i subscribe to do you know where your books are or something more in the world than what we make the chapter 5. books on to. let china have a lot of what you read about greed mites most people all the training camps training which reminds people of the racial camps it is now and although very much at stake in hong kong china is recent celebrations for its 70th anniversary one quite good public relations triumph they were supposed to be not worth continuing protests in hong kong and fresh revelations about human rights abuses in michigan jack reacher my guest this week here in london is victor gao the chinese academic and lawyer and vice president of the center for china and globalization how does he

justify china's catalogue of human rights abuses and the continuing pressure on hong kong. welcome to come to thank you for having me china has always insisted that it will do anything to avoid chaos it shot a large number of its own people in beijing 30 years ago to do that but it's failed comprehensively to address the protests in hong kong why maintaining stability has always been a pillar for china's development since the late a 19 seventies but it's failed to do it in hong kong the hong kong is a different ever since 9097 told this part of china that china has practiced a one country 2 systems so in hong kong. the primary responsibility of maintaining

law and order is resting on the shoulders of the whole cot he said our government and the chief executive carried the hong kong government that's approved by beijing absolutely hong kong is part of china and one of the one percent is doing beijing's business not doing it not doing it very well is it it's failed it's failed to keep the hated extradition more or didn't it was forced to withdraw that it tried threats calling the demonstrators rampant and did range them warning that a blow from the sort of law was waiting for them in the future. these threats affect well i think there are china not understand what is dealing with hong kong i think there are many different ways to look at what's happening in hong kong i would say the primary situation right now is law enforcement you are talking about a restoration of law and order in hong kong and democracy of course when the

british left hong kong in 97 it did not leave behind a lot of democracy to talk about but the british did leave behind a deeply entrenched the rule of law traditional i think we all need to be very grateful for that and it is now law and order very much at stake in hong kong we should not be confused with many other grievances and political pursuits in hong kong they are important and they need to be drilled with but law and order is the primary responsibility of the hong kong government right now visit to go look at the results of the local elections in november the enormous blow to china's prestige 22 years after the territory was handed over by britain the pro-democracy tripled its vote from 2015 they won 17 out of 18 councils none of which they previously were allowed me to make several points 1st of all the district election result speaks for itself however the district councils in hong kong cannot operate

without stability and evolve as prevailed none of the 18 district councils can release of the primary purpose they are set up for you are missing the point of my question perhaps intentionally i don't know but the point is that this was the largest probate in party which was forced to declare defeat for this major defeat we said we do not want to find any excuses and reasons this was star chair of the largest probating party this is a big blow to tell in this press d.c. . no my reading is very different home closer to marcus e. and there is universal suffrage in hong kong for the people who call for the district council elections therefore the fact that the election results are such speak loudly for the favor of hong kong has democratic rights people can vote whatever they want to do for the results speak for themselves because none of the

persons are running for the described district council had a in the courage to stand out for violence they stood for legal and lawful means of exercising their democratic rights i think that counts so so long as democracy democratic rights are exercised the peacefully and lawfully everyone is a winner no one is a loser what we need to a pope's in hong kong is violence you that is the key you ignore the fact that china's plan has been to chip away at hong kong's freedoms and democracy until they were all meaningless and then beijing got reassert full control that has been that has been the plan hasn't it well a long again with due respect i disagree why should beijing of the central government in hong kong take away any liberties or freedoms in hong kong with their deal they did mr y like the kidnapping of 5 homegrown booksellers is that and to turn up in mainland china the crackdown on those who led the 2014 process the

highly controversial decision to allow mainland chinese police to operate in the west kowloon station all this is chipping away at the freedoms of hong kong to beijing imagine that people wouldn't notice this i think we need to really keep an eye on the big picture that is ever since the 1997 hong kong has managed to keep its relative independence judiciary independence for example political system there has been no change in search or if you talk about specific cases. we can go into details if you have more time let's deal with universal suffrage because that's been most controversial the refusal of the hong kong government to move towards universal suffrage for the chief executive position as outlined in the basic law even after the standing committee of the national people's congress in beijing route 2017 could see the start of universal service with this position the

