every journey begins with the 1st step and every language but the 1st word american eagle. is in germany to learn german. and 3. d. w. e learning course nikos for german media. this was a world operation that it was not authorized we still don't know what happened to the remains of just. how is that possible we don't have a history of sort of 16 months of gone by since a saudi journalist jamal khashoggi was killed by agents of his own state in its downfall but the issue doesn't go away my guest this week here at the munich security conference is. the saudi minister of state for foreign affairs why are there still so many unanswered questions about the murder and why the massive

crackdown on human rights activists inside saudi arabia. welcome to complain so nice to be here it's around 16 months since agents of your state to murder jamal khashoggi and cold blood in your consulate in istanbul what's striking in retrospect is that 3 days later your crown prince mohammed told the turkish authorities to search the consulate and added we have nothing to hide that remarkable statement because in fact the last 16 months have been full of aspects of this case that you have right from the start on going on hiding this is not the truth i don't believe so we have said that this was a rogue operation that it was not authorized we have investigated the people who are part of this operation try. just were leveled against 11 of them 5 of them were

facing the death penalty the trial began in january the trial was attended by representatives of the permanent 5 countries and on the security council plus 3 people would like to talk i'd like to talk about the trial but but but straight away after the event there's just take that expensive offer from the crown prince to such a concert it was another 10 days before turkish investigators were actually allowed into the building why so long if you have nothing to hide out the technical person but i understand that there are situations where countries have to agree on the mechanics and the modalities of how you want people to enter sovereign territory you have to agree on the equipment you have to agree on the scope and you have to agree no country would allow another country full access to a diplomatic facility that is certain happened the un special rapporteur color mother didn't see it that way she found credible evidence pointing to the crime scene as having been thoroughly even forensically clean these indicate she said the saudi investigation was not carried out in good faith and that it may amount to obstruct with just that was kind of i did not have

a mandate for this she relied on sources from the newspapers and leaks to the media she did not she didn't have any experts in forensics and other issues but it's a safe assumption isn't it you clean up the crime scene immediately you're hiding something up a safe assumption the issue with agnes cull a virus you go to have report based on those from fords and then she accused before even started look at her record when it comes to surgery before a number of years and how disparaging a whole negative she has been a good subject well a lot of people are disparaging these days about saudi arabia because we are human rights record i take this i take exception with this so grevious made great progress in terms of human rights and reverse could make great progress in terms of reform in terms of empowering women in terms of empowering youth in terms of ocean society in terms of diversifying our economy in terms of reducing our reliance on oil so do a bit is moving very very quickly in a very positive direction under the guidance and direction of the companies will come on. to the details of that and i want to take you up on that but the list of

unanswered questions about the murder itself is extensive in that we still don't know what happened to the remains of mr kushner how is that possible when you allegedly have all the criminals involved behind bars how do you know how do you not know they have said that they had a local collaborator who disposed of the body. i don't know i mean didn't you interesting those hours i am not the public prosecutor we do foreign policy we don't know criminal investigations you have console you are behind as larry king of the state telling you what we did and what we did is what every other country did the united states said in iraq not everybody to us i am talking but the u.s. committed outrageous crimes did the president authorize it and it was scrutiny of his the commander sitting where you're being scrutinized yes and what they did is they investigated they held people accountable they put in place mechanisms to prevent that from happening that's what governments who was this so-called cooperate so you know took away the body i don't want the remaining i don't know we

don't have a history of murdering our citizens but if you are sorry as you claim to be over this incident why haven't you found the this information is a matter of urgency and told with the question of his family because that would be a humanitarian gesture we have sent a number of legal documents to the turkish authorities asking for information we have not received anything except one you haven't told us either who you think masterminded this murder surely the trial must have shown up annoyance of that was it was a mistake people exceeded their authorities and this happened the people who committed of agreed did not do it under the authority of the president or the vice president or the secretary of defense the u.s. government isn't buying your version of events is that the cia has let it be known in briefings that it has medium to high confidence that it was your crown prince mahmud been someone who ordered the killing we don't see it this way the president and the secretary of state have said this is not the case the largest intelligence agency in the world unmatched resources you tell me they're talking nonsense i can

only tell you what the u.s. president who's the commander in chief of the u.s. armed forces and what the secretary of state have said publicly. but if it was nonsense how do you explain the phone conversation intercepted by u.s. by agencies in 2017 in which the crown prince told a top aide he'd use a bullet all question he didn't stop his criticism i don't know anything about this and i can't comment about something that appears in newspapers based on the sources even if those anonymous sources are attributed to intelligence agencies the un acknowledges that it's been an important step this trial towards accountability but says it's failed to meet procedural and substantive standards so are being helped the holy grail and those who in the us said those of the report from the from the special rapporteur the special muslim is biased special about or why because excluded agree with exceeded her authority the special of what or says the trial was secret how can a trial be secret when we have representatives from the 5 permanent members of the security council plus turkey going to trial who's held behind closed doors the

