i even got white hairs that. language tell me about this gets me and clinical question maybe 2 in truck would say you want to know their story influence their fighting and reliable information for margaret's. beijing denounces an unprecedented escalation of tension after the u.s. orders the closure of the chinese consulate in houston washington says the move is to protect american intellectual property rights but he sat but how much is it also to do with november's u.s. presidential election i'm phil gayle in berlin and this is the day. there's been this long challenge the chinese communist party stealing intellectual

property we actually talked about this is not just american problem. for us to stop the smear and slander on cyber security issues. hardworking people all across europe in america by the chinese communist party china is a resolute defender of cyber security we have consistently opposed competent all kinds of cyber attacks on cyber crime scene setting up clear expert ations for how the chinese communist party is going to be. also on the day the trumpet ministration defense the deployment of federal officers against protesters despite objections from local leaders these police officers are not stormtroopers they are not the gestapo as some have described them that description is offensive it's hyperbolic and it's dishonest. on the latest escalation of tensions between the world's 2 largest economies the united states has ordered china to close its consulate in houston texas the u.s.

state department said this was necessary to protect american intellectual property beijing described the move as a political provocation and the serious violation of international hours after the order was issued firefighters were called to the culture the building. bins on fire inside the courtyard at the chinese consulate in houston witnesses said they could smell paper being burned the 1st whiff of a bigger story because firefighters arrived chinese state media started reporting the u.s. had ordered the consulate to be closed. it's a political provocation unilaterally launched by the u.s. side which seriously violates international law basic norms governing international relations and the bilateral consular agreements between china and the u.s. china strongly condemn such an outrageous move. the choice or you talked to

the in a statement the u.s. state department said it would not tolerate violations of our sovereignty and intimidation of our people the u.s. directive comes a day after 2 chinese nationals were charged with hacking said to be working as spies they're accused among other things of trying to steal coronavirus vaccine research. campaign targeted intellectual property and confidential business information held by the private sector including covert 19 related treatment testing and vaccines. back in houston this was his closest firefighters could get to the consulate they weren't allowed in chinese officials have 72 hours to get out with china threatening to close u.s. consulates in response. to fire now you have been protests out of the u.s. china relationship is smoldering as much as ever. let's get more on this from james

i'm john lewis he's a senior vice president at the u.s. think tank the center for strategic and international studies he's also a director of the technology policy program joins us from washington welcome to t.w. it was kind of increasing tensions between the u.s. and china that includes trade wars namecalling and demands for bans on tech companies where disclosing a consulate rate. it's not unusual measure there in response to massive espionage it's been done in past but it really is at the top of the charts so major move forward i think u.s. do you do you believe there has been massive espionage. oh without a doubt it started decades ago in fact it started as soon as china connected to the internet so there's strong strong evidence that china engages in espionage in

a violation of u.s. national sovereignty and it's for commercial and technological purposes the evidence is overwhelming now whether this was the right move that is subject to debate but again we've seen reagan did it in the cold war obama did it with the russians and the election interference so. at the top of the scale a major major move but not unprecedented so if this is been going on for decades why do this now. i think part of it is so of course that has people suspect something to do with the election which is that it's always good to look tough. against china now because no one likes china and the united states anymore it's sad but it's true it's partially because of the. efforts so we the great each others found the chinese trying to break in to our research labs to.

