sort of i guess mandate looking for new perspectives real to help you know really replace the break with the campaign doing things differently. come to the place where we reflect on society. today don't miss our highlights w. program. w dot com highlights. the war is ugly more than 17000 civilians killed and injured since 2050 i would not give up the future of my children and their children so you can sleep at night they have to come and puff piece year after year the war in yemen goes on with no apparent end in sight but who's really trying to stop it my guest this week here in munich is the country's foreign minister mohammad abdullah

a dreamy of the many thousands of civilian casualties and the enormous human suffering all been for nothing. all of them have to me welcome colvin so thank you for having me you have much to say about the violence that the who sees the human rights violations the plans they've committed but you appear to have almost nothing to say about the shocking casualties and bombings by the saudi led coalition that's killed many thousands of your civilians why is there well that's not accurate actually you know. the war is ugly i'm not even going to sugarcoat that for you or for anyone a lot of civilians are dead yes this is this is shocking of and you hear the news and you know it's a big campaign but there's

a difference between having human shields like that who these or some mistakes that happen in every conflict and every campaign and the suit is no different but you know that human rights are being massively violated by coalition forces but to look the other way which means going to a certain extent your complicity in the social well i'm not sure what you mean by looking the other way we have this giant which is an investigation body that has investigated over 170 claims we know there's some mistakes we prove that there are some mistakes some of the more i want to talk about the international loads of but but since march 2015 according to human rights watch become aleutian has conducted numerous indiscriminate and disproportionate strikes killing thousands of civilians hitting civilians structures in violation of the laws of war but you turn away and you left out how horrible let me put it and record this is horrible killing any civilians in yemen is horrible we want to end this war killing even one life let

alone a child which happened even by coalition let me finish so why go on with indiscriminate and disproportionate attack it ok this is a big campaign right and there are some mistakes and we approve of we know that some business more than some when zuck i think the u.n. need to investigate more and we know it's you know this thousands and thousands of circling and that if there's an airstrike a mistake everybody's reporting a part and they should report a pilot we should hear about it but there's a lot of mistakes that the host is and i'm not here to talk about the who he's under coalitions having mistakes i want in this war i'm from san am from those territories my family says that we're sick of it and we need to end it and just blaming now the coalition for him for all these will not end the war we need to. and did yes we did we want to stop the killing and understand the world but why do so many civilians have to die for the sake of saving a chaotic divided government such as yours which barely has legitimacy with the

wintry let's start with legitimate interests which atomised is not populated i'm from a different country than the president but the president is the last elected president 6 and a half 1000000 people elected our president 2012 for 2 years where he will to use his mandate is ground 0 is law until tomorrow to use it and tell we have a democratic system that we allow this to elect a new president who is going to give us and decides what a democratic system is exactly exactly to get many people in and who would do that those who would like that ok i'm not going to allow you or anyone to tell me you have to choose this leader to get you out of this week ok let me if we choose a leader that and we need to get out of it we don't want to be there for life that's why we actually had the revolution back in 2011 minister the worst thing about the bombings is that in all these years they have proved absolutely futile you have won nothing and the who through is remain unchanged so the catastrophic injuries and deaths among the civilian population of beings like you haven't spent

a change in the way the coalition has been conducting this war there's no more campaign to actually targets and other cities they've been sometimes some of the escalations with the who it is and the sudanese renard involve them and then it didn't happen because we know we need to end this what are we need to talk how to end this war we you know everything that happens in yemen is a reaction to the who things actions we could be and someone one week if they just do the right thing and there i think is not hard to do and why don't we ask them when we actually answer that question more than 17000 civilians killed and injured since 2015 the lives were sacrificed for a stalemate proxy war that created the world's largest humanitarian disaster you really believe your government is worth that one. human eye on our future is worth the fighting not the behavior without you can go the future without crying or i could resign even today not tomorrow you know what if you know the who thiis and pheno their ideology if you know that they want to have this under medicaid who the

as a figure nobody could get that buffer zone and then whatever popular government they want we will not accept that i will not give up the future of my children and their children so you can sleep better at night you know it is my country my people are dead they are dying every day you expect me to just to saddle for any peace that would explode in our face any time in the future no i'm not going to consider that with these i'm from the territories i am or the we don't approve what they do and they have to come and part peace soon and we have to actually send the right signals to do that they have these illusions of power that you and others would feed in but as i say they're called action has to go where the coalition will end if we end the war but not before that if they end if the coalition ends yemen would descend into more chaos it's not about honestly the government or the president how these things empowers imo still in yemen from those that you talk about the investigations that have gone on into what you term euphemistically mistakes in