date came and went so the promise hasn't happened has it and perhaps beijing never intended that the promise should be fulfilled and i think we need to be clear as to what we are talking about universal suffrage no problem with that you already have universal suffrage for the district council election in hong kong as we wish using it doesn't. it or its meaning because it's a very important that you don't have it for the chief executive despite the fact that it's promised it's in the basic law then again allow me to measure who you are talking about universal suffrage or direct election of the chief exec exactly does the united kingdom have to re-election for the prime minister not all we are not we're talking about what's in the basic move for hong kong but we're not talking about what things are like in britain or in america or on mars you can play the what about game indefinitely i'm talking about hong kong what it said was in the in the basic law the ultimate aim is the selection of the chief executive by universal

suffrage upon a nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures and that didn't happen did these questions are everywhere for everyone to see the in a certain universal suffrage is dollar problem direct election that the protesters are now demanding is a problem because why do you want to give something that neither the united states nor the dollar can have had 400 of those years is what they see that they were promised mr prout. right now as you pointed out hong kong residents have freedom of the press freedom of the internet absolute dependent courts multi-party elections even with the district councils this beijing seriously think that by 2047 these people are ever going to willingly give up. and i think the one country 2 system approach comes to an end in 24 plies only up to 2047 now remember when 10 shopping

were still alive and he was the key architect for the one country 2 system he said for the record that if the one country 2 system will work out for the 1st 50 years why couldn't it be extended for another 50 years so there is an uncertainty as to what will happen in hong kong after 2047 i would say everything will come to their end if for example violence continues in hong kong however if stability prosperity development and the improvement of the people's living standards are the normal things all the way leading up to 247 why couldn't the one country 2 systems apply more years it'll give me you have to talk to beijing's leadership but if the if if things don't go to beijing's liking and i'm sure they're not too pleased about the protests than the demands for freedom and the demands for china to live

up to its promises in its international obligations. do you think people are going to accept life in china crushing level of censorship what the un high commission for human rights recently called a context of increasing limitation on fundamental rights in china people in hong kong will ever accept allow me to mention one point you know putting hong kong in the overall magnitude of the scale of china or whatever bad things that have happened in the home of the past 6 months things in china is is is at the best it can be called a storm in a teacup it's not going to change meaningfully anything that's happening in people's republic of china at all what beijing is are happy about and adamantly is the poles to is the violence in hong kong let's be honest as straightforward with their no country either britain of the united states will tolerate the level of violence that has engulfed hong kong for the past 6 months no country and one or

more of those china step in and stop it some of. them well let's speak philosophical about it if you read the basic law the primary responsibility of maintaining law and order rests with the hong kong government the s.l.a. failure proved government yes it's a doll's a mandated by the basic law my point is though that if china fully takes over control of hong kong in 2047 and i think so little of human rights as the un says it does do you really expect the people of hong kong to embrace the kind of life you have and challenge i mean the legal obligations and commitments the multiple laws decrees and policies in particular those concerning national security and terrorism which the un says deeply erodes the foundations for the viable social

economic and political development of society you think after having the freedoms that they have in hong kong they're going to accept. kind of life from china let's be honest about it china is in firm control of the situation in hong kong as far as solar it is concerned no one in the world can really 2nd this 2nd guess this point or really take hong kong away from china that's for the record let's do not 2nd guess about that of course on the one country 2 systems hong kong peeps its political system in hong kong the capital is the system but do you think anyone will realistically expect the hong kong can be misused as a strong hold against china no i that. day oh all the way to 2047 months in the question i asked which is when the beijing imagines hong kong would set the kind of restrictions that. people in the mainland after 2047 china has folders question to decide what kind of political system will prevail in

hong kong much more no one full of hong kong gets in return for being subsumed into chile in a chance to be spied on by what human rights watch called one of the world's most intrusive mass surveillance systems whatever happens will happen in hong kong after 2047 their finest records of arbitrary detention torture and violations of right trial you really think the people of hong kong a 2nd class i need some of that in my life not only looking forward to that i think in today's world that we should be very objective and non-biased about china let's look at how china's developing let's look at china lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty let's look at how our hong kong has benefited a tremendously over the past 22 years after being part of the one country to system after china we exercised is sovereignty of the holocaust this is the make it

