commemorations going on in the city of dresden you just heard the german president francois to steinmeyer addressing specially invited guests from britain's prince edward has joined the guests. as you see the president is being given a standing ovation as he comes down and shakes hands with some of the special by trees. 75 years ago on this day that fire bombing of the city of dresden started for 3 relentless days. thousands of people lost their lives and since then there's always been a historically debate whether that attack was justified. with me on the studio i have john beric the analyst and joining me now from dresden is

our correspondent kate beatty let me start with you john it was a wide ranging speech the president touched on many aspects historical as well as contemporary but what 1st of 4 do you make of the tone of what he said. when i would pick others in particular 2 points in the speech which receive particular poor applause also from the audience. the 1st one was when he talked about the events of dresden these appalling events of the destruction just being instrumental ised being misused by people for their own political agenda that was a very cynically very ill to swipe at the far right in germany the far right also makes up the main opposition party in germany at the d. and only this week we had a senior member of that party. refute the number of of deaths in the dresden

bombing now this is a question of the number of people who died which has been settled by a commission of historians they decided beyond reasonable doubt after 6 years of examining all the evidence that it was no more than 25000 people now this german politician teano compiler said he had the feeling that it was probably more like a 100000. this is questionable in itself of course with a politician or indeed a journalist myself has the right to have a feeling that it might be a $100000.00 after historians have established after the meticulous scrutiny of the evidence that it was no more than 24000 the number in itself doesn't seem important but the problem is that the far right using these kind of inflationary figures know what very well that they are doing that they themselves may not be sympathizers with neo nazis i would. make that allegation they know very well that that feeds into the neo nazi agenda to minimize what happened in auschwitz and

the genocide of the jews by inflating what happened in france to so very much a bit of focus on the misappropriation of history and he represents this head on front by this time let me not join kit pretty good you are standing in dresden and they have the burden the historical meant but no historical memory is the strongest how do you think from my speech will resonate with the people addressed in. well i think starting my speech just now very much reflects the reflected story the general feeling of the public here in dresden now laser on this evening you might already be able to see behind me here the setting up now for a human chain which is going to be built by around $10000.00 people who want to join hands in unity and a sign of solidarity i'm duty against all kinds of hatred and violence and i think

that really is what the the key message of not only star in my speech today but the hearts of the understanding of today's commemorations among most residents of course as you were talking about just now is john there is a minority of people who have asked still trying to instrumental i.z.'s commemorations and instrumental eyes to how the bombing of dresden is remembered but at the heart of it i think today is very much a day to learn from the past and have a look to it how that can be applied to days more contemporary issues to arms again the rise of the far right particularly here in eastern parts of germany and we heard earlier from demand of brazil need talked about this human chain that you were referring to for the last 10 years you said that's become a symbol of peace and a symbol of everything against hatred and violence that is returning to you non

john funk the german president talked a lot about the pain and agony the people of dresden suffered but he put this event very much in the context of the 2nd world war and germany's rule in starting that war and inflicting suffering on other countries that's right i thought this was a really interesting aspect of the speech that he lifted it out of the specific national context of the pain the very real pain of the people. at that time in 145 and put it in the context as you say of the 2nd world war there were 6 used as human. unlike hamburg where 4 times the number of people died in the most terrible incendiary bomb attacks there was another city injured in germany back comes to mind which she also mentioned a charming little city of no military significance whatsoever which was her razed to the ground and it is important to see it as as as as as as real as the pain of the people of dresden was and the memories are it's important to see that the

100000 people who died for example in tokyo in bombings and the 1000000 people in tokyo made homeless in 1905 are part of the lessons that we must learn from the 2nd world war before we continue our conversation let's have a listen to a little bit of what from this time i had to say. please know i don't praise the citizens of dresden today we have gathered here to remember them and the firebombing. 25 years ago commemorates the victims of the bombing war in this city and in germany and in our view from for and remember all the victims of genocide and violence. coming to your kid listening to what drunk by this time i had said again he did not want to belittle the suffering will offer what the people of dresden went through as it would be a mockery if not much to belittle that but he again the context that germany itself