most cases you're not going to find the perpetrators and bring them to justice are you we know that 3 attacks on civilians several years ago are being referred by investigators for possible prosecution just 3 out of countless bombing strikes that have repeatedly this civilian infrastructure shingles or. change or let me put it in a should check should chump change it look i let me put it for the record any civilians are that those responsible wherever they are they should be hold accountable they should be but they will be and you know it factors previous investigations don't encourage up when we do have open investigations and when we know what we were some for show up a story that's what mistaken and i say come in many many years to get. started on. we could tell us about what you think the facts i mean yes civilians are dead this is horrible we do the investigations but we need peace we need peace i mean we're talking about having peace and it's not easy you know the thing is you want to get

away from a subject no investigation because they did not let me let me just be a national story just between these international justice unfortunately sometimes don't come in hand in hand we have to have peace and then we'd have transitional justice afterwards to get all of this done you're the one who's refusing talks with the who through that's what you think of it that's what you've said now your ministry of information said it no no no i represent the foreign policy feel that we need to park soon however i'm not going to let the horses get off the hook and who they that we went to sweden and we sung to the we came back one year they haven't done anything to prove it should i just let them go off the hook and then move on and now they have to be responsible not destroying your country piece by piece child by piece of in the last generation by on for a structure that is no road and continue 'd with this humanitarian disaster one is a documented actually in disaster if you think or case and i report let me let me just jump to that why do you think that these are holding it hostage we're open to any for internal flights they're refusing because they want to create this seizure

this aggression against them and to hold on to power which they don't have who gave them the right to speak and for and behalf of me on behalf of millions if you have a nice and they use or power and they have this illusion of taking us back before 62 will the minister you've dug in your heels the u.n. is seeking unconditional talks unconditional talks between you and the movies you've dug in your to your heels and rejected all the talk as didn't i didn't who says so january the 28th the minister of information said we categorically reject any talk about negotiations x. what we said is i am willing to go now to peace or if we're going to talk peace however we need to have the right conditions to god are ok you have one son can do . i don't want to go for part b. so they could have a good report for the student council i want to go and part peace to make sustainable peace for yemen and if there are these would sign degrees sign and act like what they did in sweden and come back and not implement we should actually

hold them accountable for implementing something i don't let you go on going then because you won't sit down and no that is not your setting that is not correct i'm not going to be met and you're ignoring the advice of these are not innovations we're just we're just saying they have to implement what this side is that it's really hard to ask we cannot just go on by them signing our course and not implementing anything we you know what we did back in 2014 we had a peace deal just a few days after the coup 2 days after the call it was the partnership and peace agreement you know what they agreed to be agreed to partnerships but the security measures they never talked about it why aren't you talking about that i mean it is there you want me to go again about what you're responsible for most i understand there are no angels in war but according to international investigators your forces have nothing to be proud of last year the un panel of experts on yemen accused all sides in the war of committing a reflective uses from arbitrary killings to rape and torture with impunity so not

only have you not won this war you also lost any claims over my moral ground haven't you i'm not a mind going to claim were angels nobody has we just need to end the 2 i am i can tell you it's a long way from being in this government government especially a to feel says we're not actually deterring forcibly disappeared scores of people well we have no respect for the rule of law we do we do but sometimes it's really hard to control everything i can tell you but it's not systematic killing of a yemeni people like you want to show it to be you know you keep just talking about 2 sides have you been to yemen have you been to santa have you been to i didn't have you been to for didn't matter if you listen to the people themselves and that you can't just brush everything as as as you know share us in the divide as a rich. country's fighting a poor country that is not the way to end this war and we know there's some atrocities happened i mean we are a few you know a few miles from from just that we know what history is like why continue to block

a vital aid goods and fuel from coming into it as a measure is good this is a good question we're not actually doing so what we did is we're trying to block the oil shipments to come from iran to the who the social memo it's also got it wrong have been the latest report they say that basically the saudi led coalition's restriction on imports have worsened the humanitarian then they were not sure illimitable you why if you were you know what we said as her data was open we were a few kilometers from the port the humanitarian came in the un says you can't do this we said fine let's go to sweden and we need to change the status quo one year is not a habit let me go back to the question the questions that we had actually holding her did i say this is not true we have reports from the un para doesn't say that that you're probably not going to mention that shipments of iranian all you're coming with counterfeit documents today of these were free you know we said by the crew 75 let's just check the papers here saying let me just give me just finish and then i'll hear you we just said let's just check the papers the papers came the who