deal vaccine information i think that helped this is below longstanding campaign for the trumpet ministration but obviously it started in 2015 when obama attempted to negotiate an agreement with the chinese for them to stop commercial espionage he got an agreement by as soon as the office the chinese stopped observing it and why who stood. i don't know i think it probably was not a center of espionage it would be unusual to say that it may have been considered expendable you know it's not chicago it's not new york it's not washington so it sends the message i think that was the primary intent here to send a message to the chinese that the u.s. will not tolerate this behavior and do we presume that this is a uniquely chinese problem all we the the west the british the americans whoever

we at this as well that we indulging in. intellectual property theft know so i've talked with the hand of germany's b. and b. and d. i've talked with french british nordic intelligence officials none of them engage in this kind of commercial and squeamishness kind of technological theft it's uniquely chinese they've built their economy on it and that's part of why it's such a big problem is that china needs to still western technology in order to grow and so most western countries whether it's japan or australia or germany or france in the u.k. they all share this problem with us and i just wonder about the presumption that they would be very good spies if you asked them are you stating stuff and they just said yes. ah that would be true but. what can i say perhaps i have a good relationship with them all and some of it too is that you know what chinese

technology would do steal we've gone through this exercise of asking ourselves if we stole technology who would be good but to us the law requires that we still follow u.s. law in this area it requires us to give it to all the companies that are involved it's a major problem for us in that we simply aren't structured nor is germany nor is any western country to engage in rampant economic espionage sure people might do a little on trade or they might do a little on finance and i.m.f. but nobody steals this kind of industrial secret the way the chinese do and in part it's not a 2 way street because there isn't that much chinese technology we're stealing that sounds arrogant and i apologize but that's the truth thank you for joining us there james under news from the center for strategic and international studies. thank you . well let's stay in the united states in the city of

portland which has seen further clashes between protesters and federal offices sent by president trump to and on t.v. he says in protest that but the feds methods and behavior including concealing their identities of spot criticism and complaints. clashes between demonstrators and federal law enforcement officers in major american cities are ongoing one side claims to fight against what it describes as police brutality the other to restore law and order the situation has become increasingly politicized people say protesters these people are advocates these are people that hate our country. this is how the u.s. president explains sending in federal agents. we have federal officers on our streets further escalating tensions and causing harm to portlanders right now.

the deployment of these federal officers directly to the white house and operate in total anonymity valid name takes or other visual identification is highly controversial a log least. to conceal their identity is just a step toward a secret america has always been proud of never having had a federal. insurer or its force historically it is usually the republicans who want to limit the influence of the federal government but when it comes to protesters everything seems to be turned around these days the words and actions from president trump and the department of homeland security and shown it this is an attack on our democracy. the escalation of tensions in chicago. missing from been known as he's sending federal agents there also this is worse

than afghanistan by far this is worse than anything anyone's ever seen all run by the same liberal democrats and you know what a button got in that would be true for the country the whole country would go to hell with protests not expected to end anytime soon and president trump appearing to capitalize politically to do this in the united states puts even further. washington post reporter nick mere office been covering the base story and joins me on the line from the u.s. that kept you out welcome nick from the outside a president trump appears to have a point you've got several u.s. cities experiencing what appears to be violent disorder the local authorities seem unable to control. that's true we have seen an increase in gun violence in chicago new york several other cities as well as the. standoff

in portland at times violent between protesters and federal agents protecting the federal courthouse but at the same time i think the president who is failing in the polls and facing both a pandemic and an economic crisis is looking for a new campaign theme and he is seizing on this as something he thinks he can run on do you think that's what this is he's looking for enemy to beat. i think that he is looking to change the headlines and and find some territory on which he thinks he can he can separate himself from biden and gain. an issue where he thinks he will end up looking better. and that's why you heard him in the white house on monday basically saying that the country will quote go to hell biden is elected that he's the strong man who will restore law and order and that if the democrats

win we'll see portland and every american city the president has also announced what he called a federal forces into chicago and other cities so this is nowhere near over. that's right and one of the one of the interesting things to observe here has been that. you know homeland security officials who are responding in portland have been going going out of their way to decide that portland is a kind of unique situation in which they are protecting a federal courthouse that is the target of protesters where as this expanded operation in chicago and other cities is very much about trying to tamp down the rise in gun violence and so even though they are trying to keep these things separate the president sees it as part of the same broader chaos and you know the push to defund the police that came out of the racial justice mobilization after