also inflicted a lot of suffering. exactly and i think it was very important that he highlighted that as you've been discussing already the ways in which the the history of the dresden bombing has been instrumental lies and continues to be by the fall right here in germany and it was interesting as well that he talked about the how a cultural center like dresden was destroyed saying that it wasn't on the night of the 13th of february 945 that this cultural gem was indeed to the ground that destruction in fact began as the nazis came to power and that cultural destruction came not only to dresden but to germany with the beginnings of the book burnings for example just shortly after the nazis came to power in 1933. i didn't get into you know john from but just on my also meant mentioned commentry quite

often in history it's taught that firebombing off dresden was churchill's the revenge for the bombing of cauldron tree by the germans what did you make of that connection how he use this connection to you talking terms of reconciliation well 1st of all there is a there is a very real tie between coventry and dresden but it's one of reconciliation and as early as 956 the people of coventry reached out to the people of dresden they saw a certain parallel because the medieval cathedral of coventry had been destroyed by bombs in 1940 and i think it's partly because of that very positive development between the 2 cities that in the popular imagination it's often they've often been linked to the president would retaliate but i don't think that there is an economic direct evidence that turns to was that although the pilots did refer to the general bombing strategic bombing of jim cities as the common taste of

cities they have an ironic with a reference to coventry. ok now there ceremonies are continuing in the call to apologise to all the cultural founders and dress sense and let's take a listen because the dressed in philharmonic orchestra is playing again and they're playing a piece the choreo on. and the conductor is a modicum of skill let's have a listen to the music. i am.

ok.

goes for the kristen philharmonic orchestra conductor marty cannot stay and they just played the korea long overture but good pick boto from. the german president franco steinmeyer sitting there applauding along with a number of invited guests including prince edward of britain. let me do an. analyst john barrick and in resident we have good brady let me start with you again john so you have still lost my voice. it's hardly surprising you've been doing instead of work you're commenting on this but then you know there's

a lot of talk about the suffering of preston but the president also talked about a lot of other cities suffering as well as the suffering inflicted by germany and other european cities but what did he say about german good that's a very instinctual and. because. a famous german president has gotten bite sector and in a very famous now famous speech he made a distinction important distinction between guilt. for the nazi crimes which. was individual and historic responsibility which the nation would accept and that's been a kind of a kind of shiver this that the the the german german politicians in the political discourse about the war have repeated again and again fronts both this time i thought it was quite interesting in the speech he tries to i think i'm not mistaken twice referred explicitly to german guilt. and this at a time and i think this is perhaps perhaps why he did it i venture to interpret it

there's a lot of mudslinging going on about who was responsible what part of the 2nd world war but a mere putin has recently angered the polls for example by suggesting. that it was an it was necessary to invade for russia to invade poland and that the poles were in fact partly responsible for causing the 2nd world war that of course is it's something that outrages the poles and. as the israeli government has recently suggested that the poles were partly responsible for the holocaust went along with it it was very significant that in this context france voters trying my whom serve as a very experienced foreign minister under served in 2 cabinets that he expressly referred to german guilt and i think that that's probably it's because. it's an invitation 1st of all to start from a sense of where one has made mistakes in the past in order to combat the threats

to democracy that we face now and before we continue our conversation john let's just take a listen have a listen to what president from my had to say and he took his importance on the importance of memory. that we consider. of the fire not forgotten. lives and their fates. inscribed in our collective memory. and literally now to a cave biddy was standing in a dresden gate for the people of dresden particularly memory is extremely important at the same time we have to remind ourselves that dresden has been the scene off marches on this anniversary by neil nazis who've been describing what they call a funeral in march how do you think president trying to steinmeyer as remarks will resonate with them. well of course.

comas during his speech today many of them go against exactly what the fall right into achieves they've tried over the last few decades and increasingly so in the last few years to instrumental lies the history of the jest and bombing and also to instrumentalists for their propaganda today even in town just across the river from me here a.s.d. the far right if the posse were actually holding an intimation stand about the history of the dresden bombing when as well you were talking about earlier with john they themselves or some members of politicians that belonging to the far right have previously manipulated the numbers of casualties and victims of the dresden bombing themselves and some of them have also called for and ends to germany's atonement for the crimes of the 2nd world war and during the nazi regime but of course the majority of dresden. is of course of

a very very different opinion and is hoping today to unite to make us sign a stance of solidarity against all kinds of hatred and violence and as you can already see here the sun is setting and in just about half an hour's time we're expecting a few 1000 people to join hands right here along the river elbe or going back over to the other side of town and to create a human chain and president. is also expected to participate in that and that's something that's been taking place for 10 years now and that's very much a sign of solidarity not only here in dresden is supposed to be really a message from germany a sign that germany has learned from past atrocities and that it's still trying to apply those lessons to the days contemporary issues that's why because the president didn't just focus on the suffering of dresden but he also focused on what lessons have been learned from that experience what was his message there.