identity of those charged has not been released nor the identity of those facing the death penalty why the decision of opening up a trial or not rests with the judge and if the judge does not want to have a courtroom that looks like a circuit it's his prerogative to close the trial now the representative from the other countries who are there have access to all the proceedings and they know the names of the people why were they told not to speak about it because we want to make sure that when the trial is over and charges were leveled the punishment is announced and people can see it you cannot accuse somebody who turns out to be innocent and then in the end they lose face society shall assume they've been sentenced to death not all of them 5 of them holding so still one of them have been investigated and i believe 10 or 11 have been charged 5 have been sentenced to death why can't we know their names you're not going to show us the verdict on them because the trial is not over there's going to be an appeal and there and it has to

be reviewed by the supreme court this is how awkward systems work is that let's deal with the final explanation that you and others in. the government would have us believe that it was some other rogue operation this team of high level operatives some of whom had in the past travelled with the crown prince decided they just had to go and kill was the question of the day they went out on a limb like that i believe they want to talk to him and they want to convince him to come back to service something went terribly wrong and an altercation happened and he was murdered they went with an autopsy expert who had a bomb soon and when i don't know about that i don't know about everybody else and i don't know where those are but he says i don't know about that the idea with that is that this was authorized as ridiculous this was a rogue operation that happened that should not have happened we're going to be paying a great price for it it's a terrible tragedy and the issue is we deal with it from legal perspective jim our family has come out and said we have confidence in the saudi judicial system there

is a crime really that's most affected by this person say this that in saudi arabia but but but but your but your agents didn't bother to hide what they did didn't bother to disguise their actions at all one of them according to transcripts of their bug conversation was talking into a telephone immediately after the murder saying tell you was the thing is done it's done it's not always turns out this is not correct i don't believe the says correct i don't know this is this was from leaks i haven't seen that the intercepts of the turks had but if turkey had all of this information why didn't they provided to the market shortly before he went to the consulate if they believe this is the case if you are insisting that it's a broker operation answer me one question why were the people who were involved that didn't sneak in by night and sneak out again they came in private jets diplomatic passports checking into they left a trail everywhere they left a trail everywhere so by monitoring him. assuming they weren't authorized to do it

they were signing their own death was what rogue that's what rogue operatives would do that that's why they're facing a number of them are facing the death penalty and others are facing like i why why would they do that what's the motive for writing your own death sentence i don't know i think they went into talk to him they went in to try to convince him to come back something went terribly wrong and he was killed and they are being on trial now and a number of them are facing the death of another actually is that they fully intended to kill him otherwise why do you take it all obviously you're hoping to assume why do you have to assume the worst when it comes to saudi arabia operations gone wrong this is a pretty house thing to how good is assuming the worst worst how grave was pretty bad and they got a lot of bad publicity for it but we are not talking about a month i said mr ford and we're dealing with it and we're putting people on trial and we will be punishing them one of the key questions that keeps returning is

whether the crown prince created an environment which is allowed his agents to behave in the way they did in istanbul you would tell me that's not true wouldn't you of course not the company says the driving force behind changes her view because the driving force behind empowering women and men in saudi arabia youth has the driving force behind economic opening and economic reform and of increasing repression against those who dare think and act in an independent fashion i disagree with that history driving force behind entertainment and recreation and he said driving course behind technology and investments in technology he's the driving force for setting up to be the leading country in the 21st century mr in march 27th in u.s. officials with access to classified intelligence reports told the new york times that your crown prince had authorized a secret campaign to silence dissenters that included surveillance kidnapping. tension torture so-called rapid intervention team i'm not going to comment on news

reports attributed to anonymous sources some came from saudi officials as well anonymous sources seems there was a standing order to saudi intelligence to bring dissidents phone animist sources i cannot comment on anonymous sources so about one of those who was brought home now off our she'd a poet in 2018 he was on a trip to kuwait stopped at the airport forcibly returned to serbia arabia i don't have the details of this he was held incommunicado for 12 months later out of anything i don't have the details on this case no saudi citizen is actually safe if they speak out against your government correct people come and see the king in his majesty the crown prince and his majesty communicate with them they told them what they think they express criticism they provide ideas they provide suggestions this is what surgery be has been for centuries amnesty international said last year that virtually all saudi arabian human rights defenders and independent voices male and