his hold hostage and asked every mercians not to submit the papers so they could get to phone the shipments so who's holding that and then we can see that we never go there right now is that minutes that human rights watch is saying the coalition has delayed and diverted fuel tankers closed critical ports and stopped goods from entering controlled seaport what is the usual thing i just finished fuel needed to power generators to hospitals and pump water to homes has also how in stock how do you justify preventing the harder if you ask but when i was justifying preventing anything in the past 3 months have been more fuel than that and that in the previous 3 months or so you checked the statistics and we're talking more than 2 years ago the u.n. high commissioner for human rights big bird. thieu and the goofy rebels to let splays of food and medicine into the country all parties to the conflict so the panel of experts on yemen have obstructed the distribution of humanitarian assistance the high commissioner begged you under 2 thirds to have mercy on the

people of yet you know far as this gone when you actually know in order to show mercy on your own people we give you something you know what i don't like something about the un is that they call everyone when they know exactly who's making the problem let me just give you an example a few days ago they had a meeting and brussel above the charter is that the who these are doing to the humanitarian field you know their want to tax your taxpayers' money that comes to yemen so they could steal it and not justified when it went to a bias against you is this $1.00 of those if not more there's one to see in a neutral party you don't want to say ok i am willing to receive any criticism but don't say all the parties tell me what i did wrong and i'll fix it but you have to point fingers also at the truth is point a finger at me and also point forward at that with you you cannot just paragraph there go of bad point to change your living is are they going to be always clear to them now i know what i do and we are trying to struggle and as i said you audio

government affiliated forces arbitrarily deterring forcibly disappeared schools of people when you say mistakes happen in war they fancy excuse no i mean we can't i mean give me specifics and we would actually fix them i'm not saying don't worry you haven't read the report but i have read their own experts yes yes and there are plenty of there is a very serious repudiates it was done so by as the very 1st reports so it is not you have kids and they were being fired or quit we're talking about different everybody who violates human rights accuses the ideas of that but mostly by it's just be more specific so we can know what we talk about we have an expert group which is the un. panel according to that that is actually following this recounted that movies are not even met if get the sun up we believe whatever they said. and whatever that is not bias we will check if we have mistakes we do there's another really experts to come from the human rights council the 1st really the 1st report was so biased it just took exactly from the pentagon propaganda of the who thing

and we looked the no we said you can't just have and factual checks you have to check them before you reported and then you can just say you know hello everyone let me give you some facts 20100 strokes on the island by the coalition forces since the war began an average of 12 attacks a day these attacks have blown up hospitals school buses markets mosques farms bridges factories where the detention centers coalition air strikes the u.n. human rights commissioner said in 2017 coalition airstrikes continue to be the leading cause of child casualties as well as overall civilian casualties so he didn't know what he was talking about it's not like we leave you i said mission of human rights they have no idea what they're saying about have been and i told you before but you have to be a better leader than miss you have to be clear on the report now is a policy of you can't using civilian infrastructure are the pilots that incompetent that they can't tell the difference to him are fed up in and we've. had habits that

we can then that we would continued years later that if you are half your life you will point out for what they are doing we need to make peace we don't want to continue this war and we have to do it a few just weeks ago a few days ago they are struck at hospitals it's not right but we don't want just to dwell on it we want to know what is now required to make peace and i know what is required to make peace we need to crack that illusions talk at ducking is required or it is not talking over this is going to end as a negotiating table otherwise surely it won't be changed and the sooner it gets there the better and at the moment you know what is and preventing those iranian you know men like calling the movies no one needs to be done we debated it for $100.00 days in kuwait and you know what happened at the end. changed their mind you know why because they know that they would have a better thing if they don't sign unfortunately the international community especially some parties sending the wrong thing and that maybe if you just hold on to take in yemen hostage you would get

a bit of the that's what happened and that's what we need to close the last year as well as fighting the goofy rebels who became embroiled in another civil war this time with forces in the south in the us the transitional council so not only are you failing to beat the who feeds you can't even keep your own side together and you cannot ignore the great that it is about that if it was not a great record now let me talk about that as a precaution what happened is another complication that is not welcome of course you know and very want to cede the determine to success on the comp of complication what it is it won't of it's really hard to discuss something without really prompted those just enough where this is actually happening if the s.t.c. our brothers and the f.c.c. really really represent all southrons it would be an easy problem to solve the s.t.c. have a problem with southrons themselves not with the s.c. theatre s.t.c. is just units outside the control of the government that have been beaten up with

another of m. and s. and then eventually they decided in august to oust the government from our 2nd capital that cannot happen and we made it clear to the un again they were driven out for and it was only the saudis that patched together in agree i agree you called the riyadh agreement because that's not working out there is when it is not working because there's some intransigence and we believe this it would use would be a on all sides and the s.t.c. site and we could prove it we have for tax we have the metrics that actually explains what we did but you know we have to pass that you've given away a lot to get the 3 agreement term to you've basically given these control over major decisions that your government has taken you say no according to the carnegie middle east center several articles of the riyadh agreement emphasize saudi supervision. of this new government both vary and the u.a.e. will continue to intervene as they wish in new york in turmoil there as i was there a price for your dream and that is not completely out of the price of the riyadh agreement is to get united so we can pick it back and make peace you know you can

