take personally you went with wonderful people and stories that make the game so special. for all truth. because for them for online. when you do it in the west it's for public order them to do it it's oppression ok a lot of it because any further you cannot fight one terrorist organization with another one turkey has outraged many of its allies and partners with its military operations in syria and the whole catalogue of human rights violations against its own people my guest this week here at the foreign policy forum in berlin is turkey's presidential spokesman ibrahim kalin how does he justify his country's highly controversial policies. and a broad. brimmed

cali welcome to conflict zone thank you let's start with mr adie once trip to washington a couple of weeks ago. he went to change minds to change influential minds in the united states to talk about the justification for your military action in syria but he appears to have failed to change those minds comprehensively what about happen do you think but for us to visit went well actually we have a good relationship with the trumpet ministrations some people that the congress will be with trump rather than the ministration well if you want to make that distinction that's for domestic american politics to comment about but obviously some people in the congress have a different view the ones he hoped to influence how to differ yeah and our president made a very clear to. actually for why we went in there because our goal has been to

clear our border with syria from more terrorists elements for a better isis or p.k. related groups and yet they weren't buying it were they well i think they are meeting members of the republican party senator lindsey graham for instance chairman of the senate judiciary committee he seems to have particularly angered your president by talking about the military action as an invasion but what did you expect while he got his answer obviously our president told him very clearly that he cannot call turkey an invader but the president also got his answer didn't he said the reason it's an invasion this is lindsey graham the reason it's an invasion is that's exactly what you did i warned you not to do it and everything that i was worried about came through in spades but it is senator graham who said a couple of years ago to ask quarter then defense minister of the united states that p.k. k. is the same as p y d y p g p y d y p g in syria is the p.k. he is the one he said this on record now he's changed his position it's not for me

to comment on his flip flopping on this issues but we have had a very clear policy line on this issue we do not want to see any terrorist element taking over a piece of land rolling over people in syria whether by k.k.k. or isis or al qaida or any other groups and you have according to the pentagon that's exactly the effect of what you've done the pentagon said just a week ago quotes quoting information from the defense intelligence agency the terrorist organization talking about isis exploited the turkish incursion and movement of u.s. forces to reconstitute capabilities and resources within syria and strengthen its ability to plan attacks abroad that's exactly what you didn't want to happen isn't it well to the contrary actually it was p y d y p g intolerably out and russell on that release about $800.00 isis terrorists in prison when president from spoke to our president about what he's going to do about the isis prisoners on our president said very clearly on that phone call.

that we will take care of them that is we will keep them locked up we will not release them we will try them we will try to return them to their countries of origin and this is what we did but it was by p g p y d that release them from prison in and they know of this that's on the record eminently foreseeable that that would happen why will they did that and this why did why did why this is the result why did why p.g. did that 4 of 4 before that you very clearly are well what's the answer the answer is that p y d y p g wants to use isis actually as a bargaining chip in the eyes of the west telling them that you know without p y d y p g the fight against isis will be successful they need p y d y p d on the ground to fight isis and be argued to the contrary from the very beginning you cannot fight one terrorist organization with another one you cannot fight isis with the p.k. k. but if the effect is that 6 months down the line isis in a much stronger position what are you going to do just say sorry feel military action we fought against isis in the jobless area with your face shield operation

we have eliminated more than 3000 isis terrorists the have about $1200.00 isis prisoners in turkey more than half of them are international citizens some are turkish we are keeping them in prison we are not releasing them we are going after all isis elements if you look at the turkish syrian border which is about 911 kilometers all the way from the to the iraqi border there is not a single isis element present in that strip of lent you have cleared our border from the isis in fact we made this case to president obama before he decided or when he decided to support p y d y e g in the fight against isis we told them look you don't need p y d to fight against isis we can do this with the national elements in syria we can do it with the turkish army ok we don't want we don't need to have u.s. troops on the ground but you can provide air support ok and we can take care of isis they did on the island let me let me just go back to your job. for this

operation you have a right to make your border area safe from terrorism to force militant kurdish groups p y v y p g out of this so-called terror corridor all but very few countries are buying this long and if the job of a presidential spokesman is to sell the president's line you're not having much success. you look at the us ambassador james jeffrey the state department's point man on syria he said turkey launched this operation despite our objections undermining the isis campaign risking endangering and displacing civilians destroying civilian infrastructure and threatening the security of the area that's not much of an accolade there's none of that happen actually they claim he doesn't know what he's talking about well that's not what he told us in our meetings i've had many meetings with jim he's a good friend and of course as professionals we work on this issues together he may be a good friend percy now great now and none of those ranges are to actually came true if you look at they said that there will be a huge humanitarian crisis with the turkish military operation it didn't happen

