracy movement where does that leave kerry lamb i think she's really right now because it was just like russia long has said it was like a referendum and it clearly shows that that hong kong people really want the protests to go on and that they are demands should be should be met and that police are in a very difficult position because of course she has to listen to beijing as well because she conscious ok let's get the month people glacier would you have expected kerry lamb to be more conciliatory than what we heard there and do you think we may

still see her make significant concessions it wouldn't be the 1st time that she has backed down i don't think she would have the approval for beijing to back down because backing down would make both the government of the beijing government look kind of ridiculous on the global arena because china has always use strong hand approach to deal with all descendents in china or in hong kong before so we i don't expect to see kerry lamb or the beijing government to back down for it but i think they will have to i think they were approach a wait and see approach for the next week and see how does the peaceful assembly going on next week and then they will decide but i think if their government is not escalating again or if they can stop the police from police brutality then maybe there is little room for a scale down of the process but i also think that the vessel is actually show that most out of hong kong are steel that the use of force by the protesters actually

more or less legitimate or at least can be justified because i think the police and the government has already lost this let's. mysie to rule and to protect its citizens property or their life because in july for example in your long the n.p.r. station when the train members attacked and there's an passer bys the police were not there and when supporters were attacking passer bys those who were only doing peaceful protests are stacking up and walls the police were not there and they system cannot hold the polies responsible for their wrongdoings and that's why hong kong hers paper protesters and also the radical processors are very hard to be defied because they see they need to use a force to make them feel safe or at least feel like that let's come back to the use of force in just a moment cause we do have a little report about that but i 1st like to try to read the tea leaves in beijing if possible bad so the chinese government's initial response to this election result was quite muted what do you think we can interpret from that what will be

going on right now in beijing i think they're reorganizing because they were totally surprised and they didn't expect that this movement would really have such white support from the from the hong kong public and i think what they'll try to do know is get the feeling for is this something where they can negotiate a couple of years ago when the umbrella movement was the big demonstration in hong kong there were actually some office from beijing site towards. some changes to the electoral system i don't think that's on the table again no but i hope at least that they have reconsidering their position let me yeah i think i don't think this is this would make beijing feeling the pressure that they need to reform the electra system that actually it was suggests the otherwise because the government beijing now knows if its full democratic election they will lose for sure even

though they're from that general figures we can see that the pro-democracy can can only have 60 percent of support from hong kong respect that's why then that's already the majority i think beijing sees that danger of giving full democracy to hong kong because it means they will lose total control over hong kong so i really don't think it will be a. chance for beijing to see oh maybe we should do a reform because it wants to tighten its control over home call you know angry and also beijing will not do that because if beijing is backing down then it means that the protests with scene which has turned. violent recently that means that works so it won't happen that beijing bow down let me ask you a little bit more about kerry lambswool because kerry lamb of course is the conduit for beijing even in hong kong so on monday interestingly enough leaders of the main prob agent party were televised bowing collectively in

a public apology a probe aging labor federation blamed kerry lamb for their group's losses in the election that sounds like she is deeply discredited on both sides both of these of the hong kong citizens but also these of the beijing itself so what would you expect to be her fate going forward i think her fate to be going forward will be it will be a very difficult situation for her because you've already framed it very good she's in a position where she doesn't get support from any potties. not from the pro-democracy side not from the prospective from camp and not from beijing as well of course beijing says they will support her but she has to listen to carrie lee has to listen to beijing and that's making her very difficult to stay and heroically so question to you glacier are there credible alternatives to carry lamb bearing in

mind that her term as as far as i know only goes until 2022 is that correct and in fact these district councils they do not really have much say in larger politics but there is a committee on which members are represented that will have a say in the next chief executive so my question to you would be are there credible alternatives to kerry lim who perhaps could find a middle path that she hasn't found i haven't seen any credible political figures in hong kong that would be able to resolve the political turmoil because this political turmoil not only this 6 months but also that those before the smaller scale for example the umbrella revolution or the ones before these are saying this is signaling there's something very wrong with the system fundamentally there's something wrong with one country 2 systems even because that was supposed to be a temporal solution to the problem of handing back handing over to china but this