just have everything perfection is not really a possible way out in yemen and it is actually the enemy of good and that's what we want at the sun our center for strategic studies says that your president hired the s.t.c. the southern transitional council have accepted that all major government actions be coordinated by saudi arabia so basically you saw you know that is not true i am the pumper sort of what you think the foreign minister of yemen and i say a word i believe it is for the right to the yemenis now with the sudanese want to know what the immoralities one network anyone wants and that's proven yes rian brilliant we go back to add a bit we speak our minds and it is our responsibility and decisions we have in the reality greenman conceded to have some way in actually dealing with the south sudanese now that instead of them what are these and we need peace we don't want to fight a war in the northern wall in the south and we know that the s.c.c.s.

do not represent all the south the whole southron and that that's an issue too and they have to know that they cannot just continue being outside the form of the government if we if this government is dissolved you would have more chaos in yemen then you would think it is not as easy as you think it is that last year the saudis actually expelled one of your government advisors to the because work it was your size criticized coalitional irishness in the sun i don't know is a diplomat with me he actually came and did something against protocol it's not because he still has to do anything they don't expel him his chairman ended and we did it from the office because he actually vitalism of the cause of the diplomatic corps now you can't just politicize everything liked. this i don't think it is right i don't know if i stay for the whole matter how do you know he's a diplomat who actually didn't actually respect the rules of law and conquer about the arabia when one but he could go back to yemen he could be anywhere else we

could go back to arabia why not but not as a diplomat it ended. talk to me about corruption go on in your state because it's not enough that there's a huge war the humanitarian disaster seems that the state money is now being siphoned off in corruption scopes involving the central bokeh words that are going on at the central bank i know where the report which you're referring to now we have from the u.n. panel of experts just yes of course and that's what you're trying to guess you know is talking about and some paragraph that's how it is about you know i spoke to the prime minister about it we've sacked 2 governors already our books are open anderson youngest coming to i them to actually check the books of the central bank it's open where we are so the boat having been audited for 6 years i asked the prime minister of this report why don't you just let the pound on check the books you know what he said didn't ask to go and check now anderson young and come in to check if we have some mistakes if we have some corruption charges we will be ready to act upon them we're transparent common check them send them in the team you want

to do so we need to end this war we don't want to continue yes there's some corruption i'm not going to deny it but we need to end it and we're willing to crack any cases if you if you just fight them i mean just point them at us and we will do so you keep saying you want to in this war do you really believe that a single unitary state is going to emerge from the turbot destruction that you and the other combatants of inflicting on the usa something i think we as yemenis need to know what's the difference between and means to prove something and the goal you know i'm talking about the massive divisions in your ambition to get to that the goal is to raise up the standards of living of the yemeni people unfortunately some camps would actually create the means switches unity central government that is as actually their goal which is wrong you know so we gave the central government to go it didn't work and the national dialogue everyone including the who thinks that our friends decided on a federal system let's just give it

a chance let's just give this for the summit chances see. not all of it quite a lot of it no wives are lauded for all of this said so you know the central no longer the last go along and i took the divisions on your interest rates and our center they actually quoted have actually sung paul in the south and not all of them more than 50 percent even 60 percent want to stay in some form of for drug government not not everyone in the south want to secede and even if they don't you have a civil war within a civil war that's quite an achievement isn't that it's not a civil war than a civil war there were so few skirmishes back in the south and it's over now skirmishes that kicked you out of aden yes you know we went through other asylum issues and yes but now it's all the disco who was in the other no prime minister just came from adam yesterday and he's gone back now i mean it's not like the whole south is turning against the government in check the south showed what had been violent and the hedge i mean it is not the case you know best you see need to know that they have to cooperate to be part of this government they don't they don't

have the backing of all the south africans those in the south opposed them more than those in the new survey need to know they have to cooperate they are dead set on well known as session who said so they did know that is not correct ask how do as the others who signed the riyadh agreement i mean it is not correct they want to stay and they said so the southron issue for them not what we say would come after we finish the war with the who thinks and then we can discuss it that's what they say so you know just the facts. oh peace and you will over and world com and we wanted to come but we're not just going to have any peace with the who is you know i'm not going to give the future of a few men to those who believe that they could just you know. and have this defined way to all of us like what they do in iraq we're not going to accept that there is need to know that they could share power that they could not get to do it with guns facing and you know pointing in our face more hollowed out on the that's very much

being more thank you so much for this particular discussion.

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