people went back to their homes they said that kurds will be attacked no kurds were attacked except p y d y p g terrorists on the ground they said christian minorities will be oppressed or killed none of that happened in fact it was our military that these are just reasons why only unchurched a plane well i now there of worship being peacefully in russell i'm i'm talking about the army and church there so all the things that you know that have aisle a sions that they said would happen and have happened happened where where exactly give me some examples ambassador jeffrey interest and bastard jeffrey again gave you examples he said we would say that turkish supported syrian opposition forces who were under general turkish command in at least one instance did carry out a war crime and we demanded an explanation you claimed you claimed a number of investigations were under way trying to human rights abuses so you're asking me about something you already know. many investigations by the way and by

whom and number of investigation by our military have been launched how many mr kalin how many some of them are operational details i would rather not you can tell me if there are any now writes probably us all to find out as a good journalist you don't know and you don't find a blanket excuses in this look if you look at the civilian casualties in the syrian war. can you guess how many people how many civilians have died in the operation in iraq. make a guess we're not talking about no you're talking about syria those are talking about syrian civilians severely talking about writers human rights violations around 3000 civilian people died in iraq or. the city of raka was destroyed level to the ground around a 1000 people civilians were killed in the resort and in mosul again in the fight against isis if you're going to talk about all this i think we should be very candid and clear about this issue and it will be 99 to 11 your hours and your very

early way about your rights investing young $9.00 to $11.00 series very heroes in the fight against isis in mosul along how many civilians have been killed in our operation this coming you don't have a great record on investigating human rights violations do you so why should things be different now if in 2016 the un committee against torture cited credible reports of turkish law enforcement officials in gauging in torture and ill treatment of detainees the committee said it was concerned at the reported impunity enjoyed by those who committed such acts impunity doesn't suggest you are doing much investigation into those things does it we have a 0 tolerance policy towards torture we have in fact clear our prisons our judicial system for torture we've had this in the past but what you're referring to is what happened right after the bloody coup attempt on july 15th 2016 when the fetter terrorists carried out it could tempt in turkey killing 2. 151 people

a dozen white suiter torture people i didn't say there is torture i'm not saying this to justify it i'm referring to those who made those claims who were actually behind this quick temper killing 251 people injuring about 1200 people they had the intent to kill the elected president of turkey the reports mr kalin go on and on 2 years ago the ngo freedom from torture said that from 2011 to 2016 all the years where most of the one in the k.p. have been in power turkey was one of the top 10 countries for referrals after torture and in 2016 you moved into the top 5 no known investigations were carried on a number of investigations have been carried laminated we have how many and by whom you want to say 203040. well i can give you what you call detail i'd like the truth i will i think i will be had like literally exact numbers i don't have the reports of it and i'll be happy to send them to you in 2017 the council of europe's

commissioner for human rights said the problem of effective investigations and impunity of security forces is a very longstanding and entrenched problem in turkey so you're not fooling anyone you know is talk of if you're not it isn't is fooling anyone we are taking care of our own national security when you face this kind of credible national security threats against the k.k.k. or from the p.k. care from isis terrorists from fetter terrorists those terrorist organizations in the west only recognizes one of them that is isis because it attacks western interests but the others since they are only in turkey and attacking turkey the elected government security forces or the civilians nobody wants to talk about it mr cohen you sent in last month you sent in your syrian proxy forces into the northeast corridor of the country knowing that in all likelihood they would torture abuse and possibly murder people because that's exactly what they had done in the

northern city of afrin which you seized in $28.00 teams isn't it not at all in august that year amnesty international reported you gave free rein to syrian groups armed by you to commit serious human rights abuses in africa that didn't happen in our friend there was looting enough and they were penalized but it's the same group of the by the way you're talking about the syrians themselves fighting for their own freedom for their own country against the brutality of this regime to which the western world has not turned a blind eye we're the only ones actually taking care of millions of refugees and the syrians in both turkey and on the syrian side is the same syrian national army which the americans supported or plumbers to support 5 years ago 6 years ago they changed their policy in the course of time it's the same syrian people who fought against the assad forces in the in the perry. when they fought against assad and isis in that area everybody applauded them what's the situation when it came to when they came to p y the y p g held areas suddenly the air changed they said well