joy george what's killing so. federal offices where they're being deployed from. well in portland you have a federal courthouse that is typically protected by a very you know they basically just security guards and they were quickly you know kind of outnumbered by protesters and so homeland security officials have sent in. agents from tactical teams from the border patrol from. the you know gratian enforcement arm ice as well as u.s. marshals from the department of justice who typically protect the justice system so you have a group of different federal agents there who are now engaging on a nightly basis with with these protesters. who are who are surrounding the courthouse and you know lobbing objects at it and fireworks and that kind of thing where we've been looking at file pictures as you've been speaking and they do look

quite scary and tell us about the wall of moments. well you know one of the one of the things that is sort of the you know one thing that you see almost every protest when when. authorities kind of escalate with a show of force there's often a counter response and. with the increased federal deployment we saw more you know larger numbers of peaceful protesters coming out. kind of to to protect others including this group of moms you know where yellow and lock arms and. you know are there kind of on the front lines particularly earlier in the evening before the more rowdy stuff starts up and briefly these protests started out as the racism demonstrations are they still about that. well that's a great question i think what we've seen is that you know that federal courthouse

in portland which is which is you know always been kind of. a symbolic you know target for protesters and early on in the in the protest after george floyd's killing you know was kind of an amorphous symbol of injustice has now become kind of a proxy for the president himself and trump's you know view of american democracy and you know it's really spun up into something much bigger and it really given the protests a very a very you know clear firm symbol of his administration right there in their city ok good talking to you thank you for joining us now from the washington post i think. a lot of european governments are facing the same problem was to do with their citizens including women and children who left to join the so-called islamic state of syria and iraq many are now living in kurdish

controlled refugee camps their status in limbo european countries are reluctant to bring them home prefer in them to face trial in the region for human rights groups say government should trade their citizens and deal with them domestically especially the most vulnerable the biggest group of french citizens including 400 women and children correspondent lisa has been to meet on 12 was fighting to bring he's a daughter and grandson back to france yes not to use his real name. one ton is standing his ground the former trade unionist has defended workers' rights has a life but when 5 years ago his 26 year old daughter suddenly left to join isis in iraq he had dropped bottom. it was my house came tumbling down on top of me. she had always been a good student and we didn't see this thing coming at all our family is ignore

stake but she converted to islam without telling us what i told to do you know what you're getting yourself into and who these people are that you're joining he. last year his daughter was captured by the kurds and brought to the whole camp he kept in touch with her until she and her baby born in syria then his 5 weeks ago on one is today showing his face on camera for the 1st time he says he has nothing left to lose. i don't know exactly what she did but i'm not the judge she should be held accountable for her actions and she has the right to a fair trial like everyone else that's the difference between a democracy and a dictatorship where creating a 2nd going trying to move there and what about my grandson 18 months old he's responsible for nothing more. the french government has only repatch treated about 30 children from the council and refuses to bring back women and men. are

proceeding according to international law people should be judged in a country where they are alleged to have committed crimes we take back the young children if and when the mother agrees that we should take charge of them. but this lawyer representing the families of 14 women in the camps says that approach actually goes against international law. kurdistan doesn't exist so there are no judges anti-s. people are being arbitrarily detained plus their crimes started in front of it i think they are accused of joining a terrorist organization good movement should be judged here and these children are in mortal danger 300 of them died as all whole and 29000 jews to the living conditions france has an obligation to protect them but since leaving them there to rob. france is not the only country reluctant to repatriate its citizens to

join the so-called islamic state about 1000 western europeans are still being held in syria and iraq only a few of them have been brought back. together with other families on to on has gone to court to force the government to bring back his daughter and grandson he believes repatriation is actually in the government's own interests donya got the wrong song during a recent attack on one camp and the kurds just open the gates and some women escape to join i ask so leaving these people in the cabs is a lot more dangerous than bringing them back we always wonder if they managed to get away there is a real risk they might commit more attacks here in france or you know he's determined not to lose hope so that one day he can finally meet his grandson. so how dangerous is it to repatriate these formit you harvest and their supporters to stand trial on the face at home it is from the terrorism an organized crime unit