let's talk about says it was the guy in an interview earlier in the year you called . it unfortunate censorship in china you said hopefully eventually there will be less censorship leading towards no censorship of thought and i hope they'll be a day when people in china can freely watch foreign broadcasters that's pretty full on hope isn't it when you consider that 400000000 extra c.c.t.v. cameras are going online and the unprecedented degree of intrusion by the state into people's lives that we're seeing things are not moving in that direction you hope that what you call to was my view earlier this year is still my view today and i think it will remain my view for the rest of my life but it's a lesson on hope business things that are not going this way not lesser such a ship may be good however every society has its own says divisions do says all about look at the united states this says a lot of things that the people here in britain do not care about in britain new

says other things in israel there's a problem if you go you're talking about a very serious rise let's just stay with china you admitted this you said the monitoring of social behavior of people in china does exist there are quite a few aspects of that which i personally do not like is the detention of around a 1000000 with their muslims engine junk one of the aspects that you don't personally like i visited many times i have many wheedle friends islamic friends in charge didn't ask you that i deal with them as brothers and sisters i think to really ask responsible questions about we need to know the spread of terrorism and separatism and extremism. hasn't been a terrorism issue in general for the last 4 years why because you were the government was it locked up people without rights and without recourse and without any redress and with the ability to challenge their own incarceration i think

that's a good way of doing things we're talking about the detention and so cool. training centers which were 1st denied and then finally admitted by beijing last year the un says people were sent there 'd under the guise of counter-terrorism and the extremism policies which you just mentioned and amid extensive limitations on the exercise of fund the mental rights. part of the. make a point terrorism just did not come out of the vacuum terrorism is the result of a process and the process is very much dominated by indoctrination and extremism for example engine john there is no denying there is an increasing level of radicalization many families actually deny their kids the right to education which in china is considered as an offense or a crime no one in china has any right to deprive their kids mr ground war is i

believe one was expressing concerns about increasing practices of arbitrary detention in forced disappearance absence of judicial oversight and restrictions on the right to freedom of expression freedom of thought conscience and religion quite a list isn't quite a list also the right to freedom of assembly and movement within what it calls an increasingly securitized environment this is a catalog of rights to which your government has formally signed up in bungling international treaties and which it is now violating wholesale a number of asking you whether you're proud of all of that 2 points 1st of all the united nations generally speaking is in line with what china has been doing over the past 4 decades or so it's around the line with the treatment as you well know more than 50 countries in the world support what the japanese government is doing in dealing with terrorism extremism separatism so hardly beacons of

human rights many of which are muslim countries let's let's be honest about many of these countries. islam and many of the inquiry's states you're proud that the u.s. challenge israel mind you say that all in the world no really you're proud that the un had to remind you that you have an obligation to respect and protect individual rights under the universal declaration absolutely human rights are a very very important you know why do you think all you have your international obligations because you're violating them wholesale noise he'll put it in international contests the united nations keeps reminding the united states and many other developed countries of the rights that they failed to give to their people that's on a routine we're not talking we're not talking about the u.s. i know you want to evade it. you cannot you have to lay should we can't that's we can absolutely talk about what china is doing in isolation but one of the requests for information submitted to beijing last month by 12 u.n.

human rights rapporteurs was was this please provide detailed information on the judicial oversight and control exercised by judges of a persons placed in reactor cation facilities following charges under the counter terrorism law let me make a bet with you this request is never going to be answered by. this i hope with my help or with other people's help you can do an interview joe i can help you to read some of these you know are saying my question it's not because i was not going north of this because there's no judicial oversight over the 1000000 or so we as in detention most of the inmates have no the been charged with not convicted of any crime nor being given any chance to challenge their incarceration as i said earlier and that's fair and you're happy with all that no i think you miss called the situation radicalization is a process at different stages of radicalization you need to come up with strategies

to deal radicalize the population including for example what i emphasized for the red. not denying any family is misbehavior of depriving their kids the right to go to school thanks to leaked documents and despite considerable attempts at secrecy we now have massive amounts of detail about what these institutions are doing including a leaked manual for officials running and operating these places one of the documents that was released describe detailed controls on each individual the student should have a fixed bed position a fixed cue position a fixed classroom seat and fixed station during skills were strictly forbidden to be change you like this kind of repression you support this kind of oppression. you may call it repression or you may call it educational or training school or teaching methods if you go to a cadet school for example if you're training for the u.k.