well his message very much can be summed up i think in one. sentence he said when he mentioned that peace should not be taken for granted of course europe or a widely in europe we have been able to enjoy a peaceful existence here for the past 70 years now but said that that continues to be fraud trial and of course we have also seen in recent years the rise of the far right particularly here in eastern germany something that once upon a time many people thought was unthinkable that that would simply not ever happen again in germany and just this week of course really bringing things back to contemporary issues which shine why him so it was addressed and we saw for the 1st time the very controversial decision not far from here in the state of thuringia is to see some cooperation between germany's conservative party with the far right

a.f.c. which of course has turned the political landscape here in germany into turmoil and has certainly left both politics and society continuing to do some very deep soul searching here in germany so of course again. again bringing back home the message make sure that we learn from the lessons of past atrocities but also to not take for granted everything that has been achieved so far in the last 75 is and of course from putting very much the focus also in his speech on reconciliation and cole and the importance of dialogue let's have a quick listen to what he had to say about that. this is why i want to say anyone who still can't. dress in against those killed in auschwitz anyone who tries this is downplaying your memory. card and him or anyone who falsifies historical facts against i'm going to judgment. we must stand up to them as democrats we must

contradict. thanks. so join us we had huge applause for that warning against the falsifying of facts again perhaps a reference to the far right and das of this and specifically i think 2 to the opposition party in which is in german parliament. the main opposition party it's very troubling that people are prepared to do to. interpret misinterpret deliberately misinterpret historical facts for current political agendas and i think and he made a very i think a very clear statement about the necessity for each and every person he said in their own i'm paraphrasing but on their own in their own walk of life to stand up for democracy remind me incidentally 137 i remember really i mean i read about in

1987 the italian philosopher but benedetta cratchit was asked by the new york times i think it was to write an article on the threat to democracy and he said he was angry about it he refused to write it he said that's a mature logical question you know that we're going to rain whether i should take an umbrella or not that's not what democracy about is about democracy is about going outside and stopping the rain because it simply depends on individual people each of us deciding we want to live in a democratic state that's right good because it doesn't from blood to steinmeyer came up very strongly and said we need to stand for democracy that all arise is the city of dresden politically or with this anniversary this space speciality of this year 75 years since the allied bombing of the city. well of course it is only a minority which does intend at least on saturday to instrumental eyes the

commemorations predominantly taking place today but also with some smaller commemorations over the next couple of days and that's the far right but again it is only a minority but of course as in many of these cases they seem to sometimes have the loudest voice goes we are intended to expecting sorry to see a demonstration from the far right on saturday here in dresden that calling that a column atia march of mourning and that's been something that's happened on this memorial day for many many years now and but of course again as i mentioned it is the majority of course that want to set a signals a day send out a signal to the world from dresden on behalf of germany that germany is learning from its lessons of from past atrocities right kate brady standing on the banks of the river elba with the cityscape often dressed in behind you thank you very much for that and john before i leave you for your final comment on what. i had to say

on this anniversary. for just one little anecdote which is almost but on the side but it's such a positive thing that i'd like to emphasize that he drew attention to the fact that british people have contributed to rebuilding of the famous fallen character and that it's not simply a symbol of suffering it's a symbol of reconciliation absolutely and he also did say one sentence that there's more that unites us than divides us john barry understands you very much for talking to us on the 75th.

when others give up. natalia keeps on fighting. many russian mothers are in similar situations. their sons have run afoul of the country's arbitrary justice her only hope is protest. and she's not

a law. abiding citizen of a bad guy next on g w a. carefully . don't suit she needs to be a good. match. discover. the be. subscribe to the documentary on.

climate change. sustainability. environmental projects. globalization. biodiversity species on sufficient exploitation the quality. human rights displacement. the global impact of local actually. 3000. hello and a very warm welcome indeed to focus on europe with me peter craven and we begin in vladimir putin's russia a russia that tolerates little in the way of protest and those who do have the courage to take part in demonstrations such as this rally last summer are

increasingly branded as extremists who then face the full force of the law.