female are behind bars serving lengthy sentences handed down by your specialized criminal court most were prosecuted they said for their peaceful human rights work and calls for reforms i take issue with other countries on a major path to reform and anybody who calls for reform is part of that process why would we have reforms in saudi arabia and that could such people who call for the point there are other issues that people have been charged with and have been sentenced with and i believe that the reports that we get another very accurate really and so when you do and if you have any issue with the terms of the legal issues you should really address them to the public prosecution last year they also quoted a saudi lawyer i g. who has represented many defendants before your specialized criminal court he said on the record the presumption of innocence is not part of the saudi arabian judicial system pledging words of that i disagree with as has. and the presumption

is always innocent until proven guilty when he says the opposite he has defended many people before you are caught unlike the positions of some of the ngos who assume that guilty before without presuming that it's innocent we are guilty before the case was over so everybody has missed everybody who reports this massive crackdown of the what massive crackdown on grip on the dissidents people we have you know rights groups the international human rights groups they're all wrong i will give only example i will write i will give you an example and you tell me what the supply in the 1990 s. we had radical preachers who were calling for jihad and. you just want to take us in all different directions you moved us from the structure so allow me to finish i want to point out the hypocrisy in the 1990 s. we were criticized for having radical preachers inside we've been preaching hate. when we detained them we'll criticized for taking away their freedom of speech it's

a damned if you do damned if you do situation if you don't situation do you want them to preach hate or do you want them to stop you can't have it both ways that's the park which is that perfect mr algebra in march last year 36 countries you know this issued a joint statement expressing particular concern about your use of cold terror legislation against individuals peacefully exercising their rights and freedom 36 countries germany france u.k. spain italy australia and they also misjudge the situation in your country yet you seem to be badly misunderstood by some of the most expert biggest experts in the world yes they are really not about happened i don't think they know so little that they shouldn't be need to be more educated we have been fighting terrorists as credible is it i mean you can sit here and say that but that's insulting to their internal he says have laws and there is a line between freedom of expression and incitement and murder and we have laws in

our country we have a court system and people have to obey the laws and the courts and sundry but are the ones who are adjudicate these cases and nobody else was to push but to all the n.g.o.s and all the hidden bite of obsessions and virtually every human rights activist is sitting in jail snottery. why would they make it up do they make up things the songs we do not know the way things are what did they last may we are charged with detaining women for asking for the right to drive that's not true why would you detain somebody who asking for a rate that the king all particulars why would you because chinese do those as you did because that's not the charge because you do they may not be the judge but that's a very it wasn't it no that's the wrong perception they were involved with foreign governments trying to recruit people and sensitive positions in court or to taint sensitive documents to be used by our enemies that's called espionage and the prosecution when the trials are over one percent the evidence you can call it what

you libel you saying they were actually a threat to the saudis it seems to be yes that's the way that is that's what the prosecution is saying i don't have access to the courts i can only go by what the entity in saudi arabia that's triage was filing charges and that's charged with prosecuting people in terms of trials and that's their position and they have been public about it last month mr you address the european parliament in brussels and you strongly objected to the scrutiny and criticism that has come your way from any peace if you object to that so much why sign up to international agreements which involve other countries monitoring your compliance or do you just. except it only when it's in your favor to me and monitoring the compliance monitoring compliance with agreements of so and such us such as. torture for instance we were you're supposed to have outlawed torture but there are millions accusations that torture

is practiced and they can bring the new iris they can bring the charges to a quarters had people the court would review would have to be investigated you tell the parliament stop criticizing our causes we are a sovereign nation that refuses to be pattern yes member of the united nations you are there for you scrutiny we do not criticize other countries legal systems who will not allow other countries to criticize our legal system if you don't want that kind of attention don't go abroad kidnapping your own people forcing them to go back to your country this is they have the legal system the legal process the battle of the state to do when they promise to subhumans down here a beer does not. accept people criticizing our legal system we have not criticized the u.k. or france or germany or sweden where you're perfectly at liberty to we don't because you want to live this is your system we have not criticized how people in europe treat minorities or immigrants we have not criticized europe or it's

horrific past when it came to massive crimes against humanity we don't do this. and we will not accept criticism of our legal system by others but if you go on doing these things how can you expect your expensive charm offensive to call on anything but deaf ears all the money you paid for p.r. companies expensive b r companies in washington d.c. where you were ambassador falls on deaf ears there isn't that we don't have an expensive charm offensive we have public relations companies like other countries too and the amounts are not outrageous to amounts of normal we present our case to people and we have people come and visit and we gauge with people in dialogue for that they can see what so if you have us about we have seen foreign investment and surgery bago up we have seen foreign visitors so typical up we have seen foreign entrepreneurs come to suddenly appear to set up shop but we all are not buying your message i'm totally with you protecting human rights some telling you this is these are the facts. there is unanimity among the human rights organizations around the