there are terrorists they are jihadists they are the same people who fought in that everybody is thankful to turkey for keeping things under control in italy because we've prevented another maybe i don't see him and i got a should see much gratitude coming your way at the moment are basically taking care of about 7000000 syrian refugees for the last 45 years we are preventing another major humanitarian crisis and other migration for from there i know they're doing more than anyone i know that like we do you know what the situation in africa is now it's very it's very calm no there is no very calm ok there is no ice is there is no p.y.t. there much of what you are saying you know. you say journalists and you say it is very accountable in syria you said regional their numbers at about half the reason they are upset about af and they lost a big chunk of land if you ask the origin of kurdish people living enough and this is about 400001 way in africa and ask them how they are being treated now

compared to how they were treated under p. why the y.p. to control 2 months ago the un human when i asked around that question to months ago the un human rights of this reported the situation in africa contrary to your nice assurances remained dire armed factions that carved up the province into zones of influence there was repeated kidnappings torture extortion and assassination that some legacy you left behind doesn't it no look condi have created our assurance p y d y p g terrorists which are the marxist leninist leftist groups which is supported by all the freedom loving liberal western countries including the trumpet mr ration which is really mind boggling for me that the united states will stop. a marxist leninist organization in syria in the name of fighting against isis and what's baffling to them is that you have your forces on the ground according to william

roebuck who's the top state department official in northern syria your forces have committed abuses on the ground war crimes and ethnic cleansing you said on november the 7th turkey's military operations spearheaded by armed islamist groups on its payroll represents an intention laced effort at ethnic cleansing it was he added an unprovoked military operation that at the time he spoke november 7th had killed some 200 civilians and left over 100000 people newly displaced and homeless we heard this many times from the centcom people within the trumpet ministration which actually never again you just themselves are reconciled with the fact that we are taking this action against their so-called allies you want them to actually. you want them to recognize they are reconciling themselves with the p k k terrorist network in syria giving them piece of land and then while at the same time talking about serious territorial integrity or ethnic balance in syria how can you explain

the fact that you favor one ethnic group which is linked to a peak a terrorist network the so-called kurds against all the arab non kurdish non-peak. the arabs the christians the turkoman all the others serious they are coming to us telling us the oppression that they are living under under device mr callan we've talked about some of the criticism of your actions especially from our allies but what you really want to stamp out is criticism at home isn't it on october the 10th your broadcast regulator. in the turkish media not to say anything critical about your action in turkey that there would be as they put it is 0 tolerance of any broadcasting that might negatively impact the morale and motivation of soldiers or may. they mislead citizens through incomplete falsified or partial information that serves the aims of terror in other words you put it anything that the government

doesn't like and you're in deep trouble so much for press freedom while you all kinds of freedom that media outlets in turkey day and all of your a lot of them you've closed down on the internet you have all kinds of different views attacking the president every single day attacking me and us that's why in the 1st week of the offensive you closed down 839 social media accounts for sharing as you put it criminal content 186 people were taken in that they were chance for indicating $24.00 remanded in every trial the terrorist propaganda you would in a library proof of that have you you wouldn't allow that in the u.k. when you do it in the west it's for public order when we do it it's suppression since the 2016 coup or 10180 media outlets have been forcibly closed over 220000 websites blocked according to the ngo article 19 in september said scores of journalists remain in jail or and the travel bans hardly a proud record for you is it the air but you are dealing with news outlets that is

spreading propaganda for the terrorists network when you are dealing with a terrorist that carried out that attempt on july 15th yes they had the media empire nothing out of the media empire in turkey you fling around reason and set of evil i'm talking ring around these accusation xperia remind me actually to spread their propaganda now unfortunately they have a free reign free right here in western capitals they're all over the place according to the germany's own committee for the protection of the constitution the presence of the p.k. k. in germany alone i have the full report here that's in german i'm sure our german callers of all know about this you won't mind if we now go through it this is not our report by the way this is germany's on on official report in fact when president bush than meyer came to turkey when he was foreign minister about 2 years . writing our pro president presented this report to him as well said look this is your own report ok god doesn't take us any further no but it sounds as if what it says is that you're giving a free a right to pick

a care in germany why do you do that and as far as they are not doing that in turkey as far as the west is concerned this was a report from a british parliamentary committee back in 2017 there is a fundamental intolerance of alternative narratives in turkey with the government broadly suppressing discrediting or punishing those who contradict its accounts of sensitive events look there are journalists who do their job. they are free to report have critical comment nobody has any problem with that there are those who spread propaganda who use actually id courts the press courts but function as p.k. operatives who are and those are people who use object to extreme conditions in your prison like i made shit for instance from jim hooley a newspaper reader he were reported to have been d.n.d. evil and actually solitary resilin fine by the good and is in the 1st place he was put in prison by the glenister so that makes it all right now the non-elected members know what i am saying this is this is the extent of the power that these