or university college london department of security in crime science is research has focused on the psychology of radicalization welcome to day w. other your research is involved taking brain scans of radicalised you had this so what if you learned about the minds of people who leave to join the so-called islamic state. i learned a couple of things i mean one thing we've learned is that people who are at an early stage of radicalization haven't fully adopted the ideology yet for them experiencing social exclusion which income in a variety of different forms online and offline pushes them further towards i but when it comes to repatriation of foreign fighters the more relevant finding us to do with the more highly better people that we have scam these are people who are supporters of al qaeda associates who we found with them when they were highly willing to fight knife for their beliefs part of their brain associated with deliberative reasoning and some of that reflection was d.

activity and that's a problem because those functions of reflection and deliberative reasoning are necessary for the radicalisation for persuasion for negotiation for any attempt to really alter someone's behavior so the question becomes how do we activate those areas of the brain how do you get someone to reflect and review reduce their willingness to engage in violence well their research showed that actually you don't need to change someone's ideology you don't actually need to be radicalized although that is ideal and you would hope that eventually happens in the short run as long as you can get the community around to convince them that they don't support the right even this is the norm rather the friends and family members that can be sufficient to reactivate those areas of the brain and to reduce their willingness to engage it's ok so much to pick out of there let's let's start with this idea of deliberately area associated with deliberative reasoning being switched off does that it does that effectively mean that once you've been

radicalised you're not thinking about what you're doing you're just doing it. well once you're really willing to act you're just kind of doing it once in high willingness to fight and die and the truth is people who are radicalize not all of their values have the same willingness to fight and die some values are of lower priority to those values and areas of the brain already active and can only begin to negotiate on those issues for someone really to know these people on a case by case level to understand what values are particularly important for them in order to know what technique you need to employ in order to alter their behavior so here's the thing about that that sounds like it requires quite intensive work so if you're talking about governments repopulating people having them stand trial and presumably find them guilty and sending them to jail this does not sound like a pathway where governments will be willing to throw lots and lots of money at helping these individuals in that way yeah i mean it has to be

a case by case situation if you really want to see a long term change and we also have to face the fact that some people just won't be able to deal radicalized and we've seen that in a lot of cases at the very least we may try to disengage them that's a more realistic goal which means basically their ideology has changed but they're no longer willing to engage in violence or the movement that they still believe in is usually because they've now found an alternative pathway to purpose or other priorities in their life they have other communities they decide to have a family there are things and they just disengage the truth is all over europe right now there are people who are disengaged who still believe in this ideology of white nationalism and are doing nothing about it so it sounds like even if they are repopulated tried sent to prison and then released we have no idea what's going on inside their heads and whether or not but still a danger to the wider community. there's things that we can do that reduce that

risk that the research has shown in terms of rehabilitation programs in terms of bringing the community together to provide an alternative community helping people find alternative pathways to purpose and even finding credible messengers who can help them rethink about some of their ideology as well as mental health services to deal with p.t.s.d. or any other medical issues so there are things we can do to reduce that risk but under no circumstance of my saying that this is a guarantee solution make sure that we will never have the reason for any of these the fascinating good to talk to thank you for joining us in the face how made from university college london my pleasure. well the day's out almost done but the conversation continues online you can join us on twitter either at the w.'s where you can follow me. get to use a hash tag the day i was watching and have a good. boy

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this is d.w. news live from berlin president trump says he will send a surge of federal agents into the u.s. since this is as the crackdown is needed to combat a rise in violent crime from local mazza law enforcement had the presence of federal agents in cities like portland oregon he's actually increasing tension also korea firefighters a call to china's consulate in houston texas as washington orders its closure i think concerns over u.s. intellectual property so weren't diplomats burning sensitive.