world but you are in the middle of a massive repression of human who disagree with that you know you can disagree with they think it's their business we disagree with that our people our economy is doing well our country is attracting foreigners hoping to do with you susan if saudi arabia were so bad nobody would come why would companies invest go they're always going to do business who always come i wish while you know that i would entrepreneurs come and set up shop and so because they can make money that's it's nothing it's nothing to do well you see when i disagree busy i see nothing i'm doing i think your mind is made up and you don't want to see the facts come to said you can see so you talk you told the parliament stop lecturing and start working with us we have a court system the court system is and by that we don't allow anyone to question just what you just what you said to me how do you suggest europe works with you when you slam the door in its face like that. in butts and slander start lecturing and start with yes we will not accept lectures so lecture so that the church

telling you the results a lecture based on you the results of their research is a lecture based on lack of information of the saudi legal system and how it works it's a lecture based on information that they obtained either through hearsay or through inaccurate sources government agencies which once 36 countries that expressed their concern to you i thought i'd give you the details then there were other a large number of countries that offered a resolution counter to the us and those 36 countries were absolutely wrong well absolutely mistaken how could they get it so wrong we've been going to your country for years talking to your people for years it beggars belief that you can put up this smokescreen and expect that viewpoint going to believe it and coming to bear you can believe whatever you want but sad rape is a country that is on a path of reform broadening our economy will diversifying our economy from oil will open it up the areas for investment we're empowering nobody worries about him and

nobody was the president of the community we are creating opportunity for our young people 70 percent of saudis under the age of 70 or 30 they have hopes dreams and ambitions and the government's objective is to provide them with the ability to be a lie so who gives you keeps you keep saying this my question is why should you are work with a country that completely trashes its values and rights that are central to europe's because they believe that that assessment is wrong and then where would the starting point be i believe that that is wrong 60 years ago we didn't have schools for girls today 55 percent of women of college students of them. 80 years ago life expectancy was her dream was 37 years old thank you i ask where where do you see it it's where you serve today it's in the in the mid seventy's at the level of you when you start when in the view of major countries around the world new human rights organizations you have so little respect for the sick human right i don't i don't buy groceries don't mind i don't buy that assessment you spoke at the

parliament you told them your view they're not buying it just another day of i'm not buying their view either major countries are not buying their view either so when they start there's no starting point if this is a look at if you look at education if you look at health care if you look at clay to explain it we're looking if you look human at all you can really use you don't use all human rights if you look at media where people who want to use health care to them if they're in jail for years without charges have we have more than 20000000 saudis are they all in jail nobody said they were in jail you're telling me they're all in jail i think i said human rights. activists are in jail you see them and act as activists we don't as as been said hardly any of the we don't see the massacre any of them are not behind with all due respect i stick to national we have a court system we have a public prosecution that part charges against them the courts will adjudicate

these cases and if they're innocent it would be released and if they are guilty they were punished it's a suppose that and with all due respect amnesty international their opinion that's very sorry that the trials are inherently unfair it doesn't matter because it informs public opinion and public opinion around the world as you know is not exactly trusting what goes on in saudi arabia do you think people to trust i disremember rights organizations who give accurate information about every country in the world or a state that has everything to lose if it is mitt to these human rights abuses i disagree with those willingness are going to believe i think that we have great relations with them with a large number of countries we have the presidency of the g 20 we're doing a lot of major projects and said we were doing a lot of reforms that are greater we are improving the standard of living of our people we're becoming part of the global so what are you saying you don't care about what people think about your human were actually we don't have a problem with human rights we have a legal system we have laws that people have to behave if they don't obey those

laws they will be charges filed against them and they would have to face the courts very simple in the united kingdom the same thing would happen if somebody violates the law what do you do do i come to you and tell you this person was engaged in human rights when they killed somebody or when they spied for somebody or when they were not talking and go you know it's a kingdom you're not talking you would like to talk about you know about every country except saudi arabia it's not true i'm giving an example because i believe you have not been fair in your views of such behavior and in the positions your my views these are the views that didn't get in the extent in the questions that you've articulated. and i wanted to be able to show you that this is this universal issue here when you have a law the last few pay it if you don't like the law change it ok but as long as it's on the books you have to pay it hold your thought thank you very much for being a fool for. a

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. this is the news live from berlin more and more countries are confirming new cases all think coronavirus authorities around the globe are implementing containment measures to stop the spread of the virus and many areas residents of being asked to stay home and lodge a public appearance of being canceled also coming up. hopes for peace in afghanistan taliban and u.s. negotiate to sign an agreement that could pave the way to anything nearly 2 decades of conflict. and the base what we handed out at the 70th birthday in internet.