the larger. oh come on the ground is empowering women giving. them. the female peacemakers storage january 5th t.w. . let china have a lot of what you read about the mice most of the people all the training training for months before the racial characters if you snarl and all that very much at stake in hong kong china is recent celebrations for its 70th anniversary one quite a public relations triumph it was supposed to be not worth continuing protests in hong kong and fresh revelations about human rights abuses in machine jang region my guest this week here in london is victor gao the chinese academic and lawyer and

vice president of the center for china and globalization how does he justify china's catalogue of human rights abuses and the continuing pressure on hong kong. welcome to conduct so thank you for having me china has always insisted that it will do anything to avoid chaos it shot a large number of its own people in beijing 30 years ago to do that but it's failed comprehensively to address the protests in hong kong why maintaining stability has always been a pillar for china's development since the late 1970 s. but it's failed to do it in hong kong the hong kong has a different ever since 9097 told this part of china that china has practiced a one country 2 systems so in hog. the primary responsibility of maintaining law

and order is resting on the shoulders of the whole caught he said our government and the chief executive carried government that's approved by beijing absolutely hong kong is part of china and one of the one percent it is doing beijing's business not doing it not doing it very well this is it it's failed it's failed to keep the hated extradition more didn't it was forced to withdraw that it tried threats calling the demonstrators rampant in the range them warning that a blow from the sort of law was waiting for them in the future. these threats affect well i think there are china not understand what is dealing with hong kong i think there are many different ways to look at what's happening hong kong i would say the primary situation right now is law enforcement we are talking about a restoration of law and order in hong kong and democracy of course when the

british left hong kong in 1000 only 78 did not leave behind a lot of democracy to talk about but the british did leave behind a deeply entrenched the rule of law traditional i think we all need to be very grateful for that and it is now law and order very much at stake in hong kong we should not be confused with many other grievances and political pursuits in hong kong they are important and they need to be dealt with but law and order is the primary responsibility of the hong kong government right now if it took a look at the results of the local elections in november the enormous blow to turn his prestige 22 years after the territory was heard it over by britain the pro-democracy camp tripled its vote from 2015 they won 17 out of 18 councils none of which they previously were allow me to make several points 1st of all the district election result speaks for itself however the district councils in hong

kong cannot operate without stability and evolve as prevailed none of the 18 district councils can release of the primary purpose they are set up for you are missing the point of my question perhaps intentionally i don't know but the point is that this was the largest probating party which was forced to declare defeat for this major defeat we said we do not want to find any excuses and reasons this was starring the chair of the largest probating party this is a big blow to tell in this best days. no my reading is very different hong kong is a democracy and there is universal suffrage in hong kong for the people in hong kong for the district council elections but therefore the fact that the election results are such speak loudly for the favor of hong kong has democratic rights people came forward to whatever they want to do that speak for themselves because

none of the persons are running for the discrete district council had a in the courage to stand out for violence they stood for legal and lawful means of exercising their democratic rights i think that counts so so long as democracy democratic rights are exercised the peacefully and lawfully everyone is a winner no one is a loser what we need to the pope's in hong kong is violet's you that is the key you ignore the fact that china's plan has been to chip away at hong kong's freedoms and democracy until they were all meaningless and then beijing agree assert full control in that that's been the plan hasn't it well a lot again with due respect i disagree why should beijing of the central government in hong kong take away any liberties or freedoms in hong kong with a deal they did mr y like the kidnapping of 5 homegrown booksellers is that it's

a turn up in mainland china the crackdown on those who led the 2014 process the highly controversial decision to allow mainland chinese police to operate in the west kowloon station all this is chipping away at the freedoms of hong kong to beijing imagine that people wouldn't notice this i think we need to really keep an eye on the big picture that is ever since the 1997 hong kong has managed to keep its relative independence judiciary independence for example political system there has been no change is set or if you talk about specific cases. we can go into details if you have more time let's deal with universal suffrage because that's been most controversial the refusal of the hong kong government to move towards universal suffrage for the chief executive position as outlined in the basic law even after the standing committee of the national people's congress in beijing route 2017 could see the start of universal service with this position the date