system it's not a very stable and long term solution for hong kong and china so actually this signals there has to be something fundamental going on with the system itself to be able to resolve all the political turmoil that has been accumulating sins maybe 2003 so i but i don't see any figures that are strong enough or powerful capable enough to stand out and say ok let's deal with that sort of that way and i believe a democratic fully democratic system is the only way out of this any chance whatsoever that would ever agree to that we're not talking about the difference between in the sense the short term that we've seen in the protests that we've seen . in these cautious and the much longer term namely the ultimate goal of china that hong kong would be fused into a larger china is there any any chance at all that that ultimate goal for i think it's 2047 a 7 would ever be adjusted. i'm really set to say i see no

chance at all and think there's no alternative to fighting for it but in the current political climate in beijing this is not going to happen the only hope that there is is that there will be a phase off the heat in being that the hong kong situation shows that there are many things wrong with hong kong with its china its didn't see what was coming up in hong kong there's so many other issues it's not going very well for xi jinping and the communist party the hope would be that they go back to a reform and see that they are paying a high price for this for the time being hong kong is paying the price but there's a much bigger price to pay and that's coming home to roost for beijing so that fight for human rights let's come back now to the question of the protests and the violence after increasingly violent confrontations between protesting students and

police hong kong actually has been pretty quiet this week with the protesters holding off for now to see how the government responds but they have left little doubt that they are ready to resume let's take a look. at the violent confrontations in hong kong hit a new explain when police stormed university buildings leading to numerous injuries on both sides. right from the start the special operations brigades have been taking ever more drastic measures to get the protests under control including tear gas. meanwhile the protesters rage is boiling over and the reluctance to strike back is evaporating on top of the police brutality the hong kong government's refusal to consider the demands of millions of citizens is especially frustrating to the demonstrators. and growing numbers of young activists are left with the impression that peaceful protest will achieve nothing more and more resorting to violence. but frustration can easily become blind to destructive rage

. what kind of violence is justified in the struggle for democracy. is that question right or do you how much violence is justified under the circumstances i think it depends on each context of living in a fully functional demoed democratic country of course violence is annoyed justified both for and hong kong the situation is a bit different like in june 2 1000000 people nearly a quarter of the population march in the street peacefully but then the government simply replied with no to it and that's it and refuses to listen all along the way we try to make dialogue for the government simply just ignored us so i read a slogan on the legislative council on the news when people started into it says who taught me that peaceful protest doesn't work and i really feel how upset and frustrated protestors are and i think because protestors in hong kong there is now

feels like that the police or the government are not able to protect them as i have said that's why they result to force nobody would like that actually it's actually very dangerous and it's very frustrating and tiring at the same time i think most people with enjoy their life peacefully and quiet but they feel like that the government has left them with no choice because they never listen when we tried to go into the system in 2016 candidates got banned from running and even this time in the district council election banned from running for office in his district and it actually shows that the system doesn't work even though you enter the system you can be disqualified as legislators another thing is i don't think there is or the so-called violent protesters are attacking struck buildings or people are randomly they actually have specific targets and well justified reasons behind that for example they go into m.t.r. stations because before they empty are has allowed the police to go away and they. deterrence for state assistance and they have how out there what is happening

inside friends out west asia so i feel like it's more or less justified to give answers yes let me ask. if she also sees it that way and in view of what ben had told us that he doesn't see this regime in beijing backing down from the long term goal which precludes democracy in hong kong are we basically seeing a generation of young people who may wind up. giving their lives or at least their future chances to this fight they are already doing this because when they go onto the streets right now and protest they risks to be getting arrested and once they get arrested they could be charged and the terms can be up that they could be jailed up to 10 years and they are already doing this and i've also spoken to some protesters very young protesters and what they've been telling me is that they are willing to do this because they feel that they are young enough and even if they get into jail for 10 years when they come out they are still young and that's why