people had in turkey we are clearing them from the media out there from the judiciary from the police for delivering your cleaning you don't have anything against him no no i'm talking about the effect of people that had in fact the judiciary did the security forces in their hands and now we are for clearing them most of the things that you're referring to in fact is a reference to this people i'm referring also to what the e.u. commission in its latest report called the backsliding on human rights backsliding in a number of areas affecting human rights it says your accession negotiations have affectively come to a standstill it's time to end this isn't it because you have no intention of meeting the conditions for membership that have been set down by the have you ever promised to be a full member in the european union many many many times and then you violated human rights left right isn't and we've been made waiting since 6263 surely we got an official date in 2004 and 5 it was our president president edwin actually who put

so much political capital into this and we were presented with a package of 36 chapters no candidate member was ever presented with this many chapters and then what happened 15 years later open only one chapter close only one chapter i'm not even here saying well you say you're the victim here you like to play the victim the victim of what bias against turkey i don't see myself as a victim i'm just stake. the facts look there is an enlargement process or 50 in europe and there are creations to be met they want they don't want to and you don't need spend the cal and there you go may go she asian fatigue in turkey also how long will it take another century for turkey to be a full member that's up to you and isn't it one thing our vibe likely dishes that could happen or look most of those you know they are just talking about for example in eastern mediterranean today is related to cyprus if you remember what happened in 2004 with the anon referendum for the unification of the island the turkish side

said yes to greeks said no and what happened afterwards in fact it's only what you were this. turkish air morris that you talk so much of is this part of the anti turkish chorus that you often talk about i'm talking about what are you what are you saying here fail or can see you saying the e.u. is biased. in the in the e.u. after the effort under what they did instead of actually. challenging the greek side on this issue they accepted the greek side as a full member and that violated another key principle you don't bring in a bilateral territorial dispute into the e.u. they did exactly that and now for the last 1415 years we've been dealing with these issues but my point is that it's either cyprus or human rights issues or security or turkey it's one thing after another that is presented as a as an excuse or an obstacle for turkey's e.u. membership ok so you know what you know what the conditions on where you are going to be we're not calling a day then we will go there are where they call it

a day you want to do it they can they are welcome to do it we are still committed to joining the e.u. as a full member nothing short of a full member mr cowen let's just look briefly in the time we have left purges the people who were after the coup attempt in 26 i think i would answer the people who were fired from their jobs many thousands of them had to be cleared later on. because the charges against them were nonsense weren't the thousands of people who were falsely implicated in the coup attempt had to be installed because the allegations against the war for us not that they had the chance to defend themselves before they were filed this is lie from the your a.k.p. in the are we are get your birds you have no i don't that isn't your light or the western side of berlin right now does it matter what on the eastern side you know how many people were fired from their jobs when the unification happened we're not talking about germany i'm not talking about you have to see i know you don't want

to talk about this you have to be needed in france that irish thing you know know any country about your own issues you want to provide the context when it comes to turkey you deny me the right to state the context i'm asking the audience here how many people were fired from their jobs when the unification happened in 1000 this is give you the number 500000 people so you want workers these are soldiers didn't start with journalists these are diplomats you can play the what about game and it's very fashionable no i'm a while it isn't there you say what about what about being a somewhat oh i don't know what about china or what happened in your trying to talk about your persian searing the question the very same time it is the simple fact thousands of people were fired and humiliated and their reputations were drawn through the market before finally they were able to clear their names they because this is a judicial fiat for this chap but look what happened in the meantime they have applied those who were cleared in fact are free either to go or to apply for their jobs and that's still

a process under way of course i'm not saying that everything is perfect there there is still room for improvement there are still thinks that we need to do to make sure that this people you know have their full rights but you have to see this in context your party has sat back and watch countless people's lives ruined by you through allegations that the that turned out to be false there is a judicial process. oh yes you lie eventually eventually may there was 'd there were the 4 for this 500 cares about the collateral damage they were of with his 500000 people who were fired from doing jobs during the unification because they were suspected of working for such. the german eastern german intelligence thank you suspect we're talking about turkey we're talking about be talking about today in turkey and i think kerry god's military coup and i thank you very much for being on call for our car pleasure thank you so much thank you.

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