came and went so the promise hasn't happened has it and perhaps beijing never intended for the promise should be fulfilled and i think we need to be clear as to what we are talking about universal suffrage no problem with that you already have universe of average for the district council election in hong kong as we would you say doesn't. mean it's a very important that you don't have it for the chief executive despite the fact that it's promised it's in the basic law and then again allow me to measure who you are talking about universal suffrage or direct election of the chief exec exactly does the united kingdom have to re-election for the prime minister not all we are not we're talking about what's in the basic law for hong kong but we're not talking about what things are like in britain or in america or on mars you can play the what about game indefinitely i'm talking about hong kong what it said was in the basic law the ultimate aim is the selection of the chief executive by universal

suffrage upon a nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures and that didn't need these questions are everywhere for everyone to see the universal suffrage is not a problem direct election that the protesters are now demanding is a problem because why do you want to give something that neither the united states nor the dollar can have had 400 years is what they see that they were promised mr prout. right now as you pointed out hong kong residents have freedom of the press freedom of the internet actually dependent courts multi-party elections even with the district councils this beijing seriously think that by 2047 these people are ever going to willingly give up. and i think the one country 2 system approach comes to an end in 24 plies only up to 2047 now remember when 10 shopping

were still alive and he was the key architect for the one country 2 system he said for the record that if the one country 2 system will work out for the 1st 50 years why couldn't it be extended for another 50 years so there is an uncertainty as to what will happen in hong kong after 2047 i would say everything will come to an end if for example violence continues in hong kong however if stability prosperity development and the improvement of the people's living standards are the normal things all the way leading up to 247 why couldn't the one country 2 systems apply more years it was give me you have to talk to the beijing's leadership but if the if if things don't go to beijing's liking and i'm sure they're not too pleased about the protests than the demands for freedom and the demands for china to live

up to its promises and its international obligations. do you think people are going to accept life in china crushing level of censorship what the un high commission for human rights recently called a context of increasing limitation on fundamental rights in china people in hong kong will ever accept allow me to mention one point you know putting hong kong in the overall magnitude of the scale of china or whatever bad things that have happened the home of the past 6 months things in china is is is at the best can be called a storm in a teacup it's not going to change meaningfully anything that's happening in people's republic of china at all what beijing is a happy about adamantly is a pollster to is the violence in hong kong let's be honest and straightforward with their no country either britain of the united states will tolerate the level of violence that has engulfed hong kong for the past 6 months no country and one or

more of those china step in and stop it some of. them well let's speak philosophical about it if you read the basic law the primary responsibility of maintaining law and order rests with the hong kong government yes so the failure proved government yes it's a mandated by the basic law my point is though that if china fully takes over control of hong kong in 2047 and i think so little of human rights as the un says it does do you really expect the people of hong kong to embrace the kind of life you have and challenge i mean the legal obligations and commitments the multiple laws decrees and policies in particular those concerning national security and terrorism which the un says deeply erode the foundations for the viable social

economic and political development of society you think after having the freedoms that they have in hong kong they're going to accept. kind of life from china let's be honest about it china is in firm control of the situation in hong kong as far as over india is concerned no one in the world can really 2nd this 2nd guess this point or really take hong kong away from china that's for the record let's do not 2nd guess about that of course on the one country 2 systems hong kong peeps its political system in hong kong the capital is the system but do you think anyone will realistically expect the hong kong can be misused as a stronghold against china no i that. day oh all the way to 2047 or go unanswered in the question of us which is where the beijing imagines hong kong would set the kind of restrictions that. people in the mainland after 2047 china has folders question to decide what kind of political system will

prevail in hong kong what more no one full of hong kong gets in return for being subsumed into children or a chance to be spied on by what human rights watch called one of the world's most intrusive mass surveillance systems whatever happens will happen in hong kong after 2047 their owners records of arbitrary detention torture and violations of rights. you really think the people of hong kong are 2nd class i need some of that in my life not only looking forward to that i think in today's world that we should be very objective and non-biased about china let's look at how china is developing let's look at china lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty let's look at how hong kong has benefited a tremendously over the past 22 years after being part of the one country to system after china we exercised is sovereignty over holocausts to make it let's