military you need to exercise alcohol as hard as we are comparable mr gubb we've also seen beijing's instruction to officials in these camps implement a view of the norms and discipline requirements for getting out rocor washing going to the toilet organizing and housekeeping eating studying sleeping closing the door and so forth you're trying to build robots inch in jan no what you're read about reminds most of people of a training camp over training is that it reminds people of the incident ration counters in the mines people of concentration and what will serve china to concentrate people up to let's say in using only at number 1000000 or 2000000 this is not a concentration camp as far as based on my personal knowledge of my dealings with the wiggles brothers or sisters in this is not what you are describing are violent past cries from reality. not not according to the evidence seen by the un and

democratic governments around the world these camps let's call them concentration camps they violate all basic rights and freedoms belong to human beings under the universal declaration of human rights which you are supposed to abide by not i would say that china fight this war against terrorism let the british fight your war against spread terrorism and let stalled confused terrorism extremism and the separatism with what you would call human rights no longer even if one accepted your prefix you have taken away every right that the set you have illegally incarcerated these people without trial and without any chance for them to challenge that incarceration that is illegal and i would hope that doesn't. to your international obligations i would say you're imposing your view of the rule of law onto china let china have its on the rule of law this is the rule of law all

offenses at is as it see fits we are not talking about britain we are not talk here by your united states we are talking about a sovereign government with legal rights to deal with the threats of terrorism and extremism we are talking about lies asia that's the key in china no one in china wants to be a victim of terrorism the guy you're like you know that he was a shirt according to the doctors you're looking at people who harbor vague understandings negative attitudes or even feelings of resistance carry out education transformation to ensure that results achieve that's the instruction that beijing gives you look here people who harbor vague understanding is that all they've ever done wrong and for that you put them in one of these camps and throw away the key so you're wrong and you think that's ok and i think a lot of people including the u.n. and human rights organizations believe that you have forfeited the right country so

you are quoting something as if it is from the bible no this is not sacred things this may not be verified already using your standard of journalism i hope you'll be realistic it's an validated by considerably people than journalists i hope you will really verify this with tell me it's not all journalistic standards are you telling me it's not true i don't think this is true because what china is faced to with is terrorism radicalization and separatism and extremism that's the menace in china which is also faced by many other countries in the world look at the bombing here in london and look at the terrorist attack against innocent people who really want to have this kind of terrorist. disease prevailing in your country or europe we have a common common task to do and you are united against terrorism and that's

a challenge not faced by china long that's a challenge faced by mankind as a whole. you're a lawyer mr geiger yes you're even a lawyer who's licensed to practice in new york absolutely do you think out of this kind of behavior by government is acceptable that's remarkable i think the labor's test is to put that end to terrorism that's to keep not why shouldn't. draw and human rights wholesale that's what you say you want that surveillance from the line with the reality on the ground for you have no shame about these conditions this opa-locka protect your human rights protecting human rights will always be the most important thing as promoting democracy but on the other hand fighting terrorism and extremism is equally important in china as well as eagle k. or anywhere else in the world that's the bottom line we need to work together to

fight against terrorism. but to go thanks for being a cop gets. above

. playing an internment camp. managed to escape from china. and turkey other weaker the work force and the home reflect conditions in the camps. wants to tell her story so the whole world can know the plight of her people. in 30 minutes on t w. it was the speeches. his life perhaps his best

certainly his most difficult chancellor helmut coolidge addresses the people of east germany shortly after the fall of the wall. the crowd clamors for german unity journalist peter lim borg was at the scene. 13 years later he looks back on the tightrope act in dresden in 75 minutes on the move. in the other night of climate change. because most of. what ideas do they have for their future.

g.w. dot com africa megacities the melting just. click the towns or. the big bang that created today's world. in the ninety's. a good term for it in politics business and german. law in iran meet the people of the islamic revolution under the title hamas he had always dreamt of a state in this sharia law which ruled. china opens up making its initial flirtation capitalism. strikes in states of emergency britain sinks into chaos margaret thatcher remarks in coverage them to work and they will was it the start of meal liberalism. chunk of the 2nd physics problems in chance that threatens the old order. over

a bit this could be the end of coming. world wide prices and. the story of an era that defines our lives today. 1979 the big bang that created today's troops december 23rd t.w. . this is d w news and these are our top stories the u.s. house of representatives has voted to impeach president donald trump majority democrats won the vote which split along party lines the articles of impeachment needs now to be passed to the senate where republican majority is expected to vote to keep president trump in office you know minutes right. here straight on state of new south wales has declared a state of emerge.