they are doing this for. people who are now maybe 2020 something because they feel like they still have the youth to do this and this is this is very sad to me to listening to that that they are trying to sacrifice themselves. and have ever since the protests began there's been a lot of speculation about whether beijing would eventually authorize the tiananmen square type crackdown in other words a violent repression of the protests now surely this election result discredits beijing as well as kerry lamb does that make a crackdown war or less likely. i mean home medium term i would hope it makes it less likely i don't think it would work in hong kong because this is not like gentleman the central square with a lot of people the protests to souls. and and evaporate that's this this water metaphor that hong kong protesters have of use i don't think

nowadays with the technological means that beijing has you need to crack down with tanks i'm very pessimistic though about. whether beijing is going to give the protesters more room i think they're slowly working their way through the ranks and putting pressure on them with every possible means and i'm afraid in some ways this is going to work because they're making people's lives felt so how would you answer the question that was at the end of our report just now how much violence is legitimate under such circumstances i don't think the violence has done the protest a great service you know better how to negotiate with your own government from a foreign perspective this has really undermined the narrative and it has given a big propaganda. present to beijing because they could argue look at this violence i think the more subtle means gathering in molds and

singing glory to hong kong it is much more effective and much more subtle and makes it much more easier for foreign governments to support this not only towards hong kong but also in their communications with beijing let me ask precisely to the point of foreign governments what you think the outside world should be doing hunch when said the election is a wake up call to the whole world what would you want to see other countries other powers doing i think other countries should to seeing the case of hong kong or even in other parts of china for example. in the western part of china. the weekers what they are what they have been suffering with years are the ethnic minorities in china and there recently there have been leaks that showing that proving that that they are on the so-called ethnic genocide some people would describe in this way actually being held in concentration camps just successfully n.

so i think the case of hong kong and also and she and john for example really shows that how how beijing is governing its cities all of the places and i think the whole world should now really look into this and say no that's not going to to work this way and if you want to defend human rights that's the point right now that's time right now to do this and if you wait for it and the other 5 or 10 years who knows what china who grow into seclusion the u.s. just has passed in relation not only to hong kong but also that. a hong kong human rights and democracy act that would sanction officials responsible for human rights violations and also makes economic relations with hong kong conditional on the u.s. secretary of state certifying that hong kong remains autonomous from china would you say that kind of pressure is helpful and should there be more of it for example also from europe from germany i think it's very really helpful because right after the bill is passed and both of. us. chinese authorities were furious

7 different organizations from the authority have spoken as like a combo of base keep saying that they regret that bill was passing something like that and i think if the european union or germany will at least propose some legislature or some policies like that this kind of gesture showing that we are not going to tolerate chinese violation of human rights would be very helpful in terms of the hong kong situation or those i think i thought in order to use and china because it's it's a really good show of gesture saying that we are actually closely monitoring and we may will take action the situation worsens there's a. a lot of concern here in germany also in europe in general that the u.s. and china have come in gauged in a standoff that almost resembles a new cold war and i often hear voices in germany saying we have to find a middle way in this case does hong kong do the only go or show us that germany

needs to take a much stronger position i think it's right that we have to find some kind of middle way because we just don't have it not to act on the global stage that the u.s. is but i think everyone agrees that at the end we are on the western side of things if we are forced to take sides then we'll of course we stand with. western values the question is are we being forced and issues like on kong and chin just to put this forced on us and that is good because it forces us to make big decisions let me ask all of you very briefly were basically the end of our time wake up call to beijing will it be heard not only there but in other countries yes or no yes yes. ok well that's consensus thank you very much to all of you for being with us and thanks to you out there for tuning in so you set.

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to. read books on the hijacking the news. more i go wrong the news is being hijacked journalism itself has become a scripted reality show it's not just good vs evil us vs them wacky in one. in countries like russia china churchy people are told it is that simple and if you're a journalist here and you try to get beyond it you are facing scare tactics intimidation. and i wonder is that where work heading is well. my responsibility as a journalist is to give me on the smoke and mirrors it's not just about being prayer for balance or being neutral it's about being truthful. when he was printed off and i were giving the other.

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this is the news live from the european parliament declares a climate emergency. piled the pressure coming commission president. to keep. the climate neutral $52850.00 also on the program of convicted not dressed to be returned to germany from the united states after 13 years behind bars. so it insists that he's had since. it was pretty forcing tragedy in police chief accused

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