talk about says it was the guy in an interview earlier in the year you called. unfortunate censorship in china you said hopefully eventually there will be less censorship leading towards no censorship of thought and i hope they'll be a day when people in china can freely watch foreign broadcasters that's pretty full on hope isn't it when you consider that 400000000 extra c.c.t.v. cameras are going online and the unprecedented degree of intrusion by the state into people's lives that we're seeing things are not moving in the direction you heard from what you call today it was my view earlier this year it is still my view today and i think it will remain in my view for the rest of my life but it's a lesson on hope business things that are not going this way not lesser such a ship may be good however every society has its own says divisions do says about look at the united states this says a lot of things that the people here in britain do not care about in britain e.u.

says or other things in israel because as a mother you go you're talking about every other sized yes just stay with china you admitted this you said the monitoring of social behavior of people in china does exist there are quite a few aspects of that which i personally do not like is the detention of around a 1000000 we are muslims inch and young one of the aspects that you don't personally like i visited many times are many wheedle friends islamic friends in chad didn't ask you that i deal with them as brothers and sisters i think to really ask responsible questions about we need to know the spread of terrorism and separatism and extremism. hasn't been a terrorism issue in general for the last 4 years why because you were the government is you have locked up people without rights and without recourse and without any redress and with the ability to challenge their own incarceration you

think that's a good way of doing things we're talking about the detention and so-called. training centers which were 1st denied and then finally admitted by beijing last year the un says people were sent there under the guise of counter-terrorism and the extremism policies which you've just mentioned and amid extensive limitations on the exercise of fund the mental rights. part of the. make a point terrorism just do not come out of the vacuum terrorism is the result of a process and the process is very much dominated by indoctrination and extremism for example engine john there is no denying there is an increasing level of radicalization many families actually deny their kids the right to education which in china is considered as an offense or a crime no one in china has any right to deprive their kids mr ground war is i

believe one was expressing concerns about increasing practices of arbitrary detention in forced disappearance absence of judicial oversight and restrictions on the right to freedom of expression freedom of thought conscience and religion quite a list isn't quite a list also the right to freedom of assembly and movement within what it calls an increasingly securitized environment this is a catalog of rights to which your government has formally signed up in bungling international treaties and which it is now violating wholesale a number of asking you whether you're proud of all of that 2 points 1st of all the united nations generally speaking is in line with what china has been doing over the past 4 decades or so if there is in line with the treatment in change and as you well know more than 50 countries in the world support what the japanese government is doing in dealing with terrorism extremism separatism so

hardly beacons of human rights many of which are muslim countries let's let's be honest about many of these countries. islam and many of them are. you proud that the u.s. challenge israel mind you say that all in the world no really you're proud that the un had to remind you that you have an obligation to respect and protect individual rights under the universal declaration absolutely human rights are only very important you know why do you think all you want your international obligations because you're violating them wholesale noir feel put it in international contests the united nations keeps reminding the united states and many other developed countries of the rights that they failed to give to their people that's honorable t.v. we're not talking we're not talking about the u.s. i know you want to have a did you know it's not even you you cannot you have a single isolated we can't have that can absolutely talk about what china is doing in isolation but one of the requests for information submitted to beijing last

month by 12 u.n. human rights rapporteurs was was this please provide detailed information on the judicial oversight and control exercised by judges of a persons placed in reactor cation facilities following charges under the counter terrorism law let me make a bet with you this request is never going to be answered by beijing let's do this i hope with my help or with other people's help you can do an interview joe i can help you to read some of these you know armstrong my question it's not because i feel a thing is not going north of this because there's no judicial oversight over the 1000000 or so we get in detention most of the inmates have no the been charged with not convicted of any crime nor being given any chance to challenge their incarceration as i said earlier and that's fair and you're happy with all that no i think you missed called the situation radicalization is a process at different stages of radicalization you need to come up with strategies

to deal radicalize the population including for example what i emphasized for the reg. thought denying any family is misbehavior of depriving their kids the right to go to school thanks to leaked documents and despite considerable attempts at secrecy by beijing we now have massive amounts of detail about what these institutions are doing including a leaked manual for officials running and operating these places one of the documents that was released describe detailed controls on each individual the student should have a fixed bed position a fixed queue position a fixed classroom seat and fixed station during skills were strictly forbidden to be change you like this kind of repression you support this kind of oppression. you may call it repression or you may call it educational or training school or teaching methods if you go to school for example if you're training for the

military you need to exercise alcohol as hard as a comparable mr gubb we've also seen beijing's instruction to officials in these camps implement behavioral norms and discipline requirements for getting up rollcall washing going to the toilet organizing and housekeeping eating studying sleeping closing the door and so forth you're trying to build robots inch in jan no what you read about reminds most of people of a training camp over training is that it reminds people a lot of contrition camps in the mind of people of concentration and what will serve china to concentrate people up to let's say in using only at number 1000000 or 2000000 this is not a concentration camp as far as based on my personal knowledge of my dealings with the way goes brothers or sisters in this is not what you are describing are violent are cries from reality. not not according to the evidence seen by the un and

democratic governments around the world these camps let's call them concentration camps they violate all basic rights and freedoms belong to human beings under the universal declaration of human rights which you are supposed to abide by not i would say that china fight this war against terrorism let the british fight your war against spread terrorism and let stalled confused terrorism extremism and the separatism with what you would call human rights and democracy even if one accepted your pretense you have taken away every right that the set you have illegally incarcerated these people without trial and without any chance for them to challenge that incarceration that is illegal i would think that doesn't. to your international obligations i would say you're imposing your view of the rule of law onto china let china have its on the rule of law this is the rule of law all

offenses at is as it fits we are not talking about britain we're not talk here by your united states we are talking about a sovereign government with legal rights to deal with the threats of terrorism and extremism we're talking about lies asia that's the key in china no one in china wants to be a victim of terrorism is the guy you allow you know that he was a shirt according to the doctors you're looking at people who harbor vague understandings negative attitudes or even feelings of resistance carry out education transformation to ensure that results achieve that's the instruction that beijing gives you looking at people who harbor vague understanding so that's all they've ever done wrong and for that you put them in one of these camps and throw away the key so you aren't and you think that's ok and i think a lot of people including the u.n. and human rights organizations believe that you have forfeited the right country so

you are quoting something as if it is from the bible no this is not sacred things this may not be verified already using your standard of journalism i hope you'll be realistic it's an validated by considerably people than journalists i hope you will really verify this with me it's not journalistic standards are you telling me it's not true i don't think this is true because what china is faced to with is terrorism radicalization and separatism and extremism that's the menace in china which is also faced by many other countries in the world look at the bombing here in lebanon look at the terrorist attack against innocent people you really want to have this kind of terrorist. disease prevailing in your country or europe we have a common common task to do and you are united against terrorism and that's

a challenge not faced by china long that's a challenge faced by mankind as a whole you're a lawyer mr geiger yes you're even a lawyer who's licensed to practice in new york absolutely do you think being out of this kind of behavior by government is acceptable that's remarkable i think the labor's test is to put that end to terrorism that's the key no why shouldn't i. draw and human rights wholesale that's what you say you want to that's a liaison spend our time with the reality on the ground probably have no shame about these conditions protecting human rights this are protecting human rights will always be the most important thing as promoting democracy but on the other hand fighting terrorism and extremism is equally important in china as well as eagle k. or anywhere else in the world that's the bottom line we need to work together to

fight against terrorism. but to go thanks for being.

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being born in this. you are a liar come prove it since you want to look for no school ticket you want to be useful but on the outward look when you're sick the doctors know when you fall in love they won't. you don't have children for fear they'll be invisible to. us you. know. when you've gone there's no proof of who ever existed. and every 10 minutes. someone this is. $10000000.00 people in the world the stakes they have no nationality and the total made up of all of them and. that everyone has the right to. everyone has the right to say like your own home.

the for. this is deja news live from berlin a deadly attack in moscow now russia's intelligence headquarters. a gunman opens fire causing people to run for cover the state security officer is shot dead before the gunman is neutralized we'll get an update from moscow also coming up indian authorities crack down on nationwide protests against a controversial new citizenship law police arrest hunt.